In short
How one family member’s emotional dysregulation (kid, parent, or partner) can “run the house,” disrupting routines, causing conflict, and affecting siblings; strategies include radical honesty, validation, fair-but-not-equal support, and planning for dysregulation episodes.
Guests
Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson, hosts of What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. They discuss parenting/household dynamics and cite expert ideas (e.g., Jane Indergaard on siblings of kids with ADHD; Jeffrey Bernstein; a Tourette’s communication study).
Key claims
The dysregulated person often isn’t choosing to be “bad,” but their behavior meets unmet needs (e.g., boundaries, safety, control). Over-accommodation and secrecy worsen dynamics. Siblings feel isolated and unsafe when rules seem to disappear; family cohesion improves with open, healthy communication.
Notable examples
kid with ADHD rejection sensitivity; perimenopause/PMDD/postpartum anxiety; medication side effects (steroids after strep); “kid B might see someone” changing restaurant plans; “tiger patrol” mornings; fairness = giving each person what they need.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Family Dynamics
0:01 to 0:21
Discussion on how one family member's emotions can dominate household dynamics.
“That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now.”
Understanding Family Dynamics
0:47 to 3:16
Discussion on how one family member's emotions can dominate household dynamics.
“Come spend six months at my house and see how you do in this situation.”
Factors Affecting Household Emotional Regulation
3:16 to 6:23
Exploration of various factors that can lead to emotional dysregulation in children.
“shall we say, not the best, Amy, not the best.”
The Responsibilities of Emotional Dysregulation
6:23 to 9:10
Discussion on how children with emotional issues don’t want the responsibility of their actions.
“Like they're not actually like sitting in their room at night, like, and then tomorrow I'm going to ruin family dinner by throwing the garlic bread.”
Accommodating Behavior vs. Healthy Boundaries
9:10 to 13:25
Insights on balancing accommodations for children's needs without enabling poor behavior.
“And what they may be seeking is boundaries.”
Navigating Family Tensions
13:25 to 14:00
Understanding how family members can unintentionally exacerbate dynamics with their actions.
“someone is ruling the day through their dysregulation or their unreasonability, if that is a word, which it probably is not.”
Navigating Family Dynamics
14:00 to 16:19
Explore how family members impact one another's moods and behaviors.
“Why do you chew in front of him when you know he doesn't like when you chew?”
Navigating Family Dynamics
16:26 to 17:53
Explore how family members impact one another's moods and behaviors.
“Now available in Canada and the UK, too.”
Impact of Emotional Dysregulation
19:19 to 28:01
Understand how one child's mood can affect family life and sibling relationships.
“Like we're always running late because this one kid has a crying jag in the morning, right?”
Understanding Emotional Dysregulation
28:01 to 29:59
Explore how emotional dysregulation in family members affects children and family dynamics.
“which is like, it's going to pop, and then it's going to go back in the box.”
Show all 17 chapters
Creating a Safe Home Environment
30:00 to 31:04
Learn the importance of making your home a sanctuary for all family members, especially those struggling emotionally.
“They do need to feel safe at home and you need to make your home feel safe.”
Creating a Safe Home Environment
32:40 to 33:36
Learn the importance of making your home a sanctuary for all family members, especially those struggling emotionally.
“Fall is the perfect time for a back to one, new routines, and maybe a little more attention to the things you may have put off over the summer.”
The Importance of Honest Communication
33:55 to 39:28
Discuss the significance of honest family communication in managing emotional challenges.
“You couldn't make it sunny when it was raining at the park.”
Navigating Fairness and Needs in Family
39:29 to 41:41
Understand the difference between fairness and equality in meeting family members' needs.
“And I think you can give voice to that too.”
Humor as a Tool for Family Dynamics
41:42 to 42:00
Explore how humor can help alleviate tension in families dealing with emotional challenges.
“But I also think this is a place where the more open you're about it, the more you can have acknowledging and funny conversations that can kind of help everybody in this situation.”
Managing Emotional Dynamics in Families
42:00 to 46:54
Learn strategies for managing moods and emotional dynamics within a family.
“Remember, we're on tiger patrol this morning.”
Understanding Fairness in Parenting
46:54 to 47:19
Discover the concept that fairness means meeting individual needs, not equality.
“You want to just work on yourself and figure out how to be that strength.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com. Find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.
0:33Heidi Grant:Nobody's doing things that don't get them what they need. You do things because they get you what you need. What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. In our house, kid number two's cranky mood runs everything. With Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson. Come spend six months at my house and see how you do in this situation. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to. Are you serious right now? I mean, your latest statement, much like all of your previous statements, is simultaneously ill-informed, outdated, and deeply offensive. Check yourself, mom.
1:13Heidi Grant:Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. And today we're going to talk about when one family member's emotions run the house. Have we all been there? I mean, I don't know if you've been there, friends. Raise your hand if you haven't been there. Oh, I see nobody has their hands raised. Yeah, yeah. And is it okay if we're this person? Or are we only talking about the other people? I thought we should start by going through like the ways that this can come to be. And yeah, like, I don't want to admit it. but there are times when it has been me in my house.
