DEEP DIVE: Liz Gumbinner on Ditching the Hustle

0:00And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the matchday spread. He's reaching for the Buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's going for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Matchdays deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And today I am talking to Liz Gumbiner, who is a writer, award-winning ad agency, creative director, and mom of teens.

0:46But online, she's best known as the publisher of CoolMomPix.com, the author of the OG mom blog, Mom 101, and the co-host of the podcast Spawned with Kristen and Liz. Her substack, I'm walking here, looks at media, politics and culture through a witty parenting lens. Welcome, Liz. Thank you, Margaret. I'm so glad to be doing this. You could tell by our tone of voice that we know each other in real life. We go way back and you truly are an OG. A lot of our listeners are youths and they are almost post the original blog era. but you and I were both blogging in the days. I mean, what are we talking about?

1:35Is that the like 2010s kind of? The mid-aughts? Yes. My oldest is now 17 and a half and I started when she was a half. So that would mean some of your listeners were in middle school, which makes me feel awesome. Yes. Yes. It's okay. Our listeners know that we're oldie locks and they're totally fine with that. And so today we're going to talk about ditching the hustle. And I think my first question about ditching the hustle, by ditching the hustle, we basically mean like getting out of the kind of like, oh, we've got to be doing more and go, go, go and move, move, move. Is the whole idea of hustle a new concept?

2:18I do think in like the many things that my mother worried about while raising her kids in the 70s. Rising and grinding was not on that list. No rising, no grinding. Well, here's the thing. I do think that mothers have always had this built in hustle imperative. We just called it other things, right? The juggle, multitasking, doing it all, quote unquote, right? Like I think there's since probably going back to, you know, the first wave feminists, we were kind of expected to do many things. And so generally, those many things included working, raising kids, and hopefully having a healthy relationship with your significant other, your friends, your family.

3:00But I feel like that's just changed in a way since social media in particular, where there's so many incredible opportunities for mom. I mean, I think that's one of the cool things about the original bloggers is we created an industry out of nothing. I mean, now it's become influencers and social media stars and TikTokers and all that. But really, it was an opportunity for moms to stay home, take care of their kids and find a way to make a living, which was wonderful. But I feel like now, social media isn't just connecting with friends and family, you're supposed to monetize it. And you should share your stuff all the time, because that could lead to a book dealer that could lead to a sponsorship, or that could maybe Swiffer will send you some free products, and you can write about that.

3:42And so suddenly, everything in our life seems like it's supposed to work towards some higher goal of monetizing, being famous, doing more, making more, having more. And I'm finding it exhausting. I think it's really interesting, because I've had this conversation with my mom, my aunts, people of, and I will say we have kind of long generations in my family. So I'm talking about people who were born in like the 1930s. And they're talking about the idea that in some ways, they had very limited choices, right? You could either you basically like went to college, maybe, or you married your high school boyfriend.

4:20And then you or if you didn't get married right out of high school or college, you worked as a teacher or a secretary or a cleaning person or a nurse or a nurse. Yeah. Until you met somebody and then that person started paying the bills and you stayed home and that there were tremendous limits to those choices. But I've also heard women of that generation express a little bit like, it seems exhausting what you all are up to that like, the fact that we have such a wide range of choices for what's available to us a wonderful but be kind of stressful because I think that's right. It adds on. I think that for my mom's generation, which is a generation probably before first wave feminism, the idea is like your job is to be home and raise these kids and have a dinner on the table and look nice and keep a nice home which is depressing because you're dying inside but there wasn't also on top of it the idea of like and by the way you should be also somehow running this company and making your mark on history and you know it's tough exactly well i think that's the one thing that hasn't changed, like the mental load, which Eve Rodsky talks about beautifully in her book, and so many people are writing about these days, has always fallen on moms.

5:42I think the difference, as you're saying, is we're working now. And then on top of it, we're supposed to have a hustle, a side project, a passion project that then becomes something bigger. And I think it's noble in a way. I think a lot of us don't want to completely lose ourselves, literally ourselves in motherhood to where what else is there were only defined by our parenting. On the other hand, I think the balance thing is still completely off. And there's just enormous societal pressure to do more, feel more out of each day, read hundreds of books, you know, like, have a great social life, find time to do everything for your kids.

6:19Like, there's just so much I think we're expected to do that I'm like, you know what, I'm not going to feel guilty anymore for binge watching an entire season of anything on Netflix in one weekend. Like if that's what I want to do, that's an accomplishment. That's maybe I didn't read 30 books this weekend. Maybe I watched all of the House of the Dragon toys. That's okay. I'm living with that. I'm owning it. And I'm feeling good about it. That's my 2023 resolution. I think and I like that. And I think it's right that finding joy within this picture of all those things we could be doing is very, very important.

