DEEP DIVE: Chelsey Goodan on How Parents Underestimate Their Teenage Girls

0:00Close your eyes. Listen to Monday.com. Feel the sensation of an AI work platform. So flexible and intuitive, it feels like it was built just for you. Now open your eyes. Go to Monday.com. Start for free and finally, breathe. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Amy. Today, I'm talking to Chelsey Goodan. Chelsea has been an academic tutor and mentor for 16 years with a particular emphasis on the empowerment of teenage girls. She speaks regularly to audiences about gender justice and serves as the mentorship director of Democracy, working to support girls from underserved communities into leadership positions.

0:42The book that we are about to discuss today is the USA Today bestseller, Underestimated, The Wisdom and Power of Teenage Girls, which has been recommended by Oprah Daily and Oprah's Book Club, which said, and I quote, if you have a teenage girl in your life, you need to read this. Amazon's editorial director chose Underestimated as one of her top five editor picks for best nonfiction for the month of March, Chelsea Gooden's passion to explore humanity's potential for Authenticity, Liberation, and Empowerment permeates all of her work, and I am so excited to talk to her today. Welcome, Chelsea.

1:18Thank you. So happy to be here. So your book starts with the stereotypes that teenage girls suffer under the weight of, often before they become teenage girls. For me, as soon as I became pregnant with a girl after two boys, I copped to it. I had preconceived notions. This is going to be hard. Girls are complicated. Other girls are complicated. This is going to be hard. Anybody who's had a two-year-old girl has had somebody walk up to them and be like, just you wait until she's a teenager, all that stuff. You're in for it. Yeah. And the shotgun jokes that dads are supposed to make and the mean girls that everybody dreads.

1:57There's so much negative, stereotypical stuff around teenage girls. Fear. So much fear. It's fear. Okay. So that's where it's coming from. Fear on whose part? On our part? Yeah, I feel like just in society too, they've created this fear around it that they are horrible to deal with and that they're crazy and mean and dramatic and that you're going to fight with them all the time or they're going to date some horrible boy that you're going to hate. Everyone kind of really dials into those stereotypes and propagates them, spreads them and tries to make light of it. But what it does is just creates, like you said, so much negativity.

2:35And then teenage girls themselves hear it and absorb it. And it doesn't feel good. It doesn't make them feel good about themselves. And I feel like it's a self-perpetuating cycle, as fear always is. The more you put it out there, the more it spreads. Rather than I am such an advocate with this book of trying to be their microphone and portal for their voices of what they want to say to the world, which is really wise. And we're underestimating them is basically what's happening. Yeah, that's what I wanted to ask you about because the title obviously underestimated and your thesis is that we are underestimating teenage girls and it's our loss and it's at their peril.

3:10But how does that sort of fear and negativity flip into us also underestimating them? Well, it quiets their voice. So we put our preconceived notions and fear and then they just shut down. We always talk about actually teenage girls closing off, shutting down, being like, whatever, and just not talking to you because fear silences them and negativity silences them that they don't feel valued. They don't feel respected. They don't feel heard and seen. They feel judged. If I were to say anything is that teenage girls feel so, so judged and that makes them be like, okay, whatever, I'm not going to even talk then.

3:46So you wrote this book to hand the microphone back over to them, so to speak. Exactly. And then based on your many years of working with teenage girls. Exactly. Because I'm in my one on one time. I mean, the things they were saying, I was like, oh, my gosh, the world needs to hear this. You're so smart. You know, they have such a good perspective on not only her own problems, but the world's problems, too. So what do teenage girls want us to understand that we've been misunderstanding? I think the whole book's about that. But let's start with some of the things that you're hearing from them. Right.

4:14Well, and each chapter is a different issue they face, but we all face, honestly, you know, whether it's people pleasing, perfection, feelings, sexuality, shame, self-doubt, right? Like these are things we all struggle with. And I believe that those wounds happen in our teenage years. You know, a lot of our insecurities really set up shop and get going in our teenage years and we carry them into womanhood and adulthood. And I'm very excited about what if we started addressing these earlier, we could change the trajectory for all women. I have a lot of adult women reading the book who don't even have daughters who are realizing how much they're healing their own inner teenage girl in this process, too.

