DEEP DIVE: Best Advice for Dealing with Teenagers

20:58Amy Wilson:And they need visibility on that as older teenagers. And I think some of the conversations that we have, people kind of roll their eyes out of like, we'll include kids in the decision. And And, you know, people get very like tweet, tweet about the whole like, well, four year old, what are your feelings and how can we help you help yourself? Like that kind of style and language. I get why people roll their eyes at it. But I do think as you go along and being able to have conversations where you say, well, we're going to go away. I would like to leave you at home. Here are the kind of choices that I expect.

21:33Amy Wilson:And the thing is, if you have people over unsupervised, then we can't do this again. It's a drag for you because you won't have any independence. And it's a drag for me because I really want to go away. So what does that look like? And what are those choices look like? And I do think that these are the conversations that build from the time they're quite young is being able to say, here's what you want. Here's what I want. Where's the center of those two things? And how do we get there together versus respect my authority, never question, because you don't want them to just suddenly like throw everything you've ever set off and be like, I reject one piece of this and therefore I reject everything this person ever has to say.

22:15Right.

22:15Amy Wilson:The whole system is broken. Laura says teens have big feelings about things we might find trivial. Let them have those big feelings. This is a good one. Mm hmm. We should just call this episode things that are true, but also very hard for us. I know it is, though, like I was definitely raised in an Irish Catholic family where, like, you know, a ton of like emotionality and indulgence in our feelings was not paramount. and I definitely struggle with it still. Like, this is not a reasonable reaction to this, this level of drama that we're creating. And, you know, teens do a lot of things that you can see through, right?

22:59Amy Wilson:It's like, mom, you're so great. I'm like, what do you want? How much money? Like, you know, I kind of skip right past. It's not like I'm playing at a much higher level than they are, frankly. And I can see through some of the nonsense that they're doing. And it is often my instinct to be like, cut it out. I know what you're doing. Sometimes it's like you got to let it breathe a little bit. And I definitely do struggle with you've got to let it breathe. The flip side of not looking emotionality is that I have trouble disappointing kids. Like when my kids are really emotional, because I'm like, you cannot do this thing that I know is a bad idea for you, or you must do this thing that I know is a good idea for you.

23:36Amy Wilson:And they cry. I definitely have an instinct to be like, nevermind, nevermind, let's just give it. And I find that the older they get, the harder that is. Their emotions seem really real and it seems really mean to hurt their feelings and it's hard. Sure. Like a 13 year old in tears is just every Tuesday, right? And an 18 year old in tears is a little bit less frequent maybe and harder. Right. Yeah. Once an hour. But like a four year old in tears is like, okay, fine. Even a 13 year old in tears, I find that like those teens get into those really like racking sobs and even though it's like you really can't fight their battles for them but it is hard like it's not dismissible to be like stacy is an idiot and we don't care about her opinions but when you see the kid crying both i'm like stacy's a moron who cares and i'm gonna go burn stacy's house down myself you know that's the problem i'm sort of sucked in on both sides that's the other mistake that i think sometimes parents of teenagers make is like is overcorrecting in the like, of course, I take your thing seriously.

24:40She just texted you again. What did she say now? Right. Like every text has to be parsed. Like you don't dismiss it as relationships are stupid. And someday my child, you understand you don't have real problems. But on the other hand, you don't engage with their the minutiae of who said what to who in the same way that they do. You've got to give them a little bit of a remove. You've got to give them a longer view. Now they're dismissing it nor living every moment of it with them. Yeah.

25:04Amy Wilson:And I think especially with teenagers, it's like you're the hearth keeper in a way like you have created, hopefully a home and a set of values and a loving space. And you're letting them like wander farther and farther from it. But you want them to like be the space to come back to, you know. Or as Posey says, their net to fall into. Right. Their net to fall into. You're not fighting the fight, but if they fall off the edge, you're the net. Right. You're more passively available. I think passively available is a really good way to say it and a really hard thing to do, especially Maren says, I mean, she uses the term soiling the nest, which you've used many times, that there is a psychological concept that kids who are anxious about leaving home, which spoiler alert, is every kid, they tend to be like, this place stinks.

25:56Amy Wilson:I never liked it here. Their feelings are complicated around leaving home. And so they try very specifically to make home a place where they don't want to be or define it as like a bad place so that they don't feel as bad leaving. Guess who else does this? The parents of the teenagers who will still be leaving. We also, there's a psychological thing that we do. We're also like, I can't wait. Like, can't come soon enough. September. Let's go. You were out of the day driving me nuts. Like, I can't wait. And you don't mean it. And you'll still cry that day when you drive away. But that feeling that you have, like this needs to just happen already, is coming from both sides, really.

26:40Interesting.

