Best of 2025: Shannon Watts, FIRED UP

0:28We always recommend Shopify. Hello and welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today we're talking to Shannon Watts. She is the founder of Moms Demand Action, the largest grassroots group fighting gun violence in the U.S. Shannon has been named one of Time's 100 Most Influential People, a Forbes 50 over 50 changemaker, and a Glamour Woman of the Year. During the 2024 election, Shannon organized the largest Zoom gathering in history, mobilizing over 200 ,000 voters and raising over$11 million in support of the Kamala Harris campaign.

1:08Helping to redefine what's possible when audacious women unite to drive change, Shannon writes regularly about culture, politics, and women's issues for her sub-stack, Playing With Fire, and outlets like The Washington Post, Elle, Time, and The 19th. Today, we're going to talk about Shannon's new book, an instant bestseller, Fired Up, How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at Any Age. Welcome, Shannon. Thank you for having me. So let's start with a quote from the very beginning of the book. You say, so many women, especially when they reach midlife, wake up one day and realize they're living lives they didn't want or don't recognize.

1:47And you speak with authority on this topic because this was once you. Yeah, my book opens with a scene from me in my late 30s where I'm sitting in an emergency room and I'm covered from head to toe in eczema. And I could not get it to go away until I finally go to this specialist and he looks at me and says, how much stress are you under? And kind of won't let me look away. and I describe having a mini breakdown really in his office and realizing that I was at a crossroads in my life, that I had made a lot of wrong turns and wrong choices and I was either going to have to keep living that way or I was going to have to live differently.

2:31And after that appointment, I couldn't afford a therapist. I really couldn't confide in my husband because our marriage was a big part of the issue. And I journaled my way forward. word. I wrote every day and made it a habit, ended up leaving my marriage, leaving my career, really upending my life and eventually remarrying. And it was that journey that helped me figure out what I talk about in this book as the formula for living on fire. I had been on autopilot. I had been living a life that was not authentic to me or true to me. And then I saw so many other women in my career and activism do the same thing.

3:09And it really is this idea, the formula that I talk about is bringing together your values, your abilities and your desires. Why do you think it's so much more common for women to find themselves in this position? I mean, certainly men have midlife crises or crises of confidence as well. But I think this is very, very common for women. Why is that? So common. You know, the theme of the book ended up being that men are taught by society to fulfill their desires and women are taught to fulfill their obligations. We have so many shoulds in our lives that society heaps on us, that we internalize, that we begin to believe sometimes even that those shoulds, those obligations are our fire.

3:50They are our fulfillment. And I interview Eve Rodsky and 70 other women in the book, and Eve talks about being C-I-Y-O-O, complicit in your own oppression. Whether that's happiness or busyness or purpose, all these things were being sold that we should be living for. It's really when we simply start to ask ourselves, what do I want? Which is something we don't often do, right? Because we're told we're going on a certain path or we're overwhelmed or we get to a later point in our lives where we don't think we're worthy. And we know what would happen if we asked ourselves, what do I want? Right?

4:23Institutions would topple. Governments would fail. Family systems would fall apart. Schools would close. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And this book is really an attempt. I mean, we're hearing so much about what women are doing now, which is wonderful. That was not happening in my mom's generation. But this is really the how. I think we often look at successful women, famous women, women in the public eye in any way. And as we are sitting at home, maybe with young children or just feeling kind of stuck where we are in our yoga pants and old T-shirt, they are special in a way that we are not and that they have skills in a way that we do not.

5:03and going back to your personal story, you talk about dealing with ADHD and fear of public speaking. And I thought that was super interesting because knowing you as a public figure, I know that my brain would just put you in a category of like, born to do this, I guess she's got some secret superpower that just never trickled down to me who's sitting here not knowing what to make for dinner. Yes. Let me dispel that myth for you because, as you said, I had this lifelong untreated ADHD. I barely graduated from high school. I barely graduated from college. I had a debilitating fear of public speaking.

