DEEP DIVE: Tips for Vacationing with Extended Family

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0:31your kids would be better behaved if they went to bed before midnight is not something you need to offer what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood or the grandchildren maybe get chicken nuggets at six and the adults eat at eight with margaret ables and amy wilson turkey lasagna is vegetarian a podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to whenever there's conflict go back to more planning

1:01Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. And this week, we're talking about vacationing with extended family. If you must. Right. We always used to say that at the end of... It was like, what's that Chinese fortune cookie thing? It's a little body, so I won't say this. Yes, in bed. Yeah, and you say it at the end of every fortune, and it turns into a different fortune. Right, so put if you must at the end of every one of our... Titles. Titles. Episode titles. Vacationing with extended family. if you must, but you and I each do it every year, at least once.

1:34At least once. I do it twice a year, at least. I probably do it four times a year. Yeah. Because our vacations tend to be going to visit extended family because we live away from family. So our school breaks, we tend to go see them. Yeah, we do this every summer with my extended family, which is a large extended family, as I've talked about on this show, like we're up to like north of 25 people, which involves like multiple homes and lots of planning. And I really do look forward to it. But I've learned a few things. And our listeners have a few ideas, too. So we're going to talk about those. I'm for it.

2:04I think that vacationing with extended family writ large is a great opportunity to like express your values to your kids, which is we love our families. And we express that by staying close to them. And we get along with people even when it's difficult. There's plenty chock full of good lessons there. Sure. And I think it's actually generally pretty fun. So I did a fresh take a couple weeks ago with Danielle Bayard Jackson, and there was a book called Fighting for Our Friendships. And as I was getting ready for this episode, I thought back on a conversation we had that basically having the slightly uncomfortable conversation in the short term is way better than rankling resentments in the long term.

2:48I mean, that's obvious when you think about it. But the example we talked about in this episode is I kept flaking on a friend when I had a kid with chronic illness who was at home all the time. And I had a friend who didn't have kids and we'd make plans and I'd cancel at the last second and I'd make plans and we'd cancel at the last second. And then we kind of grew apart for a couple of years. And now, you know, that phase of my life, that season is behind me and we're spending more time together. But it affected our friendship for a couple of years because I never took the bull by the horns and said, so look, I know I'm flaking on you.

3:19I know it must be frustrating. Here's what's going on. I mean, she knew, but she didn't really get it. Like, hold on. This isn't about you and me. I'm sorry. I'll be back. But this is a tough time right now. And not having that conversation affected our friendship for several years. And why didn't I just have that conversation? So I offer that as getting to this episode, like there are some, you know, bumps in the road that you can probably talk about ahead of time with your immediate family and with your extended family that make this better than just well, this will probably be terrible again and not saying anything about it.

3:52I think that's true. And I think the opposite is also true, which is there are a lot of things that are better left unsaid. I was just on a or if you try to say everything, it's going to go badly, I think is what I'm trying to say. And I was recently an extended family wedding. And we were having the kind of brunch afterwards. And someone said jokingly in reference to something that had happened at the wedding, a rule, which I had never heard from it before. I believe it's from the recovery community, and it's a three-part rule. Number one, does it need to be said? Number two, does it need to be said right now?

4:27And number three, does it need to be said by you? And I think when traveling with extended family, we don't always need to have the conversation of like, Amy, I need to talk to you about how insensitive you are about your behavior that is being seen on this vacation. And I think sometimes the frustration of extended family is that I say this with love, it's totally fine to talk behind my back. Like you don't have to bring to me every issue that is in the family. We don't have to work out all of our family issues to gather twice a year as a family. We don't have to hash it out. No. And you're right.

5:04Like this is not the time to try out that new boundary setting language you saw on Instagram last week, right? With your sister-in-law. It's not. But on the other hand, like if you know that your kids have a bedtime and your sister's kids don't, and you're in the same house, rather than everybody like crackling with why are they like this, it might be better to kind of talk about that ahead of time. Like, hey, so you know, our kids have different bedtimes. How do you think we should handle it? Have an open-ended conversation about it so that both things can be true. And like, hey, for us to have a good time, we need X, Y, and Z to happen.

5:38And so how does that work? But that does not extend to, Amy, I have noticed that your husband is terrible. Like that conversation does not need to be. By the way, I love Amy's husband, but I'm using this as an example. Like we need to have the right conversations that are helpful and not have the conversations that are, why don't you ever discipline your children? Like it's a little bit of a balance between what conversations we do and don't want to have. Well, I guess I would argue that having the right conversations ahead of time can in some cases make it unnecessary to have those unpleasant snippy conversations in the moment by clarifying ahead of time.

