In short
The parenting problem-solving bias toward adding solutions instead of subtracting them, framed as “What can we add? What can we take away?”
Guests
Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson (hosts of What Fresh Hell?; no other guests named in the episode). Margaret and Amy discuss prior guest Amanda Montel (book: The Age of Magical Overthinking) and psychologist Dr. Yael Schoenbrunn (book: Work, Parent, Thrive).
Key claims
Humans show “additive solution bias” (people prefer adding rather than removing). Harder/more stressful problems increase additive bias. Adding can worsen outcomes (Brace’s Paradox: adding roads can slow traffic). Parenting often becomes “decorative basket bias” (buying organizers instead of reducing clutter). Sunk cost fallacy keeps people from discarding.
Notable examples
Training wheels vs balance bikes; moving toothbrushes downstairs to stop upstairs trips; turning down music/lights; closing streets at Times Square; removing pedals (balance bikes); “stop doing list” and “earlier bedtime” instead of more sleep products.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Additive vs. Subtractive Solutions
1:08 to 1:42
Discussion on the cognitive bias favoring adding over subtracting solutions in parenting.
“This is a topic that I kind of had on our list.”
Example: Learning to Ride a Bike
1:42 to 2:15
Using bike training wheels vs. balance bikes to illustrate the additive solution bias.
“So today we're talking about something that Amanda mentioned in the episode in her book, which is called The Age of Magical Overthinking.”
The Effectiveness of Balance Bikes
2:15 to 3:39
Discussing how balance bikes are a better method for teaching kids to ride bikes.
“Certainly when we were growing up, everybody learning to ride bikes, you learned how to ride a bike by adding training wheels to the bike.”
Yoga Insights on Balance
3:39 to 4:48
Relating yoga balance techniques to the concept of subtractive learning.
“and like your dad letting go and super hard.”
The Problem with Additive Solutions
4:48 to 5:40
Exploring the societal pressure to constantly add in parenting solutions.
“Like the way that your body naturally balances is probably the way that your foot wants you to place it.”
Study on Subtractive Thinking
5:40 to 7:48
Discussing a study on cognitive biases towards addition rather than subtraction.
“So there was a study that Amanda Montel mentioned in the interview, and I went and looked up the original study.”
Historical Context of Scarcity
7:48 to 9:40
Understanding how historical scarcity influences modern parenting solutions.
“This is going to be, I can tell already, very useful for parenting.”
Capitalism and Parenting Solutions
9:40 to 11:05
Examining how capitalism promotes additive solutions in parenting.
“I mean, if you watch a nature documentary, what's incredible is that like even a lioness who's like the hunter, right?”
Real Parenting Challenges
11:05 to 14:02
Discussing the complexity of real parenting problems that require thoughtful solutions.
“That if I can invent the thing that solves the problem, that's how I'm going to make money.”
Identifying Real Parenting Problems
14:02 to 15:55
Exploring the various real challenges parents face with their children.
“I would argue that unlike the slanket, which is solving a non existent problem, that parents have a host of hard to solve problems.”
Show all 20 chapters
Identifying Real Parenting Problems
16:15 to 18:50
Exploring the various real challenges parents face with their children.
“and it makes it really hard to teach kids to be smart about money.”
Identifying Real Parenting Problems
18:58 to 19:08
Exploring the various real challenges parents face with their children.
“That's Q-U-I-N-C-E, quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 day returns.”
The Additive Solution Bias
19:11 to 21:31
Discussing how parents often turn to adding solutions to complex problems.
“So parenting, we've all got, you know, our problems are dealing with with our kids and things we're trying to solve, as you were saying before.”
Brace's Paradox and Its Implications
21:31 to 22:53
Unpacking Brace's Paradox and how adding can sometimes complicate rather than solve issues.
“So the solution around this is to maybe be subtractive.”
The Decorative Basket Bias
22:53 to 24:56
Examining the tendency to accumulate organizational tools rather than simplifying.
“And that I think the home organization industry is big Big organizers is definitely fueling my need to constantly buy organizational systems, when in fact, I should probably be looking a lot at subtracting.”
Understanding Our Problem-Solving Patterns
24:56 to 28:01
Reflecting on personal tendencies in problem-solving and the potential for simplification.
“Well, well, let's talk about how we can understand this and start to shift our thinking, right?”
Considering Subtraction in Problem-Solving
28:01 to 31:30
Learn how subtracting tasks can sometimes be more effective than adding solutions.
“Or maybe doing less or taking something away for this problem I'm dealing with is the right answer.”
Practical Applications of Subtraction
32:50 to 38:38
Explore practical examples of adding and removing elements in daily routines.
“Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life.”
Sensory Overload and Family Dynamics
38:39 to 42:00
Understand how sensory inputs affect family interactions and the importance of subtraction.
“It's something that I am plagued by, which is I've already spent money on this.”
