DEEP DIVE: Ericka Sóuter on How to Have a Kid and a Life

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0:31Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret. And today I am talking to Erica Souter. She has over 20 years of journalism experience and is a regular contributor on Good Morning America and other national broadcast outlets. It's her job to speak to parents across the country to stay on top of the issues, controversies and trends most affecting families today. Her work appears on Cafe Mom, Mom.com, Parents, The Bump, and so many more sites that reach millions of parents monthly. Her book is How to Have a Kid and a Life. We're interested in figuring out how to do that.

1:10So welcome, Erica. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. You talk in your book about the myth of modern motherhood. And I'd like to start there because I think it's a myth that will sound familiar to some. but you have some sort of unique takes on it. What do you define as the myth of modern motherhood? Well, there's this idea that we when you become a mom, you have to give up everything that makes you you. And that's not the intention going in. It's just this role we kind of find ourselves in where, you know, we have to put on the back burner all the things that consumed us or that we loved or that made us who we were.

1:49You know, we had romantic relationships, we had friendships, We had career goals. We had hobbies. We had interests. And for a lot of women, those seem to evaporate. And I just wanted to kind of dig into that and find out why. Why do we believe that this is how we're supposed to live, how we're supposed to be mothers? Because it's overwhelming. I think it's the reason why some of us are so burned out and so tired. Yes, we love our kids. We wouldn't trade them for anything in the world. We always have to say that. Every once in a while, we would trade them for like a really good, I don't know, night out maybe, but would generally ask me, wouldn't trade them.

2:24I think this is so true. And for me, I had my first child when I was 37 years old. And I think Amy and I have discussed this because she started younger. And I sometimes wonder whether it's a factor of having started so late that I have this feeling of, I did not have the experience of, oh my gosh, my life was empty. And then Jesus threw a baby down a rainbow into my arms and my life was better. My life got significantly worse after having kids in a lot of ways. And yes, I longed for them. Yes, I wanted kids. But I think this idea of children as a transformatively positive only experience is extremely misleading and misguided.

3:11It's dangerous for us emotionally, to be honest. Yeah. Talk more about that. Yeah. I mean, my book in the cover, there's a stork dropping a bomb and not a baby. And there's a really good reason for that. And it's because we're kind of taught or indoctrinated to believe that having a child will complete us. Having this family completes us. And this is kind of like the end all be all to what will make us happy. And that is just not the case. I interviewed hundreds of women. And yes, there were some who felt like, no, this is all I want to be. This is what I want from life. But most women felt like there was something more that they wanted, that having kids through their life into a chaos, they weren't prepared for.

3:51And one of the issues that I have is that when we do say we're announced we're pregnant and we're planning for a baby, it's all about stuff. It's like the right crib, the right baby carrier, the right changing table, all this stuff. And we just don't prepare for all the other parts of our life that change from work to our relationships with our partners, to our relationships with women who don't have kids, to how we feel about ourselves and our body. I mean, how to make friends as a grownup, because you do have to start making more friends who have kids, you know? And I just feel like all those topics are kind of ignored because, of course, when you announce that you have a baby, it is about being excited and prepping for the baby.

4:33But prep in our culture means stuff, right? It means getting the right crib, the baby carrier, the stroller. I mean, God, there are like so many different strollers out there to pick from. The matching the colors is a big thing, right? Like what are your nursery colors? I was like, I don't know. I was the same way. Let's go with yellow. I don't know. Yeah. But I feel like we are not preparing ourselves for all the other major shifts in our lives. And that's why I don't write about colic or temper tantrums or getting your baby to sleep. I write about all the changes and shifts that happen in our lives that no one talks about.

5:06Because if you work, your career changes. And even how you're viewed at work can change depending on what kind of environment you work in. I mean, I would say definitely does change in general. I mean, there must be workplaces where it's seamless, but not many, not many where the work doesn't change because you had a baby. Yeah. And so many moms had told me, working moms told me that, you know, when they got back to the office, it was like people didn't expect them to be as dedicated or as reliable. And that's absolutely not true. Research shows that moms are actually more organized. We're better at juggling different tasks.

5:40We're more motivated because we have this other life we have to get back to. But one mom told me, she walked in and she was a really high level marketing executive. And she felt that her colleagues felt that her IQ dropped just because she had a baby. I was working a temp job years ago, and I got a bouquet of flowers for my very high powered boss. And it said congratulations on the baby. And I kind of laughingly went into her office and I said, well, someone got the wrong person or whatever. She thinks you're having a baby. It was a congratulation on the baby, like one of those funny things with the balloon sticking out.

