DEEP DIVE: When Our Kids Are Bad at Making Friends

21:37You read their body language and facial expressions. This is something that some kids do need explicit coaching and understanding around. We're getting to that. There's ways you can really coach kids through this stuff. To read somebody else that you're with, you match your behavior to what others are doing. In other words, being quiet while a teacher is talking. I thought, wow, I never really, I think I just did that as a kid. You don't talk while the teacher's talking because nobody else is. I'm going to do what everybody else is doing. Some kids need to have that explained to them. That's it.

22:05And you talk to different people differently.

22:07Amy Wilson:That's a thing that kids often on the spectrum struggle with, that you talk to a priest different than you talk to your brother. You talk to the librarian differently than you talk to your mom. That that can be very tricky for kids developing. And all of these skills, by the way, are developing skills. A two-year-old is not good at it at all. An eighth grader might be getting the hang of it. And then hopefully a young adult is quite good at it. The fourth social rule that some kids need to have explained to them is important is to think about others before acting. Into this category is don't cut in line, wait your turn, and don't touch people without permission.

22:51Amy Wilson:I had a kid who had trouble with that. Yep. Don't talk too close to other people's faces. Don't talk too loudly in other people's faces. We're working right now on when you show me something on your phone, the phone needs to be at least eight inches away from my face. You do not run up and put a cell phone against my nose and start screaming, look at this. That's not something we do as humans. Again, different people need different spaces from their faces for the phone. That's funny. Yes. Mine is preferably like nine feet and I'm not interested in the video. but if I'm going to be, don't stick it right in my face.

23:27I'd love it if you put your phone down on the table and invite me to pick it up and put it at a distance from my face that's comfortable for me.

23:34Amy Wilson:We're miles from that, Amy. We're miles from that. The last social rule is cooperation with others, that you follow directions, that you're flexible and open to new ideas. We call this yes and in the comedy business, asking for help when you need it, just working with other people, that there's rules around these things. These are unwritten social rules. And for all the reasons we talked about in the first part, that your kid might be struggling for a lot of developmental reasons or whatever. These are the ways that it can play out, that they are probably breaking at least one of these unwritten social rules, which doesn't make them a bad kid.

24:10It just can get in the way of making and keeping friends. Agree.

24:14Amy Wilson:A couple of things I want to reflect having heard these rules. Yes, please. Number one, a lot of this stuff is cultural. Some of this stuff is like exclusionary class issues. Like we speak quietly at the country club. And the way we know you belong at the country club is that you speak in this very quiet country club. So there are some negatives to these things as well. And there are some gatekeeping things that are involved here. There are a certain type of people who belong here. And it's because they really understand our very rigid social rules. That's a thing. For kids, maybe not so much, but I'm just not saying, I'm just trying to reflect that these rules are not 100 % absolutes.

24:58Amy Wilson:Number two is that people who have kids on the spectrum are currently feeling very personally attacked by this list because it's all things that kids on the spectrum particularly tend to struggle with. Turn taking, paying attention to others, talking about things that other people are interested in. talking period for some kids is challenging. Cooperation, all of these things can be really challenging for kids on the spectrum or who are super quirky or have special needs in other ways. And so I think that the reason I push back a little bit is, you know, I usually come out on the side of like, you have to take your kids to the world, but it's also okay to look at the world and be like, maybe the most important thing about a person is not that they can adapt their behavior to the center of the bell curve.

25:53Yeah. But I mean, I think most societies, people want to listen to them while they're talking to you. I mean, there's like, be quiet while the teacher's talking. Maybe that's societal. I'm thinking of, I've been to China. People don't line up in China. They just all push. It's an interesting, I guess, sort of you know, communism, like nobody's any different from anybody else. There's no hierarchical social order. So everybody's the same. And I was getting when the subway comes, just go for it. Just push, just go right. And you don't let the old lady go for everybody's the same. And that's Yeah, so then that way it is cultural and societal.

26:25And that's an example of like, not cutting in line. Yeah, you could have a kid who's like, new in the United States, who doesn't know the kids line up in the United States.

