BEST OF: How Involved Should We Be With Our Kids' Schools?

21:45Amy Wilson:And I'm like, that is not useful. I mean, we're going to the art show and everyone has made this Picasso drawing. And I just think my kid was not that involved in whatever that is. That is not my kid's artwork. That is something. But it's not a reflection of my kid's ability. It's a reflection of look at how great the art we produce is. And I think that's difficult. I think a good way to start the conversation here is about homework, because we've talked about homework. I think one of our first five episodes was about homework on this podcast. I think it was called like, Is There Too Much Homework?

22:18Amy Wilson:Is There Too Much Homework? And again, yes and no, but let's focus on the yes. So how important is homework and how much should parents help from kqed.org? Certainly concerns that homework gets in the way of physical activities in play that we've talked so much on this podcast that if every single thing your child does during a day is structured and supervised by an adult, that's not great. That's non-optimal, as we say. Yeah, you're not getting to a thousand hours outside if your kid has hours of homework. And you're also just not getting into like learning the skill of independence and the gift of failure.

22:59Amy Wilson:Jess Leahy, our friend and who's been on the podcast, you're not, they are in such a, not even protective because maybe sports is hard, but they're never out on their own figuring stuff out. Problem, something to look out for in your child's schedule. And this study shows that homework helps with proficiency in middle school and high school, but not in elementary school. So like elementary school homework, you really need to keep an eye on. Your kids should not be doing two hours of homework in elementary school. And you can tell them I sent you and they can call me. There are kids for whom what was intended to be 20 or 30 minutes of homework is taking two hours.

23:41And that's when you should get involved with the school and talk to the teacher and just like gut check. How long do you think? Open-ended question. How long do you expect these assignments to be taking? I've been in this position. And when I went to the teacher and they said, this is about 20 to 30 minutes, I'm like, okay, in our house, it's like 90 to 120 minutes. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. And they were immediately completely re-racking. I want you to set a timer. I want the kid to stop when they get to 30 minutes and stop. And I want to see how much they're getting through in 30 minutes.

24:10And it was very helpful. And that was a time when I was glad I went to the school. But I think I went open-ended, non-accusatory. I'm seeing this issue. And can you help me with it? And we did.

24:21Amy Wilson:But I had a teacher with bandwidth to help. I've heard a teacher say homework is like a thermometer. Like, how's it going? Right. It's a review. We did this in class. Go take this home. Show that you understood what we did in class. Bring it back. So if you didn't understand it and the dad fills it out for you, that's not helpful information for the teacher. Right. It's supposed to be showing what you learned. And so in elementary school, maybe there should not be no homework. but I think using that guide of, okay, you have half an hour to do your homework. What didn't get done? Okay. If none got done, you may have a kid with some attention issues that you need to dial in.

24:58Amy Wilson:If half got done, okay, that's good to show the teacher and that you can have a conversation back and forth in that. And I think that treating homework, not as like the nuns said you must and we shall, and treating it as more of a thermometer for your kids. This is And homework in high school, their guide is not to exceed one and a half to two and a half hours per night for high school students, no more than one hour a night for middle school students. That may not sound realistic to some people. I think this is also a family values conversation, right? Like I just sent my kid on a trip that he was looking forward to and he missed a week of school.

25:39Amy Wilson:And it was important to me to have the conversation of, I think this trip is going to be very educational. I'd love you to keep a journal. I want this to be a learning experience for you. If you want to take this trip, it is going to involve double the amount of work when you get back to school to get taught up. Like, this is the parameters of our decision around education versus our lives. And I think sometimes we take ourselves out of that conversation and we feel like, well, education demands this, so we must, or our lives demand this, so forget the school. And that really, it's a conversation between the two places, home and school.

26:15I think what's so hard, like just being on the side of teachers for a moment, I think there is not anybody listening, not you and me for sure, but there is a lot of entitlement among parents and kids. And like, this is how it's going to work, right? Like, and then that same kid, a different kid that wouldn't be your kid would take that week off to do something that might not have much educational value, but we're going, we're skiing out West, right? And we come back and this is way too much homework. And you can't possibly be expected to do this much homework. And then they don't do well on a test.