Exploring Subtraction in Parenting
42:00 to 45:43
The discussion focuses on the idea that sometimes doing less can lead to better outcomes in parenting and life.
“Their aesthetic was everything completely like catalog ready.”
Transcript
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0:31Amy Wilson:The Swedish are so great that their bikes don't have wheels, people. What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. That doesn't mean they're going to magically stop fighting 30 seconds later. With Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson. We're not suggesting if you have too many children, give one of them away. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas. So you don't have to. How can I make this more fun for everybody?
1:00Amy Wilson:Hello, one and all, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. And this week we are talking about what in our parenting can we add and what can we take away? This is a topic that I kind of had on our list. I wanted to talk about it. And then last week's Fresh Take with Amanda Montel, we had one part of our conversation. I thought, oh, yeah, this is it. And this is a whole episode. And I cannot wait to talk about this. Yeah, this, I could see all of Amy's neurons light up when this came up, but it is super interesting and I also have a lot of thoughts on it.
1:40Amy Wilson:So away we go, Amy. Let's get right to the science. So today we're talking about something that Amanda mentioned in the episode in her book, which is called The Age of Magical Overthinking. There's a cognitive bias that all of us humans all have, which is something called the additive solution bias. And it is the tendency for all human beings when we are faced with the problem to favor adding things instead of taking things away as a means of solving the problem. So fascinating. Yes. Even when taking things away might be the better solution. And I have the perfect example, which is how kids learn to ride bikes.
2:19Certainly when we were growing up, everybody learning to ride bikes, you learned how to ride a bike by adding training wheels to the bike. You add the training wheels. The kid learns to ride the bike with the training wheels because they can't balance. And then at some point you have to take the training wheels back off. But the way you get a kid who can't ride a bike to ride a bike is to add training wheels to the bike. Then like the Danish baby solution, they get everything right over there. They were the first ones to figure out. They used to be called Leica bikes. Now they're just like balanced bikes.
2:44And I mean, 20 years ago, they were very rare in the United States. And now you see them everywhere, which is just those like, you know, those wooden bikes that little kids use that don't have wheels at all. You see kids at the park riding them.
2:53Amy Wilson:No, they don't have training wheels. I'm sorry. You're right. They don't have training wheels. They definitely have wheels, but you're right. They don't have training wheels. What if you just remove all the wheels? The Swedish are so great that their bikes don't have wheels. They just imagine themselves to a new place. It's huge. Yeah, they have the big wheels, but they don't have the wheels on the side. What they've taken away is the pedals. Turns out that those balance bikes are a far more effective way to teach a kid to ride a bike than the old bikes with the training wheels way. that by subtracting the pedals, the kids are focusing on the balance, which is the hard part of riding a bike.
3:29The hard part of riding a bike isn't pedaling, it's balancing. So they learn the balance. And they get that in like a couple of days. And then the pedals are like the last 5%. Meanwhile, do you remember how hard it was to learn to ride a bike with the training wheels and like your dad letting go and super hard.
3:45Amy Wilson:And I've been getting back into yoga recently. And my yoga teacher is constantly saying, because I did ballet as a kid. So my instinct is always to turn my feet out. And in yoga, your feet are supposed to basically face like front and back, right? Like, right. Like God made them. Yeah. Like under your hips. Yeah. Like they're supposed to, your toes are supposed to be forward. In ballet, you can picture like second position, your, your heels are together and your toes are pointing outwards away from each other. and so in every position I'm and I understand balance as like your foot at a 45 degree angle is where I find my balance right like if your feet are slightly outwards that helps you balance and she's always saying not just to me but to the whole class learn it the right way like just find your balance on your front you know toes out foot because otherwise you're going to learn it with your foot at a 45 degree angle, you're going to have to relearn the balance, which is the hard part.
4:45Amy Wilson:Like she's always talking about just this. And don't don't add to it, right? Like the way that your body naturally balances is probably the way that your foot wants you to place it. Yeah, I guess so. So anyway, so this is I mean, this is the perfect example. I bought this training wheels thing of like, right. And it took somebody finally figured out no, no, no, you remove the pedals, you take something away, you don't add something. And that's the elegant solution. But it's very hard for our brains to do that. So I wanted to talk about why that is why our brains are like that, why it's a problem that our brains are like that sometimes.
5:17Yeah. And then how we can maybe try some subtractive solutions in our parenting sometimes. I mean, I want to say upfront, like it isn't like taking something away is always better than adding something. That's not it, but it's that we tend to not even consider it.
5:35Amy Wilson:We're not suggesting if you have too many children, give one of them away. That's not going to work for you. I mean, not always. Not always. Not always. So there was a study that Amanda Montel mentioned in the interview, and I went and looked up the original study. It was at the University of Virginia. This engineer named Leidy Klotz, we'll hear more about Leidy Klotz later, but Leidy Klotz wanted to investigate whether people actually overlook subtraction when they're coming up with solutions. Lydie Klotz sort of observed this and thought, can I prove that this is a thing that people overlook subtraction?