6:23Yes, I think that's probably true. And I think that in the long term, I have learned that your opinion about someone else's lifestyle, parenting or overall choices is fundamentally not welcome. Speak about your own needs. Don't ever speak about other people's choices. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like your kids would be better behaved if they went to bed before midnight is not something you need to offer. Right. But if they're keeping your kids up, it is your business. my children I need my kids to go to bed at 9 p.m. I think you got to keep it on your side of the fence but like oh god your children never seem to eat vegetables not welcome to keep it to yourself so the first person you probably need to talk about all of this ahead of time this is from Katie our listeners in our Facebook group had some excellent ideas around this so I'll link to the original post because it's great Katie said that the first person you have to sidebar with before you go is your parenting partner.

7:21If you have a parenting partner that you're entering into this with. Obvious, but yes, do it, do it. Sit down and talk about it. And I loved this advice. Katie said, have a conversation in advance about which relatives on the trip can supervise the kids that you're bringing on the trip and which relatives are entertainment, but are not supervision. Like if grandma is not really capable of watching the kids while you go out to dinner anymore, but she is capable of hanging out with your kids and coloring while you make dinner. That's a conversation you and your parenting partner need to be on the same page about before you ever get to the share house.

7:56Yes. And I have a tip about this. When my kids were little and not water safe, when we went to any water based or really any activity, even at a amusement park or something there, I got one of those plastic bracelets, rubber bracelets, you know, that for every cause. Yes. Yes. You've told us about this, right? And you wear the bracelet. If you are in charge of the child, you wear the bracelet and you might get one for each of your children. And because what I find happens often on the extended family vacation or there anytime there's 10 people in charge of the kids that if I have an 18 month old who's not water safe, that's a very different watching job than like, oh, you know, count the kids heads every 10 minutes in the pool or something like that.

8:42And there was no lifeguards at the pool we happen to be at. And so I was very strict about like, if you are wearing this bracelet, when I hand it to you, until I take it off of you, you are in charge of this water unsafe child. Because what I don't want is I yell over to the bar like, hey, someone watch the kid in the pool. It's not safe enough for me. Yeah, no, I've been in that situation with kids falling in the pool and kind of nobody's watching. But you can't show up with bracelets at the, you know, family events, start handing them out. But you can do this with your parenting partner ahead of time, or maybe even with your sister ahead of time, like, hey, would you like to do this thing with me?

9:18Right? Like, this is definitely an opt in, not in the moment thing. Or are you saying it is you show up? Yeah, for sure. And I have showed up and just said, here's how we're going to handle this. So like, if I give you this bracelet, it means you're in charge of the kids. And it also kind of, I mean, this wasn't really relevant in my situation. But like, it would also help with the thing of, I'm not going to hand it to like the guy who's had 10 margaritas already, you know, like I think it, it helps. Well, so there is one time I can remember we were on a family vacation, lots of little cousins around shared house, and it wasn't the pool, the pool, we had a gate around.

9:52But the one thing we didn't think of is like, they're all here, the kids are fine, kind of nobody needs to be watching them. A couple of kids ended up in the driveway, got in a car to play and then couldn't get out with the windows up on a sunny day. And they're in there for like 20-30 minutes panicking and trying to get out before they thought to start beeping the horn at which point you know somebody eventually it was okay it could have gone another way scary really scary yeah you do need to be intentional on these trips where there's like you know five kids under eight somebody needs to be on duty instead of kind of everybody's always doing it and that requires a system of some sort that and then the system needs to be in charge not you not like father the clock, it's Jason's turn to wear the bracelet.

10:35You know what I mean? But there's a system that you agree on, but it needs to be deliberate. It can't just be, it'll be fine. I think that's right. And I think that the other thing that will happen otherwise is that one can become the default by simply being like the person who's most worried and that ruins the vacation. Like the thing of, we've talked about this before, like, oh, why is Amy so uptight that she can't even relax at the party because everyone else is drunk and there's five kids under five. And, you know, I don't want to be at a party where my kid gets hurt and I don't want to be at a party where any kid gets hurt.

11:08So if we're all on a boat and like the kids don't have life vests on, I am going to ruin the party by being like, we're not going or this doesn't make sense to me. And I do think that before you go on the boat, some of this has to be done kind of on the fly because events come up. But I will say I'm not comfortable with any kid being on a boat without a life preserver on period end of story And i'm not going to be on a boat where there's kids without life preservers and my kids are not going on a boat Without life preservers on and I think sometimes you have to make kind of uncomfortable stands But I think when you come at it from the point of view of like this is my comfort level This is what I would like to see you can kind of start a conversation that's not an attack on somebody else.