26:41Amy Wilson:Yeah, that makes sense. Camille says, never forget that any I hate you statements really mean I'm scared and I don't know what to do with these feelings. Don't take it personally. It can be very lonely if you do. I need to work on this, Amy. This is another one. This is very Camille. I'm going to use this one. I hate you. And just here in my head, I'm scared and I don't know what to do with these feelings. That's a really good replacement because I hate when people say don't take it personally. They just said, I hate you. Like something personal and intentionally wounded. You take it personally.

27:12Like someone told you they hate you. Yeah, right. It isn't like he's yelling at the dog and I'm taking it personally. He's yelling at me and he's saying you were awful. Of course, you take it personally. What does that even mean? But I understand this idea that you can replace what they are saying with what they mean.

27:26Amy Wilson:The other thing I want to underline here, because I think that this is so important, and this is the conversation that I'm having with a lot of my friends as our kids really get into teenagedom, is boundary-seeking behavior, which is another one of my mom's terms. But basically, that kids are actually looking for boundaries. and that it can sound kind of in contrast to everything else we've said, but it's so important that kids are pushing boundaries and they want to feel them. And so I would say that saying I hate you to me is unacceptable in my house. And so I have to watch how I react to it.

28:09Amy Wilson:I can't be like the top that explodes, but I would say I'm not having a conversation with someone who says that to me, go upstairs or I'm going to go into my room and we can discuss this later when you're calmer. But I am not allowing someone to say I hate you to my face in my home. It is not happening. And so you're not getting what you want out of this conversation. And there are some consequences to saying I hate you to me because I really do think that kids are like hitting that trip wire because in some ways they want to understand that you're really still in charge. Yes. And that if you keep moving the boundaries back every time they hit them, kids feel very insecure.

28:54Amy Wilson:Like they want a weighted blanket thrown over them, which is your rules. And they want to know that like they can't get away with things because it's their job to push And it's your job to be the wall they're pushing against. Remember the ADHD dude was talking about the sort of argument vortex. And he was saying specifically kids with ADHD are really turned up for arguments. It's a little hit of dopamine. But I think this is really true for any adolescent that the kid is like, I hate you. What when you could respond to that with a like, you will not talk to me. But then you're feeding the fire.

29:29If you instead say what you said or Laura suggested, you say, I did not deserve that. Can you try again, please? but you keep it calm, that you're not entering the argument with them. You're still remaining a distance from it. That's what not taking it personally, I'm realizing, means. It's not trying to convince them, like, how could you say that when I'm the one who did this? I need to change your mind about this right now. No, you don't. You just need to say, hey, we're not doing that. That's not taking it personally.

29:54Amy Wilson:We're not doing that. I think that's right. And I think it can be hard. And I have done it and friends of mine have done it when the lines get totally mowed over. listen, this is harder with kids with certain special needs. This can be much harder with kids with ADHD. It can be much harder with kids on the spectrum. And let's just say, we're not just saying that. It can be much harder. It can be harder with kids who've had trauma and loss. There are a lot of things that make these issues much harder for teens. But I think there is always a back to one to be had here where you can say, listen, there's a lot of anger and there's a lot of frustration and our relationship feels out of control to me.

30:36Amy Wilson:And I have had this with one of my kids where I'm like, I have lost the script. This kid is always raging. I'm always throwing gasoline on the fire. The minute he starts raging, I'm grabbing the gas can and running in and being like spraying it everywhere. And we're both just burning up every day. And I have said to myself, to my spouse, to my child, this has gotten out of control and we need to reset. We need to spend, and it doesn't take long. We need to spend two weeks saying boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. We're not going to allow this kind of talk. We're not going to allow hysteria in the house.

31:11Amy Wilson:And here's the thing. When it stops working, it stops happening. And that is very encouraging. And it's an opportunity to get on the same side of the net with your kid. And the problem is like, we seem to be fighting a lot and there's a lot of stress and this is a stressful time, but you're with them. And I have had success. You can't do that with every problem, with every teenager, but overall I have had success with like, this feels like we've gotten off path and how do you suggest we do this? It works better than young man understand one thing. I mean, when that stops working, try the same side of the net instead.

31:44Absolutely, I have one more thing to say about that.

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34:24Is your self-esteem too high?

34:26Amy Wilson:It's so nice to be at an age where I just finally accept myself for who I am. Getting to bed too early every night? I'm in the mood to tuck in at 930 and then read for a little while and get eight blissful hours of sleep. Do you find yourself burdened by having too much money and food in your life? Try teenagers. Are you kidding me? There's nothing to eat. I thought you were going to the store. With teenagers, you'll never have to worry about free evenings again. Instead, you'll be arguing with your offspring about whether or not a bikini top is proper attire for grandma's 83rd birthday dinner.