1:49Heidi Grant:It's you. Hi, you're the problem. It's you. I was the monster. Right. I mean, like postpartum anxiety or perimenopause or PMDD, which is when you're, you know, PMS actually makes you have dysphoria for a couple of days a month. These are things that are real. And it's not saying you're a bad person to say that those have run your household sometimes, I think. Yes. there's something called irritable male syndrome, which really needs its own episode. I have no idea what that would be. I'm not familiar at all. But apparently, sometimes men can get very irritable and the whole family deals with that.
2:24Heidi Grant:It's funny, because I don't have an irritable male. But I mean, we'll talk about this as we go on. But it's interesting that some people's emotions rule the household by loud verbal outbursts. And some people's emotions rule the house by like, quiet, nerve wracking stress that just kind of seeps, you know what I'm saying? Like, not everyone's emotions rule the house in the same way, I would say. That's right. And then you can have this sort of like anxiety, crying jag, you know, sort of thing running the house that isn't yelling or throwing things, but it's still, we can't go to that restaurant because Kid B might see somebody she knows there, so we have to pick a different restaurant that can run the house too.
3:09Heidi Grant:Yes, that's right. There's a lot of ways for one person's need to rule the day in a way that is, shall we say, not the best, Amy, not the best. It's not the best. It can affect dynamics. So, all right. So to tick through some of the reasons that this might be a kid can have ADHD with the rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is often part of ADHD, which is like little rejections seem like a huge deal to you. Distracts. Also, people with ADHD, like the dopamine. I was just seeing some influencer on Instagram last night talking about like when you yell at your kid with ADHD, like, of course, they don't like it.
3:46But a little part of them does like it because it's a hit of dopamine.
3:49Heidi Grant:I said maybe on our first ever episode that the pediatrician told me like kids love a jack-in-the-box like they love it because they're like I know if I keep winding it'll pop eventually and that is also true for all ages and stages of kids with their parents but I'm gonna say mostly their moms no probably their dads too but like if I poke the bear enough he will roar and it's like that's what I want to see in some weird way. Right, exactly. And it's like, yep, there it is. There it is. I knew you didn't love me. I've been waiting for that. Kids can have low frustration tolerance. Like that can be its own thing.
4:30Kids can have oppositional defiant disorder or just seem like they do for a year or two. Sure. Kids can have, have you ever had a kid on medication? Like I had a kid on steroids for repeated strep throat that we couldn't get rid of. And oh my god, we got rid of the strep throat. But not a demon moved into our house for like three weeks. Like truly like what is happening? And it was the medication that a kid is even taking necessarily for an emotional issue, but it can cause an emotional issue. Yeah. Am I forgetting anything?
5:03Heidi Grant:Jet lag. We're dealing with it at my house right now. And it's rough. Yeah. Lack of sleep, trauma, trauma that is reverberating at times you're not expecting it to. So like, perhaps a trauma that happened three years ago is being triggered by something invisible that you are not witness to. So a lot of the things were like, it's coming out of nowhere. You're like, huh, that's not what I'm seeing. And it's, you know, that kind of stuff, I think, can be very mysterious. And also the huge umbrella category of who knows why, you know, like, and that can be that trauma. We had an incident that happened where I live that was extremely traumatic for a group of kids in the town.
5:53And, you know,
5:55Heidi Grant:that trauma has reverberated for several years and in different ways. And you don't always know, like, is it attached to that? Is it something different? There was certainly this thing, Maybe that's what's bubbling up, but maybe it's because their friend wouldn't let them sit with them at lunch, too. Like you often don't necessarily know what particular factor is tapping into the molten volcano of terror. Like what all these things seem to me to have in common is that in almost every case, the person, usually the kid whose dysregulation is running the household, doesn't actually want that responsibility.
6:33right? Like they're not actually like sitting in their room at night, like, and then tomorrow I'm going to ruin family dinner by throwing the garlic bread. They don't want that responsibility. They are not entirely in control of how this thing is starting to manipulate the family dynamics.
6:48Heidi Grant:Let me, yes, and kind of in a pushbacky way. I think my mother, the therapist would have said, nobody's doing things that don't get them what they need. You do things because they get you what you need. And so I do think the emotionally unregulated kid does get something they need out of running the house through their out-of-control emotions, but that need is not particularly healthy or good. Like, yes, they're not calculatingly ruining everyone's lives for fun, almost certainly, but on the flip side, they're seeking something through that behavior too. And I think that part of it is figuring out what they're seeking and can we meet it in a different way.
7:36I mean, yeah. Although like if your kid has oppositional defiant disorder, they're wired that way. Right. And that they they're oppositional because that's how their brain is working right now. And and again, you still have to work with it, but it isn't like. Right.