5:39And I knew little to nothing about gun violence, the legislative process, organizing, really not anyone people would point to and say, oh, that woman over there, she should take on the most powerful, wealthy, special interest that's ever existed. And yet I was exactly the right person for the job because of my values, my abilities, and my desires. And so I don't want anyone to think that I am a unicorn, that I was somehow born uniquely to lead. We are all leaders in different ways, depending on our skill sets and what we bring to the table and what we want to be doing. And we really need to start thinking of ourselves that way.

6:12Let's go back to that metaphor, because living on fire, you go through very clearly that a fire needs three elements to survive. And those three elements are parallel to three things we need to light our fire. So walk us through those three parts of fire. Right. We learn about the fire triangle in school. What are the three things you have to have to start a fire? And if you don't have one of those three things, you can't start a fire or it goes out. And so in your personal fire triangle, as I was saying, you know, it's really your abilities, your values and your desires. That is the heat, the fuel, the oxygen.

6:44And it's not like you bring those three things together and suddenly, you know, you have this amazing life. It's more like a practice where, first of all, you have to figure out what those things are. And what I have seen is that women so often downplay their abilities. And so there are exercises throughout the book. I want you to list everything that you've ever done successfully. That includes kids' birthday parties, right? These are all skills that matter and make a difference. And they're accomplishments. accomplishments and then I want you to ask other people what they think your abilities are because so often people see things in us that we don't see in ourselves and then you keep that list because it will help you not only remind yourself that you are very accomplished but it will tell you what skills you still need to acquire if there are desires out there that you haven't achieved values that's the second part of the formula and I just did an event in Houston with Brene Brown who's sort of the North Star of values for us, right?

7:37And there are hundreds, if not thousands. And they change throughout your life, depending on what stage of life that you're in. For me, when I started Moms Demand Action in 2012, my kids were little. And so protecting my family and community were a priority for me. And then your desires. These are often dormant inside of us. They're things that we always wanted to do or what we were good at when we were kids or something that lights us up that we want to do during our lifetimes. And look, that might not be like me starting an organization. That may be having a tough conversation, asking for a promotion, deciding that you want to get involved in an issue.

8:12It can be very small or it can be very big. But when you bring this formula together over and over, eventually you will live on fire. And really that's a metaphor for figuring out two things. What is limiting you and what is calling you? And this is, again, a way to crystallize for women and prioritize their desires over their obligations. And that makes you a fire starter. I like that you said that it can be small because I think sometimes on the podcast, we're talking to a lot of women who are feeling really overwhelmed, really tired. We use a phrase that we learned from Dr. Linietta Willis, stable misery.

8:50There's so much to do every day that it's hard to be like, wait a minute, now I'm supposed to overturn the government too? I can't do it. I'm too tired, you know? But I think the book is very practical. This is really about sitting down to ask yourself questions about what you want your life to look like. It's not about don't take a nap today. You've got to start applying to NASA or whatever. Obviously, your story took you from one place to an extremely different place. But that might not be everybody's story, right? No. And I think the value of my example with Moms Demand Action is talking about and defining the blowback that will come your way.

9:37And I think that's a big part of why women don't get started on things. I had so many women say to me during my career and my activism, I just wish I had a manual to handle the blowback. And when I started Moms to Men Action, I immediately had threats of death and sexual violence to me and to my family. And very early on, I had to decide, you know, am I going to double back or am I going to double down? And I just decided that I did not want to be intimidated or silenced. And again, that can be about small things. Maybe you're not getting threats of death and sexual violence, but someone's going to make a snarky comment in the kid's pickup line.

10:14Or maybe your mother-in-law is going to say something about a dinner you missed, right? So when we decide to live differently, and that may mean doing less, it might mean doing more. But doing things differently will result in blowback. It is all predictable. None of it is personal. But even just knowing that that blowback is coming your way, I think helps you realize, and when you read the stories in my book of other women who have endured it, that you can get through it too. And I talk about three very specific ways to do that. Looking at the blowback and deciding, who does this come from? Is this a person's opinion that I value?