6:57I also think, and we are at a similar phase of child rearing, I still have one 10-year-old, so I still have a little-ish kid in the game, but that for a lot of my peers at this phase where the kids are getting out of elementary school, basically, let's call it. And they're going to full day school and then often have activities after school that we're kind of at this doorway of what the heck is next. Now, I had started having kids in my late 30s. And so I'm very much midlife as I'm entering that phase. I'm high fiving you later in life moms, high risk OBs. Yes, later in life moms. But for I have sisters in law who started having kids in their very early 20s, and they're starting facing this in their early 30s.

7:47But whatever age you're doing it at, I think this idea of like, is this a second act now or a third act? Is this a new chapter that we're opening up and I'm going to find new opportunities or new hustles, as the case may be, or like, what's next? What's it all about? So I think in some ways, like, I like the idea of like, we'll just enjoy your time with your kids and relax and let go of all the hustle. But I also think there's a worry that you get to this point that we find ourselves at of like, but now the kids are kind of out. And now I'm going to probably live if my life expectancy holds up like either, you know, for some people 50 for some people, you know, 30 or 40 more years.

8:31What now if I haven't been in the hustle? Is that a problem? Well, I think what now is a great question to ask yourself. What's next is a wonderful question. And I don't think we should find the pressure in that. I think we should find the opportunity and the joy in that. And I do think, as you're saying, it comes up at certain times when your kids probably hit full time school at kindergarten. I see it again. I saw it when my kids went to middle school, where suddenly all these parents in New York City are like, oh, I don't even have to take them on the subway to go to school anymore. They can do it themselves.

9:03I have a whole day free. What do I do with that? So I think there are certain points in as a parent that you ask what's next? Or am I happy now? Is this sparking joy? Where do I go from here? I don't think that's a bad thing. I think about an old creative director boss I had years ago who said, you know, always think of your career in six month increments. If you're not happy in six months, do something else or move on or find a different job. And it takes the pressure off of thinking, what's my forever move? And so I like that. And I don't think that's just about jobs or working. I think it's also what do we do with our time?

9:38What do we do for fun? Where do we put our energy? Because it's limited, our time and energy are limited. And so I think for me, the challenge with the word hustle, what's your hustle? Is it indicates some sort of fast moving, you know, I think of like the disco dance, like you're always moving. And it doesn't have to be Back in my day. Aldi locks alert people. There used to be a dance called the hustle. Yes, yes. Look it up on the Google. You'll find funny gifts. And I think that it's kind of nice to think about what's next for me, but not in terms of a hustle or something I have to monetize or that every hobby has to be next level.

10:19Not everything in life is a competitive sport. And so I want to ask what's next without thinking about it in terms of either a job, a career, monetization, like what do I want to be doing with my time that makes me feel good, that makes me feel fulfilled? How do I give back? Do I want to do more with my community? Do I want to return more calls to friends? I think there's a wide way to answer what do I want to be doing with my time that isn't always about hustle culture. All right. I want to drill down on that point. We're talking to Liz Gubbner, and we will be right back. After an afternoon at the pool, my mom's skin needs a hydration reset.

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13:47Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college pc so i think that this idea of not everything has to be monetizable not everything has to be rewards based we just were talking to dr amber thornton on the podcast about this kind of elusive idea of balance and we were saying like what is the problem with this idea of balance and it's that it seems to involve a scale and constantly like moving stuff around and that it seems like a lot of work, another to do to find balance. And that her idea of balance is based very much in doing things for their own sake, basically.

14:31That finding time for yourself is not necessarily because then you will be happier. That there is a reward in finding time for yourself just to find time for yourself. It's not an if-then computer equation. Like you put something in and it spits out something else. And I think that the hustle mentality hurts us in this same way, which is if I'm good at making cupcakes, I could open a bake shop or an Etsy shop, or I could do something with cupcakes that is important versus I just am a person who likes to bake cupcakes. Exactly, exactly. You know, I think back a lot to Gretchen Ruben's first book, The Happiness Project.

15:20And there was something, there were a few things, but one thing really stuck with me. And I think about it all the time, where she said, I felt for so long that I was supposed to be reading certain kinds of books because I'm an adult and I should read nonfiction and biographies and historical fiction. And she realized what she really loved was YA. And she said, why can't I read YA? I love the Wizard of Oz books. And I thought, I always loved the Wizard of Oz books. And you know what? I went back and I read them and I enjoyed them. And that made me happy. And that was enough. Like, I didn't have to go on Instagram and talk about like, look what wonderful, incredible authors I'm reading and supporting.

