DEEP DIVE: Gabrielle Blair, THE KIDS ARE ALL RIGHT

0:01Gabrielle Blair:At DSW, we ask the important questions like what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay, the right shoes can make or break an RSVP. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with Designer Shoe Warehouse. Head to your DSW store or DSW.com today and let us surprise you. Hello and welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today we're talking to Gabrielle Blair.

0:40She is the founder of designmom.com and the author of the New York Times blockbuster bestseller Ejaculate Responsibly. Today we're talking about Gabrielle's new book co-written with her husband Ben Blair. The kids are all right, parenting with confidence in an uncertain world. Gabrielle and Ben are the parents of six children and currently live in Normandy, France. Welcome, Gabrielle. Thank you so much for having me. So happy to be here. You're kind of like Margaret and me in that your kids are older. They're not little anymore. We like to say we come from the future to tell you everything's going to be okay.

1:16And this book, just like all that, this book is a course correction that offers a really hopeful reframing, I think, of what it means to parent today. Is that what you set out to accomplish with this book? Absolutely. You've been in the mom blog space for a million years. I know you guys know the deal. I've been doing this for 18 years, and the entire 18 years has been parenting questions from readers and followers, and they're just stressed out. Parents are so stressed out. And so much media aimed at parents is really pushing that stress. You're supposed to be stressed out. If you're not stressed out, your kids are not going to successfully make it to adulthood.

1:56And I know you guys have seen the same thing. And so the intention of this book, we kind of got talked into doing a parenting book. It was not on my goal list or anything. And we kind of got talked into it. And really, the only thing that made me feel like, okay, yeah, I really want to do this is if I could in any way relieve parenting stress, that if I could help someone feel less anxious about these decisions that I understand feel extremely high stakes because we're talking about a human being when we're talking about raising a whole other person. So I get the high stakes nature of it, but after you've parented for as long as I have and gotten five of our six to adulthood so far, the youngest is 14, you can really look back and understand like, Like, oh, so much of our worry was completely not just a waste of time, but also damaging our relationship with our kids.

2:48And I think it's important, and I like that you acknowledge right away, that we aren't nervous and feeling stressed about this because we're idiots or because we're dummies or because we're just too into ourselves and we're just spoiled. It's because we have been given a job, as were our ancestors and foremothers and everyone before us, that is very, very important and is filled with a tremendous amount of uncertainty and does have uncalculable dangers that are lurking there. And so it is because I think some of the writing around motherhood can default a little bit to like, just calm down, mom.

3:32You're so uptight and it's all your fault. And it's like, wait a minute. I like to start by acknowledging that this is as hard as you think it is. This is as scary as you think it is. But I think the knobs of control are what we try to focus on because a lot of times we're trying to correct for stuff that maybe we're on the wrong path of or maybe we just don't have any control over. So we can let it go because it's not helpful. Right. And I really hate this whole idea that we're blaming parents for the stress that they're feeling. I really strongly believe that the bulk of parenting stress or the hardest parts about parenting have nothing to do with our personal decisions and our systemic issues.

4:19We don't have paid childcare. We don't have universal basic income. We don't have flexible work schedules that accommodate parenting. Like there's so many issues that make parenting even harder than it would naturally be. Because again, it's this high stakes thing. We're raising a human being. But our culture makes it exponentially harder in so many ways. And so if you're feeling the stress as a parent, I feel like I start out, one of the first messages in the book is, it's not your fault. The fact that this is so hard is not your fault. This is a systemic issue more than a personal issue. You're not wrong.

4:54And it's not a personal weakness if you're like, I wish I had more help. This is really hard. That's not a personal weakness. That is like, yeah, you should have more help. This whole idea that we've created this culture where we're all parenting in isolation is just absolutely bizarre and, again, makes things so much more difficult than it needs to be. And yet this is our reality and we're all having to navigate this. The way that you have parented your kids and the paths that they have chosen educationally are divergent from the norm and from one another. But I think it gives you sort of the unique ability to be a voice of there is no one path.

5:31So tell us a little bit about your family for people who might not know you and your kids. Absolutely. So parents of six, as has been mentioned, our oldest is 27, youngest is 14. And really, our kids kind of span Gen Z. So I feel like I've been raising Gen Z from, you know, top to bottom. And yeah, a very different educational path for each of our kids and yet really successful paths. If you're interested in things like top schools, top colleges, that's been part of our lives. But we've also had high school dropouts and skipping senior year to move across the ocean and be an au pair and missing of very few graduation ceremonies in our family, even though we've had lots of people finish college and finish high school because they've just taken these bizarre paths.

