DEEP DIVE: Dr. Jo-Ann Finkelstein on Raising Resilient Girls

0:00Amy Wilson:If you want to wake up with skin that looks even better than before you went to bed, reach for Osea Skin Care. I mean seconded. Osea's clinically tested formulas are designed to deliver visible results. And with a full lineup of body care products, they have something for everyone. Osea's anti-aging body balm is a liquid silk body balm that combines the lasting hydration of a lotion with the firming power of a serum, leaving skin smoother, firmer, and beautifully supple. I apply the anti-aging body balm right before bed. I've been doing it for about a month. It makes my skin feel silky soft. It's really great.

0:38And I have to say, my skin definitely looks and feels smoother and more hydrated.

0:43Amy Wilson:Get a spring-worthy glow with clean, clinically tested skincare from Osea. And right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide with code FRESH at OseaMalibu.com. That's 10 % off your first order with code FRESH at, I'm going to spell it, O-S-E-A-M-A-L-I-B-U. OseaMalibu.com. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're talking to Dr. Joanne Finkelstein. She is a clinical psychologist educated at Harvard and Northwestern University, an expert blogger for Psychology Today.

1:30Dr. Finkelstein's work has been highlighted in the New York Times, the Harvard Business Review, The Atlantic, and many other publications. Today, we're going to be talking about Dr. Finkelstein's new book, Sexism and Sensibility, Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World. Welcome, Dr. Finkelstein. It's so great to be here. So you start this book with a story that in the particulars was yours, but in the general, I thought, oh, I've had this moment too. And I think many listeners of this podcast will recognize it themselves, that you as a girl encountered something that seemed like unfair to you, like, hey, why are things that way?

2:08They shouldn't be that way. And you ask your mom about it. And almost immediately, you get this sense that this is something that you're apparently not supposed to feel or at least talk about. Can you tell us about that moment and what you learned from that moment? Yeah, I was around eight years old and I was baking brownies, I think, with my mother in the kitchen. And I noticed a piece of mail that said, Mrs., my father's first and my father's last name. And I thought, well, that's weird. I knew enough to know that Mrs. was for a female, but why would everything about her identity be erased? And so I asked her about it.

2:47And she sort of, you know, in my memory anyway, she kind of stiffened and just sort of said, well, that's the way it's done. And, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a certain amount of pride in that because getting married and being a missus was a big deal, was your main identity, especially back then. I had a sixth grade nun who taught me grammar and she taught me everything I knew. Sister Raymond, a male name, by the way. but I remember you know raising my hand in class and saying but why can it be everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion why is it just his and it was the same kind of thing because it is because that's the rule that's what it is you don't say his or her you just say his and everybody understands you mean his or her and there's the end of story right with this sort of such an erasure yeah and I remember also being sort of left like huh does nobody else think that's weird like okay I guess it's only me that thinks it's weird and that's how girls are left is your argument that really drives this whole book, that when we don't explain things to girls, they're left being even more baffled than they were before.

3:48Yes, there's a sort of crazy making piece of it where you have to erase yourself, but everybody's saying, well, that's not erasing yourself. That's just how it is. But at the same time, I think all of these women that were in our own lives and us for our own daughters, when our daughters come to us, maybe we all have this idea that we're not supposed to say, like, you're right, that's unfair. Because is that a battle worth fighting? And what are we supposed to do about it? Is that what sort of colors these conversations? Like, what's the point? My mother or your mother or Sister Raymond in my sixth grade English class, should they have taken a different tact?

4:21What might they have done differently? Yes, they should have. I mean, I don't like to hold previous generations. So, you know, everybody's a product of their generation. And I don't think that they had permission to think in those ways. And they also had to make choices of how to bring you up and make choices in the name of expediency, like maybe she had a class to run and she didn't want to get into sexism with you. But these days, we want better for girls. And there's more permission in the culture to question things. And so we want to be able to prepare girls without scaring them, right? And so a lot of parents will skirt these issues or rely on girl power because they're afraid of instilling fear in their kids or making them feel inferior.