6:22And she said, yeah, I haven't told anyone. You shut the door. I'm nine months pregnant. I'm having a baby on Wednesday. And she had completely hidden it from everyone. And we were a pretty small office. And I was the only person who knew that she had a baby on Wednesday and came back to the office on Friday because that's how she felt she had to approach it because she was a managing partner who was bringing in all the revenue. And the last thing she wanted was and I remember at the time thinking like I was a young, you know, way before having kids, I thought, well, I have a psychopathic person in my life now.

6:56But looking back, I think I totally understand it. It was probably 20 years ago and maybe things have changed. But the idea that people, oh, well, we're going to give her a break. We don't want to send her a lot of work. We don't want to, you know, and the income would drop because they were trying to do her a favor of not giving her business and her company business because she was having a baby. Yeah. I mean, that's real. And this affects, you know, a lot of women are the sole owners or the higher earners in their families. And it really does affect us. And it can be devastating. Even you can be turned over for promotion because they don't believe that you're going to be able to handle the amount of work or your travel is reduced.

7:31Or, you know, just in general, just you not being kind of a part of that club anymore of someone who's kind of moving up the fast track. And so a question that you return to all the time in the book, which I really, really like, it's something that we try to ask a lot on the podcast is how did we get here? And it's a really, first of all, why is that an interesting question to you? I mean, I think I know because I know why it's an interesting question to us. Why is that an interesting question to you? One of the first things I did when I interviewed anyone for the book is I asked, you know, tell me about your mother.

8:04What was she like growing up? And of course, the first things that come out of people's mouth, oh, she was so wonderful. She was fun. She cooked great meals. And she loved being a mom. She loved taking care of us. And I was like, well, let's know. And then I'd ask them, well, talk about what she was like when she wasn't taking care of you or like when you saw her when in private moments when she didn't really think you were paying attention or looking. And then a lot of the comments were like, you know what, she worked two jobs to take care of us. She was always so tired. There were things that she didn't get to do that I know she wanted to do.

8:32I mean, one woman told me that her mom wanted to go back to school and her siblings were so upset about it. Her mom decided not to do it that, you know, my mom never did anything for herself or those kinds of things. And then I'm like, I talked to them about their lives and they're repeating some of those same patterns in their lives. And so I wanted to get to the point of like, we see this, we see this all sacrificing model that we're taught is normal. And there was just like, so it's kind of learned behavior. We're learning that this is what moms do. They put everyone before themselves. And my point is that comes with, that creates huge issues, not just for you, but for your family.

9:08Like research shows that a kid's social emotional development is more dependent on a mother's happiness. It's not how much time she spends with them. It's not whether she works inside the home or outside the home. It's not how much money she makes. It's whether or not she's happy. And I want people, I want moms to start putting their own needs on top of that huge to-do list we always have. I want to really drill down on this because it's in bold here on my notes for our interview. Research shows that the most important factor in a child's social emotional development, this is all we ever talk about on this podcast, right?

9:47How to have our kids achieve self-esteem, be happy, be well-adjusted children, is a mother's happiness. And I feel like this is something that we chase all the time, like there's the right camp or there's the right nanny or there's the right school setting or there's the right meal, something you put on a plate that is going to help our children achieve this happiness. And that this factor, drill down a little bit more on what that looks like. It's mom's happiness that mostly makes kids feel safe and happy themselves. Right. It's really so I think the problem that we have is and I've done this and so many women I talked to have done this or primary caregivers have done this.

10:33And it's that, you know what, as long as my kid is happy, that's the most important thing. Right. That's how we all feel. That's what we all say. That's all we want is for our kids to be happy. But the reality is, if you're not happy, if you're not feeling fulfilled, if you're not feeling like you're taking care of yourself, your kids sense it, they know it, they hear it, they feel it. And I think that we just kind of dismiss this idea. We haven't been taught that self-fulfillment is important because we're, I think we're also taught that like being a mom, it should be the most fulfilling thing that you do.

11:05And I want people to understand that it doesn't have to be the most fulfilling thing that you do. Of course, it's incredibly important. It's going to be one of the most important things that you do. But for some people, they can also have a career or they can have hobbies or they can have things that they do that fulfill this other part of themselves. There's so many moms I talked to who kind of described this kind of emptiness, right that's kind of like whole that they had that there's so much more they wanted to do or so much more that they think they're capable of but they just feel like well they can't do it right now they have to wait till their kids are adults and I'm like oh my gosh you're gonna wait like 20 years to do something and that's the you your kids will know the best is those 20 years yeah and I also ask moms who were kind of reluctant to kind of do things for themselves or put themselves first I'm like okay well if you're feeling burnout out, you're feeling depleted, you're a little bit unhappy, right?