6:06So they asked 91 participants. They had them look in a symmetrical pattern. I'm showing Margaret right now. You can see the patterns. I'll have to figure out a way to maybe put these in the show notes so people can see them because it's interesting. Because it's a grid paper with some squares in the grid colored in, and it's a little bit asymmetrical. You have to make this symmetrical. So if you look at the first one there, to make this thing symmetrical, there were probably 18 squares colored in. You have to remove three to make it totally symmetrical. But instead, people added nine more to make it symmetrical.
6:37Oh, okay. It's like they didn't understand that. They just didn't even consider it. They just added stuff. They weren't told they had to add stuff. They were told they had to change things to make it symmetrical, and everybody just added instead of subtracted. Right.
6:48Amy Wilson:So basically what you're looking at, because you all can't see these pictures, is pictures that are symmetrical. They line up. And you could see where it's like a star with like a little cube in the corner. You could add three more cubes to make it match, or you could just take the cube away and make it match. And I would definitely have failed this test. Yeah. And I would have added like 47. Better keep going. Better keep going. Yeah. And the other part of this study that was interesting is they instead of like working directly with people, they went to the university. The university had recently gotten a new president.
7:28And when I guess when a university gets a new president, everybody's showing up with the ideas, right? Like this is what I think we should do. Everybody sent in proposals. There were 650 proposals submitted, and only 11 % of them involved eliminating or removing something. The other 89 % were like, we have to add something to the university to make it better. So it seems we tend to do this.
7:49Amy Wilson:This is going to be, I can tell already, very useful for parenting. I mean, the idea that we have to constantly add to what we are doing, to how we are parenting, that we have to put out book traps for the kids to fall into, that we have to make sure that they learn their extra language, that we have to find the right tutor to help them thrive in this. Like this is so much of parenting. And the reason, they don't really know why this happens. They didn't even prove this study that this is like baked in a cake versus something that kids learn. They didn't do this with children to see if it was different.
8:30But people are thinking this is probably a sort of thing that we've had around. We had a psychologist named Dr. Yael Schoenbrunn on the show. Work, Parent, Thrive is the name of her book. She talked about this a little bit in our fresh take. So I'll put the link in the show notes. Her book is called Work, Parent, Thrive. And she talked about this adding things and subtracting things a little bit. But her point of view on this was that it is a biological imperative that for most of human history, we deal with scarcity. And if you're a parent, you're really dealing with scarcity, right? Do I have enough for these children, for my whole family?
9:06And the solutions to your problems are, by definition, additive, right? We need more. More food, more water, more safety, more shelter. Right. We have to get more of everything every single day. And so, you know, she argues where now, of course, our world has evolved. So most of us typically are having our basic needs very well met. Our kids already have 2000 toys. You know, there's food in the refrigerator. We're doing okay. And so this solution that our brain has come up with to always look for more as a way to solve a problem doesn't match. Our biology doesn't match our culture.
9:42Amy Wilson:That makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you watch a nature documentary, what's incredible is that like even a lioness who's like the hunter, right? And you just think that she's hungry all the time. And they say like, because you're kind of rooting for the buffalo or whatever poor thing is trying to get away from her. But they say like if she uses up the resources to hunt and she fails in the hunt, she's in more trouble every time. Like a lioness can starve because they're not hunting enough every single day. You know, I mean, I think that there is a I mean, I have no idea, but it makes sense to me that there is an inherent drive to gather and, you know, protect and do more.
10:29Amy Wilson:Right. To do maybe not to do more like the lioness is like, do get food for children. Well, and also, I think there is a secondary thing, too, which is that when you're doing more, when you're buying more, when you're acquiring more, it's showing effort, like your effort is visible. It seems like you're trying harder. And so you're, that's going to be rewarded implicitly by those around you, like you're going to get approval for how hard you're working to keep your kids happy on the airplane or whatever, right? There's like, doing more is there is a performative thing that we're going to get from the world around us like you're doing a good job when you're adding things when you're doing more in a way that you wouldn't get that same sort of approbation for doing less doing less so I think then that's more subtle but I think that's part of it and then there's like every single time you turn on the television open your phone look at the internet and an additive solution is being offered capitalism baby like someone is telling you right my dad was just saying I was down visiting my dad and he was saying about something like people are so clever, like someone's figured out everything like, oh, this thing burns you when you cook it, like, here's the lid piece that you can add to not get burned, like, and capitalism specifically as a system, I think, fuels this, right?
11:53Amy Wilson:That if I can invent the thing that solves the problem, that's how I'm going to make money. And so, So like, you won't believe me, late night TV, this doesn't exist for people anymore. But back in our day, right? Like, I was just thinking the as seen on TV stuff, right? As seen on TV at a certain time, or whatever. I mean, we saw all of them, there were infomercials. And it was it would introduce a problem. Like, let me give you the example, opening a can, right? Of the slanket, I was gonna say, it's like a guy on the couch, trying to change the channels with his remote, but like his blanket is practically leaping off of him and choking him as he tries to.
