DEEP DIVE: Julie Lythcott-Haims on Becoming An Adult

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16:50Heidi Raykeil:So Julie, in your new book, which is called Your Turn, How to Be an Adult, you talk about the definition of adulting as being sort of itself problematic, that it's based on sort of markers of adulthood that were set in place like 100 years ago and which have become outdated. Can you talk about that a little bit?

17:07Julie Lythcott-Haims:Yeah, absolutely. The old markers were in this order. You are an adult when you finish your schooling, get a job, leave home, marry and have children. And that is a very gendered, a very heteronormative, a very 20th, 19th and 18th century view of things. Things are different now in so many good ways. Yeah. As I've said, And adulting is really a mindset. It is, I know how to do the things or I'm gonna try to figure it out. It's, I want to. That is, I'm not interested in a vertical relationship where someone else is caretaking my every moment. I'm interested in doing for myself. And it's having to.

17:44Julie Lythcott-Haims:That is to say, some of us grow up so privileged that we don't have to do anything for ourselves because there's a person or two or a whole team of people who are employed to look after us. we can have all the money in the world and lack that ability to really, at the end of the day, take care of business because we've never had to. And this is where there's this beautiful irony. People raised in more challenging socioeconomic circumstances can emerge with far greater capacity to be adults, take care of business, solve problems, make choices, cope when things go wrong. Why? Because they've had to.

18:22Julie Lythcott-Haims:And I want to underscore this point for those raising young kids, be mindful of the ways in which if you do have socioeconomic privilege, be mindful of the ways in which you may be pampering your child's life a little too much so they don't end up kind of knowing how to do anything. They're going to be that 20-year-old who's out in college or out in the workplace who is less capable than kids who came up in a harder family circumstance. And you don't want to do that to them. Don't let your privilege make your children weak.

18:54Angela Santomero:I want to put a finer point on this idea of adulting because it has become such a, almost a buzzword at this point. And you sort of see this whole thing of like, oh, these dopey millennials need to take adulting classes and learn how to fill out a checkbook. Like, we're talking about something a little bit bigger than that kind of meme form of adulting.

19:16Julie Lythcott-Haims:Absolutely. I mean, millennials created the meme and created the verb adulting. They were the first to say, I don't know how to, I don't want to, I'm scared to. And my book is most definitely for them. But you can learn how to fill out a checkbook or change a tire on a YouTube video. And so while I give a nod to those basic things in the earliest chapter of the book, I am in this more existential realm of adulting is agency, I can do the task in front of me, or darn it, I'm going to figure it out. Resilience. I can cope when things go badly. I can be with my feelings and honor that and think through what I could have done differently.

19:57Julie Lythcott-Haims:What have I learned and get back up and keep going? And it's about character. There is more than me in this world. It is not just about me meeting my needs. I have to be conscious of how I interact with my fellow humans. So that's one major, although there's not, that construct isn't sort of how the book is organized. that is probably those are the three takeaways if you were to say like what are the three things you got to focus on i would say that but i would also say this humans are key to our survival so our relationships with people turn out to be the greatest predictor of our longevity so this is now i'm citing the book friendship by lydia dunworth in her book she talked she bases it on scientific studies that show the people who live to be healthy into their 80s and 90s, it wasn't about their cholesterol score in their 50s.

20:49Julie Lythcott-Haims:It was about the quality of their interpersonal relationships in their 50s. So this book is saying, don't just focus on your work. Don't just focus on your salary. Don't just focus on what you have been taught matters, like the number of followers you have, or did you make a singular noteworthy achievement? No. Can you be in rewarding, rewarding mutually rewarding relationship with other humans? Can people count on you? Can you count on them? Do you have someone you can call in the middle of the night? Do you have people rooting for you? Are you rooting for others? These human relationships we have turn out to be essential to our thriving, to our wellness, and to our longevity.

