In short
The episode explains why a child (often around age four) can suddenly become intensely dysregulated—defiant, aggressive, boundary-testing—especially toward one parent, and what to do about it. Hosts discuss “limbic leap” brain changes (amygdala hypersensitivity) and argue these episodes can recur at other ages (tweens/teens), sometimes linked to ADHD/autism.
Key claims
dysregulation is stress behavior, not “misbehavior”; it can feel like it comes out of nowhere; parents shouldn’t blame themselves; and “drop the rope”/share caregiving can reduce power struggles.
Notable examples
Target tantrums over socks/napkins/shoes; regression (refusing skills they used to do); teens still switching between regulated and dysregulated modes; tweens becoming embarrassed by normal parent behavior (e.g., asking about their day).
Guests
No in-episode guests; hosts reference developmental specialist Alana Robinson and Yale Child Studies Center researcher Louise Bates Ames, plus Barnard’s Tova Klein (mentioned as a future guest).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExploring Child Behavior Changes
1:50 to 2:08
Discussion on the changes in children's behavior and emotional regulation.
“And she went to our Facebook group, facebook.com slash groups slash whatfreshhealthcast.”
Understanding Parent-Child Dynamics
2:08 to 5:27
Insights into how children behave differently at home versus outside and parental frustrations.
“Amy said, my four-year-old daughter has recently developed a special, defiant, boundary-testing, aggressive version of herself that she saves only from me.”
The Limbic Leap Explained
5:27 to 7:31
Introduction to the concept of the limbic leap and its impact on four-year-olds.
“And it happens, I think, way more than when they're four, unfortunately.”
Signs of Stress in Children
7:31 to 8:24
How children express emotions and stress during the limbic leap period.
“And so they just go ham over the stupidest thing.”
Managing Dysregulation in Public
8:24 to 14:57
Strategies for handling children's emotional outbursts, especially in public settings.
“They're not being bad if they're just like, and they can't tell you why they're upset.”
Managing Dysregulation in Public
16:09 to 17:16
Strategies for handling children's emotional outbursts, especially in public settings.
“Now available in Canada and the UK, too.”
Understanding Child Development Cycles
17:30 to 20:08
Gain insights into the cyclical nature of child behavior changes.
“So we've come from the future, as we like to say on this podcast.”
The Impact of Growth on Behavior
20:08 to 22:55
Learn how physical growth affects children's behavior and emotions.
“So Louise Bates Ames wrote this series of books in the 80s that were actually recommended to me, like in the 2000s.”
Navigating Behavioral Expectations
22:55 to 25:34
Discuss the balance between managing behavior and understanding emotional needs.
“But you do remember like, right, that shows going on 24 seven at their house.”
Balancing Child and Parent Needs
25:34 to 28:00
Explore the importance of attending to both child and parent emotional health.
“Like a kid who, quote, sits nicely is a regulated kid.”
Show all 17 chapters
Balancing Needs: Parent and Child
28:00 to 30:12
Learn the importance of balancing your needs with your child's needs for emotional health.
“beginning, I like to take a 50 50 approach.”
Balancing Needs: Parent and Child
30:21 to 31:22
Learn the importance of balancing your needs with your child's needs for emotional health.
“Fall is the perfect time for a back-to-one, new routines, and maybe a little more attention to the things you may have put off over the summer.”
Embarrassing Moments for Tweens
31:38 to 32:50
Discuss the humorous list of things that tweens find embarrassing about their parents.
“I don't like chocolate chip pancakes anymore.”
Navigating Parenting Challenges
32:50 to 36:30
Exploring the emotional pains of parenting as children grow and how to cope.
“Hey honey, that's as cool as Gryffindor.”
The Myth of the Changeling
36:30 to 42:00
A discussion on the mythical changeling and the experiences of children during tough phases.
“I was working as a paralegal temp, the law office temp, basically.”
The Myth of the Changelings
42:00 to 45:37
Explore the concept of changelings and the idea of kids alternating between being sweet and difficult.
“I feel like kids sense that it's like, it's your turn to be impossible.”
Embracing Change in Parenting
45:37 to 46:39
Discuss the ups and downs of parenting multiple children and the importance of adapting to changes.
“And I do like our solution overall, that is let it go a little bit more.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Heidi Raykeil:The Crispy Chicken Crunchwrap Slider is back at Taco Bell. The slider-sized crunchwrap with nuggets inside you loved the first time, now with a spicy kick you're gonna love this time. Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch. Or you could order some crispy all-white meat nuggets on their own. Pretty sure you love those anytime. Every time. Okay, all of the times. The Crispy Chicken Crunchwrap Slider. A brand new classic is back. Only at Taco Bell. I participate in U.S. talk about locations for limited time and while supplies last.
1:03Heidi Raykeil:hey everybody welcome to what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood this is amy and this is margaret and today we are discussing what happened to my sweet child sweet child of mine axel rose was not talking about a four-year-old apparently he was talking about maybe a two-year-old maybe a seven-year-old not a four-year-old whatever he was talking about that was before Before the change to darkness. It was before the change. This is an extremely universal experience that all of us have had. I'm going to argue multiple times with each of our children that something happens all of a sudden and they're very dysregulated.