12:35Amy Wilson:So then he gets a blanket with arms, the slanket, and then he's just cozy while changing channels on the TV. That's an additive solution by us. Yeah, get a slanket. It's an additive solution. And it's extremely debatable whether or not part one was ever really a problem. Like, isn't a blanket pretty much okay? Do you really need a blanket with arms? Do you really need another one? I mean, I am guilty as charged. I love a pretty blanket. I love a throw and I am constantly chasing like the ideal one. I'm here to say that we own two slankets in my house. I've got no shame in my slanket game. My kids love a slanket.
13:10Amy Wilson:But it is like, right, every single thing starts with like, don't you hate it when and something's bubbling or spitting or not opening or and the person's always like doing this very exaggerated frustration face. But wait, there's a solution. Here it is. As seen on TV, someone has invented something to solve a problem you didn't even know was a problem. Right, right. But now you better have it. Right. And I think for parents, this has just turned up to 11. Like if you want, if you want what's best for your children, you better get this kind of peanut butter, you better, you know, get this kind of car, you better get them this kind of fruit juice or no fruit juice or whatever that that you have to, you have to do this thing to sort of prove that you're doing everything you can.
13:59And I just think for parents, it's a special thing. And it can become,
14:02Amy Wilson:I would argue that unlike the slanket, which is solving a non existent problem, that parents have a host of hard to solve problems. Oh, you're so right. Like, my kid comes home every day with a sandwich they didn't eat and some fruit they didn't touch. But I saw these people who make these like bento backs lunches where like everything has a smiley face on the sandwich. And maybe that's the solution to a kid who won't eat lunch. And maybe tutoring is a solution to a kid who's not reading in the second or third grade. And maybe this kind of camp is a solution to a kid who's disruptive at home. And like, it's much harder than this blanket problem because the problems are real.
14:44Let's take a break because when we come back, we're going to talk about why having problems like that makes you even more likely to use the additive solution bias.
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19:26The greater the challenge, the more likely you're going to be like, I have to fix this by adding something. Or the more stressed you are about the problem. I mean, it could be like a bear is chasing you, but it can also be like my second grader isn't reading at grade level. Is a bear chasing you? No. Does it maybe feel like it at 3 a.m. sometimes? For sure. And so the more important a problem seems to you, your cognitive burden is increased, your stress. That's when you're more likely to turn to like, I have to add something to fix this. And what parent isn't under an additional cognitive burden at all times, 24-7?
20:00This makes so much sense. So when you add things, you are, of course, by definition, making it more complex and not necessarily increasing efficiency like the tax code. Right. Like think of all the things that we try to fix by adding something. The Constitution. Like, oh, except for this. Oh, and one more thing. And it just gets more complex and maybe more complicated. And this is fascinating. There's something called Brace's Paradox. This is dorky, but I thought this was fascinating. Oh, please. We love a paradox, people. I mean, we all know the German mathematician Dietrich Brace, after whom this paradox is named.
20:40Huge fans.
20:41Amy Wilson:I subscribe to his newsletter. Although his sub stack is great, even though he passed 45 years ago. Turns out, according to Brace's Paradox, he studied and was able to show that adding one or more roads to a network of roads can slow traffic instead of increase traffic flow. This is also true having lived in Los Angeles of highway lanes, that people think you add a lane, it slows traffic down. This is a thing and he was able to show this and it's been proven since then, this applies to electrical power grids, it applies to biological systems, that this idea of adding something, creating more lanes for something to happen actually slows things down more.
21:30It doesn't increase that. So the solution around this is to maybe be subtractive. So in 2009, Times Square, everybody's been at Times Square at some point, right? Like it's choked with pedestrians. And until about 10 years ago, also choked with traffic, like going right down Broadway. So this is like 10 or 15 years ago, they experimented with improving the traffic around Times Square by closing off some streets by making some streets just complete pedestrian plaza. So you can't drive on certain streets around Times Square anymore. And of course, that improved the experience for the pedestrians.
Read the full transcript
22:06But it also did improve the traffic in the surrounding area. There's less traffic when there's fewer roads for people to drive on in Times Square. Yeah, it's fascinating. So I forgot to tip my hat at the beginning of this to the decorative basket bias, because that's really what we should call this. That's our corollary to the additive solution.
22:24Amy Wilson:We talked about this with Amanda Montel. She had not heard of the decorative basket bias, but no, no, I believe it's named after you. Yeah, I believe I am the inventor. I am the Dietrich Brace of decorative baskets. Will you explain your paradox is it plays out? The decorative basket bias is that there somewhere exists, probably at the container store or some like-minded place, home goods, enough decorative baskets to solve the problem of your home organization. And that I think the home organization industry is big Big organizers is definitely fueling my need to constantly buy organizational systems, when in fact, I should probably be looking a lot at subtracting.