11:57And the boundary is this is what feels right for us. So we can't go on that trip. My kids can't go unless there's life preservers. That's not saying nobody's kids can go, but you're setting something that works for your family. And hopefully you and your parenting partner ahead of time are like same team, same team. If you think it's probably fine that they go without a life preserver, we don't have that conversation in front of the kids or in front of our brothers-in-law. Yeah. Yeah, and I think it can be tricky if where it starts to get tricky is it's okay for your kids not to wear life preservers.

12:26It's not okay for mine. Why does he have to wear it becomes like the theme of the trip becomes a lot of talk about who is and isn't wearing life preservers. And so I don't know, it's tricky. You can't make overall statements. I try to work from like place of maximum generosity, like that safety first, but then I can think of an example where it's like, we actually do want to have some fun. Like it can be hard to balance everybody's needs and wants because there are people who are too protective and it's like, well, we actually do want to just like hike up the hill and we don't think it's dangerous.

13:04It's hard to make blanket statements about it, I guess. Caitlin says, this is kind of related, anticipate conflict between people on the trip who prefer a looser schedule and those who are on a nap schedule. Caitlin says, I was told to take a chill pill. And this is another version of what you're saying. Like, so the baby needs to be in her crib for a nap or we're all going to pay. And then you get to make, you know, to take a chill pill. It can be difficult to be the one who is doing the forethought in these situations and then being told to relax when you know if the baby does a nap in her crib, you can't enjoy dinner tonight because she's going to cry and you're gonna have to walk her outside till she falls asleep.

13:39Like, it's frustrating to be told that you're uptight for thinking ahead. But sometimes you've just got to talk about that ahead of time, I guess. And be like, this is what we're going to need. Sorry if it's inconvenient. And the reality is there are super competing interests, right? Because I've been the person with the baby and I've been the person with like the three kids who are eight, nine and 11 who on a rainy day are not going to be silent for two and a half hours during your baby's nap time. Like we have actually competing interests. and I think that you have to, I think I do have a take on it.

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17:11No appointment, no going to the store, no upsell at the counter. I also used Zenni's virtual try-on to see exactly how my new tortoiseshell square sunglasses would look on my face before I ordered them. Let me tell you, they looked super cute on the virtual try-on and super cute in person. And with frames at under$30, I got a second pair just because. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order. These styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's zenni.com slash podcast, promo code podcast15. I think part of the challenge is that you have to realize that things on vacation are really not going to operate the same way as things operate at home.

18:05You know, like the baby is not going to get a three-hour nap and the kids are going to eat probably later than you do at home. And the grown-ups aren't going to eat at eight, right? And the grown-ups who are like, but we always eat at eight. Like, well, not on this trip, you're not because the grandchildren are here. You know, that everybody's going to have to compromise, not just you. Right. Or the grandchildren maybe get chicken nuggets at six and the adults eat at eight. Like, and I think the biggest thing I would say about vacationing with extended family is hold things lightly in terms of like, something, things are gonna go wrong.

18:39It's part of like what you're modeling for your kids. It's like, we do things a little bit differently because of how much we value this time with extended family. And I think another big mistake that people make on family vacations is, it's all about spending every minute together. And like, that doesn't work. Like, okay, so if, would it be possible at nap time for the bigger kids, like that's a good time to take them to the pool if we want quiet for this hour. But if it's raining, that's going to mess up the baby's nap because the kids can't be silent while the baby naps if you have a silent household.

19:16Like, I think that things are going to get lost during the course of the vacation that are part of your normal daily routine. So the planning separate time was an entire category of advice that people gave for this. Emily said communicate expectations before the trip agree that it can still be a great group trip without everyone doing everything together all the time. Emily suggests maybe everybody comes together for one big meal a day. This is what we tend to do like dinner is going to be at six and this person's in charge tonight or this family's in charge tonight. Keep it looser about who's participating in what for the rest of the activities.

19:52Anna said you can plan something you want to do. You can put it out there like, hey, tomorrow Jimmy and I are going to get up and we're going to go on a hike probably about 830. We're going to leave before it gets too hot. If anybody wants to come, we'll be outside at 830 and we're going to go and then leave at 835, you know, and there's no expectation and you hold it lightly. And there's no forced march on a hike that with kids saying they're hot, we didn't want to come. They don't have to go. Right. And I think holding lightly also has to do with I'm fairly strict at home about my kids bedtimes and to some degree eating.