1:37Heidi Raykeil:But this is a topic that came from Amy in our Facebook group. Different Amy. You're not seeding our Facebook group with questions. Any group of women of a certain age is going to be at least two Amys. This is other Amy for this purpose of this episode. And she went to our Facebook group, facebook.com slash groups slash whatfreshhealthcast. It's 7 ,000 parents talking about parenting, talking about what kind of socks they should buy, having fun, being nice. We love this group of parents. Amy went to the group. We're going to answer this question, too, because we want to. Amy said, my four-year-old daughter has recently developed a special, defiant, boundary-testing, aggressive version of herself that she saves only from me.
2:19Heidi Raykeil:I can't make sense of it at all. Amy says, I think her emotional cup is filled more often than not. And I think she has plenty of opportunities for sensory needs. Wet Fresh Hell, send help. I'm trying to think of our Wet Fresh Hell theme song. The Wet Fresh Hell beam has gone up into the sky and we have arrived to solve this problem. Yes. And as you said, first of all, something that happens at many different ages and even, spoiler earlier into the teen ages, this is still happening. And there's two parts of this problem. One that it is developed. And I like that she says that she saves only for me.
2:59And I was just talking to a non-parent about one of my kids. And they were saying, oh, they're this and they're that. And I said, yeah, I mean, they save a lot for me, I will say. Like, I mean, there are a lot of aspects of our children that we receive as their parent that maybe are not viewable to their teachers, their loved ones, other people in their lives. And so sometimes I do think the pain here is in, oh, she's so adorable and sweet. And you're like, yeah, I'm behind closed doors dealing with a maniac or a very difficult person or someone who I think sometimes it can feel that I'm getting like abuse from.
3:46Heidi Raykeil:I recently have had to spend a bunch of time away from my kids who are not four years old, not like the other Amy. My kids are big. And so my spouse has become the primary caregiver for the last couple of weeks. And again, big kids. But still, when I came back after about 10 days away, my spouse was like, Oh my God, like, we literally switched roles. You know what I mean? I was meeting him at the door. He was meeting me at the door with his sneakers on, like, get me out of here. And I just thought, oh, it was gratifying, you know, in some way. Like, right, right. Now you see that when you're the one who's around all the time, you're the one that gets all the stuff thrown your way, whoever the primary caregiver is, which in our case is usually me, but not right now.
4:29Sure, for sure. And I think sometimes underlining this piece of it has for the other parent. Also, when I had a four year olds, my spouse was working a lot out of the house. It was pre-COVID. We there was no work at home. He was out of the house 60 hours a week. And yes, I think often we had the conversation where, oh, she's so sweet. Oh, she's so funny. The way she says ambu blance instead of ambulance. And I'm like, she's a monster. You have to see. Like, you don't understand. I'm trapped at home
5:05Heidi Raykeil:all day with, you know, the beast that you don't see. So that's part of it. I don't want to talk about that because I have some research that backs up. Like, that is true. And what you can't take on is feeling bad about that. Like, well, I must be doing something wrong if they're nice for everybody else except me. That's not what's happening. And it is developmentally appropriate that this stuff is happening and how it feels like it comes out of nowhere. It can come out of nowhere. And it happens, I think, way more than when they're four, unfortunately. But I wanted to talk first about there might actually be something special that happens when they're four that I learned about for the first time researching this episode.
5:40Heidi Raykeil:So again, going back to our Facebook group, Sylvia in the comments was like, this is the limbic leap. You got to look at the limbic leap. That's what's happening here. I'm like, what? I've never heard of the limbic leap. Have you heard of it before? I do want to look at the limbic leap, Sylvia. And I will say in the comments to other people who weren't saying, look at the limbic leap or like, exactly. And again, for like your mileage may vary, we might be talking about a three and a half year old or an almost five year old, but people were falling over themselves to agree to hit the like button on this one.
6:07Heidi Raykeil:There was something about four. So anyway, I looked into the limbic leap. Do you want to hear about it? Of course I do. Amy, I woke up this morning thinking I hope Amy tells me about the limbic leap. Limbic leap is a term that I found was created by developmental specialist Alana Robinson. So I looked into this. She created this notion based on her research. So she defines it as a transitional period that kids go through around the age of four due to a development in the limbic system of the brain. We call it red brain. Some people call it lizard brain. Other neuroscientists say that's ridiculous and it's not that simplistic, but it's the part of your brain that deals with emotions, memory, safety.
6:46Heidi Raykeil:It's the fight flight part of your brain. She explains it The brain is an electrical system. And at around four years old, a huge jump of neurons and synapses start getting built. There's a big leap in that activity in the amygdala, which is in the limbic system. And so much is happening that the amygdala gets super sensitive, hypersensitive. And there's a lot of electrical signals firing and maybe misfiring and causing dysregulation. So as she puts it, your four-year-old's brain is triggering a fight or flight response for all sorts of things that are not actual threats. And it's because the system is activating, basically.
7:23It's like learning to walk. It's like learning to have an amygdala.
7:27Heidi Raykeil:Yes, that's her argument. The amygdala is like under construction when they're around four. A lot's happening up there. So it's hypersensitive. It's turned up for what? And so they just go ham over the stupidest thing. So this is how it can play out. She says you start to notice that your child is suddenly very emotional about everything, getting tearful and angry at the slightest change, like changes in plans, right? I don't like these socks. That's sort of, I don't want to sit at this. I like this napkin, whatever. They don't like it. And she argues that you might even see some regression, that your kid all of a sudden doesn't want to do things that they know how to do, that they've known how to do for a long time.
