DEEP DIVE: Peer Pressure

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17:34Amy Wilson:Okay, we're back. Amy, I do look at my kids and I wonder if our kids' generation has a wider definition of acceptability than our generation did and is therefore peer pressure less.

17:48Margaret Ables:I think so. I'm sure you've seen that viral video of a Florida high school having an anti-don't-say-gay rally after school. Have you seen this? The entire high school is outside saying, we say gay, we say gay, including the jocks that you're like, don't you push kids in lockers? Maybe they don't anymore. I saw that, and it gave me hope for the future. And I think that there probably is a wider range of acceptability, but there's still vaping and alcohol and stuff like that that kids do feel pressured to take part in.

18:16Amy Wilson:Yeah, I think maybe this might fall in the category of every generation thinks like, oh, this is really different now. And it can't be different. Like if the monkeys like the high status monkey best, this will ever be. And there's also an element of this that emerges really clearly. I see it with my kids, that they're starting as teenagers to start dealing with, we're not friends with him. Or there's like a game where the kids, they have screen names. And now they add a certain signifier to the screen names to indicate that they are part of this gaming group, right? Which seems kind of fun. Like it's like on Peloton or whatever.

18:58Amy Wilson:Oh, I'm part of the Rider Peeps or whatever group you're part of. It's a fun idea. But almost immediately it becomes you're not allowed to use that signifier. You're not really in our group. you're going to be stripped of your signifier because you're out or we're going to change the signifier without telling so-and-so because it really is a war about like who's controlling

19:21Margaret Ables:who's in and who's out. That's rough and I remember feeling pressure I mean like sort of bullying and exclusion is not the same as peer pressure but they are related because I remember being in eighth grade and feeling the pressure to like we gotta lose this kid like gotta lose the dead weight. Throw her overboard. Then we'll be cool. And I was like, hmm, it's not very nice, but I do need to get ahead.

19:43Amy Wilson:But I'm sorry. I got to leave you behind on the road because my only chance of survival. Right. The cool monkey says I have to. It's the old joke where the guy puts on tennis shoes when they see a bear and he's like, you can't outrun a bear. And the guy turns to him and says, I only have to outrun you. And it's like, that's it. Like, that's the social hierarchy. I got to leave you behind, Florence. I'm sorry. But like, this is my one shot at the big time. Like I get that we've been friends since preschool, but you got a weird haircut and now I've got to cut you loose because I'm clinging to the lifeboat of popularity with all I have.

20:15Margaret Ables:Going back to what you said about, is it different now than it used to be? I thought this was pretty interesting. The things that we think kids feel pressured about, we might be getting a little bit wrong. Okay. So there was a study in 2019 Pew Research Center. So 2019 pre-pandemic. So the pressures of the pandemic are not listed on here as the things that they feel pressured about. But the top peer pressure the kids said they felt was academics. The academic pressure, the pressure to get good grades and to do as well as your peers and get ahead was the number one thing that they reported feeling pressure about.

20:48Amy Wilson:That seems strange to me. It's also like, who are you studying? There's a lot of factors in that study.

20:54Margaret Ables:Well, it's an external force of influence on your decisions that might have an effect on your physical or mental health.

20:59Amy Wilson:It is. But I think a lot of that pressure is societal, where you live, your parents. Like, I think there's a lot that goes into academic pressure.

21:08Margaret Ables:But this was a pretty wide ranging. You know, I knew that you were going to be like, I don't know about that. Gimlet, I, Margaret is going to be like, I don't know. But this one they did like they were very thorough. I'll put the link in the show notes to look at like different socioeconomic groups and different race and things. So they did look at that. Something that was interesting is that girls versus boys, that girls are more likely to feel peer pressure. That a third of girls said they faced a lot of pressure to look good, and only 23 % of boys said they did.

21:36Amy Wilson:Yeah. That's not surprising. I definitely, that tracks for me. Yeah.

21:41Margaret Ables:My son at an all-boys high school can pretty much just, there's no reason to run a comb through your hair. Just go. No.

21:47Amy Wilson:I have to pressure my teens on basic hygiene. Like, they're definitely not feeling the pressure to like do a full blow dry in the morning and put Flawless eyelashes on. I'm like, you actually smell repellent.