7:49Heidi Grant:So but even there, they're seeking pulling something toxic out of their body and putting it on other people. Like there's a reason why it's happening. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean that like, huh, they're getting what they need, which is annoying you. They're getting what they need, which is like pulling something terrible out of themselves and throwing it at other people. And so that's it. I don't think they're calculating and I don't think they're like, I really love the feeling of being the worst person in the family who's making everyone's lives miserable. And possibly, as you said, what they need is to fulfill their own prophecy that they are the worst person in the family and that they are making everyone miserable.
8:33Children often ask for love in the most unlovable of ways, right? But it isn't like they can turn this on and off. I feel like sometimes they can. Sometimes a kid who didn't nap today needs to get their act together, maybe, right? And then sometimes these needs are like bigger and more profound. I guess I'm just saying like they're running the household than the person who's running the house with their bad moods probably also wishes their bad moods weren't running their own lives, but they are.
8:58Heidi Grant:I 100 % agree with that. And I want to be careful that when I say needs, like, I don't mean they're having fun doing it. I mean that there's something that is paying off for them. And what they may be seeking is boundaries. And like, we often use the term boundary seeking behavior. And that is there a point, I have a strong sense internally that I am unloved. And therefore, I will push you until you admit that you don't love me with your behavior, your actions, your reactions. And so you get into like a tough cycle where I will continue horrible, unlovable behavior until you admit you don't love me because that is my own self-definition.
9:45Heidi Grant:And at a certain point, you are kind of like, kid, you're driving me crazy. This is not lovable. Like I love you, but this is not lovable what you're doing. So let's talk about some of the ways you can start to run the show, right? Because I think breaking them down, I realized I've collected this from a lot of expert opinions and I'll put the link in the show notes, but these are a lot of different ways that it can start to run the show because they seem the same, but they're not necessarily. So the first one is accommodation that you start to make decisions that will make the kid or the person who is dysregulated feel a different way, but not necessarily what's best.
10:21Like, okay, fine, you can have the ice cream. Okay, fine, you can have another show, right? Rather than have the blow up, I'm just going to accommodate. So I get you to be docile.
10:30Heidi Grant:Right? Or you've blown through my boundaries, and I'm going to say nothing about it. Meaning like you're cursing violently at your little sister. And that feels very out of control to me and is something I never imagined allowing in my house. But if I try to stop you, I'm going to make everything worse. So I'm not going to say anything. Right. Like choosing your battles, right? And that's I think there are times when choosing your battles is very important, but it can also tip into over accommodation. For sure. One kid in the family gets to curse and the other two don't, because it's not worth telling that kid to stop.
11:04Heidi Grant:This behavior works, which makes it difficult to stop because, you know, I know in my case that the kid who doesn't like long car trips, I'm more likely to say, can we not bring this kid along? Can we figure out another way? Maybe we shouldn't go. I'm going to have to listen to the kid complain the whole time about the long car trip. My kid who struggles with eating a variety of foods will be nice to all go out to that nice dinner, but I'm going to have to bring this one and there's nothing to be nothing right there. Like you do, of course, we're all tired and exhausted. And who wants to take the hard path when the path of we could just not go to dinner, right?
11:46Heidi Grant:Or I could just let this person scream like crazy, because I don't have the fight in me anymore. Can you just please go eat in the other room? Because you know that he doesn't like the sound of your chewing. So can you leave the table? Right, right, right. Yeah. And of course, that is counterproductive, because kids learn to regulate their emotions by having difficult emotions. Yes. And working through them, like smoothing, constantly smoothing the path of the very cranky child is not really going to teach that child to be less cranky. Like you're winning the moment, but you're losing the... Yes.
12:21Heidi Grant:Although, and I mean, this is going to be one of these conversations, like, yes, but yes, but yes, but on the other hand... On the other hand, two things can be true. There are accommodations that make a lot of sense. Like I do have a kid who struggles with mealtime for a variety of reasons. And there are times where I let that child eat in another room. We have a little dining room outside the kitchen. Fine, you can eat by yourself tonight. Then I quickly realized that was becoming, oh, it's because they want to watch their screen during dinner, which is not allowed at dinnertime. So you can do that, but with no screen.
12:52Heidi Grant:And then it becomes, okay, it's, you could choose two days a week when you could do that. Like it can't become the default. So you end up kind of some accommodations. Yes, you can come, I'll feed you dinner beforehand, and you can just eat bread at dinner. That might be an accommodation that makes sense for grandpa's 80th birthday dinner that you want the kid to be able to be at without it being all about what kid X eats or doesn't eat. So yes, it's like you have to make some accommodations, but you don't want to over accommodate something to the point where someone is ruling the day through their dysregulation or their unreasonability, if that is a word, which it probably is not.