23:14Amy Wilson:I recently was helping clean out a house before I move. And it gave me that feeling of, oh, it's organized. Now, to be fair, it's a house that my house has five people living in it. So there's five bikes and five, you know, times 25 t shirts. I mean, there's too much stuff in my house, which is part of the problem. But it was so nice to be in a space where everything I was just in Amy's apartment who lives in New York City. And like you have this going on to like, there's just not a lot of stuff. Small bedrooms, there's nowhere to put stuff, right? You saw my son's room. And you're like, wow, this is a small room.
23:50Amy Wilson:Like, yeah, it is like, oh, wow, this room is quite small. And yet everything, but it's organized. It has to be. And he has like four sweatshirts because that's what there's room for. Yeah. And this stuff just expands to fill the space in such a way that then big decorative basket comes in and it's like, no, no, like here's an organizer that will keep your sheets organized. And I just did this where I bought, I went on Amazon and I found these sheet organizers because I can never have the right sheets for the bed. And I'm realizing after having just been cleaning out this other house, what I need is a sheet for every bed and then one spare and that's it.
24:33Amy Wilson:And everything else must go because what's happening is one of the sets doesn't have a pillowcase and then we're pulling it and then that one's dirty while you try to make the bed. And it's just the whole system falls apart. I'm really, really dealing this with socks right now. I just keep buying more socks thinking it's going to solve the problem. It just creates more mismatched socks. I need less socks. Yes, you do. Well, well, let's talk about how we can understand this and start to shift our thinking, right? Like we're on it. We've bought into this concept. We have too many baskets. I mean, I love a basket and sometimes baskets are great.
25:08They're not never great. But the point is, they're not always the answer. No.
25:12Amy Wilson:And I mean, I just did. I a couple of weeks ago organized my cords. You know, we had the basket of a million cords and headphones. And I did do a box, which each different kind of cord and they are in these little, you know, what's that word? Not vinyl. They're like white see-through, you know, plastic boxes. And I will say this morning, I had been, I was at Amy's yesterday recording, so I didn't have my setup. And I was like, oh, let me grab the headphone box. And there were a pair of headphones and I pulled them out and it was very, it was satisfying. I mean, yeah. So like, and I'm into that.
25:45Like I have like my vitamins and a thing, but sometimes the answer is less vitamins and throw out the broken headphones. Sometimes the answer is both maybe, right? And I think understanding this means that you can have to sort of notice like, is this always the answer? So I'm quoting productivity expert Anthony Sani here. He says, understanding our patterns for solving problems will help us notice when we're doing things a certain way that is maybe not the best way. And so he says that like adding things, I think it feels not just like the natural choice, but it also feels like the more virtuous choice, right?
26:17Like buying more decorative baskets is the more virtuous, active, look what I'm doing way to solve that you have too much stuff in your house. But it might be a shortcut.
26:28Amy Wilson:I think that's right. And I also think that I'm going to plug Amy's upcoming book here. Amy has a book coming out next year, which is phenomenal, but... Happy to help, it's called, yes. It's called Happy to Help, Confessions of a People Pleaser. And it has, I'm thinking of the essays from your book very much as we're talking about this too, that part of the problem, part of the pattern we might need to understand about ourselves is what is my role in this story? Because I think as moms and as like people who consider ourselves to be capable and stuff, I at some point was at one of my early jobs being like eager beaver, you know, college grad, like, let me show you what I can do getting my stupid stapling task or whatever they'd given me like done super efficiently and like handing it in and don't I get a gold star?
27:23Amy Wilson:Look at how great I did. And one of the kind of grizzled older it was a law firm paralegals put his hand on my shoulder and he said, listen, kid, the only reward for good work is more work. I just think part of it is checking ourselves to be like, am I captain save this situation? And is that a true role for me here? Because I think our brains tell us like, no one's coming to save us. It's me. Hi, I'm the solution. It's me. And that part of our job can sometimes be to say, you know what, it? Maybe it's not me. Right. Or maybe doing less or taking something away for this problem I'm dealing with is the right answer.
28:08Like sometimes it's not your problem and that is a possible solution. And sometimes it is your problem. Like, okay, your kid's not reading a grade level and what do you do? Right. Let's just take that example because we were talking about it. You can say like, eh, I'm not going to worry about it at all. You can say, eh, I'm going to, we'll check in six months. We'll worry about it then. Those are totally valid things to do, But let's say there's come a day where the teacher said to you, you need to be doing some enrichment outside the classroom. Let's say like it's been handed to you. This is the thing.