26:43and then the parents calling upset that they didn't do well on the test. Like that happens too. And so I think it makes it harder. Parents come in loaded for bear a lot, I think. And so then when you're contacting the teacher, it's sort of freighted with that like, okay, usually this is how it goes. Not knowing that we, when we do this, are going to be very polite and open-ended and asking for help. And they don't necessarily expect that. And so I think it can sometimes start at a heightened place, in every serial place, because that's what they're expecting if you contact them.

27:15Amy Wilson:Right, right. That it starts from a place and that we do lose perspective that like our one precious seventh grader who has these very specific needs and wants is one of 20 to 30 of that teacher's students or more. And that that teacher really cannot look out for the individualized needs of every single student in their classroom. And that when people come in with, well, this is our needs, this is our needs, you really have to be able to see it in the context of this is the needs of everybody in the classroom. And I do think that the attitude and it's something that I try to push back on, and I see it in my kids, and they're just like modern kids.

27:56It's not that they're monsters of, oh, this teacher, this and this teacher that and I do I

28:03Amy Wilson:mean, we do have a rule in our house, like, I don't want to hear anyone talking badly about a teacher in our home. It's just not happening. That is still your teacher. Like you may have an issue with them. Even your bad nun, Amy, like you still have to approach it from the point of view of that is the teacher and this is the problem. And can we work out the problem with this person? But when we start with the point of view of from the parent or the child, this teacher is an idiot. Therefore, I just feel like we're not going anywhere good from that place. Yeah, I think you're right. So let's close up on homework and talk about some guidelines around homework that I found helpful.

28:41Amy Wilson:Focus on providing general monitoring guidance and encouragement, but allow children to generate answers on their own and complete their homework as independently as possible. Agree have not always been great at this. And by the way, if you have a kindergartner, you can just like tell them the answers because homework doesn't matter when you're in kindergarten. only provide help when your child asks for it and step away whenever possible okay so this is I think set up a place for your I like for my kids to do homework at the dining room table while I'm cooking so then I can kind of jump in if I'm needed but basically I'm not sitting over their shoulder and doing it with them and I think my husband struggles a little bit with this he was a teacher and he likes to sit with them and like reteach it to them, which I think is fine.

29:33Amy Wilson:But I'm often like, just make sure they're really getting to the answer on their own, though. I think it can be very hard not to like lead the witness when you're helping too much with homework. My kids principal said when they were in grade school that in fourth grade, that they should have an area on their own. If they didn't have their own room, then a desk in the room, like a place that they do homework away from the bustle of the house to make sure they're doing it independently, but also like the work's getting hard and they need to be able to develop independent study habits, which I thought was a good idea in practice.

30:02And yet I have some kids who loved that. And I had some kids who always wanted to be in the middle of the kitchen while you're making dinner and ended up being a fight that I decided not to have. But having them in their own space makes it a little easier to make sure you're not getting over involved. But some kids want a little more of that emotional handholding.

30:21Amy Wilson:I have a kid who does their homework in their room at a desk and I never see it. And then I have a kid who does homework right next to me because needs more support. Like that's just a call you make on your own, I think. Help your children create structure, develop routines. So this is scaffolding, right? Like how do you best work? Is it upstairs in your room quietly? Is it I have a child who does homework on Discord with his friends and I listen in. They're not giving each other, but they're talking it through. I think that's fine. But the routine has to work for them. And that's also certain homework.

30:57Amy Wilson:It's more like group projects and stuff or like talking through answers with peers. I'm fine with it. Communicate with your child and teacher about any problems your child has with homework and the teacher's learning goals. This is what you're talking about. This is taking my kid two hours. Is that right? Right, right. Or the kids, just so you know, the fifth graders are doing their, you know, history project together in a Google Doc or on Discord. And did you know that was happening? Right. And does that work for you? Does that work for you? Yeah. But don't tell me it doesn't because I really don't want to get involved.

31:32All right.

31:32Amy Wilson:We'll be right back. Amy, I'm soaking in it. You know, I hate packing to go places, which is why I'm so grateful that Quince's mix and match pieces make throwing together a vacation wardrobe so much easier. Quince specializes in high quality essential pieces that will become the basic building blocks of your wardrobe, like the 100 % organic cotton poplin pin tuck maxi skirt I just got. You can wear it to the pool. You can wear it out to dinner. Wear it everywhere because it goes with everything else that's already in my closet. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands.