20:23And I just let go of those things on vacation. My kids often stay up until after midnight when they're with their cousins. and they love to hang out. And, you know, for them, I think it feels very crazy to be like up past midnight on the trampoline with my cousins. And are they more nightmarish and they get sick and stuff? They do. And that's just, I just build that into the formula or I just kind of accept it in advance. And yeah, but I'm here. I'm speaking for the 18 month old who's going to get up at 5.30 a.m. whether she goes to bed at 7 or goes to bed at 10.30 because it's fun and what do you mean and you know like that is because you're holding the bag that's what I'm here to hold the line for if you're the one who's gonna have to be up with the cranky kid or miss dinner because of the cranky kid yeah then you have a right to say this isn't how it's gonna be but what is the solution it's to take the baby you have to I think then plan to have a quiet space to take the baby It's planning.

21:22Ella says, give everyone a sense of your daily rhythm. Can you tell I've also been told to take a chill pill when I use routine or schedule? She said, tell them ahead of time so that the early risers aren't shocked or the night owls or the people who haven't parented lately. Like, this is how it goes. Or if we're serving dinner at 8, you guys can't come back from the bar at 9.15. The kids, dinner's gone. We served dinner and the kids ate it all. I'm really sorry. That there is a schedule for people who weren't used to being on a schedule. And it's not a schedule that everybody has to adhere to.

21:52but the couple with the baby has to adhere to it. I think that's reasonable. You can't just be like, eh, it'll be fine, because it won't be. What those people don't understand is that your kid's not going to sleep until 11 the next morning like theirs will. Right. I think it's thinking of like how the space is laid out. That's right. Making plans for it. Because I think that the conflict sometimes comes, and I've been on both sides of this, from the, I think, young babies who are on a sleep schedule, you have to make really good decisions about where. Yeah, where that baby is. That is, you know, because I do think that the like, everyone has to work around an 18 month old on vacation.

22:29I see why that's frustrating to people as well. And so I think it's like, you have to solve your own problems, I think, to some degree on this, like, okay, this bedroom that is near the playroom is not a good bedroom for us with the 18 month old. Like we need to, I think the conflict often comes with like, people feel like the person with the baby is like, this is the first baby that's ever been born. And like, we have to, now this is becomes a 20 person vacation dedicated to the care and service of an 18 month old, which I understand why is frustrating to the group. But at the same time, yeah, chill out your baby, you know, just go with the flow is not possible when you have an 18 month old.

23:12So I think you're right to say that like all those decisions happen before the fight ever happens, basically, in terms of like what gets the 18 month old the most sleep while letting people feel like they're on a vacation and can relax. Let's talk about divvying up responsibilities because most people seem to think that some sort of discussion of that ahead of time, some sort of Google Docs spreadsheet, handwritten thing is in order for planning meals for an extended group of people. Do you do this when you travel with your extended family? We do, but it's 25 people. Like at some point, it's like this isn't funny anymore.

23:49and one person can't, or even three people can't possibly do the cooking and cleaning and planning and shopping for 25 people every night, unless that's a paid staff that you're having as part of your vacation experience. We don't have a staff. We did do that once. We went, we, all of us went to a villa that had a cook who would cook for you and a staff. It was incredible. It was the best vacation ever. Just be like, oh, like lunch is ready. So I think what we're landing on is get a staff. But if that's not available to you, barring that a Google spreadsheet. So we do a Google spreadsheet. And you know, guess who starts the Google spreadsheet?

24:25Yes, it's me. I start the Google spreadsheet. But I just it's the same one as last year. I'm like, here, it's a version for 2024. And everybody during this like five or six days we spend together get a lunch and a dinner and they can pick when it is. And you can cater it from the pizza place if you want or the barbecue place or you can bring frozen lasagas. You can do whatever you want, but you sort of, you're in charge. You grab it. And what's good about grabbing it ahead of time is that you get, you call lasagna, you call pasta night, whatever. And now it's like, oh darn, they already picked a pasta night.

24:55So now I have to come up with like Mexican night or whatever. But there's a benefit to going in early and then you stay out of it, right? Then it's like, if anybody needs anything, you let me know if you're the one, if it's happening in your town, try to stay out of it as much as possible. I find like that's very useful. And again, like if you're the one with the vegetarian kid, if you're the kid who's gluten free, you kind of have to hope people think of it and make sure your kid has what they need. When your cousin thinks that turkey lasagna is vegetarian, you know, that stuff happens all the time.