21:31Julie Lythcott-Haims:So this book really leans into, you got to take care of the people around you and be cared for by them in return, this sort of symbiosis, this we need one another. We are inherently a social species. And the more isolated we get from community, from family, due to a pandemic or due to a 21st century, which is very technologically intersected, but often, you know, we're not making time for that just kind of casual connection with a friend sitting on a couch, you know, or over a meal, We're too busy. And so this book is inviting us to return a little bit to those older ways where we engage with each other more synchronously, more deeply, and more meaningfully.

22:19Heidi Raykeil:You talk in the book about the false allure of the lockstep plan. This really dropped in for me because I have a senior in high school right now and talking about what he's going to major in in college. He doesn't know. One parent thinks that that's fine and one parent is like, but if If you don't major in the right thing, the next 10 steps aren't laid out yet. Can you talk a little bit about the false allure? And is that something that young adults today themselves have? Or is it more that their parents have that and they don't?

22:46Julie Lythcott-Haims:So the false allure of the lockstep plan is sort of it's false for two reasons. One, we can plan all we want and we should. Setting plans and goals in motion is how we reach our wildest dreams. But we have to, I say in the book, you know, we plan God laughs. I'm citing a Yiddish phrase. that's an English translation of, which is to respect the fact that so much is out of our control. And so, you know, you think I'm going to go to this college, I'm going to major in this, I'm going to go to this grad school, I'm going to have this job, I'm going to meet this person, and then we're going to have a kid.

23:16Julie Lythcott-Haims:And so like, awesome, and be respectful of the fact that so many things can get in the way, be able to adapt and move and shift and go to plan B and plan C, if plan A doesn't eventuate. The other thing is, yes, too often parents are the ones saying, oh, there is a lockstep plan. And by the way, it should look like this. In other words, they are mapping out the major, the college, the career. And I'm here as a former college dean, where my job was to root for my students to find that inner voice that was saying, you know what, I'd really like to do with this life if it was up to me, here's what I would do.

23:53Julie Lythcott-Haims:I was rooting for them to let that voice be louder and louder and louder in their own heads. And another key element of this book is you are an adult when you can say to that family member, you know what? I know you love me. I love you back. I know you want the best for me. I think I have a sense of what that might be. And I need to go give it a try. Even if you don't understand it, even if you don't believe in it, even if you scoff at it, parent, it's my life. And with all due respect, I need to try to make my way. That is one of the most profound things a human can say to themselves and then out loud to the parent.

24:32Julie Lythcott-Haims:And you're trying to say it in a respectful, loving way so it doesn't turn into this combative argument. But my book is full of stories of humans who have held to that, who have said, no, no, no, this is what I want. I know you don't get it. I know, I know, but it's my life. And ultimately the deep, delicious satisfaction that comes when that human has charted their own path is so enticing that I think the more we see other people doing that, the more we want it for ourselves. And that's definitely something this book tries to offer.

25:04Angela Santomero:And I think it's very useful reading it as a mom of kids who are probably a little younger. They're not quite ready for their turn yet. They're a little on the other side of that. I found it a very useful reminder for myself about it's difficult because not for nothing, moms kind of get a lot of grief for like, oh, you're so into how your kids turn out. Like it's a little bit of a circle where sometimes it's hard to find the winning spot. I think one takeaway for me as a mom from this book was that to keep that sort of open heartedness towards letting your kids take over their own life and not having as much control over that is very stressful.

25:41Angela Santomero:But it also helped me to think about it as being a little free. Exactly.

25:46Julie Lythcott-Haims:When we feel we are responsible for getting our kid to Harvard, when we feel the praise of it, when we feel the fear of it, none of that ultimately is rooted in a very healthy place within ourselves. We're talking about peer pressure. And it was peer pressure in middle school, and it was peer pressure in high school, and it was peer pressure in our early twenties and here we are. Thank you very much. I am still so worried about what my friend, my community, my whatever seems to think about my choices. Let me offer you this. If you need your kid to be X, Y, and Z, whether it's a major or a club they get into or a college or a particular school, you need that really badly because you're worried if they don't, then this would be a great conversation to take to a therapist.