28:35You got to do it. You can, as you were saying, add tutoring, add a system. But this is the moment where you need to consider, I think, because the stress is building up. And like, I have to fix this and I have to fix this right now. And I have to show how hard I'm working to fix this. That the answer might be, for example, to do less. How could you do subtractive in this? You could have, you know, 9 to 10 p.m. becomes reading time before bed. that's a little late for a second grader so you might want to take my advice with it i was forgetting how old this kid was moving back a little bit people but yeah you might want to take away you know the switch after 7 30 or whatever that that has to be something you consider instead of like how can i find the best expert in the tri-state area to fix this problem right now
29:14Amy Wilson:right and this we're not making this prescriptive right like it's not like in every situation figure out what you can take away it's not always the right solution to every single problem but it is something to at least consider. I think for someone like me, and Amy, I think you're probably the same, we very rarely go to what can we take away. We just are wired, and I bet a lot of our listeners are wired to say, problem? How can I get involved? How can I solve it? And what am I going to bring to solve it? And I think it really is a question of perspective. And we've talked to so many people and about so many things on the podcast that I don't always have in every episode, like that moment of, oh, gasp.
30:03Amy Wilson:Like I've never thought of that before. Sometimes it's like a revisiting of ideas and I'm like, oh, right, that sounds familiar. But when we were talking to Amanda Montel and we'll link to that episode and go listen to it if you haven't heard it yet, this idea of that the majority of people look at a problem and think about what to add to it and that it goes against our fundamental instincts to look at a problem and think, what can we subtract to it? To me was one of those moments like, oh, wait a minute. It's not that I'm gonna look at every single thing and be like, I'm gonna take one thing off.
30:38Amy Wilson:I'm always gonna subtract. The Coco Chanel approach to life. Coco Chanel, right. That's the famous, like, look at your outfit and take one thing off. But I'm just adding this to your idea to your mind palace, like adding this as a potential solution, I think is so freeing. Right. I first heard this from Carolyn Dogley. She has a book called The Sensory Child Gets Organized that was very helpful to me when my kids were younger. And she first framed this, and what can you add? And what can you take away? And I think that is the point. You've definitely said it before. Yeah. And we'll have some examples.
31:16We're going to talk about some concrete ways you can start to think about this. But I think that's the point. You are asking both questions. Right? It's just you're considering that there's a default answer you've been defaulting to when really the opposite might be the thing to consider. All right, let's take a break. We'll talk about how to sort of put this into play. Solutions. After a long day in the summer sun, my skin needs a hydration reset. That's why I love Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum. It's super lightweight to put on, no waiting 10 minutes before you can even get dressed. And even though I'm just starting to use it, the hyaluronic acid is really helping my skin retain more moisture.
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33:24Amy Wilson:And now, things you will do this spring from the What Fresh L podcast. Find things you thought were lost forever as the snow finally melts. Panic about how late you are to sign up for spring sports before you start to panic about how late you are for summer camp signups. Realize it's probably too early to pull out the outdoor furniture. Put out the outdoor furniture anyway. Make your family eat outside even though it's 45 degrees out because you went to all the trouble of putting out the outdoor furniture. Your taxes. You did do your taxes, right? Okay, go and do your taxes. Get a little too excited at the farmer's market and buy$100 worth of vegetables.
34:06Amy Wilson:Curse it yourself a week later as you throw out$93 worth of vegetables. Get snowed on on the sidelines of a soccer game. Also, get a vicious sunburn on the sidelines of a soccer game. Make your entire family gather around a single crocus at the park while you shout, Winter is really going to end! And this has been Things You Will Do This Spring from the What Fresh Hell podcast.
34:37So my favorite example of this, what can you add? What can you take away that I got from Carolyn Dog Leash's book on sensory kids and getting organized was the downstairs toothbrush. I've talked about that before, but this was the like every morning at school, my kids would disappear upstairs to brush their teeth before they left for school. And then it would be like 14 minutes later. And I'd be like, what are you doing out there? We have to leave for school and then frantic, frantic, frantic. So what can you add? What can you take away? We have like a tiny like powder room downstairs, I put a set of toothbrushes in there.
35:11And they started brushing their teeth downstairs instead of going back upstairs. And it transformed our mornings. So like strictly speaking, that is adding something I added downstairs toothbrushes. but what I took away, the trip upstairs. No, you took away the trip upstairs. Right, like once they came downstairs dressed, they did not go back upstairs, and that's what solved our mornings. But it was thinking of that, always thinking of it through both of those things. And I continue to do that for my kids. Like, you know, even though my kids are grown, basically, when things are getting intense, when people are cranky, you know, when things seem hard, you have to consider, what can we maybe pull out of this situation, right?
35:46What obligation can we remove from our calendar right now instead of how can I make this more fun for everybody?
35:52Amy Wilson:Yeah, that's a good one. This one is staring right at me personally with an accusing finger. A disorganized person may need a desk with nothing on it, nothing on the wall above instead of a 32-piece organizing system. I mean, I wish I could pan out to my desk right now, which looks like something from hell. I mean, there is stuff everywhere, including like vitamins. here is Amy some nail polish I mean here is a speaker 40 ,000 pens there's you know it's just I'm like well I'll put it at my desk then I'll remember to have it and then I need an organizing here is a Taylor Swift Eras tour mug that I got at the movie do I use it I don't I thought maybe I would put pens in it I don't but how could I throw it away it's the Taylor Swift Eras cup that I got it the movie.