13:33Perfect, perfect example. I have another one for you, ways this can run the household. Projecting the people in the household who are trying to accommodate and walk on eggshells around the sort of hair trigger person, whoever it is, parent, kid, whatever, can start to blame one another for setting off the reactions instead of blaming the issue, which is the opposition defiant disorder or whatever. Like, you know, he's like this. Why do you chew in front of him when you know he doesn't like when you chew? But you know, he doesn't. Why did you say that? Why did you do that? You start to blame the other person for handling the very difficult person to handle imperfectly, which when it's impossible to handle them perfectly and you start to take it out on each other.
14:17Right.
14:17Heidi Grant:also sometimes the other people do also get a kick of setting off the other person like it's all true like sometimes I do find myself saying listen you know that one of us is a terrible morning person so when you choose that time to go after them over a small thing that's a poor choice you know but yes it's not why should you accommodate this person's inability to function in the morning, but please do because I can't take it anymore. I mean, I have definitely been mad at my kids for making the super cranky one for setting off whoever the super cranky one was. Let's just use the example of like the one who was on, you know, steroids for strep throat and had a like completely behavioral reaction to that for a couple of weeks, you end up being mad at the person who quote unquote, set them off as if that was an avoidable situation, instead of the unreasonable anger.
15:15Right. All right. Well, I have even more ways that this can all stretch around the household. But wait, there's more.
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18:44Heidi Grant:This is huge. I did the virtual try-on and I can confirm that my sunglasses look just as good on me in real life as they did virtually, Amy. Face it, that scratched up pear has done its job. Upgrade today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order, plus free shipping on all U.S. orders over$65. These styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast promo code podcast15. So there's also the disruption of daily life that can occur. Like we're always running late because this one kid has a crying jag in the morning, right?
19:28My birthday dinner was ruined because she cried because she didn't get to blow out the candles. And then I ended up being yelled at the birthday kid because I didn't let her do it too. You know, whatever. There's just this constant disruption and low-grade stress that can start to become default.
19:44Heidi Grant:And that projection can happen between you and your spouse as well, right? Like, why are you always setting him off? Yes. Why are you always doing that when you know it makes her explode? I will confess to this, you know, definite frailty in myself, which is like, I kind of enjoy the trophy of having won the moment, like a kid who's difficult, right? And they scream at the other parent, like, why are you always like this? And then you're the one like, oh, I know, I know, I know. No, no, you know, she didn't mean to say that. I know, I know she can, you're okay. It's okay. Right. And then you, then you float around the house for the rest of the night.
20:24Like I win. I know how to handle the difficulty. I got the gold star. Yeah. I have the gold star for tonight. You don't because you don't do a good job. And then of course, like the next day it's completely, the tables are turned.
Read the full transcript
20:36Heidi Grant:Also relevant to other caretakers, deployed parents, parents who travel a lot for work. you don't understand how we accommodate this person. Like, you don't know the rules of how to interact with this person, which is those defaults get locked in. And, you know, to a certain degree, my sister just traveled with one of my kids for quite a long time. And I found myself, he does this, and he likes this. And, you know, if he says this, say this. And, you know, everybody does that with all their kids all the time. And spoiler alert, they got along great. And in fact, so great that I'm a little bit annoyed because I feel like my son is now like, why can't you be more like her?
21:17I'm like, go away.
21:18Heidi Grant:But I think as you get into like patterns of letting emotions roll, you can get very clearly, especially with a spouse or a caregiver who is not around all the time into like, you have to know the special keys to this person. Yes. Or on the other hand, you know, the person who isn't the default parent, like walks in once in a while, like, why don't you just relax? Like, it's not that big a deal. Not knowing that you've been fighting about over three hours or whatever. Like they walk in at the last second. Like, why don't you just do it this way? Like, oh, that would be nice. That would be nice.
21:51Right. Must be nice. Yeah. There's the judgment of others that can become part of it. And I think other kids can, the other kids in the family can start to pick up on this too. And that sort of leads us into our next topic, which is the other siblings. But, you know, your extended family, your neighbors, your friends, things can start to feel a certain way because you have one sort of, you know, pipe bomb at the party that might go off at any moment.
22:18Heidi Grant:or just child who is struggling in specific ways. And you get kind of a lot of either looks or statements of, I would never let my kid behave like that towards me. I would never let my kid behave that way at a birthday party. I was talking to a friend the other day who's dealing with a situation around this issue. And she was like, come over anytime and you try. Let me see. I'd love, I'm willing to learn from you if you want to come over and show me how much better you could do it than me, but I don't think you've dealt with this kid in this situation. And I think it can be, this can be so challenging that like, I say it all the time, nothing easier than parenting someone else's kid in your mind.
23:02Heidi Grant:Yeah. In your mind. Right. Like, oh, I would never put up with that. It's like, really? Okay, come spend six months at my house and see how you do in this situation. Because this situation might be outside of your understanding. If I only had one of my three children, any one of my three children, I would look at other people and think, why can't you do this? This is easy. This is how kids are. This is how kids are. I have three kids. I parent them all the same way. And they each have behaviors that I'm sure people look at and think, not in my house. I wouldn't let my kids behave that way. And I've had people literally say that to me, like, oh, that would never have flown in my house.