6:16And we talk a lot in a book, a recurring theme in the book is the reliable path to success. And I call it the myth of the reliable path to success. And it is sold hard in America. We go hard on everyone's got to get on this path. And you know what it looks like? It's okay, get signed up for preschool as soon as the kid is born because you've got to get in the right preschool. And if you don't get in the right preschool, what's going to happen if you don't get in the right elementary school? And then by the time you get to high school, you've got to take the right AP classes. You've got to be in the right sports.

6:49Is your kid playing an instrument? Like you've got to be on top of all of that in order to apply to the top colleges because because that is what a successful life is. And we're really fed that hard and it's pushed so hard. And a lot of parenting stress is when we see our kids go off that path in any way. They came home with bad grades. They're not on the reliable path to success. They didn't get into the school they were hoping for. They didn't get the internship. They're off the reliable path. And there's such a draw, which I totally understand. I've been drawn to it. We had to basically be physically taken off it before I could really let it go because we don't have a parenting guidebook.

7:26We don't have an instruction manual. And so this reliable path to success idea is just so compelling. It's like, okay, it takes care of everything for me. If I just keep the kids on this path, they'll be fine. Everything will work out. And of course, it's a lie. It's a total, it is in fact a myth. I don't know how reliable it ever was, but it certainly isn't now. We all know kids who were top of their class, graduated valedictorian, got a perfect score on the SAT and still didn't get into their top pick college. There is no guarantee. And even if they did go to the college, there may not be a job because the jobs are changing so fast.

8:02The future is changing so fast that the field they're interested in, say they're super into journalism.

8:06Gabrielle Blair:We don't know how many journalism jobs are going to be left. You know, they're dwindling swiftly, which I mentioned in the book makes me sad. Like we need journalists, but I'm just saying the world is changing so fast that even careers that seem so reliable just aren't anymore. And so relying on this reliable path to success, not really helpful overall, but also can be extremely harmful because we're pushing these kids, this wide variety of kids onto this one path and saying, you've got to fit this path. And it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit for so many of the kids. And instead, what we've learned is, oh, there's literally millions of paths to satisfying, successful, fulfilling adulthood.

8:46Millions of paths. And all you've got to do is just find a path that fits your kid. You don't have to fit your kid to a path. You can find a path that fits your kid. And that's not to say like, oh, you don't ever have to worry about anything. You don't have to do it. They're feral. Let them raise themselves in the woods. Not quite there. Yeah. Right, right, right. You have to seek out opportunities. You have to sort of say, okay, if this high school isn't working for them, what is? If my kid's not going to get into a good college? What are the alternatives? Can they try community college? Is there an internship?

9:14Is there a trade school? You certainly have to look at other opportunities, but you don't have to just assume my kid's only going to be happy and I'm only going to be a successful parent if I keep this reliable path to success. And I wonder even about, I like the idea of many paths, but the idea that you have to find the right path for your kid is also, I think, sometimes you have to just support your kid while they try a bunch of paths. Like I think even we have less of a role than even finding the path and putting them on it. Absolutely. It's really looking at the kid in front of you, actually listening and looking at this person in front of you, not yourself as a kid, not imagining that they're going through what you went through.

9:59They're a different person, not imagining some kid you thought you would have, but this actual person in front of you and supporting what they need. So some of these kids are going to be like, I've found 30 different paths and this is the ones I'm interested in. And you can say, okay, well, my job is to help you narrow it down. And other kids are going to be like, yeah, I don't even know where to start. And you're like, oh, you need more guidance. Great. Let's hit the library or internet or talk to other adults or whatever might work. We had a daughter come to us. She was like the most involved high school person, you know, captain of the cross country team, great grades, just so, so involved and come to us the summer her before senior year and say, yeah, I don't want to do senior year.

10:37I'd like to move to France and be an au pair. This is out of the blue, just like what, what in the world? But it had a full plan, knew the family she was going to au pair for, knew the arrangements, where she would live, what it would cost, like had this whole plan. And we're looking and we're going, she knows what high school is. She's a great student. She's reliable. She's, you know, there's nothing about her that we're worried about. Okay, we should take this seriously. This is something she has really thought hard about and wants to do, even though it's new to us. And it's, again, listening to the kid that's in front of you.