26:39Julie Lythcott-Haims:I have profound respect for the profession and a therapist is the person to whom you can turn and say, you know what? I need these things for my kids. Let's unpack why. And working with a therapist, you will hopefully get to a place where you can say, you know what? It isn't about what my neighbors think. It isn't about what my in-laws think. It isn't about what anyone else is doing. I'm here to try to love this kid into being their best version of themselves. I'm here to teach them chores and character. They merge out of your home knowing how to roll up their sleeves, pitch in and do the dirty work of life.

27:12And with a solid sterling, solid gold character, which is how they treat others and

27:17Julie Lythcott-Haims:how they behave around others. That human is somebody everybody will admire. That human will be desired in the workplace. That human will make an amazing mate. And that human will ultimately make you proud, regardless of which college it was, or how big a salary they earn. You're trying to raise a good human. And the best way to raise a good human is to be a good human yourself who isn't freaked out and anxious about every little thing they do. But you're taking care of yourself and you're meeting your own needs. It really is a back to basics approach that I hope makes people feel they can relax a little.

27:54Julie Lythcott-Haims:And it's hard if you're in New York, and it's hard if you're in the Bay or LA or Dallas or Chicago or 89 other cities where everyone's stressed out of their mind about the academic performance and the perfection of their children. But you know, who's learned this lesson? Families that have had some kind of setback. Someone's had a diagnosis. All of a sudden you get real clear on what matters and what doesn't. It isn't about doing your kids homework to get them an A, you know, or kind of doing the super secret thing that nobody's aware you're doing to give them the advantage. You just let all that go.

28:24Julie Lythcott-Haims:And you're like, you know what, so-and-so's. Well, we keep saying, let the pandemic reset some of this for

28:29Angela Santomero:you. Absolutely. Exactly. Here we are, right? Let's talk a little bit more about that after the break. You know, every parent can relate to being out of some crucial item and facing the horrible prospect of getting all the kids into the car to the grocery store to pick up more. and it's like, how badly, Amy, do I actually really need or want that milk?

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31:06Heidi Raykeil:That's 50 % off your first year at monarch.com with the code FRESH. We're talking to Julie Lithcott. Hames, her new book is Your Turn, How to Be an Adult. Julie, you were talking before about becoming an adult means, you know, trying, failing, getting up again. And so as parents, when we're worried about our teenagers and young adults failing and trying and searching and fending, that is adulting. You're arguing in this book, that is the act of adulting, not the job and the promotion and the, you know, the pretty house on the corner, right? So we're actually getting in the way of what adulthood is, ideally, when we're trying to prevent them from searching.

31:44Julie Lythcott-Haims:Exactly. We're living their life for them. We're planning it out for them. And we're handling it when something goes awry. And we're sort of fixing and managing. And we do it from this loving place. But it ends up meaning we're sort of living their life for them. We're in the driver's seat always. And they are forever in the car seat, or in the passenger seat, even if they're 18, they're still strapped into a car seat and you've got the wheel. And we have to be tolerant of the fact that a human, not just tolerant, we have to recognize that life's lessons, the forgotten homework, the party they didn't get invited to.

32:20Julie Lythcott-Haims:These are opportunities for the kid to learn, oh, gee, I need a better plan in place to remember my homework or emotionally with the party they didn't get invited to. You know what? Sometimes I get excluded and that's not fair or that hurts and we're supposed to sit with them as they have their feelings and say, I love you and I'm sorry this happened and let them process the feeling and then redirect them towards something that they do have control over. You know, what are we going to make of today since you're not at that party?

32:47Angela Santomero:I find this even with little kids that sometimes I try to look for these opportunities. It's something I've gotten better at by thinking a lot about this, I think, that this teacher is not maybe a great fit, or we're having a lot of conflict in this year of whatever, second grade, third grade, that this is actually what life is like. This is a good opportunity to confront what your life will someday look like, which is not everybody was made in a lab to make your life go smoothly.