23:43Heidi Grant:And I think, okay, well, it flies in our house for very specific reasons that I don't know that you fully interact with. And so, but nothing cuts you quite like that, you know, people say it fairly offhandedly. And I think sometimes in-laws or well-meaning parents like, well, you know, you shouldn't really let him get away with that. And I think, okay. It kind of segues for me, like the number one person who might be thinking you really shouldn't let him get away with that is your other children, right? That this profoundly affects the siblings. So let's stick to the example of it's a kid's emotions, that dysregulation that are really running the house.
24:23It can really profoundly affect the kids. And so I have some interesting quotes here from Jane Indergaard. She's a nurse practitioner, and she wrote an article I'll link in the show notes about the hidden needs of siblings of kids with ADHD. And I think there's many kinds of ADHD. She's talking about ADHD that causes profound emotional disruption in a household. So she says that the siblings of these kids, when they were actually studied, which they rarely are, they felt like their own comfort and satisfaction and well-being and happiness was secondary to the needs and attention of their sibling.
25:01Right. The high needs sibling. The high needs sibling gets everything and I get nothing. They feel isolated. They feel rejected. They feel underappreciated. They see the unfairness, which, you know, that different rules, right? Different rules, different expectations, different expectations. Why do you let him do that? You'd never let me do that. You never would have let me do that. If I did that, you'd be this way. And all of that's true. Their own needs can become eclipsed. You have to accommodate like you're, I know you like pepperoni pizza, but you know how she'll be if we have pepperoni in the pizza.
25:38So you can't have pepperoni pizza. I mean, a tiny example, but it's like even on your half, it's gonna not work. It's all it is. And then she makes the point generously that it can conflict leads to conflict, right? And the dysregulated person knows how to push your buttons. And eventually, like, you're gonna yell back or the kid's gonna punch him in the arm or whatever, Like it brings up the worst in everybody to be living with this. And so then they act up too.
26:04Heidi Grant:I think also, and maybe even more profoundly with siblings, kids feel safest and most supported, I believe, in a structure that they understand. That structure looks a certain way. We all live within this certain space under this set of guidelines, right? And so it is very unsettling, unstabling, and frightening for kids when one person in the household is acting outside of the rules and it's not getting fixed and contained because it makes them feel like the whole structure doesn't exist. Does that make sense? It sure does. That like the idea that, well, this is a house where like we treat each other with a certain kind of respect.
26:49Heidi Grant:I mean, everybody has, right? Like in our house, we value love, guidance. We say what's on our mind. You know, I'm talking about the Pinterest sign thing, the chalkboard sign. In our house, kid number two's cranky mood runs everything. You don't see that sign. But also like I understand that mom and dad are in charge is a very safe feeling for a kid. So that when there's a kid in the house who's like, hey, mom and dad, F you and I don't want to see your ugly face and I'm going to throw something at you and leave the house and be gone for a half an hour. No one knows where you are. That's a very frightening feeling for the other kids because it's like, wait a minute, if mom and dad can't control this, it's really out of control.
27:40Heidi Grant:And I think that the feeling of out of controlness, and I think that this can happen with kids who have unexpected behaviors for a lot of reasons, right? Like, kids who have unexpected behaviors because of a disability, perhaps, or that like, kids like expected behaviors, or they like the jack-in-the-box in a very controlled environment, which is like, it's going to pop, and then it's going to go back in the box. But they don't want the jack-in-the-box to pop out and jump out of the box and go running around hitting people. Like, that's too scary, you know? And so I think that what feels so scary about somebody in the house who is emotionally very dysregulated and out of control is that it says to the kids, this is out of control and mom and dad are out of control with it.
28:33Heidi Grant:And they're frightened by that idea very profoundly. Right, right. When they see you not being able to letting the kid do something and not responding or yeah, it feels like the wheels are off. I get that. That makes a lot of sense. And similarly with fighting amidst the parents, anything that feels like this is out of control, it becomes like, and kids always like, right, they define themselves as the center of something so that a lot of siblings will take on, this is mine. I have to control this. I have to make sure that my sibling doesn't lose control because it's too frightening to see my mom out of control.
29:11Heidi Grant:And so... Or I'll get yelled at instead, right? If she blows up, then they'll be mad at me, even if I didn't do anything. Right. So I have to start to behave differently too. Right. They want to feel like when the big bad wolf blows on the house, that it's brick. And that when somebody's really out of control, they blow on the house and it's straw and it falls down. And it's like, wait, we can't allow that. So either I have to like bricking up the house or I have to stop the big bad wolf from blowing. Yeah, I like this metaphor. It's a lot. It's a lot for a kid. It's a lot for a little kid. It's a lot for a teenager too.