11:05And I can tell you that daughter went on to graduate from Berkeley. Just because she stepped off the path doesn't mean her life is over. It's all destroyed, you know, which I know it can feel like that anytime they step off the path, but it's just not true. We're talking to Gabrielle Blair and her new book with her husband, Ben Blair, is The Kids Are All Right. And we'll be right back. It's easy to feel sluggish in the winter, colder temps, darker days. when I hit that slump mid-afternoon, I know that it's time to drink some Drip Drop. Drip Drop is doctor-developed, proven fast hydration that helps your body and mind work better, which is exactly what any busy parent needs.

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15:13And I think, again, they're not making it up. They're not bad parents that are making things harder than she probably ED'd the school. And there was a lot of focus put on that because you're told to do that. And then this ridiculously restricted outcome that doesn't really matter for her success is really important in the moment. And then it causes pain. And then it causes disruption between that kid and her parents that was optional, that didn't have to exist. So talk to us about how the reliable path to success gets between you and your kids. So one of the things that we don't talk about in parenting, and really just doesn't come up, and I understand why, is that you're going to be a parent to a kid that's 18 plus, way longer than you were a parent to a kid that was under 18, right?

15:56Like you're going to have a relationship, assuming you both live to a ripe old age, you're going to have a relationship for another 40, 60, 80 years, people are living a long time. And so obviously the literature, our focus as parents is really laser focused on those first 18 years for very obvious reasons. Those are intense years. They're physically intense. They're mentally intense. That's when there's so much of this person is forming and growing. Totally understand. But you don't want to just ignore those future 40, 60 years and your stress with your kids right now, the stress you have with your kids right now, pushing them to a path or having like expectations that, again, are not even really built in reality at all, that they can't really live up to and may not even understand what those expectations are, can do just real damage.

16:47And there's a trend I see, I don't know if it's a trend or if it will be long lasting, but I see it on social media a lot where now adult kids are basically ostracizing their family or saying, you know, no, they're cutting ties with their families because the relationship was so stressful and difficult. And that would just, I mean, I can't imagine anything more heartbreaking, right? I just can't even picture how devastating that would be. And yet I understand where these kids are coming from. You listen to these parents talk and you think, yeah, I don't want to hang out at your house. You're not saying nice things to me.

17:20You're not encouraging me. You don't believe that I'm a good person. You seem to really dislike me as a person. And so then I'm thinking, how do I do the opposite of that, basically. How do I make sure our home is a home base for my kids forevermore, however long they need it? If they need to come back at 25, at 30, at 35, whenever, that this is a place they would want to be, that they feel loved and supported here, that they feel respected, that they have autonomy, that it wouldn't be a bad thing to be home, especially for certainly holidays visits. We want them home as much as they want to be home.

17:55But also, because again, we have this very uncertain future in front of us. And the idea that your kids could just move out and get their own apartment and just be independent forevermore will work for some people and just won't for a lot of people because it's a different world now. Well, just I think that relying on the path, staying on that reliable path to success is a lot of hard work. And you also say like, it has to be hard all the time. It has to be super hard all the time, right? Locking it down. And that that can actually really be counterproductive to your relationship with your kid.

18:24Totally, totally, and totally unnecessary. And we know that we're so compelled by this reliable path to success. And yet we know it's not true because we talk to other adults, right? As adults, we talk to other adults. And every one of us can think of people in our lives who are very happy, well-adjusted adults who did not follow this reliable path to success. They did not go to a prep school. They did not go to a fancy college. Maybe they didn't go to college at all. They took a million different paths and yet they found fulfilling adulthood. And so we know that it's not the only path, but again, it feels just so compelling because it feels so safe.

19:01It feels so, if I just keep to this path that somehow all the other parenting stress will dissolve. And it's not true because forcing this kid to a path that may or may not fit them, and in most cases won't fit them because people are so different, doesn't relieve parenting stress. It causes more parenting stress. You're just butting heads with this kid who's like, I know you want me to play the piano. I don't understand why. And I don't like it. Like, well, I don't like to play the piano. Why am I doing this? And really just get frustrated. And I think as we, our lens, Amy and I both live in the Northeast US and there's a lot of focus, I think, particularly in this area on four-year colleges, particular names of colleges.