22:00Margaret Ables:Like, please do something about it. So girls care about that more than boys. Yeah. Fitting in socially is something they feel pressure about, which I think it's interesting because we're like, you do all these things to fit in socially. But right. Fitting in socially is what you feel the pressure about. It isn't like I feel pressured to smoke. It's like, no, I feel pressured to fit in. And so whatever your peer group is doing.

22:19Amy Wilson:To me, that as I remember my childhood, fitting in socially was like 98 % of the pressure I felt. Right. Looking good, I felt maybe was not in my wheelhouse, but I still felt pressure to do. Like, I didn't think it was achievable to look like the girls I went to high school with. Those and then academic pressure. I associate that with my family academic pressure. I don't associate my peers with putting academic pressure on me, but maybe I misremember it.

22:46Margaret Ables:Well, the college, you know, getting into college and getting into a good college and, you know, that rat race has gotten significantly upped. And then being good at sports. About 20 % said that they feel pressure to be good at sports. I felt pressured whenever sports were involved because I was terrible at them, but I didn't feel pressure to be good at sports.

23:06Amy Wilson:Fitting in. So it's a web, right? Like all of these things are part of a constellation of things that they're not really counting the word popular here. Because like sports in my kids school, in my school, in every school I've ever known, the sports see kids are the most popular, right? The best looking kids are the most popular, the kids who look the best. And then often the kids who are academically achieving. I think of a lot of peer pressure around status monkey stuff. Like, are you the high status monkey in your middle school? Yes. And I also think with boys, the differential between looking good is less than girls because girls appearance is so much more malleable.

23:51Amy Wilson:Right. Like, right. To look good as a girl, like you dye your hair, you wear makeup, you wear really fashionable clothes to look good as a boy. You have a handsome face or not, basically. And like you're in good shape or not. Right. You know, there's not as many variables in how you look good as a boy.

24:05Margaret Ables:Right. And I suppose that, you know, that's changing as kids play with gender and who's allowed to wear makeup or grow their hair out or whatever. But you're right. Boys, like I'm big or I'm not like I wish I was taller. Right. And a girl is like, yeah, she can always try one more hairstyle and attempt to be. I had a very lamentable hairstyle in junior year.

24:23Amy Wilson:Oh, you have to try to find that picture of you and put it up online. It's your prom picture, isn't it? I'm not sure there were too many. Well, my

24:29Margaret Ables:prom hair was terrible. I had, you know, like late 80s hair. So it was terrible. But I didn't know that it was terrible, except for this one style that even like when I had it, I think was pretty terrible.

24:40Amy Wilson:I famously did the brought a picture of a gorgeous model from a magazine with a really short curly hairdo. And I got a short hair perm and I look like Tina Fey in the throwbacks from 30 Rock. Like picture a short permed haircut on like a 14 year old girl. So many perms. I looked like I was a Saturn and I live sketch of an old lady. Like that's the hairdo that I had.

25:05Margaret Ables:So I have some good news though, underneath all of this, because we would assume going in, we have a lot of listeners with young kids that clearly the problem with peer pressure is drugs and alcohol, vaping and smoking. Like that's why it's a problem. Bad behavior. Sure. Yes. So in this study in 2019, half of teens said, yes, drug addiction and alcohol consumption is a problem for kids. And clearly it is a problem for a lot of kids, but only one in 10 said they felt peer pressure. 4 % said they felt pressure to use drugs. 6 % said they felt pressure to drink alcohol. These are way lower than what one might think.

25:42Margaret Ables:Our kids in high school aren't being offered joints all day, every day. And it's this like great difficulty of their lives. How do they fend off this peer pressure? They see it around them. They don't necessarily feel pressured to participate, according to this study.

25:55Amy Wilson:I don't know what to make of that, which is a good thing. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly, as I've mentioned, not a problem for me. I was talking to one of my kids yesterday about health class, and I was like, oh, are they talking about, you know, sex and puberty? And he's like, no, it's mostly making posters about different types of drugs and why you shouldn't do them. I was like, I'm not sure that's educationally sound. Like that, just cutting out pictures of meth and putting them on a poster board and writing

26:25Margaret Ables:like don't next to it. I'm not sure if that's the way to go. Jess Leahy wrote The Addiction Inoculation. She's a friend of ours. It's a great book if this is something that's interesting to you. And we have a fresh take with her that you can go back and listen to. Yeah, it's actually not on that book, but it's a great book. So I took a look at what Jess had to say about peer pressure and alcohol and drug use. studies show that the number one factor in a kid using drug and alcohol is having peers who do it like if your friends do it you're more likely to do it which is i guess different from the pressure thing if they're not feeling pressured maybe they're not feeling pressured you smoke because your friend smokes you drink beer because your friend drinks beer but jess you'll love this because she flips the study in its head she says yes it's true the kids are more likely to use substances if they hang around with other kids that use substances.