33:18Julie Lythcott-Haims:It's the accrued lessons learned that give your child strength, resilience, a sense of, you know, I've been through some stuff before, I'm going to be able to handle the next thing that comes. They develop the skill of how to handle the difficult situation. So that's exactly right. One of the phrases I like to use, it's not original to me, is we're not supposed to prepare the road for the child. We're supposed to prepare the child for the road. We're supposed to help them get stronger and stronger and stronger and more capable by letting them experience the various things that life will throw their way.

33:49Heidi Raykeil:Just recently, I was working on the research for this episode and it came in very handy because my senior in high school, he had to have a form filled out. so he can play his spring sport. So he emailed me, this form has to be filled out so we can play the spring sport. And I wrote back to him like, okay, you're going to college in five months. So I want you to fill out this form. And of course, then it was like, well, I don't know how to, I'm like, you let me know if you have questions, but you're gonna fill it out. I forget the password, you know, then there was all the secondary things of setting up a password and not keeping track of what it is.

34:16Heidi Raykeil:And now I've forgotten, now he has to reset. And it worked out. This was a very safe place to fail and have, you know, and it's a sport he wants to play. So he was gonna get this form done. But I'm wondering if you're a parent like me who maybe has smoothed the way to an excessive degree at times and you want to do a reset with the time you have left with this kid who has gotten very used to somebody folding his laundry for him. How do you do that reset? Because I tend to be like, look, you think I can do it? I tend to like come at it with anger and it's not their fault.

34:44Julie Lythcott-Haims:Right. As if it's his fault. And it's not. I love that you share that example, Amy. And I, as a college dean, I would say bravo. So there are too many parents waking their 18-year-old up for high school, and then they're going to be waking their 19-year-old up in college because they've never taught their kid that you're accountable for your own actions. And you feel like, well, it's college and it's so expensive, so I have to wake them up. Well, you were supposed to have taught them that in the fifth grade. So the reset is you say to your kid, hey, kid, I just listened to this lady on a podcast or I just read this book and I saw this TED Talk and it turns out, no, you say, hey, kid, I think we've been doing a little too much for you and lovingly intended, of course.

35:24Julie Lythcott-Haims:But if you're going to be ready to leave our home in five months or a year and a half or three years, whatever it may be, it's time for you to start to be responsible for more of your own things. So we're not going to go from zero to 100. We're not going to go from doing it all for you to just abandoning you. No, we're going to teach you how to do for yourself. And so let's pick three things that we can start to transfer to you. Let me pause here and say there's a four-step method. this is now not what you say to your kid, but this is for parents. There's a four-step method for teaching any kid any skill.

35:54Julie Lythcott-Haims:First, you do it for them. Then you do it with them. Then you watch them do it. And finally, they can do it independently. So if you've been doing step one, filling out all their forms, even though they're 18, and you're trying to move to step four, they fill out their forms, don't neglect steps two and three. Okay, step two is you do it with them. That's where you say, sit down with me, honey. You know, I've always made your plane reservations. I'm going to teach you how to navigate these travel websites. And you say, here's what we do. And you narrate out loud. You're doing the work, but they are there and you're narrating and you're kind of saying, see, any questions, right?

36:25Julie Lythcott-Haims:You're teaching. You do that enough times, you can move to step three. You're still there for the just in case. If it's making travel plans, you don't have to literally be there because it's a laptop and them, but you might be in the kitchen and say like, let me know if you have any trouble, I'm here. And they can still ask you questions. Step four is they can make their own arrangements. They can fill out their own forms. They can figure out how to restore the password without you having to be there. So steps two and three are critical in the driving metaphor sense. It's they're in the car seat.

36:53Julie Lythcott-Haims:Step one, step two, they're in the passenger seat and you're driving. Step three, they're driving. You're still in the passenger seat. Step four, you're not in the car. They're driving. Every single skill this applies to. Wow.

37:06Angela Santomero:That is such solid advice that don't say we never gave you anything. That is such solid advice right there. Like, it's just such a simple way to picture.

37:16Julie Lythcott-Haims:There's a cute little cartoon on my website. Yeah, let me tell you, the Atlantic magazine did a lovely little animated cartoon of these four steps with my voice as a voiceover. It's on my website. So let's put that in the show notes because it's adorable and the visual really helps.