19:44And I I think as I travel around and have family in different areas of the country, the expectations can be very different. I mean, there may be places where there's less of an expectation to go to four-year colleges and there's more of an expectation to join the right branch of the military or quarterback the football team. And like there's no one who is free of these expectations, although our expectations may be different depending on our backgrounds. And so where is the line, though? And how do we think about it in terms of I don't want my child to be locked into anything, but I might have certain children who I'm concerned are not doing enough, who are coming home, spending a couple too many hours on screens, are happy, content.

20:33I'm not talking about a depressed kid who's locked in their room, but just I worry that you don't seem to have an interest. And I don't know that it's because I need you to go to Harvard and therefore I need you to be running the 86 different clubs. But I still have a feeling that you should be doing a little bit more than you are. And that's maybe just not hanging out on Roblox with your friends, which you seem, by the way, really happy doing. It's good. It's really fun. You're loving life. Like, I'm not worried about you. But should I be worried about the bigger picture, even though I don't maybe care what that picture looks like?

21:08So I would argue that no, that this voice in your head that's like, hey, maybe they should be more ambitious. Maybe something should be happening here is our American weird morality around working. And if you are not ambitious, and you are not busy, and you are not working all the time that you're somehow less moral. You're less of a good person. And again, we know that's not true. We know that's not true, but it is so compelling in our culture that it's hard to let it go. You know if your kid is thriving. And if they're thriving, thriving for them may not look very busy. Okay, great. And just because they're not busy now or not particularly passionate about something now doesn't mean they won't be in the future.

21:49That's not how that works. Like, I'm passionate about certain things sometimes and not other times. That's just, I guess, human nature, right? Where our interests wax and wane. If your kid seems happy and they're growing and thriving and you really don't have any worries, I don't think we need to say, ah, we should probably add in one more extracurricular. We need to just do one more thing. They're happy and not stressed out. Why are we changing that? Like, why are we messing with that? That's terrific. And it doesn't translate to this is what their adult life will look like. It doesn't translate to, well, they'll probably just live in our basement and, you know, be high all the time if they're not really busy right now.

22:26That's not a path. I mean, that's not like your kid seems well-adjusted in high school. So therefore, and not stressed out. So therefore they're going to be a loser as an adult. Like it's not a thing. And so, and you know, what does the loser as an adult mean? Like what is it that is in your head as successful adult? And again, this is where we have to look at the adults around us and go, okay, there's a lot of different people that I consider are successful. There's a lot of different people that I consider happy and my kid could take any of these paths. It's going to be okay. I love that answer.

22:54Like that's a very radical answer, I think. I mean, I think it's really interesting and I mean that in a good way, but is there, I feel like when we have these discussions between Amy and myself, just talking things out, it feels like, I think my childhood, we were home, we were playing baseball with the neighbors, we were out and about, we were doing things. I do worry that free time becomes screen time and that screen time is a net negative. So like if I felt like, well, they're just home reading books, I feel sometimes like I'm fighting the screens. I'm not just fighting the nothingness. So what do you think about that?

23:34Because I like the answer of don't add anything if they're happy, but I do feel that there is, I think I can get on board with not being busy is morally neutral and like hanging out is totally fine but I don't think I can get on board with like six hours of Roblox is morally neutral. I understand. So screen time is this thing and it's, we're all having to learn how to manage it and it's not just our kids, it's our own phones. We're all trying to figure out like how much is too much, what's okay, what if my job is literally Instagram which is my job right now? How do you manage that? Every human being is trying to figure this out right now.

24:10Phones are universal to 8 billion people. Okay, if screens aren't going away, what can we do in our family to make screens constructive, creative, and like where I'm not sad about it? Because if my kid is reading on their Kindle and they're getting screen time, reading Adam Green Gables, I'm fine with that. If they are FaceTiming with their cousins, awesome. Love it. So happy about that. If they are learning a new tutorial on YouTube, on how to make 3D lettering on the iPad. Amazing. Fantastic. I'm so glad they've got that. There's so much that can be constructive. And can we waste our time on screens?

24:45For sure. So if there's an actual worry, you have to deal with that. Like if you've got a kid that's not getting enough sleep and you're like, I think screens are the issue. Okay. Well, there's plenty of things you can do. You can make the charging station in the parent's bedroom. They check in their screen at night. They pick it up fully charged in the morning. But you may discover that your kid is still not getting enough sleep because it wasn't the screen. It was, they're having some stress with a friend at school or like they're having growing pains and they're in actual pain. And the screen was like helping them like fall asleep.