DEEP DIVE: Lynn Lyons and Robin Hutson of "Flusterclux"

0:00Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college pc. Hey, everybody, welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Amy. And today we are talking to the co-hosts of one of my favorite podcasts.

0:41It's called Fluster Clucks. Lynn Lyons and Robin Hudson are with us today. Anxiety expert Lynn Lyons has been a therapist for over 30 years. She's trained hundreds of teachers, school nurses, counselors, and parents about managing anxiety. At the beginning of the pandemic, when their parenting retreats went on hiatus, Lynn and And her sister-in-law, Robin Hudson, started the podcast Fluster Clucks to help families with anxiety. Two years later, they're still talking about anxiety and worry in kids and in parents and the crazy things the mental health field gets wrong about anxiety. Welcome, Lynn and Robin.

1:14Thank you. Hi, thanks for having us. Great to be here. I'm so excited to talk to you today. This is one of these great privileges of hosting this podcast is getting to sit down with true experts and being like, okay, so let me figure out this thing. These guys, they're going to solve all our problems today. Yeah. Let's start with this question. What does the mental health field get wrong about anxiety? Oh, geez. Well, a lot. But let me say this, like it's all with good intention. And the problem with anxiety is that the things that you do that feel right, like the things and the things that work in the moment are the things we get wrong.

1:47And so a lot of times the mental health field says, okay, so we need to help kids. That's what we want. We need to help parents. That's what we want. So let's just calm everybody down. So everybody needs to calm down. Everybody needs to relax. And then it goes in, okay, so how do we do that? Well, if we can just avoid this, if we can just make sure that we don't trigger our children, if we can just keep them safe, all of that language moves into the anxiety world and unfortunately gets in the way of what we really need to do, which is to teach kids how to manage their emotions, how to tolerate when something doesn't go their way, how to be okay with their big feelings.

2:27Not everybody, of course, but the mental health field and schools too. Oh gosh, schools really focus on accommodating and avoiding and calming down. And it just takes us in the wrong direction. That accommodation thing. As the moderator of our Facebook groups, I can tell you that we constantly get listeners join the groups and say, nothing's made sense until I found Lynn, read her book, because the therapist that they would see would only enable the anxiety and make it stronger. So, you know, Lynn's message, and she's not the only one with it, but the approach that Lynn has is always like, well, this is now finally working and making sense.

3:09And this accommodation for anxiety is something that parents, we can do it with in schools, the people in these anxious kids' lives with the absolute best of intentions. Of course. I saw it recently in my own life. A couple of weeks ago, I got COVID again and some errands and things still needed to happen in our lives. So I got in the car with my kid who has some anxiety and like, okay, I'm going to go to this place. You're going to go in the post office, the pharmacy, you're going to go in and you're going to ask for this and you're going to get it and you're going to bring it back out. Wanted to go somewhere for lunch.

3:39You go in an order, I'll wait in the car. This was so hard for this kid. This kid needed a lot of coaching on how to go into the restaurant and order, came back out, forgot something, had to go back in. Mom, I can't. Why are you coming back in? They're not going to think it. Yes, they are. They're going to think this. Anyway, this was all only suddenly presented to me because I absolutely 100 % couldn't go. I'm staying in the car. I have a mask on. So it had to be this way. And that's when I really saw how I, with the best of intentions had been over accommodating the social anxiety that this kid might have.

4:13Right. And even in the moment when you're trying to help, you're giving a lot of reassurance, right? So when you say coaching, it's really the goal of the anxiety disorder, remember, and even if it's not in the level of disorder, the goal is to create certainty and comfort. So your child is going into the post office and you're saying, okay, so here's how you're going to do it. Let me give you the instructions step by step, right? Because and the anxiety is hanging out there saying like, okay, I need a little more. Okay, wait a second. Somebody might think something. Somebody might think, okay, what are we going to do about that?

4:46And then you want to say like, nobody's going to be thinking anything. Yeah. Yeah, they are. Because people think and people judge, right? So the goal is not as parents, as adults, we want to step in and say like, you'll be fine. Here's more information. Let me go over this again. Let me reassure you that everything will go fine. And that's called doing the disorder. But of course, that's what everybody does. And remember the high school student client you had where you sent him into the bagel restaurant or the bagel cafe and order a pizza, right? Because he's like, I can't tolerate people judging me.

5:25So I'm like, all right, let's see how that goes. So we set up a little assignment for him to go into a restaurant, order something that they will not have. So then the person behind the counter says like, dude, this is a bagel place. We don't have pizza. And the goal is on purpose to step in with volition to step in so that you can get the experience of managing it. That is fascinating. Yeah. So with social anxiety, we want to say to kids, people don't judge. People aren't thinking things. Well, how do you know? And we judge all the time. You don't have control over people judging. So the goal is to tolerate the reality that people judge all the time.