29:45It's a lot for a parent too. So Jane Indergaard talked about the goals that you need to set for yourself, which are obvious, but like goals are different from the steps we're going to take to get there. But starting with where you've just gotten us that you need to make your home feel like a sanctuary, which can feel very far away, right? If your house feels like it's made of straw, but like, Like that's obviously kids need to feel that their home is a sanctuary, including the kid who's blowing up all the time about everything because they're dysregulated. They do need to feel safe at home and you need to make your home feel safe.
30:12You need to increase. These are her ideas. You need to increase the validation of each person's experience in the house. We could talk about how you're going to do that. Increase adaptability of everybody in the house, but probably especially the person who's not very adaptable. And you need to increase the cohesion of the family unit. Like, OK, yeah, agreed. Sounds nice. That seems pretty far.
30:30Heidi Grant:I mean, I love you, Jane, but yeah, sounds like a good idea. But this is the whole problem. Like one of the people at the table is the wolf. So how are we increasing cohesion between him and the piglet? Sometimes that feels really challenging. Like, right. I mean, these are great ideas, but they're goals, right? I mean, she and she says that like, these are goals. Of course, they're the goals. Of course, they seem very hard. And this is her work. Like she works with people who are like, yeah, that's not going to work for us. And she's like, first set the goals. And then like the tiny ways you're going to get there.
31:02Yeah. And so these are a whole bunch of different ideas that are from a study and psychologist named Jeffrey Bernstein and her and then some of our ideas. But we do have ideas of ways that we can start to get closer.
31:13Heidi Grant:I have a big one. So let's take a break. And we're going to head for solutions because I actually believe there are solutions to this. There are solutions. There are. I am so over underwire bras. But until now, I could never find a wireless bra that gave me the right support without the whole like sports bra uniboob effect going on. And then I found Honey Love. Amy, same. The Honey Love X Balance Bra isn't anything like your average wireless bra. You know how seriously, friends, I take being cozy. The X Balance Bra, I'm here to tell you, it's like a soft hug. And then the signature X design at the center gives you real lift and no more uni boob separation.
31:57I love it. It is no, I wear Honey Love every single day from structured dresses to thin T-shirts. The X Balance bra is so comfortable to wear. It looks good and everything. It is my go-to bra.
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33:54Heidi Grant:And now, what you are doing wrong. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. According to your two to four-year-old. You couldn't make it sunny when it was raining at the park. Seriously, what is wrong with you? According to your five to seven-year-old, you said no to more ice cream because apparently everybody had already had ice cream today. You are a monster. According to your eight to nine-year-old, you sang along with the radio in the car as your car approached the front of the school drop-off line. Oh my God, that is humiliating. according to your 10 to 11 year old. Yes, you tried to help with their math homework, but that's not the way the teacher showed them to do it.
34:46No offense, but what is wrong with you? According to your 12 to 15 year old. I mean, just the simple fact of your existence is simultaneously shameful, irritating, and appalling. I mean, this can't be fixed, but if you could try to stop being so, you know, you. according to your 16 to 18 year olds. Are you serious right now? I mean, your latest statement, much like all of your previous statements, is simultaneously ill-informed, outdated, and deeply offensive. Check yourself, mom. This has been What You Are Doing Wrong from the What Fresh Hell podcast.
35:30Heidi Grant:Okay, I'm going to lead with my suggestion. Good, good. I think the most important adaptation to this situation is honesty, radical honesty about what's going on. I think that this situation is so hurt because we get embarrassed about what's going on. We feel like we're failing as a parent. And so we pretend it's not happening. Everybody knows it's happening. and I think the ability to say so and so is having a really hard time it's because of this medication it's because they have this diagnosis and this can be done in front of the out of control person this is what's going on we all see it it's bothering all of us I think the more the person who is the cause can be part of this conversation in love so that you don't have the conversation of, okay, guys, before he comes down, we have to know that before she meets us at the diner, remember, that's not healthy.
36:41Heidi Grant:You're splitting the family more than it's already split. The ability to be extremely honest about what everyone's feeling and air it It makes it so much less scary, I think. But I think the validation sometimes does have to happen out of the earshot of the kid. Like if your other sibling wants to tell you how unfair it is, how they can't take it anymore, how it's so hard. I think if you can have a family-wide conversation about it, great. But I think sometimes that there are conversations, there's venting that needs to be had that wouldn't necessarily be productive to have the whole family listen to.
37:10But it's productive to have it.
37:11Heidi Grant:I guess that's right. I think that's probably true. I think it can feel, I think what happens is that it feels too scary to talk about. And then it just, because you want to be like, this isn't really happening. I am a great parent. Nothing goes wrong in my house. And so I don't want to say like, wow, last night felt really out of control for these reasons. And I think we all need to get on the same page. And, you know, I think to child, let's call it child A, the child who is emotionally dysregulated or for whatever reason having a hard time. I think for child A, like that was really hard for you, but it was also pretty scary for everybody else in the house.