26:32Amy Wilson:Yeah. And so I think it's always worth looking at these and saying, like, where can I push back and where do I want my kid to really work on this skill? Because it might not be if your kid is obsessed with Pluto facts, facts about Pluto, very upset about Pluto being deplanetized. Let's say I'm just pulling this example from I don't know where. The passion that that is, you don't totally want to squash and be like, don't ever talk about Pluto. Only talk about Pokemon because that's what the kids are talking about and you want to be that kind of kid. Right. So like you, there's some balance to be found, I would say, with these skills.

27:13If you know that these are social rules, that like societal expectations that your kid might be struggling meeting, and it doesn't mean that the rules are great, or your kid is bad, it does mean that it might be one cause of friction at school, which you probably need to start with talking if you have a good relationship with the kid's teacher or the kid's scoutmaster or the kid's ballet teacher. If you're hearing that there's problems with the kids at school, go to the teacher if you have that relationship at a time of their choosing, get the fuller picture, which might include, you know, Henry is touching everybody constantly, and I am seeing a lot of conflict.

27:51It might be that your kid can't keep his hands to himself. It might be your kid just sits in the corner and kids ask her to play and she doesn't even answer them. It might be happening. And then in the case of like, Pluto's not a planet anymore, you can get the fuller picture from the teacher of like I don't know why these two haven't connected yet but Spencer like talks about planets all the time but he's over here and Henry's over here and maybe we could like figure out a play date for them teachers can be great resources for that when your kids are younger you can't like force a play date between two 11th graders but you can get an idea of like where should my kid be investing their time is it maybe not playing soccer at recess with the kids who are good at soccer and are saying don't play with us like maybe this can't be fixed, but there might be somewhere else your kid could invest their attention.

28:35Amy Wilson:And one thing that you said there as like a precursor, but I think it's really important to dial in on, a variety of activities can help a lot of kids. So like a kid who doesn't fit in with like a very sporty school, I have a kid who's now against my wishes playing sports, but I definitely see some of these schools and I'm like, wow, I would hate to have a kid who goes to this school who wasn't super sporty. Like you can see that the whole school is just oriented around the sports team. And I mean, I think a lot of schools are like that in terms of like the popular kids or whatever, but your kid may have trouble fitting in if they're in a class of all super hardcore sporty kids, if sports are not their thing, but they might do really well in a robotics club that meets in town.

29:27Amy Wilson:They might do really well in Scouts. I'm a Scout mom, but I have found that Scouts is a little bit, and maybe it depends where you are, but it's a little the Island of the Misfit Toys. You know, it tends to be, and I think that kids do best when they have somewhere that they thrive. I think that place can be home, but for them to sort of start figuring it out on their own. And I definitely have had teachers reflect to me like, hey, could we take this really strong interest in this topic? There's a club that meets, there's a car club that meets. And some of these activities are like a bunch. I have a kid who's super interested in corgis, of all things.

30:12Amy Wilson:We've never owned a dog, don't have a corgi. They love corgis. And there's like a corgi meetup once a month in New York City. And it's not even for kids, it's adults, but like, for over-invested corgi owners. Right, right. Let's go down and play with the corgis for an hour, you know, and they don't mind. They're super thrilled to have anybody who likes corgis around. And I think that helping to create a variety of spaces and places where your kid might thrive is extremely important because I know for myself, I never thrived at school. And so it was important for me to have afterschool theater and places where I could be a little bit weirder and be accepted versus just spending all day every day like I'm the loser.

30:57Amy Wilson:I'm the one with nothing to offer because I'm terrible at sports. And it can be new clubs. It can also just be a new playground that you don't usually go to, a new library story hour at a different town that you don't usually go to. And if you want to bring the wind closer, I used to do this with one of my kids who was, you know, a little slow to warm up. Let's put it that way. I wouldn't say socially anxious. I would say slow to join, slow to warm up. If we were going to the playground with the sandbox, I would bring like a couple of trucks in the stroller, not just one for this child to play with, but several, several options.

31:31And I would put them in the sandbox with my kid so that there was not going to be an issue of sharing. There are three or four trucks. Well, like, you know, it's bees to a flower. Soon enough, there were other kids who want to play with the trucks. And then I let my kid practice sort of like, sure, you can have this if you want. And then all of a sudden, they're playing trucks together. That's possible when they're four. It's not possible when they're 14. But you can find them a club outside of school that might really match their interests. And it's different kids.