10:50And so often it's not. It can be even strangers on the internet and yet we personalize it, right? The second thing is to reframe it. I had the privilege of interviewing women like Sharon Salzberg and Kristen Neff, who are experts in meditation and self-compassion. How do you reframe those thoughts and endure the feelings that blowback engenders in us? Because it triggers guilt and shame, right? And then the last thing is to remember that you are a role model. And there are other women, maybe even your own kids who are watching you. And when you show the courage to endure the blowback, they will too.

11:23It creates this virtuous circle. Do you think that blowback is, again, something that women are more likely to experience than men? I know the answer to that. But yes, it's leaving your lane that causes the blowback. Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I started Moms to Man Action, I asked people for advice. And so often I heard, you're not the right person. This can't be done. You'll never win. It's already been done. On and on and on. All the reasons why I wasn't the right person. And that kind of blowback I got the whole way through. And I do think when people see women being brave, it triggers them, right, to put us back into our lane.

12:01And that is the blowback. And that blowback, which I mentioned triggers guilt and shame, it makes us behave in ways that are extinguishers to our fires. For some people, that's people pleasing. For some people, that's martyrdom. For some people, it's perfectionism. I go through different ways in the book that this blowback might trigger you. and ultimately what it is is self-sabotage because we have internalized I talk about living from the inside out instead of the outside in we start to internalize those things and it's very difficult to get past we're talking to Shannon Watts her new book is called fired up and we'll be right back hey there I'm Kendra Adachi and my show the lazy genius podcast helps you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't and you get to decide what matters I'm not here to tell you what to do.

12:48I'm here to give you a new way to see. Episodes of the Lazy Genius Podcast are full of compassionate time management tips and permission slips to do what makes sense for you. New episodes drop every Monday. Follow and listen to the Lazy Genius Podcast on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Shannon, I had never heard this term before and I wanted to ask you to explain it. Purpose anxiety. That's one of the first roadblocks. I'm gonna live my life on fire, but now I have purpose anxiety. What is that? I love that there's actually like a psychological phrase for it. Look, I talk about false fires in the book.

13:20Again, when we start to think about our obligations or our shoulds, they become so all-encompassing, they can actually start to feel like the reason we're living. And we live in a very capitalistic society that commodifies all that we do from self-care to purpose. And from a young age, we're often told we should find purpose, that we are bored for one single thing. And we have to figure out what that is. and then we have to make money at it and then we have to be good at it and we have to make sure other people make money at it and it has to last into perpetuity. It has become almost a business to figure out what your purpose is.

13:54You're supposed to buy all these books to read about your purpose. Right. Purpose is not side hustle. They're not the same thing. Exactly. And so we take something we desire or we love and then we turn it into this purpose and then it becomes just another obligation in our life. And the other false fires I talk about are happiness, this idea that we should always be happier, we should be chasing this feeling of happiness with this very ephemeral, right? And then the thing that I'm sure we're all familiar with is busyness, this false fire of, I must be productive, I must be constantly putting things out into the world, whether that's on social media, or something we're making, or something we're doing for our kids.

14:29And busyness can start to feel like the reason that we're alive. And so just being aware of those false fires, I think, is really important. And we can look honestly at our own lives and say, okay, have I started to go down this path? I think the idea of the false fire is so resonant. Like that feeling of, I mean, I've definitely had times where I was living to prove how great I was doing to other people. And it had nothing to do with what I was doing for a reason or for myself. But I also think, you know, we're taught in some ways to be very presentational and with social media, maybe even more so presentational.

15:07And that that false fire for me really resonated with the idea of like, everything's fine, everything's fine, and I'm doing great, but I'm spending so much energy showing everyone how great I'm doing that I'm accomplishing very little at the same time. You're not only accomplishing very little, but you're really not enjoying the process. Right. And the idea of living on fire is to feel as though you've come alive. And that's very different than feeling as though you're being performative. The quote that I needed to have in this book was the idea, I'm going to quote you, your fire is for you. It doesn't need to earn its keep.