4:51Yeah, that sounds really familiar. There's an author named Judith Warner, and she wrote a book called And Then They Stopped Talking To Me. I'll put the link in the show notes to that interview because it was a couple of years ago now. But that was the sort of thesis of the whole book that we come to our children's, mostly daughters, preteen and teen years with all of this trepidation and all of this baggage that is really us not having fully unpacked what happened to us in middle school. Exactly. Yeah, you just said it so well, because that's been my experience of our triggers, right? We all have our own triggers that are due to our own stories.

5:23And we tend to project that onto the girl. And she's a little like, that's not my story. Like, and then she's just like, whatever, shut down, close off. There's just such a shuts off communication so fast. Well, anybody who has a teenage girl would probably agree that there are times when they seem very interested in talking to you and downloading all sorts of things about their day. And other times when you're just getting nothing good, fine. Why are you asking me? You know, you get nothing. So as a parent of a teenage girl, how do you get if a teenage girl wants to be more understood by her parent?

5:55How does that parent get the teenage girl talking to her? Yeah, this is such a fantastic question. I'm totally here for it because I've definitely had an incredible amount of girls really open up to me and invite me into this rare space of trust. And so I'm trying to communicate that, those skills, those tangible practical tools out to the world. And first of all, it's also okay if a teenage girl doesn't share everything with you. It's a total normal developmental stage for them to have their own things going on. That said, I have learned that just listening and not judging is the first step. We're just like, hey, I'm just going to listen to you and actually say it out loud.

6:30Hey, I'm just going to listen. Like, do you want me to just listen while you talk? And I'm not going to come in with advice or try to fix it or anything. Like, I'm not going to try to slap positivity on it. And then she feels safer. And then when that kind of environment starts happening, I always say too, if you do follow up with, you always follow up with a question, you phrase as a question. So it invites just a genuine curiosity rather than what she often feels is like a secret agenda of you trying to teach her something or what you want her to do, control her in some way. And she can feel that.

7:03Teenage girls are so smart and they know the truth of things very well. And so the more you can frame, listen, don't judge, then phrase as a follow-up question, just like, okay, well, what do you think more about that? Or what do you think the solution is? I'm always about putting the solution in the girl's hands because they come up with way better solutions usually than I'm thinking. And it empowers her then too to also check in with herself and be like, wait, what do I think the solution here is? And she can start figuring out for herself what are healthy choices. And then affirm afterwards too.

7:36Don't again, jump in with your idea. Be like, wow, that was really smart. I hadn't thought of it that way. That was a cool angle. I hadn't approached it from that direction before. Just really specific affirming where she's like, oh, okay, I came up with a smart idea. My parent trusts me. My parent respects my voice in these conversations. And the more that dynamic is built out, the more I find she steps into her power and voice. I felt very called out in this part of the book in a good way. You know, the whole thing about having a discussion with your teenager, they have their detector for a secret agenda on the part of the parent is very highly tuned.

8:14Yes. But yeah, you know, often I have a secret, like, let's have an open ended conversation about what you're going to spend your time doing this summer? And of course, in my head, I'm like, it's A, B, and C, we're gonna have a conversation, quote, unquote, that gets us to you agreeing to do these three things with your time this summer. Right? Well, I got it. And you know, there's a radical honesty chapter. And I say use that as a tool too, because I'm always like, whoa, wait, I might have a secret agenda here. Like, I'll just call it out and say it. Amelia, I'm sorry. Hold on. I'm working to let go of this.

8:45But like, this is actually what I want you to do. But I'm really trying hard to approach you right now with an open mind and listen to what you have to say about this. You just actually say the truth, truth. And a girl respects that. She's always like, oh, okay, well, they're being real with me. So I'll be real with them. And I find that's very helpful. And then at the end of the day, what is the real goal is to connect and feel connected and with the girl. And she's going to like you as much as she likes herself through your eyes. And so the more she can feel like seen in her specificity and also like, okay, they respect me, they trust me, the more she's going to listen to you also, because she feels a part of the conversation.