27:15Margaret Ables:But it's also possible that kids who are more likely to use substances find other kids who are like that in the first place.

27:23Amy Wilson:Yeah. Go Jess Leahy, because that's exactly what I was going to say. It's not necessarily cause. It's correlation.

27:30Margaret Ables:Right. And she talks in the book about how, you know, when your kids say you have a kid who is getting in trouble and you're dealing with it as you should as a parent, it's sort of comforting as a parent to be like, well, if only, if only you'd never met that kid Bryce, you know, like it's Bryce's fault that you did this, you know, got arrested, whatever it is. Poor Bryce. But your kid wanted to be friends with Bryce, right? Exactly. It isn't necessarily Bryce's fault, but it's a natural instinct for us to be like, our kids would have been fine if it wasn't from this insane amount of peer pressure that finally, you know, cracked them.

28:03Margaret Ables:Like Giles Corey in The Crucible when they keep putting weight on his, like, he won't confess to being a witch.

28:09Amy Wilson:That's a deep cut, Amy. Not everyone out there is like, oh yeah, Giles Corey from The Crucible.

28:14Margaret Ables:And they kept putting more weight on him because they wanted him to confess. And it was like, more weight. And they keep putting more stones on him until he is crushed to death. So Bryce is doing that to your kid.

28:24Amy Wilson:I mean, I think you need to update your references, Amy. I love you, but like, find a Marvel movie where something like this happens. Come on, The Crucible.

28:31Margaret Ables:Then and now, if we're talking about high school, who doesn't read The Crucible in high school. That's true. You're still reading The Crucible. Right? So anyway, I thought that was pretty interesting that it's possible for your kid to avoid this stuff, but the friends they are choosing, there might be some agency in that more than we think. I think we should move to some solutions in how we can help kids resist peer pressure. Amy, let's do that after the break.

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32:20Amy Wilson:I do think there's a bit of a dilemma for parents here in terms of like, I don't want you exposed to peer pressure. Therefore, I'm going to try to control who you're friends with, who I think is engaging in bad behavior. And I think that can be a really tough call in a million different ways. A, you're sometimes judging it wrong. You know, I felt sometimes, especially in high school, that the bad kids were like the misfit kids and that some of the really popular kids were actually up to a lot more shenanigans. Yes, the kind of peer pressure, drinking, smoking, drug use, your kids are more susceptible to if they're around kids engaging in that behavior.

33:04Amy Wilson:But A, it's hard to know who's doing that. And B, it's a little tricky to be like, I don't want you to be friends with those kids. they're bad.

33:13Margaret Ables:Jess Leahy says that what we need to do is to equip our kids with the skills they need to stay safe and healthy no matter who they hang out with. I like that. Yeah, because I mean, I'm thinking back, like, did I just get lucky? Did I just not have, you know, friends and neighbors who are taking part in risky behaviors? I mean, I think I was kind of a good girl and I would have sought out the other well-behaved, high-achieving students anyway, but I'm not sure. Karen Hasselman, and she's a school-based therapist. She says that peer pressure is just about boundaries, that it's just setting boundaries for kids, and that they find it even harder to set boundaries than we do as adults because they want people to like them, right?

33:55Margaret Ables:Like, I think that's what's different about adolescents and adults. Do you like me? Do you think I'm weird, like worried about what other people think? That's at its peak at this age.

34:02Amy Wilson:And I have said this before, and I will say it again, because it is the one thing that I really believe is true. Not the one thing. I can't get pizza from a Chinese restaurant. You'd be much happier if you knew how little other people thought of you. I got a million of them, guys. But this one is important. My parents did be the great gift in high school of setting really firm boundaries for my behavior. Because I've said before, the one time I went to a high school party, I ended up like illegally driving a bunch of lacrosse players around because they asked me to. I didn't have a license. Like it was so outside of my character.

