DEEP DIVE: Dr. Amber Thornton on Finding Real Balance

0:00Heidi Raykeil:This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. The agents wrote the copy and managed the timelines, while our human creative director made sure it all made sense. Easy. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of Mother. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. And today we're talking to Dr. Amber Thornton. She's a licensed clinical psychologist and wellness coach and the founder of Balanced Working Mama with a mission to completely change the narrative of what is possible for millennial mothers by helping them to better balance work, motherhood, and wellness.

0:41Heidi Raykeil:She's also the host of the Balanced Working Mama podcast. Dr. Amber resides in Washington, D.C. with her husband and two little kids. Welcome, Dr. Amber. Hi, thank you so much for having me. So you are not only a mom of two little ones, you're also a psychologist supporting mothers. So motherhood is central to what you live and think about. But you didn't always think that you would become a mother yourself. Tell us about that. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That's such a great place to start. I actually never really thought that I would want to become a mom. And it was, you know, not because I didn't want children, but more so because this version of motherhood that I had seen growing up just looked really challenging, to be honest.

1:23And there was somewhere along the way I learned that being a mom meant that you had to really forego some of your desires or some of your dreams, your goals. And I had always been someone who was so ambitious, even still. You know, I always wanted to create things. I wanted to go to school. I wanted to be a learner. I wanted to read. And I had trouble seeing how motherhood fit in this lifestyle of me wanting to be a lifelong learner and me wanting to be ambitious, me wanting to start businesses, me wanting to. be a psychologist or be a professional. So that led me to think that I didn't want to be a mom.

1:58I would always joke with my family like, well, I'll just be the rich auntie. I'll come back and visit. You know, because I have a niece. I said, I'll be the rich auntie. I'll come back and visit, you know, but motherhood is just not for me. And that really changed. Luckily, somewhere along the line, I met my now husband and really started to see the vision for how life could be, you know, with me and my ambitious self, me wanting to do all the things, me wanting to achieve my dreams and how I get to be a mom. And so that's where I am now, you know, trying to figure all that out. That definitely was my story early on.

2:31And as a result of this journey that you went on, you focus a lot on balance. Balance can be sometimes a little bit of a controversial word in motherhood. Some people feel it as this, okay, it's another thing on my to-do list on top of raising my kids and trying to cover the health insurance and do my job. Now I'm supposed to also find balance and maybe get a pedicure or something. I don't quite know what it means. Talk to us a little bit about what your vision is of balance. This is great timing. You know, I actually just had a conversation with my husband the other day about this term, you know, because to be quite honest, before I started Balanced Working Mama, I did not know that the term balance was so controversial.

3:15And I started to learn more and more after I went deeper into it that, you know, many women were very triggered by this idea of balance. And, you know, as I started to really listen to them a little bit more and understand why it was exactly what you said, it feels like, you know, it's another responsibility. You know, not only do I have to be a good parent and be a good mother and I have to, you know, work, then I also have to have to find time for myself. That feels like an obligation. and there's a lot of pushback because a lot of women just have trouble really finding the balance between all the things that they want for their lives or all the things they want to do.

3:49And so I'm learning now that that is so controversial. And the way that I have been conceptualizing balance in motherhood, you know, I've been really trying to help people understand that when I say balance in motherhood, I actually do not mean showing equally in all the aspects of your life because that is not possible all the time. It's not possible at all. You know, some days, I am more of a mom. Some days I have to tell my kids, look, go get the tablet because I have some work to do. And so that balance is not necessarily what I mean when I say balance in motherhood. And instead, what I am now seeing what I have meant this whole time is really an experience of joy, an experience of fulfillment and satisfaction.