36:45You can't throw it away now. I mean, sunk cost fallacy. You have it now. You better keep it until you figure out an important thing used for it. Exactly.
36:52Amy Wilson:We have to do sunk cost fallacy because man, am I deep in it. And will I someday need a red pen that writes on a whiteboard, even though I don't currently have a whiteboard at my desk? I'm just showing all of these things to Amy. Like no whiteboard, but four whiteboard pens because someday I may get a white board again. I can see a few things you can take away. But can you add the answer is nothing. You can't add anything because you have it all. Nothing. No more adding. But it's true that my instinct is to look at this and say, okay, sometimes I do like to do my nails at my desk. So I have three nail polishes on my desk, even though right now I have my nails done.
37:30Amy Wilson:So I don't need them like, oh, well, I should get a little holder where they'll live on my desk. And that No, I should just take them off my desk. This makes me think a little bit of Casey Davis, who hosts Struggle Care, part of the Attalist Media Network. And she has this idea that's really helped me. That's like, I feel bad throwing things away sometimes. And always, yes, if you can reduce, reuse, recycle. Yes, yes, yes, I know. But like, I had like 14 mugs that didn't match in my house. But one was like from my kids course. And another one was from like somewhere we went on vacation once. and the one somebody gave me when we were in a play together.
38:08And I had all these mismatched mugs that were taking up all this place in my kitchen that I wasn't using. We were using the same two or three mugs every day. And I felt like I had to keep these and maybe find a better way to sort them and organize them. Or you just get rid of the mugs, right? I mean, it's just, but I was holding on to like, you can't just do that. You can't just get rid of things. But sometimes that is the better answer than organizing all the stuff you have more decoratively.
38:33Amy Wilson:Yes, let's touch on very briefly sunk cost fallacy, which Amanda Montel also talked about. It's something that I am plagued by, which is I've already spent money on this. And so therefore, I have to keep spending money on it until it's solved, because otherwise, I've wasted the money I've already spent on it. It is, I have had all these mugs for so many years, that now to get rid of them seems like such a shame because I kept them for so long. This is called the sunk cost fallacy. Why? Because it is not true. And that's right. Like, I might someday use this cord is not a good reason to have cords that attack you every time you open a certain drawer in your home.
39:20I'd like you to, I'm going to pull that as a clip from this episode. I'm going to like, send it to my husband to listen to because he is a big, but we might need this person. And you know, so am I sometimes too. But particularly with like speaker wire and stuff. Right. We might need it someday. We do live in a world where you can find that stuff. And again, I don't want to like create more garbage, but the garbage is in my house.
39:42Amy Wilson:This is the thing. Let me tell you when it becomes garbage, when it crosses your threshold, it becomes garbage. It doesn't make it not garbage that you keep it on your desk for five years. It doesn't make it magically not garbage. It's still garbage. Or it doesn't make you a better person that you kept the mug that somebody gave you that you didn't really want for five years. Doesn't make you a better person. Yeah, I needed to hear that. That's the part I needed to hear. Believe me, who am I talking to, Amy? Myself. But there's - I've just showed you all the things on my desk. But there's all sorts of overload.
40:16There's not just too much stuff on the desk, which I mean, I have too much stuff on my desk right now too. but I have ponytail holders and a sharpie and a plug that with nothing in it just a floating brick and two two water glasses but there's other kinds of overload so I wanted to tick through like there's all things like what can you take away and subtraction is like sensory inputs right is something that you can consider having less of I'm talking about times when it's like your kid is being difficult it's too much your house is stressful your house is chaotic you can't get out of the door to school in the morning, whatever the problem is.
40:50There's things you can take away that aren't just like, give me your phones because you're not ready for school yet, right? It can just be sensory inputs. It can be, is there music on? Is there not music on? Should there be music on? Should we dim the lights a little bit? The amount of stuff you have around, the commitments that you have as a family or that your kids have. Leidy Klotz, who is one of these researchers, came up with something called the stop doing list that he uses with this entire family. They put things on the stop doing list.
41:19Amy Wilson:Yeah. I mean, see also me turning down the music when I have to parallel park. Like it is sometimes that there is too much stuff going on at the same time. And people have very different set points on this too. I enjoy having loud music on when I'm cooking or cleaning. It makes me feel good. I have kids who are like, oh, can we turn that off? Like they're distracted by it to do their homework, whatever it is. People have different set points for how much stuff they can handle. I mean, I definitely, I had roommates for a while who, I mean, the house looked like a Williams-Sonoma catalog picture.