15:44That's where I've gotten caught, I think, is the idea that, well, my writing career is only worthwhile if you sell the book, right? Or the book is only good if you get the review and that there's external markers that are showing or that this book was going to teach me how to start my own mom's demand action, right? Like this is the way you just do what I did. But what you're talking about living on fire is so much broader than that and also closer and more available than I guess I had thought. We are taught to commodify all that we do in a capitalistic society. That's a sign of success. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.

16:19How many subscribers do I have on Substack today? How many have I lost? And how many of them are paying me? And how many of them have liked my latest post, right? We all start to get into this. And it just sucks the joy out of all that we do, right? This idea that the comparing mind is joyless. And so when you're living on fire, and you're getting back and focusing on the present, and you are figuring out what it is that makes you specifically come alive, your distinct values, abilities and desires. And I really wrote this book in many ways for women my age. That said, I think there are four archetypes, It might be the young woman who has just graduated from high school or college and is trying to figure out what she wants to do.

17:00I teach college classes and so many women come up to me and say, I've been in school for four years to be X and I don't think I want this. And so before you spend so much time pursuing something that maybe your family or your friends have pressured you to want to do, it's interesting. So many women who are immigrants or the daughter of immigrants, they are giving three choices, doctor, engineer, and lawyer. And maybe that's, you know, I'd interview women who wanted to be an actor. And the second archetype, young women who may feel overwhelmed by a family or career, but they still want to find time for themselves and what they desire.

17:32And how do they carve that out of their lives? Women like me who are empty nesters and suddenly have all this time on their hands and have to remember that they have value and that their stories matter. And then women I talked to who are retired, maybe in their 70s, 80s and beyond, who have all this wisdom to share with the world. and are expected to kind of be invisible. And so no matter what stage you are in your life, you should always be feeling as if you have burned. I think that idea that the fire in itself has value. I remember having young kids. I had been a Hollywood television writer.

18:07That career disappeared. And I was home with kids. I knew I wanted to keep writing. I knew I wanted to keep being creative. But I had three little kids, so I would have to get a sitter or put them in daycare for a couple of hours a day in order to continue to write. At the time I was writing a blog that had like my mom read it and like six other people, maybe. That story can become very real to us. I'm not balancing the scales. I don't deserve to be paying for care for my kids when my fire is not bringing in any income at all. And I can't even see a path to where. Now, in the long term, what happened was Amy also had a blog.

18:48We connected. We started the podcast. Like if I hadn't kept that fire going, I would never have ended up with this career that I have now. But I remember feeling really guilty. And my spouse is very supportive and never said like, you know, why am I paying for this daycare when you're not making any money? But I felt so strongly in myself. And it took three years of writing for free, basically, when people are listening and feeling like I don't have anything that can make money or I don't have anything of value right now. How do you talk to them about the value of this fire? Well, you bring up so many good points in that question.

19:24As I said, I interviewed over 70 women for this book. And the most common deathbed regret in the world is that I didn't live a life authentic to me. And in every interview, I asked them at the very end, what are you afraid your deathbed regret would be, thinking they would all say that. Almost all of them, and the majority of them were moms, said the same thing, that they thought their deathbed regret would be, that they spent too much time focused on what they wanted at the detriment of their children. For other people, right? Yeah. It's this idea that because I pursued what I wanted, I was a bad mother.

19:57That's the guilt and shame we talked about. Of course. I don't know any men, including my own husband, who would ever say that. They just pursue what they want and assume that it will all end up being good for everyone, right? And yet women mostly worry that it will have a detrimental effect on their kids. Now, I talk in the book about I'm on the other side of that chasm. I have an all adult kids now. And they never say to me, oh, I can't believe because you were traveling, you missed that soccer game in 2006. They say two things. One is thank you for having things in your life that are important to you other than just me.