8:05Heidi Raykeil:They can't, they won't. They're easily frustrated with the shoes, whatever. And I thought this was interesting. She said, you'll probably find your child can't even tell you why they're upset. They're just upset. They're just melting down. And she says, I like this. I had never heard this explained this way before. That's a clear sign of stress behavior rather than misbehavior. They're not being bad if they're just like, and they can't tell you why they're upset. A lot of the use of the word dysregulation here, which is a word that I feel saved me for a lot of this period of my life. that it's kind of like the thing that you say, like the lady says we have to leave the park.
8:46For me as a mom, dysregulation became a word that for myself became a touchstone of, this isn't awful child trying to ruin my life. This is dysregulation. And it felt to me like it was a little bit outside of the behavior. Like, oh, you are dysregulated, which means you are laying on the floor of Target and kicking your feet because you saw an Elmo and that has meaning for you that I don't understand. That rather than like... And which you can't explain to me. It's just true. Right. Right. That rather than I need a diaper lotion for your sister, and you instead have chosen to ruin my life by like, oh, you're dysregulated.
9:34Okay, okay, so now we need to move a little bit faster. You need to, whatever we have to do to get out of target is what's going to happen. Not why were you put on earth to ruin my life, which sometimes is the story that would come up in my head instead.
9:49Heidi Raykeil:And it's okay. It's okay to feel that frustration, right? I think we've gone really far in our parenting culture. I think since my kids were born two decades ago, my oldest one, you know, that this has to be understood and unpacked right in the moment. So Alana Robinson says that when your kid is having their four-year-old limbic leap moment in Target, they're supposed to work together on calming down. But of course, there are places where that's easy to do. And there are places where it's not. You can't work on like, tell me five things you can see and tell me four things you can hear in the middle of Target while they're like, somebody's going to call security on you.
10:25Heidi Raykeil:It's not so easy. And I don't mean this in any sort of like blaming or shaming way, but I actually do not believe that that work should happen in Target. I don't think you should ruin other people's day doing that work, basically. Like Target is get out and maybe you have to leave the diaper cream behind, or maybe you just grab the diaper cream and your screaming child under your arm and you get through self-checkout, but I am not interested. And I will say now I have older kids and I'm grouchy all the time because that's my personality set point, but you've earned it. I've earned it. But I also at the time, like I do not think that working through your child's processes in a public place where your child is betraying the social norms is a good idea.
11:16We're all understanding to a certain degree, but right now fix it because we're outside like on a plane just shove graham crackers in your kid's face basically I don't necessarily want a half an hour of how are you feel let's work together on this I'm like no let's just get this tantrum dealt with here this is some work that can happen when we're at home and other places we don't need to make we don't need to work through
11:43Heidi Raykeil:it on other people's time I guess I would say yeah I'm with you on that and I think maybe the let's work together on calming down when feeling stressed having worked on some of this stuff for myself and with my kids the time to do it is unfortunately not when you're already stressed right i've been learning about um meditation with one of my kids and my kid is very resistant to it like i don't like it like i spend five minutes on that it makes me agitated and the person who's walking us through it was like yeah that's gonna happen it's gonna happen for like 30 days 60 days it takes a while doing meditation before you find that plumb line that can take you right down to feeling relaxed, you have to get through, you have to do it 60 times or so before you start to be like, oh, there it is.
12:23Heidi Raykeil:And then it's there for you. But you can't do it when you're already stressed for the first time for five minutes and then decide it doesn't work. Unfortunately. So yeah, this work is to be done with storybooks and talking at times when they are calm, if you can find such a time when your kid is amidst their limbic leap. Yeah. And I think that the idea of I think I actually use the term with my kids, like, you're super dysregulated, but we're in target right now, and we have to get this done, is one approach. And then when you're home, it can be a little bit more, hey, you're super dysregulated, let's work together to find the solution.
13:00Let's figure out how we calm these things down. And I think that's just what you're saying. When you have a word for it, and we have said red brain on the podcast or different things, like this is red brain. And listen, I have teenagers and we're still having these conversations sometimes. Like I used to make the joke with my husband, there's a scene in The Shining, right, where he has his little pinky up and he's like, Mrs. Torrance is at home right now. And I will say, sometimes I will see my spouse saying, you really need to calm down. And I'm like, Mrs. Torrance is at home right now. Like there's no one in there.
13:34You're not actually reaching. You're just there's a screaming red blinking amygdala just barfing all over you right now and to try to in that time be like, you know, it's time to make a better choice. Like, no, Mrs. Torrance isn't home right now.
13:50Heidi Raykeil:That's right. All right. Let's take a break. When we come back, I think that this actually goes way beyond four-year-olds, unfortunately, unfortunately, and there's a reason for it. And we'll talk about that after this. Amy, you know that in our relationship, you have historically been the one to care about skincare. But let me tell you, Osea Skin Care is an award-winning bestseller for a reason. Osea has been delivering results you can see and feel for 30 years. And after several months of using Osea's Dream Bioretinol Body Serum, I myself am a true believer. I also have the Dream Bioretinol Body Serum right there next to my sink so I can use it at night and right after getting out of the shower.