11:57Do you want your daughter to feel that way as a mom? Would you want your child or your children to experience this? And I think that kind of really drives it home, right? We're so focused on our kids' happiness, right, when they're little. But what are we teaching them about how to be an adult? And that happiness is not a mysterious box that we have to find out there somewhere. That happiness is right in front of us, but we're so busy sometimes looking for the box that we miss it, I think. I really love that point. Yeah. And I think so many people don't know where to start, right? And that's one of the things.

12:28So like at the end of every chapter, I have this like new to do list, right? This is how you begin to start to figure out what it is that you want or need or what's missing from your life. And it was just like a basic thing. I asked every person who read the book, just once a year, ask yourself six questions. Let's take a break. And when we come back, we're going to hear these six questions because they are really interesting. I am talking to Erica Suter and we'll be right back. Get business done with the new American Express Graphite Business Cash Unlimited card with unlimited 2 % cash back on all eligible purchases, unlimited 5 % cash back on flights and prepaid hotels booked through American Express Travel Online, and a flexible spending capacity that can grow with your business.

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13:55Hear that? That's now Crispy and McCrispy Strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce. Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Okay, before the break, you were saying at the end of each chapter, this is one of those books, and we love these kind of books. It's accessible, it's well organized, so you can kind of go through and understand what you're reading in each chapter, and then useful takeaways, which is what we're all about on the What Fresh Hell podcast. And so let's go through your six questions that kind of drill down on this issue that you want people to ask themselves every year.

14:34Right. And if you're struggling or you're just kind of feeling that there's something more that you need or you don't know what it is that you need, I think you need to ask yourselves these six questions every year. It could be spring, it could be in the new year, whatever. But the first is, am I nurturing my marriage or partnership? The second is, is my career headed in a good direction if you have a career outside the home? Number three, do I have supportive friends to turn to? Number four, do I feel good about myself? Number five, do I nurture any of the passions I had before kids? And number six, have I created a social life that has nothing to do with my children?

15:11Those are great questions. And if you said no to any of these questions, I think you should reevaluate your priorities and make yourself a priority. And so for some people, of course, it's their partnership or their marriage that's giving them, you know, that they feel that they're neglecting or that doesn't get enough attention. For others, it's their social life. But what I'm saying is all of these things, these were the major issues that I felt like most moms were struggling with and where they needed to focus more on. And it's the kind of thing that we often say, I think sometimes it feels to people like more work, like now I have to worry about myself.

15:49And you say in the book, which we've talked about, self-care becomes the kind of thing, it feels like a task. It feels like, oh, now I've got to schedule a manicure on top of the baby and the not sleeping, whatever. This is whole life care stuff. It's not really a manicure. It's not really a massage. It's a little deeper than that. And it's not an exit on the highway. It's the thing that makes the highway smooth and clear, sort of. Yes, that is exactly right. I love the way that you describe that. Because I think people, it's not just a one-off. It's not like a once a week spin class or like you said, an occasional manicure, pedicure.

16:29This has to be a part of who you are, right? So, I mean, I remember interviewing women. It's like, well, how do you, women who have found the space for themselves, one woman, it was kombucha brewing. And I didn't even know you could make kombucha in your house. That would not be on my list. God bless her. another one she took back up horseback riding and what happens is something does sacrifice right there are only so many hours in the day you do have to take away a little bit of time to focus on yourself but like you know when i have my time three days a week i have coffee with my close friends right that's something that i've made a priority for me it helps me get through the week it's fun i look forward to it we have a great time right so you know for sometimes like it's like, okay, does that take away from the time I need to play matchbox cars with my five-year-old?

17:17Yes, but he's going to be fine, right? We kind of think that we take away any time for our kids, they're going to suffer. No, they're actually going to be better off if we feel happy and more fulfilled and not so depleted and burned out. We have to do the things that kind of uplift us and make us feel whole in order to be the kind of parent and partner that we really want to be. And to be clear, one thing that's great about this book, it gives what we call the 30 ,000 foot view, not the every single tree in the forest view. That is a very mixed metaphor. But will your five-year-old say, don't go, I miss you, I don't want you to leave when you go for coffee with your friends?