20:27It's a lot of pressure. And they also say thank you for giving me an example of how I can live as an adult. We all want our kids to pursue their desires. So guess what? They want us to do that too. Now, you brought up the question of money. And I think this is an important and yet complicated question because you should pursue what you want just because you want to pursue it, just because you have that desire. We all deserve that. At the same time, we can't let people take advantage of us. I talk in the book about how one of my extinguishers is martyrdom. And when I started Moms to Men Action, I paid a passion tax because I cared so much about what I was doing that I didn't take pay for 11 years.

21:08And I thought, oh, I'm such a good girl. Like, yes, I'm doing all this provocative stuff and I'm working on a polarizing issue, but I'm good because I'm not taking money. So there's a lot in the book about how to parse what you should be making money for and what you don't need to make money for. But I think what this all gets to is really about leaving a legacy. And this is a very loaded word. Every time I asked women what they wanted their legacy to be, they shied away like, oh, that's reserved for people who have hospitals named after them or for people who start philanthropies. But every woman deserves to leave a legacy, right?

21:40That is just knowing that you lived your life in a way that was true to you, but also that you explored all of the things that lit you up. Let's talk a little bit about what you call the messy middle, because Moms Demand Action is just such a perfect, fascinating example of this. Well, tell us a little bit about how Moms Demand Action started in your home and then how the fire quickly turned into a very, very big fire. So in 2012, I had taken about a five-year break from my career in corporate communications to blend my family of five. And we have five kids. And so I just thought, OK, I'm going to take five years off, go back after that.

22:17And I was getting ready to do that when I was at my house in suburban Indiana, a very cold day in December. And there was a chyron that came on the television that said there was an active shooter inside an elementary school in Connecticut. And like you, I'm sure, and so many people across the country, I just sort of stopped what I was doing and I went to bed in tears. It was unbathomable to me that 20 children and six educators had been murdered inside an elementary school. And at some point during that night, that sadness turned into abject rage. And I woke up the next morning and remembered that nothing had happened after Columbine and Virginia Tech and Gabby Giffords and on and on.

22:52And probably nothing would happen after this shooting too. And so I thought, okay, I was so inspired in the 80s as a teen by Mothers Against Drunk Driving. We need something like that to take on the special interest of the gun lobby. I had 75 Facebook friends at the time. And so I just put this plea out into the world. And those 75 friends shared it and they shared it with their friends and it just went viral. And within a week, we were on the cover of USA Today as this new organizing force that was going to take on the most powerful, wealthy, special interests that's ever existed. And were you thrilled with that?

23:26Were you like, oh, no, I didn't mean to start this big a fire? How did you feel when this was taking off? The latter, for sure. I remember that night we went to bed, my husband looked at me and he said, you know, this is going to be a very big deal. And he did not say it in like a happy way. Right. It was like, okay, we're about to have our lives turned upside down, which is exactly what happened. It just grew at such an amazing and somewhat alarming rate. I went from kind of doing all the cooking and the cleaning and the kid driving to being busier than I had ever been in my entire life, even in my career.

23:58And it required my ex-husband and my husband to step up in ways that all of us didn't expect. And it ended up being very good for our family and for our dynamic overall. You know, that was important that they were taking on different things. But at the same time, it was shocking. But I guess when you think about type A women and all that we're capable of, you know, not surprising. The fear of the fire sometimes is what if it catches? You know, it's what if it doesn't catch, but then also what if it catches? And both of those, I think, are very frightening kind of thoughts about starting a fire.

24:32Like, first of all, what if it goes out and everyone's like, ha ha, your fire stinks. And what a loser to try to start a fire, which is a very scary. I mean, Amy and I are both performers and we've been there literally on stage where people are like, yikes, that was bad. And it feels as bad as, I mean, it feels real bad when you fail in front of people. But it's interesting. It's also really hard when it goes well, too. I mean, it changes. It's change, I guess, very fundamentally and change is hard and scary, especially when you have a home where it functions very specifically with you in a very specific role in the center of it.