4:29Also, an experience of healthiness. Wellness is what I mean when I say balance. And, you know, when I teach moms about balance, there are these ingredients, I call them, that are needed. Things like, well, we have to have really strong boundaries in order to have the experiences we want in life. You know, we have to learn how to prioritize our wellness in order to have a healthy body and a healthy mind. You know, we have to learn how to be outside of motherhood. And what that means to me is learning who I am when I am just to myself. You know, who am I outside of motherhood? You know, we have to learn how to really unlearn this idea that my sense of worth is tied up in how well I can make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or, you know, how well I can do all these things that only deal with motherhood.

5:16So, you know, I teach moms these small little ingredients that we need to implement into our life in order to have an experience of joy, more fulfillment, more satisfaction. And that, to me, is what balance means.

5:26Heidi Raykeil:You know, there's another thing about balance that occurs to me. Balance sounds hard, right? Balance sounds like a tightrope. It sounds like hard work and something I might not be good at and something I might fail at. I might fall. And I think like once you are balanced, you're talking about joy, right? Standing on a tightrope is the opposite of joyful to me. But of course, we're talking about getting to something that is very worthwhile. Does it have to be hard and difficult in a struggle first? Like do you need to do something hard to get to the ease and the joy? That's a great question. And, you know, the one thing that actually was coming to mind to me as you were asking that is that balance looks different for everybody.

6:02everybody. And for some women, what I have learned is that their journey to that feeling or that experience of balance is a little bit more easier than others. For some women, they do have to do some really hard things. And it might be big things like end a marriage or, you know, really have very difficult conversations with their families about what they are no longer going to do or, you know, really start to have more vulnerable conversations and, you know, maybe even start going to therapy so that they can really start to unlearn some things that are no longer healthy for them. You know, those things are hard.

6:36And that, though, is necessary for them to have the balance that they need. You know, for other women, it's really as simple as making a schedule for when you're going to work out, you know, and once they do that, then they're like, ah, this feels so much better. And now I'm on a journey where I can see how I can have more balance. So let me do some other things. And so balance is so different for everybody. But for some women, it will require a really big leap. Can we talk a little bit about boundaries? Because one of the things I like in your work, I think this is a step that so many people don't think of, that they think of balance as something that is all my work.

7:12and it's up to me to figure out how to balance the need of my mother-in-law and my husband and my boss and my trainer or whoever these people in your life are, that it is my job to somehow take all those voices in and put them in the right place. And one thing that you talk a lot about in your work is boundaries and how much that changes what your picture looks like. So can we drill down on boundaries a little bit? We just need them. Have them. Yes, have them. Have them, need them, use them, divorce them, keep them. You know, even with that example, like you said, you know, trying to maintain a balance so that you can meet the needs of your partner, meet the needs of your in-laws.

7:57And some of these people, we don't need to meet their needs. You know, they can just meet their own needs or, you know, we have to put in some boundaries so we can really figure out, OK, well, what's mine and what's theirs? You know, what's my responsibility and what is not? But also to teach other people, OK, well, this is no longer her responsibility is actually mine. Right. And so boundaries are two way street. They are for other people to really learn what they can expect from us. But also there for us to to kind of keep us in check to help remind us, you know, like, hey, that thing over there is actually not your responsibility.

8:29And it is fine that it is not yours in this in this bucket. This is what's yours. Can you give us an example of a boundary? Because it's another word I think we use sometimes. And it's like, does it just mean saying we're not going to two families for the holidays? What is an example of a boundary that really you've seen somebody set that helped them rebalance? And I actually will use an example from my life, if that's OK. Looking at the holidays, I recently set a boundary for myself and for my own family. You know, my mother, my brother, my aunts and uncles that, you know, because right now in this season of my life, when I have a three year old and I have a one year old and I live seven hours away from everyone else, that traveling during the holidays is really just not the best for us.

9:14You know, because what I learned, you know, especially the Christmas holiday, the Thanksgiving, that time of year, usually there's more stress for me. There's more stress for my family. There's cold and flu season. Flights are expensive for a family of four. And I just did it. Don't do it, people. And during the pandemic, I missed out on all of the free flights for my two year old. So now I have to pay because he's three. No, it's just think about that. That's a bummer. Yeah, very much so. And so that was a boundary, though, that I had to set because I knew that if I continued to force myself and my family to travel to Ohio every year for Christmas, that would not mean happy times for me.