6:09Not say people don't judge. Yeah. I see. Tolerate judgment. Tolerate judgment. Tolerate uncertainty. And isn't that almost impossible for tweens and teens to do? Because they are certain that everybody's looking at them, thinking about them all the time. So we're asking them to say like, well, maybe. Yeah, they're right. They're right. I mean, you know, like what we say, like when you go to school, nobody's judging you. Have you hung out with eighth graders? Right. So, right. I mean, they're judging all the time. And it's the same with adults. Right. I had an adult client who wouldn't go into the gym unless she was with a friend because people might think something about her.

6:46And I go, well, yeah, they're going to think something. You have beautiful hair. Why did she wear those shoes? Who knows what they're going to think? But it's all about allowing for the stuff to come in rather than preventing the stuff from coming in. And that's where we get it wrong. That's where we get it wrong. I see. All the time. Right. Because in this moment, I was giving myself a real like, I was getting this wrong, but now I'm getting it right. But I was still saying like, but here's step by step instructions. So you can't screw it up and experience a moment of discomfort, I promise. And that's not the goal.

7:18Where you were getting it right was that you were saying you got to go in. Right. That's where you were getting it right. Right. And then you wanted to make sure that when he was stepping into this situation that felt uncertain, it's not like we give kids no information. If your kid had never gone into a restaurant before, you wouldn't say like, well, see what happens. But with anxious kids, it's just we want to give more and more and more and more. I wanted to ask both of you about the studies that have come out recently about the pandemic and what is being presented as a absolute like hockey stick increase in anxiety and depression in teens and tweens.

7:56And that this is something we need to super freak out about as parents. What do you think is happening? Is it as dire as it seems? What are your thoughts on that? It's dire for sure. Here's what people miss. It was dire before the pandemic. And so we had a real problem providing services to kids before the pandemic. And then the pandemic happened. And so we had this uptick for sure in kids needing things. And then it became really, really apparent that we didn't have the services to provide. So it was this combination of an uptick in kids' anxiety and depression, and then a real revelation that we are not capable of providing what kids need and what parents need.

8:49And so that has really snowballed, unfortunately. Yeah. But are the numbers of anxiety and depression up? For sure. Do I tend to be more optimistic about what kids are capable of? Absolutely. I always say, like, who wants a pessimistic therapist, right? If somebody comes to see you, you'd be like, yeah, you're right, this is terrible. So I really believe in the resiliency of kids. I think the thing we really need to pay attention to is that the adult's language is the freaking out language. The adults are freaking out and the kids are absolutely absorbing all of the freak outness. and that's so hard because there's so much to freak out about right now in this life something just happened recently it wasn't even like larger world it was a personal situation involving one of my kids i had to really go to bat for one of my kids and i was so triggered i was so angry after spending a couple hours on hold with customer service that kind of thing that my kid wasn't going to get to do something that had been long planned and registered for and like through no fault of their own.

9:55No, it's not happening. And I knew I had to calm down for like two days before I even told the kid because I was going to present them with my own. I was not going to model perhaps the correct reaction. Good for you. That's it, right? Yeah. You're managing your emotional response. You're recognizing how you can protect your child from a really big emotional response. And you're waiting until you can communicate it. And then sometimes, of course, we talk about this all the time. Sometimes you are going to freak out in front of them. You have an opportunity then to talk to them about your freak out and how you're working on trying to manage your anger about specific things.

10:32Or, you know, I really got really frustrated and I went a little crazy and I'm sorry about that. I shouldn't really do that. You know, you just move on because we're going to do it. And those can be useful moments, I suppose, when you're sort of modeling. Yeah. Well, the research, there's a lot of research about what kids see and what they don't see in front of parents. And of course, we don't want kids to see rage and violence and a parent being totally out of control because that is scary and damaging. But what the research also shows is that if a child is able to observe a parent moving through something and not moving through it perfectly, even moving through it in a messy way, and the parent is able to talk about But this is one of the things that they say with parents having fights, with parents having arguments, you know, regular couples having arguments, is that kids do better when they see their parents resolving it, when they see their parents figuring it out.

11:31Because we're supposed to model for them the whole process. And if you have a child that says, I've never seen my parent angry, then I wonder, have you seen them sad? Have you seen them grieving? Have you seen them silly? Have you seen them nervous? Have you seen them disappointed? And again, not off the charts. We don't want kids to witness parents being out of control, but we want kids to be able to see how it's done because that's what they're learning from us. And that goes back to the story about your child and helping them understand how to tolerate judgment from others. there'll be a moment in your day where you'll say, I had to go and talk to somebody for work and discovered I had this massive piece of broccoli in my teeth afterwards.