9:27She feels respected. So if she likes that you are respecting her voice, she's going to respect your voice in turn. Can you say that again, that she's going to like herself as much as what? She's going to like you based off of how she sees herself through your eyes. And if she sees through your eyes that you respect her, that you think she's smart, that she has something to say that's important, then she's going to feel that and really rise to the occasion. I actually find she rises to the occasion with smarter ideas. And then she's going to listen to you more too because she really feels that respect, that mutual respect.

10:03So then maybe when you do contribute your idea of what she should do that summer, if you've given a lot of space for her voice first, she's going to listen. Makes so much sense. Okay, I'm talking to Chelsea Gooden. She is the author of the USA Today bestseller, Underestimated, The Wisdom and Power of Teenage Girls. And we'll be right back. You know, every parent can relate to being out of some crucial item and facing the horrible prospect of getting all the kids into the car to the grocery store to pick up more. And it's like, how badly, Amy, do I actually really need or want that milk? book. That's when it's time to think DoorDash, which I've always thought of as just for takeout, which takeout is also the savior of many a night for parents.

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14:16Yeah, I have thankfully seen a generational shift with Gen Z. Okay, so our older generations, there was indeed limited space at the table for women, right? Like they were only hiring one woman at that boardroom table. And we were taught at a young age to compete, whether it It was for a career or for a man. And there was just a completely different energy around it. Whereas with Gen Z, there is a media narrative of girls supporting girls, women supporting women, right? Like Taylor Swift has been like that. There's been a good amount of celebrities that have supported this narrative. And you'll see it with girls.

14:50They love to gas each other up and comments like, you're amazing. You know, they put tons of exclamation points, culture of girls supporting girls. And we're all still messy human beings that are all dealing with stuff, right? But this is where I've seen another cool difference is when there is a mean girl situation because things happen. Gen Z is so into mental health and psychology in a way that I've never seen before from a generation. They love learning about it and reading about it that I can take a whole new approach with them where I say, well, what do you think about that girl who's being the mean girl?

15:23So this idea of mean girls, I always laugh about it because it's not like girls came out of the womb mean. It's as if we've like decided that's just the way it's going to be, right? Right. Unavoidable. Right. Yeah. And no, it's a society that's quite harshly judging them, not making them feel emotionally safe. They put up walls in reaction to everything else. So I want to be fair to the girls themselves right now. And again, I'm always advocating for them where I'm like, yeah, no, it's not cool that everyone's just throwing you into this box. And but how do we deal with those moments of, you know, girls to girls, things not going well.

16:01And I will say there has been a beautiful generational shift with Gen Z where there is a lot more of an attitude of girls supporting girls, women supporting women. We've seen it on a media narrative with Taylor Swift putting that out there and a lot of big celebrities put that out there. And I can feel the difference because I was from an older generation that was that feeling of there being limited space at the table for a woman, right? That one job at the boardroom for that one woman. And we all have to compete for the job or all compete for the man's attention. That's what we were taught to do.

16:32Whereas girls these days are like, wait, what? No, like she's awesome. And there's a lot more what they call gassing each other up and, you know, even comments on social media. Everyone's always worried about the bullying on social media, but I see a lot more of social media comments just being like, you're amazing with tons of exclamation points. But when there is a mean girl situation, because we still are messy humans, another cool thing that I've seen with Gen Z is that they're very into mental health and psychology. And I can take an approach of activating their compassion. So I'll often say, what do you think that girl's home life is like, the girl who's being a mean girl?

17:08And they'll often be like, oh, I don't know, or dad's never around or mom criticizes her all the time. They often know like the girl's not in the best situation. And I was like, oh, well, what do you think about that? I mean, she might be functioning out of her own pain. She might not be in a good place and it's not about you. And she's trying to make herself feel better by making someone else feel worse. And it sucks. And the girl's usually like, wow, yeah, that does suck for her. And they get that separation of it's not about me. It's that idea that hurt people hurt people and that there's a cycle of pain that continues.