35:07It's fine. Why are you so uptight, Mom? Still not convinced? Well, consider the exercise you'll get pacing the floor while waiting for the kid you used to buckle into his car seat to drive himself home at 1 a.m.

35:20Amy Wilson:My God, what time is it? Shouldn't he be home? Oh, God, it's only 10 p.m. Three more hours of terrified waiting. Did someone say self-esteem? With teenagers, you'll be back to levels you haven't seen since walking around the middle school cafeteria looking for a place to sit. God of war and God of thunder have nothing to do with each other. How dumb can you be? Sorry, I was just trying to make conversation. Well, please stop. It's cringe. I think I'll go talk to the cat. Try teenagers. I need some money. Can you hurry up?

36:02Christine says you might be surprised by the grief you feel as teenagers grow into themselves. Give yourself space to feel your feelings, but don't make it their problem.

36:14Amy Wilson:Oh, this is really right and true. And I think for some of my kids who, you know, especially when they're little, and I feel like we all think we're so smart and I would have conversations like you'll never be the teen who hates me haha with my like little cuddly eight-year-old spoiler alert they are and I think it's hard like I do feel like we think we're going to be immune to some of these things and like we're too cool and with it and hip to have kids who hate us it they're supposed to it's developmentally appropriate skip this phase at your own peril for sure and you can't outsmart it. You can't outrun it.

36:53Amy Wilson:You can't go over it. Can't go under it. Only way is through it. Yeah. Lawrence Steinberg said in his book Crossing Pass, which I read recently, that's why I keep talking about it, but that their needs for connection to you change. And what's painful is that your needs haven't changed. You even really haven't changed. Exactly. I still have the same taste in clothes I did three years ago. It's just three years ago. It was really fun to go shopping with my kid. And now it's not because everything I pick is super, super stupid. Yeah. How did I lose? I've lost my touch. No, I haven't lost my touch.

37:23It's just what mom thinks is now very, very low on the totem pole.

37:27Amy Wilson:Kids cannot grow into like happy, sustainable adults without going through some sort of cleaving. Cleaving, the only word in the English language that means one thing and the opposite of that thing. Cleaving can mean coming together or coming apart. I'm talking about breaking apart. And there, I think it can be helpful. A pediatrician told me when I had a colicky baby, crying is the only exercise that an infant gets. So whenever they're crying, think of like, oh, here they are. They're working out their lungs. They're getting their exercise. How great. It doesn't work really, but it's just a little mind reset.

38:04Amy Wilson:And I think that cleaving is the exercise of teenage dumb is a phrase that helps me in terms of like when I'm being told I'm dumb or getting the door slammed in my face. And again, I don't allow nonsense in my I don't allow myself to be disrespected in my house and I'm not going to. But some of the like, we don't want to include you. We want to include dad or some of the things that might hurt my feelings. I do try to be like, oh, look, it's cleaving here right on schedule. And they're doing the important work that is going to make us close as adults. They're cleaving. And I think that what happens is we get an instinct to stop that, to control it, and that we have to fight against that.

38:43Mm hmm.

38:44Amy Wilson:Danielle says, and this really spoke to me because I'm struggling with this and it was something I had to like do a full reset on. Save all your energy for nighttime. I'm an early rising morning person, but without fail, my teens always want to dump their most intimate secrets as I'm ready to fall asleep. Learn from my mistakes. Despite what they say about these being awful times, it's nice to have some time to yourself when you feel you've gotten over the hump. I think that this it's like after school restraint collapse that our ADD guy told us to there's a nighttime like deregulation effect, right?

39:18Amy Wilson:That sometimes the half an hour before bed is the time that you'll get like the big tantrum and the big breakdown. Seems very familiar to me. I don't know about you. So two sides of this. One is that sometimes you have to kind of read it like, yes, that can be a good time for connection and finding out what's really going on. But I also think sometimes it's a good time for like throwing yourself in the lava and both of you burning up. So I think you have to be a little bit careful about night times in terms of when they are productive conversations. Great. If they are not productive conversations, sometimes it is just time to go to bed.

39:55Right. And I would say be available. It's this passively available thing, I think. You never know when your teenager is all of a sudden going to start to unburden themselves or start to be like, okay, so remember I told you about this and they have a long story for you and you were maybe supposed to leave for the dentist five minutes ago. But those things come when they come and they pick the strangest moments. And I try to always be like, oh, I'm in it. They need me. This is stuff that you're doing. Give them your full attention. And for me, it's not always late at night. I will say it's not in the morning.

40:26My oldest kid, post-teenager, is home for the summer, has an internship that has him getting up early in the mornings. And I'm up early in the morning, so I've been sitting with him. He's not really in the mood for talking. It's not personal. It's not me. He just can't really talk yet at 7.45 in the morning. But I'm around. And one of these mornings, he's going to be like, remember I told you about my friend? And you just have to be sort of ready for it, I think.