15:56Like, it was okay that I just read something that made me happy. Well, we were talking about this when I was on your podcast, because I was saying that I had had a goal for a long time to read more. And I found it was on my, you know, New Year's resolution list every year, read more, read more. And I'm like, okay, something is wrong here because this is on my list every year and I'm never doing it. And we were talking when I was on your podcast that I finally realized that I used to love big, dark, tough novels like Jonathan Franzen is my idea of like a great book. Very big, very large book. When I had young kids and a lot of anxiety and a lot on my mind all the time, I found that I could no longer engage with that kind of fiction.

16:43Like, OK, I got enough problems of my own, Jonathan Franzen. I don't need to read 900 pages about this family and Iowa's problems. And that once I gave myself permission to stop only reading, quote unquote, good books and start reading like the lady on the train next door out the window where like the lady sees a murder and then she figures it out. Or, as our listeners know, I got really into the Elf Sex book series, The Court of Thorn and Roses. I mean, I'm not, I'm covering the title. Elf Sex is really an underrated genre. Let me tell you, it's like 3 ,000 pages of Elf Sex. These elves are living in this world and they're all in love.

17:26They're good books. They're incredible page turners. And it brought me back to reading. And what's interesting, we say all the time on the podcast, watch your story. My story was like reading is only reading Jonathan Franzen or like really hardcore biographies. There you go. So you had to reset what that meant. And it's interesting you brought that up as your resolution because I'm, well, I told you I'd started a new sub stack this year in part. And by the way, I'm not charging for it yet, in part because I didn't want it to be a hustle. I love writing. And I just said, I'm going to write for the sake of writing again, and not because I have to monetize it.

18:03I mean, you know, we should get paid for our work as writers. One of the pieces I wrote, it's a well, my first of all, my subject is called I'm walking here because the whole point is, you know, people tell you to pick a lane when you're a mom. And I'm like, I don't have to pick a lane. This is all my lane. If I'm walking here, it's my lane. So I wrote a post called 648 words about my one word resolution that really, I think, struck a nerve with a lot of people. And I just wrote about how we, for some reason in this culture, we expect that the calendar flips over and all of a sudden we're completely new people.

18:35We're going to read books. We're going to clean our kitchens. We're going to make healthy, nutritious meals. We're not going to order in sushi so much. We're going to do all these incredible things that we think we should be doing in the world. And it doesn't happen. And then we beat ourselves up and we think, oh, I can't keep a promise. You know, we spiral to varying degrees. And so my word of the year was acceptance, because I want to accept that I like reading YA, or I like watching Netflix for fun, or I want to write for fun. And maybe I don't have to check my, you know, how much money I make from it, if it's something I do on the side for fun.

19:10In fact, one thing I did this week, I turned off my like counts on Instagram, I decided I want to look at it, I don't care, it doesn't matter. The joy for me is the conversations and the community and liking other people's things because I like them, not because I'm in some group of 400 ,000 people that's supposed to like that thing. And so I decided that it's just going to be about acceptance and doing more things that give me joy and taking away the part that doesn't give me joy. And I think it's as we always say, ages and stages, like as an ages and stages conversation, I'm thinking back to being home with little kids.

19:48I had had a career as a writer in Hollywood and never super successful, but like I was doing it. I had an agent. I was getting jobs. And then I was home with kids. My agent dropped me. I mean, I was like went from being like a very minor player, like on the very slow lane of the freeway to like. 900 miles off the freeway with like, I couldn't even see the freeway with binoculars anymore. And I was thinking in terms of this conversation, is that time with young kids where you're really like, you're kind of just getting through the days. I'm imagining someone maybe who is either working outside the home at that time or staying at home with kids.

20:28Is it a respite time from the hustle? Like, I definitely kind of felt a little bit like, okay, I'm nowhere near the highway. So I'm going to kind of sometimes try to see the highway in the distance and slightly envy those people, but also feel kind of good that I'm not having to think about it. And then does that door reopen at our phase where it's like, oh, the kids are out now, I got to try to find the highway again. But don't you think to some degree that the parenting itself is presented as a hustle? Like how many craft projects are you doing with your kids? Did you do the most special Valentine's cards for the classroom?

21:01What kind of cupcakes did you bring in for your kids' birthday. I feel like there's a hustle to parenting that's also kind of expected these days. And I would like us to remove some of that. No kid has ever grown up and gotten into therapy because you didn't do the homemade cupcakes in kindergarten. That's never happened. Is it social media? I guess it's not really social media because even back in the day, you were keeping up with the Joneses. The other kids down the street were dressed better and they had matching bows in their hair. Like, I guess there is something just very inherent in us as social creatures that says someone is doing this better than us.