14:31Heidi Raykeil:Like everything Osea makes, it's deeply moisturizing, but also silky and non-greasy, absorbs fast and works fast. I'm really seeing the difference on my chest or, as we say, in the skincare world, on my décolletage. Also, the Dream Bio Retinol Body Serum smells like lavender just the right amount, which puts me in the space I need to go right before my sleepy times. Give your skin a little TLC. Go to oseamalibu.com and get 10 % off your first order with code FRESH. That's O-S-E-A Malibu dot com code FRESH. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials. Their pieces are made to be worn again and again and go with everything in your closet.
15:18Heidi Raykeil:Seriously, Quince's short sleeve 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweaters are my daily basic. And at$50 a pop, I keep getting more colors. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 percent less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. True story. My kid was setting up her dorm room and looking online for bedding that she would think was cool and I would think was appropriately priced.
15:53Heidi Raykeil:Not an easy task until she said, oh, I know, let's look on Quince. Bada bing, bada boom, her dorm looks amazing. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash fresh. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. Gonna spell it. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash fresh. Amy, I can report that my house is in the very sad transition from the lazy, hazy days of summer to the oh-so-crazy first weeks of school. And it's insane. But our Skylight calendar makes it a little bit more manageable.
16:36It's so helpful to have a clear visual guide of everyone's daily schedule.
16:41Heidi Raykeil:Skylight's all-in-one digital smart calendar syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more, giving you customizable views for daily, weekly, or monthly planning. You can even manage events, chores, and grocery lists while on the go with the Skylight app, and it'll sync with the calendar at home. And if in four months you are not 100 % thrilled with your purchase, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash WFH.
17:16Go to MySkylight.com slash WFH for$30 off your 15-inch calendar.
17:23Heidi Raykeil:That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash WFH. So we've come from the future, as we like to say on this podcast. Our kids are. We are here from the future. Tweens and teens. And I have one who's even older than that. And so we've lived through this. And I feel like this four-year-old thing that our listener Amy is noticing will probably come back at 6 and 9 and 11. Not to be that specific, but it comes and it goes. And it's that that's typical, that kids change between times of vague regulation and times of dysregulation as they age. Yes. And I will say for kids with ADHD, kids on the spectrum, this can sometimes be super noticeable.
18:14And if you're part of special moms networks or people who talk about this, people will often have those kinds of questions like, whoa, whoa, whoa, does this happen a lot at six? Or does this happen a lot? And people do see, and I'm not sure it's even that interesting to connect it to a specific age, because I think that can vary. But certainly, bursts of difficult behavior happening at specific times is something that I think we see repeat.
18:43Heidi Raykeil:So there's this woman, Louise Bates Ames. She died in 1996, but she worked at the Yale Child Studies Center. And she pioneered this idea that kids switch back and forth as they age. And I tried to find the picture to show you today, and I couldn't find it because her research dates It's back to the 80s. But it looks like a DNA helix. It just swirls around. Imagine something that swirls around like a wind chime or something, right? That that's how they develop. They develop in this swirling uphill spiral staircase that has a regulation side and a dysregulation side. And as kids age, their brain grows and then they synthesize what they've learned and how they've developed.
19:22Heidi Raykeil:And then there's another period of growth, another period of synthesization, and they go back and forth. It makes a ton of sense. And it makes a ton of sense. Right now I have early teenagers and tweens still. And sometimes they'll go away for a week to camp and they'll come back and they look, you know, three inches taller and just broad, just different. And I think, gosh, you're doing such a lot of work right now, just growing. It does make me feel sympathy for what can sometimes be challenging days of who am I going to get out of the box today? You know, angel or demon from beyond, basically.
20:01And it is, there's a lot of reason for this. It makes a ton of sense when you just look at the pace at which they're growing and changing.
20:08Heidi Raykeil:Right. So Louise Bates Ames wrote this series of books in the 80s that were actually recommended to me, like in the 2000s. They're still around. Have you seen them? They're like, you're one-year-old, the fun-loving fussy. You're a two-year-old, terrible or tender. There's one there's these little slim volumes and there's one for each year. So they're dated in a lot of ways. They definitely assume like mom is a primary caregiver and dad goes off to work. They assume that there's normal. I'm using that term in quotes, normal behavior for a boy or a girl, normal ways to behave. It is for the record, actually making quote ease.
20:44Heidi Raykeil:I'm air quoting. Yeah. So be advised, right, that there is not everything about these books is perfect, but it does sort of play out this idea. So she said, I thought this was interesting. She said, your four-year-old was wild and wonderful. And she wrote, we have found the boy and girl of this age to be joyous, exuberant, energetic, ridiculous, ready for anything. And she actually wrote that three-year-olds were friend or enemy. And then five-year-olds, I don't have the five-year-old title, but it would be like nice or not so nice. These books, if you look at them on the shelf, that was her whole thing.
21:14Heidi Raykeil:Like one's great, two's terrible, three's great, four's terrible, or the other way around. And sometimes people reject them because like, well, my four-year-old was terrible, but it doesn't matter. You might be reading the six-year-old book might sound more like your seven-year-old or your five-year-old, but they just hold you in this like, yep, this is what happens now. They're going to be kind of like this for a little while, and then they're going to change into something else. Well, Jerry Seinfeld has a great joke that I've quoted before that every year, it's great because when you have kids, every year, you're like, all right, I'm ready for this to be done, whatever it is.