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33:09Amy Wilson:It has an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs seamlessly with Google, Apple, Outlook, and more, giving you customizable views for daily, weekly, or monthly planning. And if you're an organization nerd like me, you can also manage events, chores, and grocery lists on the Skylight, all of which can be added or edited from your phone while you're on the go. If in four months you're not 100 % thrilled with your Skylight purchase, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash WFH.

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34:06Amy Wilson:And now, the What Fresh Hell podcast presents pretty much every letter you get home regarding your kids' school projects ever. Dear parents, great news. It's time for one of our favorite take-home activities of the year, the Class Imagine Your Own Country project. Remember, this is meant to be a hands-on learning experience for your children, and there should be minimal parental involvement. Each student must create a full 3D relief map of their country that includes 10 separate landforms rendered realistically. Sand on the beach, water in the lakes, etc. Don't forget to work to scale. And it goes without saying that a map key must be included.

34:51Amy Wilson:Are you finding this hard to picture? Don't worry. We've included some of our outstanding country projects from past years. Isn't it amazing how they look like they were crafted by a team of expertly skilled graphic designers and or people with advanced cartography and architecture degrees? Yours should look exactly like this, whether or not your child has any artistic abilities or ideas about scale construction. Oh, check out this project from two years ago. Aren't the made-to-scale skyscrapers made from polymer clay just amazing? Right now, you're probably thinking, but wait, I don't have a polymer kiln in my house capable of firing at 1 ,200 degrees Fahrenheit.

35:29Amy Wilson:Well, I guess you'll just have to figure it out, won't you, Mom? Our expectations for this project are simple. You should have to make the impossible choice between letting your kid do this themselves and ending up with a hot mess that looks nothing like the examples. Or you and your spouse can make this thing for them. We sure hope at least one of you has a home art studio or wood shop to utilize. But the most important part of this project is have fun. Please note, this is mostly directed towards those who think listening to children complain and receiving hot glue gun burns is fun. That may not be you.

36:03Amy Wilson:Don't forget, the economy of your island should be calculated using YOY numbers and accounting for fluctuations in the Consumer Price Index. Your fifth grader knows how to do that, right? This has been pretty much every letter you get home regarding your kids' school projects ever from the What Fresh Hell podcast.

36:23Amy Wilson:So our time study from earlier says that parent, family, and community involvement in education correlates with higher academic performance, school improvement, improving students' behavior, attendance, and achievement. It also correlates with better social emotional health. Wow. But Amy, you know what I like to say? What is this study really studying? And it's studying a lot of things. It's studying functional families. It's studying functional communication between the parents and the teachers instead of how dare you. It's studying it. I think a lot of it is studying income and how the school is doing in general that like a community involvement in the school can be a sign of a high socioeconomic school community and that they're not it's not about people.

37:10Amy Wilson:It's about structures. That's what gets me about these studies. You understand what I'm saying? That like, it's not about who cares the most. It's about who has the resources to be involved. Yes. So that being said, as we go back to Jenny Anderson's article in Time, Go Beyond Grades encourages parents to ask where their children are and to help them find the resources that they need. And so this is for kids who are maybe getting okay grades, but then their skills don't seem to be matching the grades that they're getting. Okay. Number one, ask the teacher if your child is on grade level. This is a question.

37:55Amy Wilson:I have a kid with an IEP and two kids who don't have IEPs. Grade level is extremely important in the IEP conversations, and I've never had the conversation about my other two kids. So I do not actually know the answer to this question for my kids. I assume the answer is yes, but I don't know. And I'm going to be asking. Be in the know about what is expected for grade level. And there are tons of resources and we will link to them here. So it would be a good idea to familiarize yourself with grade level expectations in the United States. It's like developmental milestones, right? So understanding grade level expectations will help you see whether or not your kid is meeting those expectations.

38:38Amy Wilson:And the answer is not, and if they are not, that means everything is all is lost. But I think looking at these two things side by side might be a better arbiter for what is going on with your kid, their school and their education than simply letter grades. and then three connect to programs that can help your child get the support they need tutoring or after school help which obviously costs a lot of money i have a kid in tutoring i cannot believe how much money it costs and it requires parental involvement right like so much for like stop being so involved parents that's a lot of involvement required to figure out what support your kid needs to get it to then communicate with school about it to see it through to get them there every week Yes.

39:25Hooray for parental involvement when it's required in that way. Of course.