37:32Angela Santomero:For sure. And let me tell you, this works with a three-year-old. This works with an eight-year-old at the snack bar in the pool. Try to think of this. Is this something they might be

37:42Julie Lythcott-Haims:able to do? Absolutely. Madeline Levine, who's an amazing psychologist and author here in the Bay Area, she says, don't do what your kid can already do for themselves, what they can almost do for themselves, or what is simply just your ego need to get done on their behalf. Okay? We're supposed to be looking for the opportunities constantly for them to learn, right? And let's not be in such a rush that we have to tie their shoes until they're eight because we were too busy to slow life down so the three-year-old could learn to tie their shoes let's not be so busy that we always carry them across the street even though they're 11 i mean you're not carrying your 11 year old but if you're looking both ways as they blindly follow you you haven't taught your kid to cross the street let's not be so obsessed with our own ability to do everything perfectly like stack the dishwasher.

38:31Julie Lythcott-Haims:Oh, I can do it better than they can. Well, of course you can. You're the grownup.

38:36Angela Santomero:That one hits a little close to home. Okay. That one hits a little close to home.

38:39Julie Lythcott-Haims:I'm telling you, I've done all these things. I was cutting my 10 year old son's meat. Yeah. That was my aha moment. I cut his meat. I'm telling parents at Stanford back off of your 18 year old. I come home and I cut the meat of my son. And that was when I was visited by Dickens's ghost of Christmas future who said, Julie, I want this boy to be independent. You have to stop cutting his meat. We've all been there. This is what we need to keep in mind. We're not supposed to foster a continual dependence on us. And if we need that psychologically, go get therapy, right? You've not succeeded if you've done everything for your kid.

39:13Julie Lythcott-Haims:You've succeeded if your kid emerges from your house and can do for themselves, barring a significant disability where a human might need to be caretaken for the rest of their life. Barring that, our offspring are supposed to be able to thrive without us because we will be impaired, dead and gone one day. And our job is to prepare them to be able to stand on their own two feet.

39:38Angela Santomero:Let's talk about parents, caretakers, people who are working with kids who maybe are outside of the mainstream. Sometimes I think that moms of special needs kids, they sometimes feel left out of these conversations. But I actually think there's a lot in this book that speaks to people who have kids across the spectrum?

39:56Julie Lythcott-Haims:100%. This new book, Your Turn for Young Adults Struggling, really centers the fact that one in two 18-year-olds has some kind of diagnosis for a learning difference or for a mental health challenge. So I am 100 % normalizing, quote unquote, all human conditions, okay? And folks who have various challenges will find, I hope, will feel seen in this book. But let me speak directly to parents of kids with special needs. I actually got to do an article for Parents Magazine some years ago about the lesson that parents raising kids with special needs learn sooner than parents raising typically developing kids, which is the respect and humility all parents should have around so much is out of our control.

40:42Julie Lythcott-Haims:How can I love the heck out of this kid and support them in being as capable as they are instead of let me micromanage this kid so that they're perfect in every single thing? Okay, the ADHD, the type one diabetes, these things teach us like, wow, okay, this kid's got some real stuff that they're going to contend with. How can I support this kid now and continue along the years to teach this kid to do more and more for themselves. So one day they can manage their own executive function issues. And one day they can monitor their own blood glucose. The type one diabetes community is, I think, a great example of what's changed.

41:20Julie Lythcott-Haims:And I'm not maligning or dissing anybody who's supporting a kid with type one diabetes. The point I'm making is 30 years ago, 20 years ago, we did not have a device in our hands that would allow us to monitor someone else's blood glucose from a distance. But now we can. And so we've decided I've got to make sure I'm always on top of my kid's situation instead of 20 and 30 and 40 years ago had to do, which was I got to teach my kid to be responsible for themselves. Not when they're three, not when they're seven. But you want to know when you launch your kid out into the college world, if they've got ADHD, if they've got type 1 diabetes, if they've got a situation, you hope to have raised a kid who's very aware of their situation.