17:53Most five-year-olds probably will, right? They may cry. And so your immediate reaction is I am damaging this child by taking care of myself. But what these questions and so much of the book does is help you say my long term happiness from the forest of you is much more important than the everyday I feel a guilty feeling when I leave my child. Yeah. And I think that if you can start doing this, if you create this space for yourself, your family is going to work around it. Right. Yes. They'll get used to it. They'll get used to it. And it's not, you know, I'm not recommending someone like ditch their family and go to Hawaii and like sell drinks on the beach or, you know, or anything like that.

18:38I mean, if that works for you, OK, we're not standing against it. But, you know, exactly. But these are things like, why can't you take a class? If you can work out the childcare, and you can work out the schedule with your work, taking a class at night that you've always dreamed of. So these are things like I want people to start planning toward it. And I actually talk about like, making baby steps. Like you can't just tomorrow walk into your family and be like, I'm going back to grad school. Bye. What you can do is like, so you start making a plan, like who can watch the kids two nights a week?

19:08Or how will I deal with meals? Or how will I work it out with work? Or, you know, can you have to sit down and ask yourself these questions? And sometimes we're so overwhelmed. Like I wrote the book that I felt I needed and I didn't have when I was a new mom. And it's like, those are always the good books. Yeah. It's like, where do you start? And you start by just sitting down and making a plan and going step by step. Use your resources. How many do you have a neighbor who you can trade childcare with? I talked to women who have this kind of collective of they trade, like everyone has a night of the week where they take the other's kids.

19:40There's like four families and they do this. And I was like, wow, I've never, you know, that works for them. But you have to find out what works for you to help you get the life that you really need or the space that you really need to take care of yourself. I think that's right. And the other thing I like about it is I do think that there are seasons where this is a lot harder than other seasons. So I had three kids in four years at 37. And I had been a working person and very much independent. And I felt so hemmed in. And there were three years in there that were extremely challenging. The logistics were just very overwhelming.

20:19But one of the ways that I planned was, as soon as I get the kids in preschool, then I will take a class one day a week, or then I will. And so even though I was so tired that the I mean, I would have slept through any class I took, it was not a season where I could basically have a weekly meeting with my husband, go on date nights. My husband and I would go on date nights and we would just stare at each other with bleary eyes. It just wasn't enjoyable for us. But I like this idea of planning because it says in one year, everything will be quite different. And at that time, I know I even planning the things I wanted to do.

20:54I want to go back and take a writing class. I want to get back to my writing, whatever it happens to be, that it gives me agency, even in the hardest periods, that there will be a time when I can get back and that having a notebook full of plans is much more hopeful than just sitting around and being like, I'm too tired to do anything. I guess this is my life now. Yeah. And that's what it is. I wanted to give people hope and to also know that there are millions of moms struggling with this. No one is alone in this. And sometimes we have this feeling that we are alone, or that, our particular struggle is unique and that we should just stop complaining and just be happy.

21:31And that's not true. So many people are out there trying to figure out what is that. I mean, I wrote an entire chapter and the title is called Motherhood May Not Be Enough. Yes. And it's so hard for people to admit that. Some people have told me, you're so brave to write something like that. But I wrote it because it's true and it's okay. Doesn't mean you don't love your children doesn't mean that they're not the most important contribution you've made to the planet, but there could be another contribution you want to make to the planet. And that's really cool too. For me, I love writing, right?

22:04I love writing. I love interviewing people. I'm so lucky that my job is something that makes that fulfills me and makes me feel good about myself. And I think that there are other things that people can do, whether it's a career change, whether it is just some personal goal. And one mom, she runs marathon. She just goes around and runs 5Ks. wherever she can find them. And it makes her feel good. It's her time away. It's her time to think it's something that it's a personal goal. It makes her feel like she's achieved something. So it's going to be different for every person. And so in that chapter, whether it may not be enough, I have a list of questions for you to ask yourself.

22:39So you can help start to figure out what that thing is, because it's not going to be the same for you and your best friend or your best mom friends. It's going to be different for everyone. And I love that point that you make. it's not a prescription. It doesn't work for everybody. So when you're listening to these kind of conversations and you hear, as I do, getting up and running a 5K, I'm like, I would rather do, I can't think of the things. I'd rather the kombucha brewing. Maybe shoving knitting needles in my ears would be more. That doesn't sound appealing to me. That sounds like work. But the bigger point that Erica is making is that it's not that this is the solution.

23:16It's that you're taking the time and care to look for your own solution and the thing that makes sense to you, I think. I want to take a break and come back and talk. You've done a ton of work around working moms, and I want to talk a little bit about that when we're back. I am talking to Erica Suter, and she is the author of How to Have a Kid and a Life, and we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes.

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