9:55It wouldn't be happy memories for me. It would just be more stress, more anxiety, which is not good for me, my body, my babies. And so I had to set that boundary. And, you know, on the other side of that, there maybe was some disappointment from my family because they love to see us for the holidays. and even for me, some guilt. But I had to really set that boundary for myself and for them because ultimately I knew that me making this decision was a better situation for me and my family. And so that was one example of a boundary I just set this past year, helping people understand that, unfortunately we will not travel to Ohio for Christmas or Thanksgiving holidays.

10:32However, what we can do is travel during the summer. So that's one example. And again, it looks different for everybody, You know, but I think the boundary is, you know, you making a decision about something that either doesn't feel good for you, doesn't serve you, and, you know, just stamping it and communicating it and really standing firm in that. We are talking to Dr. Amber Thornton, and we will be right back. Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be in closed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name.

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14:46But if I don't go, I will feel this unrelenting guilt that will ruin the holiday anyway. I have a job that I am taking on too much at and I will sometimes recruit my spouse and say, you have to tell me not to do this. I know I'm going to feel pressured to do it. You have to tell me it's okay to say no. And you have to kind of be the bad guy for me. I mean, my spouse is not in a position to say you are not allowed to do this. But I mean, for a lot of people, maybe more so women who are busy trying to keep everybody happy and see that as our role. On the one hand, I see that we might be happier setting the boundary.

15:21But on the other hand, how do I get out of this feeling of like, oh, I'm just going to feel so upset the whole holiday that so-and-so is mad at me? You know, I talk about guilt a lot with moms that I work with and that guilt, you know, my philosophy on guilt, especially mom guilt, is that 99 percent of the time it's really just an illusion. You know, it's not true. It's a feeling for sure. It's a strong feeling. It's a feeling that you might have a very visceral reaction to. But, you know, my work as a psychologist, what I teach my clients even is that we can have a feeling and it doesn't always reflect the reality of what's actually going on.

16:00Right. That is so smart. I have really never thought about it that way until you just said that, that the guilt is something that I'm creating. It's not inherent to the situation. Mm hmm. Exactly. And especially if and this happens a lot, too, especially if there has not been a family member that has like expressed any, you know, negative feelings towards you about a decision that you've made, you know, then absolutely. This is just a feeling that you're having, but it's not necessarily a reflection of the reality. Sometimes we do have family members that express some disappointment or, you know, some upset feelings about a boundary that we've set.

16:34But even then, we have to really remind ourselves that it is OK for them to have a feeling about a decision that I've made for myself and for my health or for my family. Yeah. And, you know, we just have to remind ourselves that. But, you know, to that first point, though, guilt 90 percent of the time for moms and for women is really just a feeling that we're having. But it is not a reflection of what's really, really going on, because a lot of the times when we make decisions for our families or ourselves, we're doing it in the best interest of at least our families, you know. And so that is always typically a good thing.

17:08You know, on the flip side, you said if you go, you'll be overstimulated. That's real, you know, and you can see the consequences. You feel that that is actually really happening. you being overstimulated in a situation, having trouble regulating your emotions, your feelings, your experiences. But guilt is different. I really like to help moms understand that most of the time when you're feeling guilt about a decision that you've made for your own well-being or for the best of your family, it is a feeling. And that's really as far as it goes. Oh, I'm putting you on speed dial, Dr. Amber. I needed to hear that.

17:41Heidi Raykeil:Even if you do get specific negative feedback, because sometimes you are going to get pushback, What I like about what you say about balance is that it's missing the claws. For example, I just saw a friend today saying, you know, in the new year, I'm doing a Peloton. I'm committing to do a Peloton four times a week because I'm noticing I'm more cranky. And when I exercise regularly, I can show up as a better mom for my family. And that's a good end. But the balance you're talking about is like, I do a Peloton four times a week because I want to do a Peloton four times a week. And it makes me feel better, not dot, dot, dot.