34:35Amy Wilson:I didn't have a character. I was like a mush ball, goofy loser who the second a lacrosse boy asked me to do something, I was like, OK. I mean, I had no sense of self. I think in general, it is best to keep your kids close while they are young and set really firm boundaries. Yeah. I just think that unless your kid has a really strong character, being out in the woods with a bunch of drunken teenagers when they're 15 and 16 years old, I can't see the upside of it. not allowing your kids to be in high peer pressure situations when they're too young to have those boundaries for themselves. Listen, some people will argue, and I've heard this before, right?

35:17Amy Wilson:If you're like crazy, like your curfew is 9pm and you can never go anywhere, your kid's going to sneak out. You have to find a balance here. But I think it's really important to hold off. By the time I was in college, I was a lot more ready to be like, yeah, I don't do that actually, but thanks.

35:30Margaret Ables:Yeah. Well, 14 is different than 15. 15 is different from 18. You know, I have a 14, 17 and 19 year old right now. And a teenager isn't a teenager, right? I'm trying to say there's like six stages. And you can say, I have said to my 14 year old, like, you were too young for that. 14 year olds don't do that. 14 year olds aren't ready to do that. I've said that to more than one of my kids when they were 14. And that's just true. And then once they get older, Jess Leahy's book is actually full of, you know, she's talking about more like high school aged that sort of clamping down and like, you may not do this.

36:03Margaret Ables:You have to stay home all the time. It does get harder as they get older. But what's impossible to ask of them is that in these situations, they say, you know, I don't believe in that. I just say no to drugs and alcohol. Like to try to give them that is not going to work. They're not going to do that because what their peers think of them is more important than what their parents think of them. Their prefrontal cortex isn't formed yet. So if the lacrosse boy thinks you're cool, you've won the next 60 seconds. And that's all you're thinking about. That's all you care about. You're not thinking about what's going to happen when you crash your mom's car and you don't have a license.

36:33Amy Wilson:One thing that I do think helps with this, and this is unavoidable. Like my parents did a lot of right things and I was still driving the lacrosse boys around with no license on the one night I went out. I mean, it's hard. You're not going to get this 100 % right. It's a slippery slope. But I think it's also very important to put a very fine point on this. So in our town, we have a little walking town. so the kids can walk into town after school. And one thing I always say is you can walk into town with your friends. They start pretty young, like 10 years old. You know, I give them some money, but you better be following these six rules.

37:05Amy Wilson:You're not allowed to walk with your phone on. You're not allowed to be rude to anybody in town. If you go to the pizza place, you're not allowed to disturb other people's meals by being foolish. Sometimes I'm out and about, happenstance-ly, and sometimes I do a pop-in inspection and I pretend I was out and about. I saw one of my kids walking across the street, looking at their phone, pulled over, get in the car. We're going home. You're not allowed to do that. And you're not going into town for five weeks or whatever. I think you can really be clear about your expectations. You can go to this party, but I'm going to find out if there are parents there.

37:36Amy Wilson:And guess what? Your teen is going to scream and yell at you and act like you're the worst person alive. But bring it, kid. I'm going to find out if there's a parent there. I'm not sending you to a party where there's no parents around. I'm not doing it. So hate me if you want, I guess. But also, I mean, where I live, it's like, I got to drive you there. So it's up to me whether or not you're really going. But I think you can loosen those restrictions as they get older. My kids sometimes will say to me, there's a part of our house where there's a window that I can look into and see what's going on in the living room.

38:07Amy Wilson:And my kids have yet to figure this out. And they're like, you know, old now. But I will occasionally be like, I told you not to eat in the living room. And I'm in the kitchen. And they don't understand that I can see them through this weird little reflection. And they just think that I'm all powerful. And like, I'm keeping that going for as long as possible.

38:24Margaret Ables:Yeah. It's actually a good thing for kids. The stuff that Jess Leahy suggests that we arm our teenagers with is less, you can do it. You don't need them as friends. Like none of that is useful. But to say, you can say, throw me under the bus all you want. My mom is crazy. And she'll ground me for like a year if she knew I was doing that. So I can't. Or, you know, I'm allergic to alcohol. Like the things she suggests arming kids with are these sort of get out of jail free cards that are a lot of sort of blaming the parent. My mom won't let me or I actually have to be home in half an hour. And your kid needs to be able to get out of this situation without asking them to do something that is very, very hard for them to do in a time when seeking their peers approval.