42:05Julie Lythcott-Haims:They've been informed. They've had the chance to learn. They've had supports and resources. They feel empowered to access resources instead of ashamed, right? That's what you want. A kid who can self-advocate and kids who have a situation ought to emerge from our homes capable of advocating for themselves and maybe more capable than the kid who's never really had a situation to deal with, but still doesn't know how to do very much for themselves. In other words, the disability can be the reason they learn to take care of business a little bit sooner than the more micromanaged and overheld kid.

42:40Julie Lythcott-Haims:It could go either way.

42:41Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. Julie, you say, and I want to make sure to make this point clear, you say that no matter what our challenge is, that we as humans are hardwired to want to accomplish stuff. So that we want our kids to be adulting, not only because they should, and that's how the world works, but because we want to do these things. We feel better as people when we are accomplishing things. We're hardwired for that.

43:02Julie Lythcott-Haims:I mean, just picture the deep satisfaction you have felt when you have planted a garden and your knees are dirty and you're sweating and you're tired, but you're like, look what I just did. Or you have built a deck on the back of your house, or you have fixed that thing that was banging on the roof, or you have made a beautiful meal. You know, we feel satisfaction when we do things with our hands and our minds and our bodies, when we exert ourselves and complete a task, we feel good. We don't want to be micromanaged in life. Over-parenting is a simple term to describe the same thing as micromanagement in the workplace.

43:42Julie Lythcott-Haims:How terribly dissatisfying is it if your boss is like, well, let me just handle this piece for you. You're like, stop. Come on. It's my project. No, thank you. I appreciate the offer of help, but I've got this. Or the mind says, at least I want to try. The deep satisfaction comes from completion of the task ourselves, not, well, I kind of did two thirds of it, but then this other person helped me. I mean, if we need help, yes, we want to ask for it and we want to receive it, but to be overhandled, overmanaged, overhelped contributes to this psychological malaise. It contributes to anxiety in kids and to depression.

44:19Julie Lythcott-Haims:We are robbing them of that innate sense of I can, I can cope. You know, that's what happens when we overhelp. So whether we're eight or we're 18 or 28, 38, 48, we are yearning to make our way down this path that is ours to lay. We want to be loved and cared about along the way, but we do not want someone else to lead our life for us.

44:47Heidi Raykeil:Oh, I got goosebumps. That's so good. Julie, tell us where we can find your work and the internet and your new book. The internet is replete with places to find my work.

44:57Julie Lythcott-Haims:Thank you. My website is julielithcotthames.com. That's my long name without the hyphen,.com. All of my social handles, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook are jlithcotthames. I might even get on TikTok. Who knows? And my new book, Your Turn, this compassionate beckoning to anyone struggling with adulting is on sale everywhere books are sold in all formats. I'm here. I'm rooting for all of us to make it. And my books are all geared toward how can I participate in removing obstacles from people's paths? That's what I'm about. I believe in all of them.

45:33Angela Santomero:We loved talking to you. What a great conversation. So many good takeaways. This was so great. So helpful. Thank you, Margaret. Thank you, Amy. I appreciate you.

45:51Angela Santomero:This podcast is supported by Midi Health. Are you in midlife feeling dismissed, unheard, or just plain tired of the old healthcare system? You're not alone. In fact, even today, 75 % of women seeking care for menopause and perimenopause issues are left entirely untreated. But it's time for a change. It's time for Miti. Miti's not just a health care provider. It's a women's telehealth clinic founded and supported by world-class leaders in women's health. Their clinicians provide one-on-one, face-to-face consultations where they truly listen to your unique needs. They offer a full range of holistic, data-driven solutions that isn't one-size-fits-all care.

46:37Angela Santomero:This is care uniquely tailored for you. At Midi, you will find that their mission is clear, to help all women thrive in midlife, giving them access to the health care they deserve. Because they believe midlife isn't the middle at all. It is the beginning of your second act. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? Visit JoinMidi.com today to book your personalized, insurance-covered virtual visit. That's JoinMidi.com. Midi, the care women deserve.