41:57Amy Wilson:And friends of mine would come over and say, where is the stuff? I'm like, I don't know. Their aesthetic was everything completely like catalog ready. It looked like a catalog. I can't live like that. I know that's beyond me. But for some people, that's their set point of happiness. Right. Let's make sure we land on that, you know, as we start to talk about like takeaways, because I think that's important. This isn't like minimalism is better, right? Your kid gets three toys, and that's it. And then you'll be a better person. And it's definitely not that subtraction is going to make everything easier immediately, because it won't.
42:35I mean, even if it's maybe the right answer in a situation, First of all, it's harder for you to come to it as a solution. Like your kids are fighting. You know, we have sibling rivalry. And you're always getting involved and like, why can't you do this? So maybe the solution is for you to do less, for you to step back, for you not to intervene. That doesn't mean they're going to magically stop fighting 30 seconds later, right? They'll probably fight more that afternoon and maybe the next day and maybe the next week. It's a long game sometimes. And so I don't want to be like, you're all a bad person if you have too many pens on your desk.
43:04That's not it at all.
43:05Amy Wilson:No, I think what it is, is it's a pause to say, could subtraction be the answer? And one of the examples we didn't talk about, but I think it's good to land on because it brings home, I think, what we're both trying to say is like baby sleep. It's a thing where like, there's a million products, right? This is the thing and it bounces and it cuddles. And this is the thing that da, da, da, da, da. Is the solution outside or is it here somewhere in like calmer lighting? earlier bedtime often is a solution for kids who aren't sleeping, which seems very counterintuitive, right? Calmer environment versus more things that beep and boop and promise to make the right noise that people, you know, that gets babies to sleep.
43:47Amy Wilson:And so I think what we're saying to myself is my instinct is definitely decorative basket, add more, add to the solution. What do you need? How can I help? How can I fix it? What can I buy to make this easier? And I've said recently on the podcast, my husband and I had a sit down at the new year, and we made a pact with each other, that we don't order anything from Amazon without verbalizing it to the other person. Because we both just have this habit of like, oh, I bought these cord ties. Here they are in a plastic holder right here on my desk, cord ties that are going to tie everything up and make it easier.
44:25Amy Wilson:They're not tying a cord, Amy. You can see they are still wrapped in plastic. Both of us have this instinct of like, the solution is out there. And I think for me, what I take away from this episode and need to take away is, what if the solution is do less instead of seek out more? Yes. And it's not always going to be the right answer, but take the pause and ask the question. And keep in mind that the more stressful or thorny the problem is you're trying to solve, the more likely it is that you may forget that this is an option. That's why I like baby sleep. Because the more desperate you are for an answer, the more you're like, I will buy the$8 ,000 swing that always makes baby sleep.
45:07Amy Wilson:Like, maybe not. Right. Maybe not. Your mileage may vary. Your mileage may vary, friends. One place your mileage won't vary is subscribing to WhatFreshHell Plus. I don't know, Amy, if that segue really worked, but I'm going to lean into it at this point. You know what WhatFreshHell Plus gives you? It subtracts the ads. less subtracts the ads it takes something away ads i mean our ads are great and we love our sponsors but if you're like a power listener and you want to listen to like hundreds and hundreds of our episodes all the time ad free and show a little extra love to what fresh hell that's what you'll get go to whatfreshhellpodcast.com you'll see a link to supporting cast and how you can you listen to it wherever it's one two taps i'll put a link in the show notes too you can listen right where you're already listening.
45:55It's$4.99 a month or$39.99 a year. And it's a way to support the show. Come find us, people.
46:02Amy Wilson:What Fresh Help Plus. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. So long.
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From the publisher
The human tendency to solve problems by adding something is called "additive solution bias." However, sometimes a problem is more quickly and effectively solved by taking something away.
In this episode we talk about how "additive solution bias" can play out in our parenting strategies, and how we can become more aware of the times when what we actually need to do is take something away.
Amy and Margaret discuss:
Why our brains are wired to solve problems by adding things
How additive solution bias increases along with the size of the problem we're attempting to solve
Why removing something, or doing less, isn't automatically easier
Sign up for What Fresh Hell Plus on Supporting Cast to get all episodes ad-free, plus monthly bonus episodes. Supporting Cast works right where you already listen! Go to whatfreshhell.supportingcast.fm to subscribe in two taps for just $4.99 a month, or $39.99 a year.
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Diana Kwon for Scientific American: "Our Brain Typically Overlooks This Brilliant Problem-Solving Strategy"
Gabrielle S. Adams, et. al for Nature: "People systematically overlook subtractive changes"
Less is more: Why our brains struggle to subtract
Anthony Sanni: Additive Bias—and how it could be affecting your productivity
Braess's paradox
Rachel Fairbank for Lifehacker: "Why You Should 'Subtract' From Your Parenting"
SUBTRACT by Leidy Klotz
Our Fresh Take with Amanda Montell
Our Fresh Take with Yael Schonbrun
THE SENSORY CHILD GETS ORGANIZED by Carolyn Dalgliesh
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
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