21:45I'm ready to see what's next from two to three. You know, like, I'm all set. Thanks with the two year old behavior. Let's see what three is all about. And obviously, calendar years and development have no correlation. It's like after 365 days, a new door closes and something else begins. That's how it works. Right. But in general, there are eras of childhood that you're kind of like, I'm all set with this two year old, you know, it was adorable while it lasted, but I'm ready for three, whatever it can't wait for the box to show us something else one morning right yeah and they do I have a they absolutely do and I have a four-year-old niece right now just turning five but she is one of those kids who's just got like her personality is at a 12 all the time and she is Miss Largen in charge she who must be obeyed and it is so funny to be around her but then I think like oh her mom's got to take her home at the end of this.
22:44Like she's got to deal with all this stuff. This is every day's bath time. This is every day's dinner. And for me, it's the show. And I just like, I can't wait to see it. I love it so much. But you do remember like, right, that shows going on 24 seven at their house.
Read the full transcript
23:02Heidi Raykeil:One of the reasons people say like, you shouldn't read these books, they're dated and whatever their reasons they're definitely are dated. And this one, like, I'm less sure that this is reason not to read these books, because they do value what they call normal, again, kid behavior as sitting nicely, listening to parents. And so the argument is, well, that's not proper child development. That's easy to handle. That's different. That's not what we're supposed to be attuning to. We're supposed to be attuning to our child's emotional development, not to whether they're docile. That's not the end result, you're easy to handle.
23:31Heidi Raykeil:But when we're talking about how impossible a kid is being, that is what we're talking about, right? That doesn't mean that should never be considered at all. Like this kid is a nightmare and target every time we go. You're not a bad person for adding that to your list of concerns. And life exists on a spectrum, right? There's a famous example that at this, you know, religious college, that it's very notable when you see it, because the students all walk in a straight line and then turn to stay on the crossing sidewalks, right? That the idea is you see this super religious college, and that the kids, you know, whereas if you saw like a regular, again, air quotes, college campus, the kids are cutting across the lawns and they're wandering here, there and everywhere.
24:14And what you want your kid to have is tools. Like you don't necessarily want your kid to always like walk in a straight line and then make a 90 degree turn and turn right as the sidewalk turns. You want them to be able to like cutting across the lawn and relaxing. There are different modes of operation and outcomes for kids, but it is useful to have a wide toolbox for kids. And I think speaking as the parent of children who have had maybe exceptional problems sitting still, yes, I don't love going to school every day and hearing about how my five-year-old won't sit on the square. And that is like the greatest heartache of the teacher.
24:55And how could you have such a terrible child that they don't like to sit on the square? I'm like, yeah, could you maybe not judge my kid by sitting on the square? It's like judging a fish's ability to ride a bicycle. It's not useful. But at the same time, I want to push my kid to be able to sit as still as that child can possibly sit because that's a skill that helps them function in the world. And so I understand that you don't only want to judge kids by the rigors of walking in a straight line and turning 90 degrees. but it's a useful metric at a certain point for how our kids are doing and functioning.
25:33Heidi Raykeil:I feel like there might be two different things that get lumped together. Like a kid who, quote, sits nicely is a regulated kid. And there are kids who can't sit on a square, but are completely happy-go-lucky. Good point. Very good point. They don't necessarily go together. And then there are probably kids who are extremely dysregulated who are good at sitting still. And there are kids who are extremely dysregulated who were like, you know, that's a very good point. And that's exactly right, that I think that what you want to get at underneath this all is not life is sitting on the blue square every time you're asked, but is your inability to sit on the blue square part of a dysregulation that is a problem for you as a child, connecting it not to outcomes, because you can almost certainly see also North Korea, like get people to do almost anything by being really, really strict and scary with them.
26:30Probably there are kids for whom this wouldn't work, but most kids you can browbeat into behaving correctly. But we know that we don't want that relationship, like a scary browbeater, so that you appear to other people to be normal, no matter how dysregulated you are inside. we want to meet them at some point where it's like we want you to be the most regulated version of yourself for your own personal happiness and then we want you to be able to like cut across
26:58Heidi Raykeil:the lawn sometimes it's like i'm gonna quote rebecca onion here she's a senior editor at slate she wrote about the louise bates ames books and why there may be still useful these days so i'll put the link in the show notes and she wrote reading an ames book you get the idea that she has the parent's happiness in mind as much as the child's, an attitude that cuts against the intensive parenting norms of 21st century America. But I want you to even finish that sentence, because it says the intensive parenting norms of 21st century America that seem to demand parental sacrifice at all costs. Right, right.
27:32Heidi Raykeil:If your kid's having a meltdown in Target, then you're not doing a good enough job parenting or attending to their emotional needs, and you need to read more articles instead of you've got a kid who's impossible probably for six months, and then it will get better. And this has been a touchstone for my parenting. When I was trying to like sleep train my kids, my sister in law's mom is pediatrician. And I was asking her a lot of questions at the time about how to do it and how to do this and that. And she said from the very beginning, I like to take a 50 50 approach. So it's 50 % your needs and 50 % the child's needs.