39:29Amy Wilson:So like parental involvement, which kind of becomes this straw man of like, oh my God, these kids go to college and people are calling the dean to check on their grades, which, you know, I would say is a problem. But I think that it's not the problem. The problem. Yes, you should probably not be on your school's portal 24 hours a day. And like, oh my god if you don't get an A all is lost probably not great but also it's not really reflect it's a stereotype of a problem it is not the actual problem that is going on in the U.S. educational system and I would also say like having seen multiple kids now through transitions to high school and then into college like a lot of this like oh my god look at this annoying parent who wants to know what size sheets they use on the bed in that dorm in July like how how dare this mother be asking, like that stuff goes away.

40:22That stuff is a little bit of the, you know, it's a little bit of the separation anxiety looming. And you're way over involved in what choices your kid is making for like two weeks, and then they're launched, and you feel better. And it's not a big deal. I think that stereotype is a lot of like stuff that's over by September 15, if you feel me.

40:41Amy Wilson:Yeah, and very good and fair point. And that, right, you just cannot really get into playing the game of like, you do everything for your kids and then like, shut up, mom, you're so pushy. It's like people, you can't win this argument. So maybe don't play. Right. Does parental involvement really help students by Libby Stafford? Let's see. So her answer is that school based involvement, participation in parent teacher conferences, open houses, and other school events has a positive impact on academics in preschool, middle school, and high school. But the size of the impact was much lower in high school than preschool.

41:22Amy Wilson:This makes sense, right? I mean, this is everybody's experience. At preschool, you're there being the mystery reader for your four-year-old. I have never set foot. I have a 10th grader. I've never set foot inside the high school other than to go to like a recital of some sort. Apparently, well, she says that's because the high school levels of involvement, there's many fewer opportunities and avenues to be, yeah, walking in and making cookies or whatever, that that doesn't really happen in high school. And that is as it should. Yes, because it's completely appropriate that like your four year old might need a lot of support to function well in preschool, your five year old in kindergarten, even your 10 year old in whatever grade that is.

42:03But yeah, by high school, I drop my kid off in the morning and I

42:07Amy Wilson:guess I check their grades, but I don't really have a lot of involvement in what's going on in my kids' schooling in high school, which seems appropriate. Which would definitely be the high school student's preference, I assume. Correct. And also, frankly, my preference. At-home discussions and encouragement surrounding school have a positive impact on students' academic achievement at all developmental stages. Oh, interesting. It's our old friend, Amy, family dinners. Yes, encouragement surrounding school. That's a little bit different than achievement pressure, I guess. Encouragement and scaffolding versus achievement.

42:46Amy Wilson:And Jennifer Burhani-Wallace talks about this as focusing on process over outcome, right? That the A isn't the important thing. The effort is the important thing. and that that just sends a very different message to kids. One common form of parental involvement, helping kids with their homework, was shown to have little impact on students' academic achievement. This is also from Libby Stafford. We've seen earlier, this is mostly elementary school that it has no impact in. Right, because if you're showing them how to do the division, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get it for the test because you help them with it on a homework on a Tuesday, I guess is what it's saying.

43:25Amy Wilson:Right, that you're basically, they're learning it in school, they're coming home, you're showing them how to do it, they're filling in the answer, and then there's no actual learning taking place, and we might be missing some messages about the fact that they're not getting it. Yes, you're not showing them how to do it the right way at all. Oh, no, you're not showing, you're not grouping, you don't have number sense. Nope, stay out of it. In fact, she says, homework help had a small negative impact on student achievement, but positive impacts on students' motivation and engagement in school, according to the American Pediatric Association.

44:02So it had a small negative impact on student achievement. Okay, so they might not do as well on the test if you help with the homework, but it helps them be motivated and be engaged at school. Be motivated.

44:12Amy Wilson:It's like the wrong kind of pressure, I think, is what it's trying to say, right? Like they stay really motivated, but maybe you're not actually helping them with the academic part of it. For our final conclusions, Amy, we turn to Slate's care and feeding panel, which is a panel of experts who answers questions at slate.com. And this is their most effective ways to advocate if you have a concern or an idea that feels worth pressing at school. There's a bunch of teachers and educators who are answering this question. I like this. Start with the staff member most relevant and directly involved with the issue you'd like to discuss.