12:22And oh, that was uncomfortable for a moment. But then I said, you know what, who cares? You're modeling the ability to tolerate judgment for them. And you're reinforcing that's how you do it in a healthy way. And you're admitting that it's something that you have to try to do. and you're telling them that you achieved it. Therefore, they can also handle learning that skill and accomplishing it too. I love that. I'm talking to Lynn Lyons and Robin Hudson, the co-hosts of the Fluster Clucks podcast, and we'll be right back. After an afternoon at the pool, my mom's skin needs a hydration reset. The perfect solution, Osea's Undaria Algae Body Oil.

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15:15And so can you. Visit Rula.com slash WFH to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash WFH. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. so lynn you've talked on your own podcast about how anxiety is generational and uh it's like a river running through us can you tell me more about that yeah the reason it's generational is because we're social beings so when i talk to parents about this i make a very clear distinction about blame and responsibility we're not saying oh if your child is anxious i'm blaming you but it really is helpful for parents to say, here are the patterns we know get passed down.

16:21And if somebody says to me, well, you know, I don't know why my child's anxious, or I don't know how this anxiety showed up. If I were to say, yeah, we don't know. We're just, gosh, it's such a mystery. I don't find that to be a very helpful response. But if I can say, let's look at what the risk factors are. Let's look at what patterns are passed down, probably from your parents, because when I'm sitting with a family because I work with families. If I say to a kid, who's the anxious parent? The kids do not say like, gosh, that is a really tough question. They don't say that. They're like, well, it's that one.

16:54I mean, they know. And then if I say, well, what about the grandparents? They know. And so, it really is just about recognizing the reality of our social connection, that that's where families, you know, your kid speaks your language because you speak the language. Your kid celebrates Christmas this way or celebrates Hanukkah this way because that's how your family does it. So it's really important to just normalize that parents have a role to play. And I really want to empower parents by saying, yeah, this thing is modeled. This thing is taught. This thing is unconsciously just given to families down the line.

17:33How do we interrupt it? And I don't want it to be about blame. It's not about blame, but it's really easy for these patterns to just get passed down. And there can be a resistance to acknowledging that the anxiety exists, right? Like speaking hypothetically, it would be like, no, I'm fine. Yes. Thinking just for example. Right. Like you just, if you weren't so annoying all the time, mom, I wouldn't blow up at you. Just don't do anything to annoy me and we'll be fine here. And when you're starting from that, not that irritability is the only manifestation of anxiety. It's not, but it can fool people.

18:09Like I used to think that I had an anxious kid who was also an irritable kid and it took a mental health professional to explain to me, same, same thing. It's just the manifestation. But what journey do you go on with? I think every family has anxiety within to some extent, but some it's really affecting their functioning, right? And I think often the anxious person is like, don't call me anxious, I'll blow up. How do you move somebody towards acceptance, especially a kid? Yeah. So the first thing is normalizing it. And so a lot of people have a conception, a preconception about anxiety. A lot of them have a preconception about therapy.

18:48A lot of them think that anxiety means I can't do anything or anxiety means I'm a little nervous jervis, right? So you've got, sometimes you've got kids that are sort of see themselves as kind out in the world and they're strong and they're performing and they're getting all A's and they're captain of the debate team. And they say, well, I can't be anxious because look at how I'm functioning. And so, it's really important to recognize how anxiety shows up. And one of the ways that you see, and when kids really push back against it, a lot of it has to do with rigidity. A lot of it has to do with, I need to do things a certain way.

19:27And when you tell me I'm anxious, when you tell me I'm not doing it, for one, I take that as a criticism. I need to be perfect. I need to get this done. I'm going to handle it my own way. And so this, you're anxious becomes this threat to the very thing that they're trying to keep on track. So that's where you get a lot of pushback. It's basically just a lot of misunderstanding. It's the language. In the course of doing the podcast with Lynn, it's just a mom myself. people misunderstand what anxiety is. If they think it's really just related to worry, then all of the people who try and manage their discomfort with uncertainty by controlling outcomes don't understand that anxiety is them too.

20:13Like anxiety is a much bigger umbrella term. And when families are speaking about it accurately, like how are you managing your uncomfortable feelings? How are you managing uncertainty? Then you realize like, well, some people respond by that by wanting everything a certain way. And a highly functioning adult or teenager is maybe really good at controlling those outcomes. And they don't necessarily see it as anxiety because, but of course, that requires a ton of rigidity. So I think that it's really about a family understanding it and then talking about it more accurately for a teenager to start accepting the different labels or things to work on.