37:54Heidi Grant:I think it upsets everybody. How can we all work together to make sure this doesn't happen again? What are our best practices? Is it better? And you can definitely, this is something, I mean, if it's something that's really affecting your family, there should probably be a therapist involved at some point with folks here about how we can do this the best. But I think acknowledging it can be the hardest thing. Like you want to the next day be like, nothing happened, everything's fine, but that it just doesn't work. There was this study that was done of households where a child had Tourette's syndrome in the house.
38:30and they showed that communication, that honest and healthy communication about Tourette's syndrome between the other siblings who didn't have Tourette's syndrome and their parents. They didn't talk about a family-wide discussion, probably it's some family-wide, some not family-wide, but they were specifically looking at the parents communicating with the other siblings. The better the communication about Tourette's syndrome between the parents and the kids who didn't have Tourette's syndrome, the better the family cohesion was, the better the Tourette's syndrome's severity was, which is interesting.
39:02Heidi Grant:Right. Because it's stress-induced to some degree, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. So they actually affected the Tourette's syndrome by talking honestly about it with the other kids in the family. Because otherwise, somebody's trying to hold it in, and that makes tics come out more. I don't know, but that's what I would assume. Makes sense. And the thing that they noticed a huge effect on was they call it healthy siblings. So I'm sorry, if you disagree with that terminology, that's what the study says. the healthy siblings, it changed their fairness evaluation of maternal differential treatment. And I think you can give voice to that too.
39:37Heidi Grant:Yeah. Listen, I am accommodating this person who wakes up like an angry, rabid tiger, because this child in our family struggles terribly in the morning. That is not your struggle. and so therefore I expect you to be easier in the morning. Do your thing in the morning. Doesn't mean you can't ever have a bad day, but I do make that accommodation for this person. And therefore I know that you don't like long rides in the car. I'm going to try to make different accommodations for you there. Like trying to give voice to it and that I think that giving voice to like, it's not fair. I mean, I feel like I have this conversation.
40:22Heidi Grant:My kids are now 12, 13, 15. I'm not that interested in fair as a concept, friends. Like, I don't know who promised you fair, but that's not what we don't have fair to offer here at the shop. Like, we all get different things. We have different strengths. We have different days. Your birthday party got rained on and his with Sonny. Like, fair is not my goal here. Well, they would say, I thought this was interesting, that what you need to teach families, kids in this situation, is that fairness and equality are not the same thing. That giving everybody the same thing is actually not fair. Fair is giving each person in the family what they need.
41:04That's right.
41:05Heidi Grant:That's right. And I don't think I've said it in quite that way, which is good language. But that's right. Yeah. Fair is giving them what they need. Right. And so fairness, if you have a sibling who constantly pushes your buttons and then you fight and then you're the one in trouble and like maybe you need to, you know, go on a vacation with your aunt and uncle and your cousin, just you. Like that might be what's fair because that's really what you need this summer is some time on your own to help the kids sort of feel like they are seen and their needs, which are real and which exist, can also be met, but they don't have to be met in the same way.
41:40Heidi Grant:I think that's right. And I think it can be a little bit of a high wire act. But I also think this is a place where the more open you're about it, the more you can have acknowledging and funny conversations that can kind of help everybody in this situation. Like, oh, the tiger's up. I can hear that kid upstairs banging around like everybody. Remember, we're on tiger patrol this morning. It can be hard. You don't ever want this to tip into like teasing the person who's having a hard time. But if you can give it a context that makes it able to make sense or, hmm, that one who always loses their shoe, guess what time it is?
42:20Heidi Grant:It's all family shoe hunt again because, and who's going to make us late this morning? Let me guess. I'll give you 20 guesses and it's always this. You've got to really watch it tipping into like bullying or picking on somebody. But I do think that the more light you shine on it, it feels really counterproductive. It feels like we have to hide from it because it does feel scary. The more we can be like, okay, we're going to the out of control circus again tonight. Everyone take your battle stations, that it takes some of the air out of everybody's sails. I mean, I've definitely seen it work and I've seen it go wrong.
42:57Heidi Grant:I've seen it kind of tip the out of control kid into like, it's not funny. No one takes me seriously, like it can go wrong. But there are times where I see it be like, you can't even keep this up in the face of us all being like, man, the battle stations, we've got the angry tiger on the loose. Like sometimes the out of control person is like, okay, I'm not going to keep being this in the face of this, it can depend. And then if it's older kids, you can actually educate them on rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, right, or oppositional defiant disorder, or whatever, and you can go for a walk with them, you can send them articles, just the things that make like, I see you, I hear you, and let them be like, I can't take it anymore.
43:42Sometimes I just didn't like, I understand, I understand how hard it must be. I get it. Right?