18:13Heidi Raykeil:So I'll be this partner, mother, whatever that my family deserves. Exactly. That isn't why you have to put this stuff in place. It can be just for you. For you. And it goes back to that joy that you'll have when you do that, that experience of fulfillment, because you know you're taking care of yourself and that satisfaction, that deep satisfaction, that deep wellness that we all need. Those experiences let you know that you're having some balance or you're experiencing some balance in that moment. And this reminded me a long time ago, I was training for a marathon. I mean, a long time ago now.

18:44But one of the pieces of advice that my little book said is don't attach secondary expectations to running. Like if you make running about losing weight or you make running about anything other than running, that you're robbing yourself of the experience of running and finishing a marathon, which is a huge accomplishment. but that if you somehow pass the finish line and you didn't lose the 10 pounds you thought you would, then it's a failure of an experience. And I think that your work gets at so much of the, we do this to ourselves, those secondary expectations and this idea of if then, and I'll do this because it will lead here and just skipping the joy that lives in the place of I'm going to do this thing.

19:29Yep, absolutely. And you know, sometimes that was such a great point And then what it also made me think of going back to how we were saying that we're balanced can be very triggering. And I think sometimes it's because we assume that, OK, if I take time for myself, that means I have to make it up somewhere else. And I also like women and moms to understand you actually don't. You really don't, you know, because you taking a moment for yourself is actually not taking away from your family at all is contributing to your family. And so that just you having a moment to yourself, you deciding to do the Peloton four days a week, it's not taking away from your family or your children at all.

20:05It's contributing to you, it's adding to you. And that is enough. That's sufficient. And that is balance. And also, it seems to me that taking moments for yourself or doing the Peloton or, you know, whatever it is that you do may not lead to you being the world's most ideal mother, wife and Zen human being that ever existed, but that there's value in doing it for itself versus for these magical results that somehow. And I do think that's where the balance thing comes in. It feels like there is this very set number where everything will be in balance and then like the sun will come out and it will be like walking into us and everything will be in color and it will be perfect.

20:46And that's the illusion of balance. That's not really what your work is about. Exactly.

20:52Heidi Raykeil:Can I ask you about millennial moms? Because millennial moms are a particular focus of Busy Working Mama. And you are a millennial mom. But I want to know, how do you define millennial mom? And why is that group of particular interest to you? Yes. Someone actually just asked me on my Instagram, what age is millennial and why millennials? And so this is fresh in my brain because I just answered that, you know, millennials technically are born. And I think now I can't remember the exact dates, but I think it was between 1996 and 1981, something like that. So mid 20s to about early 40s are the age group that I really like to focus on.

21:31And I like to focus on millennials specifically, one, because I'm a millennial, but also because I think that there is just a very unique experience that millennial mothers are having. You know, we are the generation that grew up right at the peak of this new Internet and social media and Facebook. Like we're becoming moms in a period where past mothers like just have not experienced so many things that we've experienced. And so what I found is that moms are doing motherhood very, very differently. And because of that, they need extra support because, you know, they might go back to their mom maybe to seek support or help or, you know, want some validation for a decision they're making, whether it's for their own well-being or, you know, themselves as a parent.

22:16And sometimes other people don't get it, you know, because motherhood is so different now. And so that's why I really like to focus on millennial motherhood, because I think we're also in a time where, you know, wellness is actually being appreciated and acknowledged. or the idea of mental health. You know, I think we're one of the first generations of mothers who are actually really embracing this idea of mental health and therapy and not only for ourselves, but for our kids too. And so these are just all new experiences that really warrant a lot more support because things are so different now.

22:52Heidi Raykeil:We're talking to Dr. Amber Thornton, and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Your summer runs just got a boost of energy in Lululemon's Shake It Out shorts.