28:08So the child needs sleep, but you also need sleep. So you might be able to stay up 24 hours a day and like sleep train your child so that they sleep perfectly. But that's not good for you. You can't stay up. You have to get sleep too. And so I think of that all the time to this day is this idea of, yes, I want my child to be emotionally healthy, but not by throwing my emotional health in a threshing machine to get ground up. I have to be happy as well. So we can all sacrifice ourselves entirely to make sure that our kids' needs are met. But that's not good fundamentally for the health of either one of us in the long term.
28:49Well said. Thank you. It really got it. Shout out to Dr. Fayette. She's the one who told me that early on. OK, we'll be right back. Okay, folks, for the first time ever, I have a kid who is truly out of the house. I can't wait up for a teenager to come home who doesn't even live at my home or answer my texts. I don't need an FBI surveillance fan. I just need signs of life, Amy.
29:15Heidi Raykeil:Is that fair? I know exactly what you mean. It's time for Hey Polo, a family safety app that keeps families connected and safe so you're not wearing where your kids are on top of everything else. And your family members get to share their data on their own terms. They can choose to share their exact location, general area, or put the app in private mode, which I think my kids would really appreciate. And your kids can always send out an emergency SOS if they need help, which instantly alerts trusted contacts and shares their exact location. That is the kind of thing that gives a mom away from her kid peace of mind.
29:50Heidi Raykeil:A single Hey Polo subscription covers your whole family or group with unlimited members and unlimited groups. Plus, there's a no questions asked 30 day money back guarantee. And importantly, Hey Polo never shares, sells or monetizes your family's location data. No ads, no data brokers, no hidden tradeoffs. Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to HeyPolo.com slash hell and use code hell and get 70 percent off your first year. That's code HELL at heypolo.com slash HELL. Fall is the perfect time for a back-to-one, new routines, and maybe a little more attention to the things you may have put off over the summer.
30:32Heidi Raykeil:If your hair could use an autumn reset, it's time for NutraFall. NutraFall is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. And now the Nutrafol Women's Formula has been upgraded to its most advanced version yet. It's 100 % vegan, biotin-free, and comes in a smaller capsule size to make your daily routine easier. That is huge. I really like the smaller capsule size. It makes a difference. Agree. Whether you're just starting your hair health journey or you've been taking Nutrafol for years, this update means you can now get their most advanced support yet.
31:10C. Thicker. Stronger. Faster-growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months.
31:17Heidi Raykeil:Right now, Nutrafol is offering our listeners$10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code LAUGHING. That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code LAUGHING.
31:37and now a list of things that used to be fine but now your tween finds totally embarrassing from the what fresh l podcast putting notes in their lunchbox could you stop doing that
31:50Heidi Raykeil:asking them how their day was can we talk about this later being seen in public with you in any context could you just stand a little farther away from me any form of singing we're not gonna take it. No! Oh, Mom, please stop. Preparing their favorite foods. I don't like chocolate chip pancakes anymore. Smiling of any sort. Cut that out, please. Your humorous use of emojis. Heart eyes. Really, Mom? Making conversation with their friends. This is so embarrassing. Trying to take their picture. Are you done? This is so humiliating. Giving them a ride to school. I'll just walk from here. Attempting to discuss current bands.
32:35Seriously, I don't even know who One Direction is. The way you breathe. It's very annoying. This has been a list of things that used to be fine, but now your tween finds totally embarrassing. From the What Fresh Hell podcast.
32:51Heidi Raykeil:Hey honey, that's as cool as Gryffindor. I've never been so embarrassed in all my life.
33:01Heidi Raykeil:So I wanted to go back to Amy's original question that started this episode. You know, I have a four-year-old who's saving all this super difficult stuff. For me, it seems to have come out of nowhere. And what do I do about it? And I have two bits of advice here that I think are really sound. One is from Louise Bates Ames, who wrote the books we've been talking about. She argued that kids in this dysregulated stage, which for her, she thought was more like three and a half when this happens. But she argued just more alternate caregivers for a while. They should be with alternate caregivers quite a bit while this is happening.
33:33Heidi Raykeil:This is her speaking to break up the power struggles between mother and child. Just spread it around. Don't feel guilty that your kid is nicer for your parenting partner than for you. Lean into it and you handle bath time for a while. And you like the expression and it's really useful. Drop the rope. You and the kid are playing tug of war. And so this is the solution is to drop your side of the rope. You're not playing. And I want to acknowledge, I remember when we started the podcast, I think I had a two-year-old. My kids were really little and your kids were, you know, you were always maybe five years in the future, right?
34:05Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. My youngest and Margaret's oldest are about the same age. And then my oldest was five years older than that. That's right. So I had kids five years ahead of you, at least. Yeah. So your oldest is probably close to 10 years older than my youngest. So you were in the future from some of this stuff. and I remember you talking about how when your kids kind of turn on you and do this kind of behavior that Amy is talking about that it would hurt your feelings and I remember so clearly kind of laughing about that at the time like really it hurts your feelings because I was dealing with a four-year-old who was like I don't yike you mommy and I would just laugh at it of course haha who cares I think it's really important to acknowledge that this can be very painful this behavior because I didn't think it was painful when my four-year-old did it, but I definitely think it's painful when my 14-year-old does it and my 10-year-old does it.
34:57And I think that some people probably find it painful when their four-year-old or two-year-old does it. And that this is another reason why spreading the caregiving out, that sometimes that feeling of only I can do it, only I know what my child likes and needs is very powerful for us as well. But it's a dangerous risk game, being the only person who, because the pain of that person turning on you is exponentially painful if you're the only person getting it. Does that make sense what I just said? Yes.