17:40And when you break it down, and from a psychology standpoint, the girls love learning that they love knowing about it and understanding mental health. And it's been really cool to see how quickly a girl can get into a compassionate place. And that's where again, I admire girls so much, we're underestimating them. Let's talk about the likeability. Another thing that I think is changing for today's teenage girls, that you need to be liked, and you need to conform versus that the ability to be authentic and be who you really are. I feel like that wasn't even available to me until I was well into my 20s.

18:15Well, I lean in hard with the book with this, right? Because I have the perfection chapter, the people pleasing chapter, and then I take us on a journey toward what is authenticity and the identity chapter. And yes, this is the space that matters because I do think there's still a ton of pressure on girls to be perfect and likable. And if anything, that is actually a root cause of a lot of their anxiety that we're seeing in girls' lives today. And that people-pleasing where you're putting everyone's needs before your own and kind of just saying, it's fine, it's fine, and just not really sharing your truth of that you might be struggling with something because they just want to be likable and come off as perfect.

18:53And the more I get in there with conversations where I'm like, hey, it's not fine. That sounds awful. Do you want to just talk about it? Just make room for their their feelings and space for it, for them to have displeasing feelings like frustration and disappointment and anger. You know, there's not a lot of room for girls to express that and women to express that. Right. So I try to make a lot of room for that so they can have space. And then you're right. Then what happens is they start connecting with their authentic self. That's like, what are my needs? You know, what do I like? Do I like playing this sport or would I rather do something else?

19:28And I love reconnecting that for them or not even reconnecting, connecting for the first time where there's a lot of space to explore all parts of their identity. You're talking about girls being angry and having space for anger. I mean, sometimes I'm thinking of women, I guess when I say this is often your anger will be expressed with tears or tears are part of it. And then that becomes a further sign of your weakness or at the very least, something that needs to be stopped and put back in its box as quickly as possible. Exactly. Exactly. Like adult women, right? We were taught how to really repress and stuff and contain any big feelings because, you know, the world is going to judge us for them as weak, like you just said, or all these different labels.

20:08So that's another part of this book is, you know, teenage girls are well known for their big feelings and they're judged for them. And I actually think all human beings have big feelings. We just get really good at stuffing them and we deal with them in a midlife crisis in our 40s with a therapist, right? Instead, you know, I like to, I find that when I just hold space for those big feelings that girls have it and I just reflect back like, yeah, that sounds awful. That does sound frustrating. That sucks. They're like, oh, thank you. And they relax and they're like, God, no one understood me, you know?

20:41And that's all you need usually is just to actually feel the feeling. You have a, I forget who it was, a neuroscientist in your book that said that a feeling is felt for about 90 seconds and that you just. Yeah, they found that truly just processing it takes about 90 seconds. If you really commit to actually feeling, it's really scary to feel big feelings, especially things like anger. But the more you can name it, like I have a feelings wheel in the book. And the more oftentimes our vocabulary is like, I'm sad, I'm angry, and we can't find the word. And I found the feelings wheel so helpful to get more clear when I landed on disappointment and realizing how intense and powerful that emotion is.

21:22I mean, like, oh, my gosh, I'm disappointed right now. And just letting myself feel it for that full 90 seconds. Maybe there's tears. Then it passes through you and releases and processes rather than, again, containing in your soul and oftentimes in ways of resentment and harmful ways. And when it's your teenage daughter having that difficult emotion, whatever it is, to let her have it for 90 seconds without trying to reassure or fix or right. Exactly. Not fix, not advise, not make it positive and tell her what's going on, too. I mean, she's into the psychology of it. Right. Like I'll be like, hey, actually, this is, you know, I've learned just letting yourself feel it for nine.

22:03And I'll put it in the I terms. Right. It's not like I'm telling her what she should do. There's plenty of shoulds coming at her. I'll be like, hey, yeah, when I feel hard feelings like this, I've learned. It just takes about 90 seconds to pass through it. I name it. And then you just model it rather than telling her what she should be doing. So smart. I'm talking to Chelsea Gooden, the author of Underestimated, and we'll be right back. For some of us, tax season is one of the only times that we look at our finances fully. And once it's over, well, that was terrible. And it is completely understandable not to want to think about it for another whole year.

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