44:47Amy Wilson:Don't start with the principal. Start with the. Don't start with the principal, friends. Don't go above the person who has the problem. This is tempting to do, especially when you're mad. Don't do it. If it's logistically possible for a sticky conversation, aim for an in-person meeting or a phone call because email tone can be tough. Agreed. That's right. That's right. And then she goes on to say a heads up message about what you'd like to discuss because we We have this sometimes on our work Slack where I'll say to someone, I need to meet you at four. And it means I have this one question I need you to answer.

45:24Amy Wilson:But the person has spent the whole day being like, oh my God, what did I terribly do wrong that I'm being called to a meeting at four? So I have a little joke on our Slack that I'll put it like a happy face. Like it's fine or whatever. My dad used to do this. He would call me like, it's your father call me. And I'm like, 86 members of the family dead? Like what is happening? And he's like, no, I just needed you to call me back because I want to know if you want a pizza or pasta, you know. And yes, give a nice heads up. Like, you want to basically signal I come in peace. Right. Or it's the opposite version of like how everybody says when the school calls, when you answer the phone, like it's so and so from blank school, everything's fine.

46:01You know, they know to do that. It's like, can you have a different caller ID? Like school, everything good. School. Oh, no. Right. It's that panic. I never really thought about that. And I hope that when I contacted at that teacher many moons ago to say homework is taking way longer than I think you think it's taking that I gave him a heads up of the topic. I hope I did that. That's good advice.

46:18Amy Wilson:Final advice, which I think is really good. In terms of what to bring to the conversation, less is more a clear message prioritized asks and to the point rationale. You come with the problem and the potential solution. Yes. This is a big Amy thing and I love it. Right. Say more about that. Just like Like, so this homework is taking forever. And like, oh, no, it's not supposed to be taking that long. Like, well, that's what I thought. So I came in and I thought maybe we should just do part of it or should we do more on the weekends? And then they were like, no, no, no, I want you to do it. Set a timer and stop when it gets to this point and show me where they stopped.

46:53It's not that my solution was a solution. It's that instead of just coming like this is way too much homework. Right. That's not coming with the problem in the solution. That's just the problem. Yeah. So I thought we might try X, then let them come up with the real solution. but you're coming in collaboratively instead of accusingly.

47:08Amy Wilson:And I think the overarching issue that is being addressed here is our favorite. Operate from a place of maximum generosity. I had a conflict with one of my kids' teachers, and it was a teacher who was going to be with this kid for a long time. And we were, the first two interactions were extremely, you know, hostile or sparky, let's say, just not terrible, but hot, I would say. And my mom gave me the advice of, you need to make her part of the solution, not part of the problem. And you go in and say, and it worked great. Like, you are such an amazing teacher. You are so into, here's where I'm struggling.

47:50Amy Wilson:How can you help me with this problem? It was transformative, as opposed to going in and saying, hi, comma, you idiot, comma, here's what you're doing wrong. And this is just practical advice. This is not moral advice. This is not how to be a person advice. This is practical advice that you come with the possibility that you can both solve the problem together. I mean, are there completely maniacal evil teachers out there somewhere? Probably. But most teachers are probably the problem is coming from a lack of bandwidth. If there's something, I recently had an issue with something that was being presented that I thought was problematic, shall we say.

48:34And I was like, here's the thing.

48:37Amy Wilson:I think this isn't great. I'm going to opt my kid out of it. If there's any issue, let me know. This is just my own personal choice. I didn't come at it from the point of view of you dopes. Why are you doing this? I just think don't pour gasoline on a situation. It's a power struggle. You know what I mean? And the end of the day is these people are with your kid all day. so you can make it a war but you're not on real solid ground for the war so you might as well make it a treaty yes we solved it we solved all things education amazing and we will never have a problem again in this area yes yes friends we keep reminding you we're going to do it one more time make sure you're subscribed and following the podcast wherever you listen they're always changing the apps and not delivering it say to your friends hey are you still getting what fresh hell, you know, you had to re-opt in at some point.

49:32Amy Wilson:It's a thing and a thing. Just grab their phones and subscribe them and follow them wherever they're listening. Don't grab their friends. That would be illegal. Grab their phones. Probably also illegal, but go ahead. Follow and subscribe wherever you listen. We so appreciate it. And with that, we'll talk to you next time. So long.

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