35:32Heidi Raykeil:I have a truth bomb for you. This is Tova Klein, who we're going to have on the show this fall. She's the director of the Barnard College Center for Toddler Development. And this is what she says. I'm a Barnard grad, so I love to hear from her. She says this totally yes, that when your kid is in this regulated, dysregulated stage, if you have somebody else that that kid can be spending more time with for a little while, go for it. She says, the message still is the more you're with the children, the better, but that's not what the data shows. This is Tova Klein. It's true for infants. Oh, I love this.
36:02Heidi Raykeil:This is just what I was talking about. She says, it's true for infants with maternity leaves, but when your kids get older, it's the quality of time you spend. Here's the part I'm underlining, you know, with red pen three times. The child cannot be the full focus of a mother's life, the sole focus of your identity, because then when a child's having a normal but challenging period, you feel terrible. And you don't want that for yourself. And you certainly don't want that for your child. I remember at my first job out of college, I was working as a paralegal temp, the law office temp, basically.
36:37And I was kind of, you know, Oh, I've stapled it perfectly. Oh, I got, they were so happy with the copies I made. And kind of in that mode. And this rather grizzled guy who became a good friend of mine eventually, who'd been there a long time. And he said, if you take their praise, you have to take their criticism. And his whole point was, if you get too attached to being like, I get a gold star for my good work, when they're like, you messed this up, you idiot, it's going to crush you. But guess what? You're not an idiot when you do it wrong, and you're not brilliant when you do it correctly.
37:20You're doing a job. You're a human interacting with the world. You're going to do some things well. And I never really thought about how much it applies to being a mother, too, that if you accept the premise that it is your job to make everything about this child's life go well, you're setting yourself up to run into the biggest brick wall because it's not all going to go well. And guess what? You don't have that much control over how it turns out or how it goes. And you also, voice from the future, give that child a tremendous amount of control over your emotional health. If you hand to them, my happiness depends on how you turn out.
38:03Well said. It's not going to go well. They're going to stab you in the heart with that when they're 12 and it's going to kill you.
38:10Heidi Raykeil:They don't really want to think they have that sort of control over you, even if they do. So if you're really I'm talking about when your kids get older. Yeah, they don't like to see you upset. That's such a good point. It is too much for your children to think they have that amount of emotional control. And I do think that I'm fortunate that I have a sister who lives close by. We kind of sister wives, our kids to a certain degree. You know, my kids are with her, her kids are with me and my husband after I think a period of being very busy, especially post pandemic. I feel like we are very much 50, 50 parents in our kids' lives.
38:45I'm happy to be traveling this week and he's home with them. The idea that like, we are all responsible for you. And also, you don't have power over any of us either, because we all exist outside of you. It feels very emotionally healthy in a way that I don't think I had that relationship as easily when my kids were younger. And I had three kids in four and a half years. And I lived and died by Those kids, I was on such an emotional roller coaster all the time. And I will say from the future, I'm very glad I got off of it.
39:19Heidi Raykeil:You know, and it's not as easy as no, no, no. And Kate is going to take you to karate today. Like your four year old who's having their limbic leap might not like that. They might have a huge meltdown about that because they are dysregulated and you are their safe place. This isn't necessarily going to go like immediately smoothly. Like you're going away for the weekend. But let's go back to what you said about meditation and the plumb line. this doesn't happen in 30 days. This isn't like, wait, actually, this is making me more stress. Of course it is in the short term. But I think in the times that I have found myself most troubled by my relationship with my kids have been the times where I am the most deep in and enmeshed in my relationship with my kids.
40:06I think that's a fair statement that the times where, And listen, there have been times where I needed a certain grader to pass a test to get out of that grade, or I wanted this kid to learn to ride a bike, or I wanted this kid to get their scouting thing that they needed to accomplish, whatever it was. And I was extremely dialed in and invested because it is important. And don't what I'm not saying is like, let go, mom, you're so tight and you're so overly into your kid mom. And that's the problem, mom. And if you would just stop, it's not what I'm saying. But I think it's always useful to calibrate for yourself, like, what is causing the amount of conflict that we have right now?
40:52And is there room for one or both of us to drop the rope or take a step back and say, we are so up in each other's faces with stuff right now? Are there ways to take a step back? Or do I just say, my kid is limbic leaping, and I recognize that. So I'm going to work on myself and taking deep breaths when the emotionality and craziness.
41:19Heidi Raykeil:I have a completely unproven theory about this. Hit me. I love an unproven theory. I have written about this, but I am not a I'm not a neuroscientist. I've just observed it in my life, having more than one kid, that your kids go through these periods of dysregulation and they can start on a dime, right? They just all of a sudden one morning are crying about raisin bread and you're like, wait, you love raisin bread. What are we doing? But just as suddenly in my experience, that same kid will be like, good morning, come down the stairs. And you're like, who's this? After you've been spending six months with the Wicked Witch of the West, all of a sudden your kid is completely compliant and nice.
41:51Heidi Raykeil:That can happen just as suddenly. That's part one. And part two, that is about when another one of your kids will pick up the baton and become the dysregulated kid. I feel like kids sense that it's like, it's your turn to be impossible. And now it's my turn to be impossible. And they're like, okay, I've had a good long run. I'm, you know, I'm almost three now. So here, I'll let you have this seven year old and you're going to start falling apart about math homework every night. Enjoy it. That they just sort of, they know they can't be more than one of these at a time. So they take turns. I want to talk as two Irish ladies about the changeling that like there is a mythical idea of the changeling, right?