5:07And so the whole book is sort of all the ways that we can honestly talk with girls without scaring them.

5:14Amy Wilson:Let's talk a moment about this idea of scaring them. What is frightening to people about these ideas? Is it the complexity of having the conversations? Is it the realities behind what's going on? Where does that fear come in? Because I don't think we think a lot about fear as a driver around our reluctance around these conversations. That is such a good question. I think part of the fear is if you say girls are not always treated fairly, or girls have to be careful because they can be hurt when they're out on the street, or they can be yelled at for things that are beyond their control. And so I think there's that piece of it.

5:57And I also think that there's this fear of just questioning our own gender biases, right? We've put up with so much for so long that it would require us to sort of tap into all the ways that we've internalized gender bias and sexism. And so we just, it's sort of this icky topic and we kind of skirt over it and stay on the surface of girls are strong, girls are powerful, and you should always know that. But that doesn't prepare them for the unfair or unsavory behavior that they're going to encounter out in the real world.

6:30Amy Wilson:Yeah. And I do think that sometimes the answers, the intellectual answers and the day-to-day answers to me seem a little bit mismatched, right? I went to a women's college. I was raised by a very feminist mother with some very feminist traditions. And now I'm raising a 12-year-old who I have a default to say, like, it is not your responsibility how people react to you and hopefully giving strong feminist messaging to my own daughter, but at the same time trying trying to navigate a world of safety in which when I see her dressed in a bikini top going to a mall, I feel like, wait a minute, that doesn't feel like a safe choice.

7:13Amy Wilson:And I don't believe that other people's reaction to her is her responsibility. But I also feel this very practical concern that that outfit is going to bring some attention to her that she's not ready for. And so I do find these very complicated. I get lost in it. And so it's easier to not talk about it, right, and send them out the door because you don't want to blame her. You're not sure what to say. Yeah, I guess that's right. Speaking hypothetically. And so you don't say anything and they go, they get on the subway wearing something you're not sure they should be wearing on the subway for their own peace of mind, if nothing else.

7:46Or you do say something and it gets and it feels like you're kind of aligning with the dominant culture and slut shaming her. That's it. And it causes problems in your relationships when it's not her fault. So it is really complicated. And those are the kind of arguments that I want parents to lay out for kids, right? I want them to say just what you just said, which is, it isn't your responsibility. And yet, we live in a culture where this happens. And so we're trying to balance you having the autonomy that you deserve to make the choices you deserve with your safety. And so when you're on the train, I'd love you to just throw a sweatshirt on.

8:27I'm going to quote something from the book, Dr. Finkelstein. You said, I see female patients, this is in your practice, I see female patients who feel responsible for things outside their control. Girls whose anxiety, depression, or daily struggles are caused or exacerbated not by what they do, but by the way they're treated because they're girls. And I thought, yes, that's exactly what we're talking about here. The world is harder on girls. Girls do have depression and anxiety, perhaps at higher rates than boys, because of things that are outside their control. But all of us sort of pretending that that's not true anymore.

9:02There's not somebody doing the trick to make those things go away, which maybe is what we've been trying. Right. And so what is the path forward, though? Because, I mean, somebody would listen to this and say, well, I don't want my girls to think they're victims. Why bring this stuff up? I'm playing devil's advocate here. We're moving so far beyond this. We don't have to talk about this stuff anymore. Why are we still talking about this stuff? Girls can do anything. that what happens when we offer our girls that very well-meaning response? Yeah. And I think that actually speaks to Margaret's question about why we don't, because we don't want our girls to feel like victims.

9:33We don't want them to feel inferior. And so we're always balancing the darkness with hope, right? As parents, when we have to sort of bring in this kind of icky news, it's not fair, but we are fighting for a better world and we getting closer. And even when there's backlash, there's some hope to be drawn from that as disheartening as it can be, because where there's progress, there's always going to be backlash. So if there's backlash, we know that we're actually making progress. We're not going back home into the kitchen and giving up our rights. We're fighting for them.