39:06Amy Wilson:That is impossible. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you start that early. Like I know with my kids' phones, I always say to them, you better tell every, you know, creepy little friend of yours that I read all of your texts. And if I see something that comes in on text that I don't like, I will jump on that text thread. And I know some of their friends give them a hard time about it. Like, you're too old to have your mom checking your texts. I pay the bill. I'm checking the texts, you know? Yeah. No, they're not too old. Yeah. You don't have privacy on a phone that I pay for. I'm not trying to find out who you like, but if I see nonsense going on in the text thread and listen it changes the teenage boys they text a lot of like bodily function jokes and kind of sex adjacent stuff fine I'll roll my eyes and be like real mature goofballs but if it's beyond that the friends know and it's fine like I'm the bad guy y 'all can talk about how annoying I am but it does give my kid an out for not being able to deal or get out of a text, right?

40:07Amy Wilson:Because the other thing I tell my kids all the time is like, these things last. You don't wanna have texts on your phone that are inappropriate. You don't wanna have texts on your phone that are offensive or anything else because you don't know who's gonna see that. And then you're in that situation. You don't wanna be the kid in the woods where something bad happens. We just had an incident at a local school where it was clearly a giant group thing and it's incredibly ugly and stupid. And I bet a lot of those kids were pretty peripheral to it, but they didn't stop and say this can't happen.

40:39Margaret Ables:The other thing that I think is important to think about when you're sort of thinking like what works and how am I going to create a kid who has a little more Teflon about this stuff is to give them independence when you can. I'm not saying like, I will never read your texts, but letting them make their own decisions, letting them have independence, letting them express their individuality. Like we should lean into that stuff because that is actually going to give them greater, earlier resistance to peer pressure. I want to go back to this Lawrence Steinberg who studies peer pressure. He suggests that this is when it kind of ends, that he says the peer influence is a developmental phenomenon that's bounded by individuation from parents at its onset, right?

41:18Margaret Ables:So they're starting to worry about their peers more than us. That's when it starts. And when you've developed a sense of identity, that's when that over-reliance on what your peers think comes to an end. And you can't like rush it. Every 16-year-old is going to wonder what their peers are thinking. But you can create a kid that has their own head on their shoulders by rewarding opportunities for them to do so, by rewarding them when they do do so. And that makes sense to me. That's something that's positive besides, here's five things to say when somebody hands you a solo cup. You know, I think that's one approach, right?

41:46Margaret Ables:And the other approach is just to reward our kids for thinking for themselves. and taking steps towards individuality.

41:52Amy Wilson:That's right. And I do want to emphasize that because what I'm saying about boundaries, it doesn't mean you like lock them in their room until they're 18. You try to keep them out of situations that you know the water's too deep for them. They're really in over their heads, but you let them walk into town. One example I use all the time is at the town pool, I never discipline my kids. I let the other parents or the lifeguards discipline them. So if they're splashing and another mom's like, you guys cut it out, that's a learning. for them that doesn't come from me. And sometimes they'll come down and be like, another mom yelled at us because we were roughhousing around her baby.

42:24Amy Wilson:I'm like, good. That's what happens. Like, you can't act the fool at the playground. Natural consequences. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not about locking them away. It's about letting them in water that is safe for them, that is just deep enough for them, you know, and not throwing them in the super deep end of like they're in a bonfire in the woods with a bunch of other teenagers when they're too young for that. Well said. Well, I I think as usual, we've solved it. Solved it, guys. No more problems with peer pressure. Just cross it off your list. We're all set. This one really did it for you. Friends, we're going to peer pressure you now.

42:57Amy Wilson:Your What Fresh Hell podcast hosts want you to check out our podcast, Toddler Purgatory. Toddler Purgatory is all of the fun and laughs and fun of What Fresh Hell, but it's all for kids under six. Join hosts, Blair and Molly, as they explore all the topics.

43:14Margaret Ables:Not peer pressure because their kids are blissfully too young for peer pressure. Kind of, I hope. Yeah. Right? They've got other problems. Yeah, I think they are. Believe me, they've got a lot of other problems.

43:24Amy Wilson:Don't worry about that. It's all little kid problems over at Toddler Purgatory. Find Toddler Purgatory wherever you listen to podcasts or go to toddlerpurgatory.com to check out all of their episodes. Thanks, guys. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. Bye.