42:30This is a fairy or a demon who comes and takes your child and replaces it. It's a piece of lore and they've made... What do they replace it with?
42:41Heidi Raykeil:And there's another kid. It's still your kid. It still looks like your kid, but they've been replaced by what? Like a fairy version of your kid? What do they get replaced with. It's just something it only looks like your kid, but it's not them anymore. There's been a movie called The Changelink. Like it's an idea, right? That your child has been replaced with another child by a fairy, or maybe it's like a demonic possession kind of idea. I should read more about Changelinks because I reference it sometimes. But this like Mrs. Torrance isn't home right now. This is the same idea that there's a reason why the vampire myth, is that a vampire can't come in unless you invite it.
43:19That is a myth that gets to, you have to invite trouble into your life. These myths and these horror characters exist because of something that we see true, that we invite trouble in, that we invite bad people into our lives. That's the vampire myth. And the changeling is, why is my four-year-old suddenly a nightmare? It's a changeling. It's a different kid, right? It's a different kid. It must be that the fairies came and took my sweet child and replaced it with this monster child because I don't recognize this child.
43:54Heidi Raykeil:And that might be incredibly healthy, right? Like if you were, you know, an Irish bog person 250 years ago, you'd be like, maybe it's a changeling anyway and keep sweeping your floor. You wouldn't be like, I have to read more books. I have to change my parenting. I have to do all this. It's just like, yeah, it seemed really different all of a sudden. the fairies came and switched out my lovely normal child with this beast. So also, Amy from Facebook, I want you to consider that it was a changeling, that your child has been possessed by a fairy and is a changeling, but much more likely. And are they coming back?
44:26Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how the changeling works.
44:30Heidi Raykeil:We need more changeling research. We're going to do a whole other episode on changelings. but I just think it's funny to think that for millennia people have been saying where is my sweet child and back in the day they were like ah the changeling came huh it's the fairies that took them but now we have the Barnard Center for Child Research and we have all sorts of other experts who can walk us through and help us what do you think about my idea though that they kind of like your kids change places and so they like hand off the baton and one of them is impossible and then they get nice. And that's about when the next one turns impossible.
45:07Yeah. Well, that's why my brother famously said, when I had a baby, how's it going? And I said, I have good days and bad days. And he said, well, have more kids, then you can have good days and bad days on the same day. And it's true. Like, right. There's always somebody giving you a hassle. Oh, right. Right. But it doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. But I also think definitely doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. And it does sometimes when you have multiple kids help with the dropping of the rope. Like I can't hold three ropes and play tug of war with all you people at the same time, you know?
45:36Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. And I do like our solution overall, that is let it go a little bit more. I think that's sort of the key to this is rather that sometimes when we see something change, our solution is like, we got to get in there. And then I think what we've come to is we got to take a step back instead. Because when they all of a sudden turn impossibly like what am I doing wrong I had to fix this or else I'll have an impossible child forever but really it'll probably be for about six months and then they'll be completely nice again and then it'll probably happen again or there'll be some different kind of horrible that's also possible but whatever it is don't worry it's gonna change again just go with it it'll change again just when you figure it out it'll change again that's right totally solved Amy friends we are looking forward to seeing you out on the road this fall.
46:26Our first show is right around the corner in Charlotte, North Carolina on the 18th. Find all of our fall tour dates on our website, whatfreshhealthpodcast.com. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. Talk to you next time. Thanks.
46:51Hey, I've got the campaign brief ready, built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape.
46:57Heidi Raykeil:Approved? Oh, agents, where would we be without you? Somewhere with a lot more tabs open. Create your first Monday agent in minutes at monday.com.
From the publisher
This Deep Dive series is all about reducing the friction between ourselves and our kids when trying to communicate with them, whether it's yelling less, finding real reasons for constant defiance, or picking our battles.
Why do formerly-sunny kids turn overnight into little tornadoes of defiance and aggression? A listener posted this question in our Facebook group:
My four-year-old daughter has recently developed a special, defiant, boundary-testing, aggressive version of herself that she saves only for me. I can’t make sense of it at all. WFH, send help!
In this episode, we explain why
these sudden onsets of periods of dysregulation are completely normal
almost every kid will go through this—and a lot of four-year-olds, although not they do not have exclusive ownership of this sort of behavior
and why most kids alternate between periods of regulation and dysregulation repeatedly as they grow and mature.
These difficult stretches don't mean you're doing anything wrong as a parent. They don't mean you need to lock everything down because your kid will be a tornado forever. But they also don't mean mean you need to become the 24/7 punching bag for your dysregulated kid. Here's what to do instead.
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Rebecca Onion for Slate: Why These Child Psych Books From the 1980s Are All Over Parenting Facebook Groups Today
Allana Robinson for Mom Halo: Here's why your 4 year old's behaviour is out of control
Uncommon Sense Parenting with Allana Robinson: What Exactly Is Stress?
Louise Bates Ames: Your Four-Year-Old: Wild and Wonderful
Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to https://heypolo.com/hell or use code HELL and get 70% off your first year!
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