10:07Amy Wilson:And I think we've had the conversation a lot on the podcast. And I want to talk a little bit about what happens when we don't have these conversations and that gap that gets left and how young women especially fill that in for themselves. And we will be right back after this break. You know, every parent can relate to being out of some crucial item and facing the horrible prospect of getting all the kids into the car to the grocery store to pick up more. And it's like, how badly, Amy, do I actually really need or want that milk? That's when it's time to think DoorDash, which I've always thought of as just for takeout, which takeout is also the savior of many a night for parents.

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13:20Amy Wilson:A release is waiting. So Amy often says on the podcast, the pain is in the gap. And like, it's the places where we don't want to go or the distance between we want the world to be one way and we have to have these difficult conversations. And so I think the idea and what I pulled from the book, and we've talked about this with talking about racism with our kids or other difficult conversations with our kids, that if we don't have these conversations, sometimes we think our kids will just stop thinking about it. But instead, if we don't have these conversations with our kids, something worse than that happens.

13:55Amy Wilson:And so what is it that happens when we try to just skip these conversations with our girls? I think they start to internalize the gender biases and sexism that they face, right? And so even girls today who are so much more aware of sexism in the culture, and the cultural ambivalence toward women, they're at risk of internalizing it just as much as anybody else because it's kind of an identity politics, like my body, my choice. But it's one thing to be able to say that intellectually, and it's another thing to experience a pressured moment during a sexual encounter or catcalling on the street. Well, I think the idea is so we get away from these conversations, but these conversations are powerful.

14:42Amy Wilson:Being able to talk these scenarios out in the realities out with our daughters is where they find that power in those situations. Is that right? Yes. And if it's a topic that you've brought up in the house, and they'll bring it up to you, they'll have somebody to talk to, or they'll be able to support their friend. And the thing is, we're playing the long game. It's going to hurt when they get some negative comment or some slut shaming at school. It's going to hurt, right? But we're hoping over the long game that they become very critical consumers of their culture so that they can start to recognize when they've been treated unfairly, when they're being interrupted.

15:22So we're just sort of helping them recognize the very male-centric culture that they're brought up in. Let's talk about entitlement, because usually we think entitled is the last thing we want our kids to be, at least as we generally think of the term. But you say that girls need a healthy sense of entitlement and too often don't have it. So explain what you mean by entitlement and how parents can help our daughters get it. Well, to put it into concrete terms, by third grade, girls start to ask for less than boys. So one study found that when kids are given the opportunity to negotiate for their favorite stickers, the older girls ask for two fewer than the boys.

16:05But here's the kicker only when negotiating with a male. And that reflects the same gender gap in negotiation that we see in adults. So what lessons are we imparting to girls, either unconsciously or directly, that lead them to believe that they deserve less, especially with regard to speaking up, respect, and money? For one, if they speak up, they're often interrupted. For two, we teach them being liked is more important than being respected. And we just don't talk to them about money, or give them as much money as we do boys.

16:39Amy Wilson:And I think that some of these conversations, and it's certainly conversations that I'm having more as an adult than I had as a child, for sure, about roles and gender roles and how these things play out. And I remember in my 20s, like, oh, the boy on the diaper box is holding a briefcase and the girl on the diaper box is holding a broom. And these were certainly not conversations that I had as a young person. Then I see for my daughter, a lot of girl power messaging, right? Like superheroes and fierce and feisty and young women and female heroes. And where does that fall? Is that the right kind of solution?