20:59You're so right. I mean, the stereotype of anxiety is somebody who's not functioning, right? Like somebody who's so worried about social interaction that they're agoraphobic or they're so, right, their school refusal. And I don't mean to belittle those things because those are real, that a super high functioning, I like certainty around a lot of things is actually anxiety. Yeah, because perfectionism is so applauded in our culture, right? And so if you've got somebody who's super high functioning, and you say, oh, you're anxious, they're like, how could I be anxious when I'm at the top of my class?

21:34Or how can I be anxious when I'm in this profession, that's a very stressful profession? I remember I said to this one little kid, he was probably about seven. I said, do you think you're a perfectionist? And he goes, not yet.

21:49Poor little muffin. I was like, oh, dude. Yeah. So, it's interesting because when I'm talking to families, oftentimes what a very interesting dynamic is, is that one parent will come in and say, my kid is really anxious. And then the other parent will come in and be like, no, he's not. And then I'll say, well, which one of you is anxious? And that parent who says, no, he's not, is the one that says, well, I'm not anxious. And then the whole family is like, oh, please. Right? So, they don't recognize the rigidity. They don't recognize the perfectionism. They don't recognize the control. Like Robin just said that phrase, controlling outcomes.

22:27because remember, anxiety wants certainty. And people will go to great lengths to get that. Sometimes they'll get it by being agoraphobic and hiding in their house and never talking to people. But if they're out in the world, they'll try and get that certainty by controlling outcomes. Think of a successful surgeon who must control every outcome and be very rigid in the way that they perform their job. And they are rewarded and acclaimed for being such in keeping people safe. When you have those skills and that muscle of controlling outcomes, how do you manage it at home? How do you know how to stop managing outcomes at home versus what you bring to the table?

23:12So the irony is anxiety can actually really reward adults in what they're doing. And we have to have an awareness about that so that we are not then trying to control the outcomes of our kids and stunting their ability to make mistakes and fail and learn from that, too. Well, which, by the way, they don't believe us anyway. Like when we try and say to kids, like, it's OK for you to fail. It's OK for you to make mistakes. They're like, no, it's not. And they're exactly right. Our whole system is set up to reward perfectionism. You know, when I go to the awards ceremony when my kids were in high school and there was an awards ceremony and at the end of the school year, like academics, and they would bring up the top 10 kids in the class and they'd all be standing on the stage.

23:58I'm like, oh, I know you. Oh, I know you. I mean, there are all these kids that I know that just were in agony trying to pull this off. But the culture that people would stand up, they give them a two minute standing ovation. and I'm watching and I know who they are and I know what they went through to get there and it wasn't healthy. So the tricky part is when we say to kids like, it's okay to fail. It's okay to make mistakes. They're like, oh no, it isn't. No, it's not because this is what we reward and this is what we don't reward. Yeah. They're big cultural messages to fight against as parents to give our kids that breathing room.

24:35We have to really be loud as loud as the messages they're getting from their schools and teachers and clubs and coaches, we have to give them that space. What do we offer for that kid to say like, okay, you're right. I'm anxious. I try to nail everything down. I need help with this. What are we offering them that's better than the National Honor Society and the accolades and getting to stand up on the stage? What are they getting in return for putting some of that aside? What they're getting in return is not all the things that are the result of this life, right? And all the things that we don't like to talk about, all the things that the physical symptoms, the immense price that people pay for anxiety and stress and perfectionism and doing everything at this high level.

25:19I mean, people will say to me all the time, why are our kids so anxious? Oh gosh, we've got to figure it out. I'm like, it's not that hard, people, to figure out because you can't have the pedal to the metal all the time. So the thing about kids when we're talking about perfectionism, the way you will lose them, They would have lost you, Amy. They would have lost me. They would have lost Robin. If they said, be average. Mediocre is fabulous. I was like, oh, no, no, I'm not doing that. What we have to teach these kids is how to differentiate between when it's okay to coast and when you have to put the pedal to the metal.

25:53because kids that are perfectionistic and the message that we're giving them is that you have to do everything well all the time. You make one screw up, you get one bad grade, you make one mistake and you're done, right? It's such an all or nothing thing. And I equate going to high school right now is like being on the balance beam in the Olympics, right? They make one bobble and everybody's like, oh, it's done, right? That's how it is. So we have to say to them, you have to figure out where you can coast. So, my son is in seventh grade at the time. He's 23 right now. So, he's in seventh grade.

26:31And I go to the gym in the morning or wherever I was going to do. And there's other moms there, right? Because you're out there hanging out with the moms. And the moms are like, it's a Saturday. And the mom's like, oh, God. All right. We'll see you later. I got to go do the castle thing. I'm like, oh, okay. We'll have fun with the castle thing. And so, then I go to the grocery store and I run into somebody else. And I'm like, oh, oh, how you doing? They're like, oh God, after this, I got to go to the craft store because of the castle project. I go, the castle project? I'm thinking, am I missing something?