43:47Heidi Grant:Yeah, I get it. Of course, you can't, because it's really hard. I think that it's another room for us to say, like, we're all on the same team. We're same team. But this doesn't have to become your problem either. You know, I mean, you definitely can sometimes see kids who are like, when stuff starts to go wrong, they're like, I'll solve it. Watch my funny dance. And I'm like, okay, you don't have to solve it. It's not that. I think when you make it less scary for everybody, you take away the out of control person's need to ratchet up the out of controlness. And you take away the, I have to be the solution and fix it.
44:32Heidi Grant:People's need to fix it so much too. Where we say, listen, this stinks. It usually lasts about this long. This is the reasons why it happens. And here's a plan going forward. And I think this is a great thing to talk about when it's not happening. When it's happening, it's good to have some sort of plan. Like, hey, when this starts to feel out of control, why does an out of control person stay in their room until they can feel calmer? Everyone else can go do video games in the basement. Like, let's make a plan for when this starts to happen. Or even, you know, if things get really rough and your kid who's having a hard time can't stay in their room because they want to be right next to you because they don't totally feel safe, then maybe the other parent punches out with the other two kids and you go for a walk.
45:21And it's because it's what they need. And maybe they got ice cream while they're out because that's what they needed. And you can divide and conquer. And then, of course, make sure that you, primary caregiver, are not always the one who is stuck at home with a difficult one. Because the most important thing of all, ready for this? Research indicates there's one single most significant factor for family well-being in relationships in a house where a child has severe difficulties, and it is the emotional health of the primary caregiver. That's the most important factor in a cohesive family environment is your emotional health.
45:57Heidi Grant:That's a good thing to remember because I think often we feel like, especially as moms, our job is to sacrifice ourselves for the situation. And it's good to remember that taking care of yourself in the situation actually makes the situation better. Again, you don't do it because someone told you to do it. You do it because it actually works. It makes the situation better. Not just for you. And so that in the calmer times, you can say, what is the best thing for my, and I think that sometimes the out of control person is testing that. Like when will mom break? When will the house of brick fall down?
46:39Heidi Grant:How hard do I have to blow? And that if you can remember that your job is to just be well enough to be the brick wall for when the blowing comes, that that is your job. It can be hard. You don't actually want to chase stuff. You want to just work on yourself and figure out how to be that strength. very interesting episode, Amy. I learned a lot from it and I feel we solved it. I did too. I'm going to take away this idea of fairness evaluation and fair is not equal. Fair is what each person needs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be good for me too. Cause I often just scream, who said life was fair? Maniacs.
47:20Heidi Grant:And that doesn't seem to be going great. So I think it would be nice to try something different. If you love What Fresh Hell and you want to get more What Fresh Shell, if you want to get bonus episodes, you want to get access to our entire catalog of over 700 episodes, all ad free, you might want to consider What Fresh Hell Plus. There's going to be a link in the show notes for this episode. You can also go to our website, whatfreshhellpodcast.com and sign up for What Fresh Hell Plus. It's$5 a month and$40 a year to get everything ad free. And we'd love it if you consider signing up. We would love it.
47:56Heidi Grant:And the bonus episodes are super fun and kind of dopey, but in a hilarious way. Oh, and I want to say one more thing, which is you can also keep listening wherever you listen. Like you don't have to like now download some special like third party thing or listen some you can just keep listening where you're listening. You're already doing it. But just with less ads and more us. What could be better than that, Amy? And with that, friends, thank you for listening. And we will talk to you next time. So long.
48:31This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. Reese, our content agent, wrote the copy based on our best practices, like mentioning Monday.com three times. That was the second. Johnny, our coordination agent, built the timeline and kept everyone aligned. Olivia, our human creative director, stayed in the loop. Because agents are great, but they don't always know when a joke lands. She had one note. Tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So, minutes. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com.
From the publisher
This Deep Dive series is all about reducing the friction between ourselves and our kids when trying to communicate with them, whether it's yelling less, finding real reasons for constant defiance, or picking our battles.
What do we do when one of our kid's moods is affecting everyone else in the house? Whether it's anxiety, frustration, rigidity, or plain old temper tantrums, understanding where it's coming from is the first step. But even when we don't allow emotions to be an excuse poor behavior, that misbehavior can happen anyhow—and walking on eggshells is no way to teach the dysregulated person better emotional skills.
In this episode, we discuss:
the sometimes hidden needs of the other kids in the house
why "fair" is not the same thing as "equal"
the single most important factor for positive family well-being
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Our episode "When One of Our Kids Is Taking All Our Bandwidth"
Nicole Schwarz for imperfectfamilies.com: When The Siblings of a Difficult Child Feel Ignored
Leigh Anderson for Lifehacker: What to Do If Your Child's Behavior Is Ruining Your Relationship With Your Partner
Pamela Li for Parenting for Bain: Emotional Regulation in Children | A Complete Guide
Jane Indergaard for ADHD Newsstand: It's Never About Me: The Hidden Needs of Siblings
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