21:41And there's some way to figure that out. Yeah. And it's your kids. I mean, who doesn't want to be the best parent they can be? We all want that. And I think sometimes that intention is good, but misplaced. And maybe we put it in the wrong places, or we, you know, kind of mistake the nice to do's for the must do's. And so I think, you know, that pressure has always been there, whether it's seeing what the other class parents are doing in the nursery school class, or, you know, I do think that social media brings a lot of false perfection and filtered life to light and it's in your feed, and you're seeing it all the time.

22:18And you have to be like pretty stone cold to scroll through the people who seem to have kids that always have like clean noses and their clothes match and they look terrific and their rooms are clean and not think, oh, maybe I should be doing more of that. Yeah, I guess that's it. That like, there's nothing really wrong with hustling for stuff that you want. Like you have to, it's great to have ambition. It's great to have goals. It's great to have somewhere that you're going. But I guess the problem that we're identifying with, you know, hustle culture and why to ditch it is that it can feel whether it's like travel soccer or, oh, my God, my kid needs to get into this specific kind of school or, oh, my God, my kid needs to look this very specific way that other people's kids seem to look and act that you end up on kind of a race to nowhere if that becomes your internal story.

23:13Yeah. I mean, I love that, especially because your listeners tend to have younger kids. I would love if as a culture of parents, we can nip this in the bud early. Because let me tell you, by eighth grade, ninth grade, suddenly parents are like, well, what are your kids doing for their internships? Well, mine is on the Ivy track. And what are they going to do with the summer? What do you mean you're letting your kid go to summer camp? You know, shouldn't they be volunteering and cancer research so that they'll have better extracurriculars? Like it heightens. And so I think you've kind of, you've got to tap into your inner type B mom in the right places at the right time so that you can figure out what's important, what's worth the hustle, and where to let go so that we can just have more happiness in our lives.

23:56And not everything has to be go, go, go, go, go, win, win, win, win, win. Like it's not no one wins at parenting. We just are all kind of doing the best we can. No one wins at parenting. So all right, we understand now why hustling is a problem. We're talking to Liz Gumbeder, and we're going to be right back. and we're going to talk about some solutions to this. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up. Spring's calling. Ross, work your magic.

24:35This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just$19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox 1, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. This reminds me, who is the person, maybe it's everybody, who talks about juggling like glass balls and rubber balls? Have you heard that metaphor?

25:40Yes. country, whatever it is. I don't even know what that would look like. I don't obviously don't use Instagram that much. I don't know. Or your cute dog. Like maybe he doesn't actually have to be a celebrity on Facebook. Like he could just be a cute dog. There you go. Is the key, I think probably the key to getting out of this mindset is to pause and actually kind of name your priorities, like figure out what's actually important to you. A hundred percent. Absolutely. And I always think of my own mom's advice, who she just turned 80. She's brilliant. She's said to me for years and years, and now she says it to my kids.

26:18When somebody's upset about something, she says, will this matter in five years? Will this matter in 10 years? And it's very basic. And it's something I wrote about this week on Sunstuck as well. But it's such helpful advice when we're panicking about, you know, our microphones are not working in time for the podcast or oh no, our kid dropped out of soccer because they really like ballet, but I would love them to do soccer because that's what their dad did or whatever. Will this matter in five years? And that for me always helps me keep it in perspective. Yeah, I think also, you know, I'm an anxious person or as many moms are.

26:53And I think that the churning of anxiety sometimes becomes this engine that is running you in a way that is very unhelpful. And I used to work back in the day, I used to, I bartended and waited tables a lot. And I used to work at a restaurant and there's an expediter, the guy who pulls the food out of the kitchen and hands it to the waiters. If you've never worked in a restaurant. You got to tip out your expediters. They're very important. Got to tip out the expediter. But I would go back and be like, table 10 cheeseburger is missing and everyone else has their food. And he would always say to me, his name was Joey.

27:29He would be like, listen, we don't have a heart in a box around here. Nobody's waiting for it. It's a cheeseburger. And like, I think of that all. I mean, Joey is like basically my muse for my whole life that sometimes I get myself right. Like, but this isn't right. And we're the problem. The kid doesn't have the shoes and it's this. And I just sometimes try to channel my inner Joey and be like, this is not a heart in the box situation. Like, this is not if the helicopter does land, the patient is going to coach. I love that. To go back to that point about, you know, will this matter in five years?