40:50Amy Wilson:Yeah. Somebody made the point a long time ago. So anytime you're not having eye contact is a good time for a conversation. Driving a car with your back to them while they're cooking, like that can be an easier time to have a conversation. Not when you're like kind of staring them down like, what? What? Give me every detail. Like passive conversation is good. We had a lot of people point out like giving kids a system to get out of bad situations, texting an X, having a code word, whatever it happens to be. I think that's a great way to give kids power in situations, giving kids carte blanche or like get out of jail free cards around certain things like you're never going to be in trouble if it's something that's going wrong and I can help you with it.

41:31Amy Wilson:And starting to figure out conversations around these more adult topics, which is text me an ex and I will come and be like grandma's in the hospital. We have to go right now, whatever it is. I will get you out of the situation if you text me an ex and also setting some understanding. around you're never in trouble if you call me for help, I think can be a really good place to go so that you're really saying like, okay, you got in the car and then you realize somebody had too much to drink. Like whatever it is, you call me, I will get involved in this situation. And like, you can call for a get out of jail free because you're calling for help.

42:12Amy Wilson:Right. Because your safety is more important. Michelle Eichard, I'm going to put a link in the show notes to our fresh take that we did with her. She wrote a book called 14 Talks by Age 14. It's very good. And she, I think it was Michelle that said, and I thought this was such good advice. If you have that uncomfortable conversation, if you need to talk about porn, if you need to talk about, you know, being sexually active, whatever it is, is there going to be alcohol at this party, that the car is a great place to do it because there's a built-in ending or I don't know, an elevator ride, whatever that you sort of say on the way.

42:43So I want to talk to you about this. And I know it's a little uncomfortable. We're going to talk about it. But you're together with them in a situation that has a built in end zone. Like between now and my mom is going to drop me off at school. She wants to talk to me about vaping. But I know it's a five minute ride to school and that those are sort of perfect times for both of you to have

43:00Amy Wilson:the tricky conversations. And I will say from the future, someone is showing your kid porn before you talk to them about porn. Someone is vaping around your kid before you feel like having the vaping conversation. Someone is doing one of your kids friends is sexually active before you've had the sex talk with them. And yes, it is hard to get ahead of these things. And there is never a day where you wake up and you're like, you know what I really want to talk to my 11 year old about today porn. It's not going to happen. That day is not coming. And so you really have to. And I do think one very easy entree is use my parents trick is like, gosh, we got a letter from the high school and they're already talking about porn in high school and you're only in fifth grade like that seems great or they're already talking about in middle school and like it seems crazy to me but it's out there you can put it way out in a field somewhere and talk about it very kind of this is something i'm hearing over there right right out being like are any of your weird friends watching porn and what are you going to do if they show it to you like if you put it right on your kid they're going to be much less likely to take it than if you can kind of put it out in a field and be like, yeah, this is odd that this is going on.

44:13Amy Wilson:What would you do if that happened, you know, and make it more theoretical? Amy, not me, different Amy. This sounds like good advice. I'm not sure I understand it, but I think it's good advice. With teenagers, Amy says you should be the thermostat, not the thermometer. And that sounds so sage, but what does that mean exactly? Do you know? I think it means that you are not there to be like, you're doing this, you're doing that I'm observing and judging everything you're doing and I'm recording in a scientific way like you're this you're that you're this you're that you're helping them to self-regulate I believe that's the translation all right that like instead of I think that's right and I think that that's where I struggle with teenagers to some degree is like I see what you're doing I see what you're doing I see what you're doing I know what you're up to I see what you're doing and that in fact I need to be like, you seem to be having a hard time.

45:03Amy Wilson:How can I help you adjust that? And so I think that is very, very good teenage advice. We've had tons of good advice in this episode. I'm going to put the link in the show notes to the actual Facebook thread because this and so many of our topics come from our Facebook group, facebook.com slash groups slash what fresh hell cast. We talk about all kinds of funny, serious and in between stuff. And it's a great group to be a part of. If you want even more What Fresh Hell, you can sign up for What Fresh Hell Plus. We have an ad-free feed for all of our episodes, all of our back catalog. We do bonus episodes every single month.

45:41Amy Wilson:And you can sign up by visiting our website, whatfreshhellpodcast.com and clicking on the little picture that says What Fresh Hell Plus. I'll also put the link in the show notes for that in case that's too much trouble. You can just click the link wherever if you're listening right now. It's super easy. Let's make it easy as possible. Sign up for What Fresh Hell Plus for even more What Fresh Hell. And with that, thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next time. So long.

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