17:18Amy Wilson:Or does it play out in kind of an empty way? I don't I'm asking genuinely, like, I don't know, is it helpful to give those girl power messages? I think it can be helpful for giving girls like a can-do attitude and self-respect for the female gender. But it's also a mixed message, right? Because at the same time, in not so many words, we're teaching them it's their job to make everyone happy, to be liked, to swallow their anger, and so on. So, there's this sort of very narrow range of acceptable girl voices that kind of straitjackets girls and also undermines how they're regarded. So in the book, I outline four important voices that we want to, above and beyond girl power, or in addition to girl power, we want to make sure that they have a voice of integrity, which basically is understanding it's as important, if not more important to be respected than it is to be liked, a voice of resistance, allowing them to resist, to be angry, a voice of ambition, a voice of authority, and then what I was saying with money, a voice of economic self-sufficiency.

18:25Those are things we really can cultivate as parents if we're thinking about it.

18:30Amy Wilson:I think those parameters are so clear because I think some of us are very strong in certain areas and that having these different parameters, I feel like I was raised very much like money and having your own money and this is important and having your own. It was a lesson that I was taught. But the idea that it was okay not to be polite and to say no and to put your own needs first. I still talk to my sisters about this as a middle-aged person. We were very much, I think, raised to be pleasing to other people and polite. That was a very important value in our family. That was important for good reasons in certain situations.

19:11Amy Wilson:But I'm still unlearning a little bit of like, I don't have to be polite to people who make me uncomfortable. And I find that watching my daughter that as a very empathetic and naturally empathetic person, but I don't know where to put the voice in that says, you don't have to hurt yourself to help other people. Like I love the instinct to help others and to be kind, but I want you to put your needs in first. Is that just something that has to happen over a thousand conversations? Sometimes I feel lost on that one. I think all of it has to happen over a thousand conversations. But right, we don't want to quell the instinct to be helpful and kind.

19:51And like, those are good things, right? The problem is we teach girls to weight other people's comfort and perceptions over their own. So there's a story in the book where I went through this exact thing with my daughter. So my daughter, who had been up all night with growing pains, was lying on the front porch, just supine, clearly exhausted and sweating. She'd just maybe gotten home from school or had been on a long walk. I can't remember which. And her friend was over. And her friend said, Oh, you want to walk me home? And my daughter was lying there with her eyes closed. And she's like, Sure.

20:29Let me just go in and get my shoes. She had thrown her shoes off. And she comes inside and I'm sort of like, you know, you don't have to walk her home, right? And like, if you're too tired, it's okay. And you're allowed to say that. And it's like doing it in the moment doesn't always work so well. And she just sort of looked at me and was like, I'm going to walk her home. She wants me to walk her home. And so she did that. And like, fortunately, walking someone home three blocks away is not the end of the world. But, you know, and so she came home and we were able to really take it apart. And it started off with her explaining like, well, I don't want her to be mad at me.

21:04And so we had a whole long conversation about what her fears were, and what would happen if she did say no, and what would happen if she didn't say no, and now she was expected to always say yes. And so yeah, there are these ways that you're just sort of making these small dents to say, it's okay sometimes to weigh your own needs as much as your friends' needs. Or at least they're part of the conversation, right? That it doesn't have to be like, greed is good and you come first and forget everybody else. It's all about you or be a doormat because that's what being a good daughter is all about.

21:37It has to be, your needs can enter the chat at some point in the conversation or at every point in the conversation. That's a tough balance. And I've watched my daughter become increasingly able to say no or to come to me with a dilemma when she is not sure, like, I don't really want to go to this party because I just don't enjoy really loud noise and crowds, but I don't want to hurt this person's feelings. And so, you know, at least she's coming to me and talking it through and like considering her on me. We're talking to Dr. Joanne Finkelstein. Her new book is Sexism and Sensibility Raising Empowered, Resilient Girls in the Modern World.

22:16And we'll be right back. If you want to wake up with skin that looks even better than before you went to bed, reach for Osea Skin Care. I mean seconded. Osea's clinically tested formulas are designed to deliver visible results. And with a full lineup of body care products, they have something for everyone.

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