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34:30Amy Wilson:And now, when moms are bad at making friends. From the What Fresh Hell podcast, the introvert. Oh my God, school pickup. Please, please, please don't let anyone talk to me. Where is my kid? Oh no, I think that mom who invited me to book club once is coming this way. Oh, hi honey, I'll just be in the car. Come meet me over there. The Awkward Mom. Oh, hello fellow playground mom. Look, you've a small human person, just as I also do. Do you think that's enough information to build a lasting platonic bond with me? Okay, then I'll take your frightened scurrying away from me as I know. The Too Busy Mom.

35:12Oh my god, yes, we need to hang out. Looking at my spreadsheet calendar, I think I might be free for a quick cocktail, like, next August, around 4 p.m. The just-can't-make-normal conversation mom. Don't talk about serial killer documentaries. Do not talk about serial killer documentaries.

35:33Amy Wilson:Three minutes later. And then, it turned out he had a whole pile of bodies in his barn. Where are you guys going? The nine hours of sleep nader. I would love to come to bunco night, but it starts at eight. And that's 30 minutes after my bedtime, so it's a hard no from me. The oversharer. Oh, hi. You're Natalie's mom, right? How are you? Hi, I'm not great, actually. My son has this horrible stomach thing, and he was throwing up all night in the bed. Barf. In the sheets. I'm talking everywhere. And my husband's boss is a piece of work, but it's not like he can just start looking for another job right now.

36:08he is in a very tough field. And I'm really starting to worry about my mom's health. She has this weird rash and the doctors say it's fine. But you know, sometimes these things seem innocent. And the next thing you know, you're dealing with the flesh eating virus of the face.

36:23Amy Wilson:Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Natalie's mom. Oh, no, my daughter's name is Linda. I don't think we've met. This has been when moms are bad at making friends from the What Fresh Hell podcast.

36:41Amy Wilson:Okay, so I have a reflection on this. Okay. That's a little bit complicated, and I don't want to misstep as I'm talking about it. But I think sometimes when you have a kid who struggles socially, your instinct is to want to kind of thrust that kid upwards socially by attaching them to kids you see as socially viable in some way. And I think sometimes you have to check yourself on that. And you have to say, like, my kid who only wants to talk about carburetors, that is this kid's complete fixation, needs to connect with this other kid who has a fascination about something. And that kid is not going to move them up the social ladder, but they are going to have a connection.

37:38Amy Wilson:Does that make sense? Yeah. I think it can be a little bit hard when you feel like the key, and I think that we bring a lot of baggage to this, that the key to being happy in middle school is to be right in the middle of things and to fit in. In the fat part of the bell curve, as you say, right? You're right in the middle of the pack. In the fat part of the bell, like kind of invisible, but kind of floating along. And that not all kids belong in that space. And I think that you're not wrong, that to be one of the two kids who talks about carburetors all the time might continue making your child a bit of a target for the kind of bullies, you know, like now there's two weirdos, even a bigger target for us.

38:27Amy Wilson:and that I think that you have to approach it from the adult point of view in terms of like, what's the best next step for your kid? Not let me kind of try to catapult my kid into where I think eventually they might want to be. At all the best slumber parties. Yeah, you might not have a kid who's going to all the best slumber parties. I think it's also important to calibrate like what is the damage being done here and what is the learning available here and how do those two things balance so I have had the experience sometimes of having a kid who is outside social norms by choice by just how they are for different reasons happened to different one of my kids at different times.

39:17Amy Wilson:And I think, okay, well, part of learning to be human is bumping up against the people who say you're weird. Oh, I don't like you. I think so. And so we don't want to completely remove that from the equation at all. Right. That's not the assignment. Like I remember I had a kid who had some, you know, impulsive behaviors that were affecting some playground dynamics. And the teacher said that to me before when I said, this all changes around fifth or sixth grade, that was a wise teacher who said that to me. Like third grade, fourth grade, they don't care if you're like while the teacher's talking.

39:54But fifth grade, sixth grade, they start to be, stop, you're annoying, stop that. And that it wasn't, and her approach wasn't, and that must be avoided at all costs, but that that's a very effective behavior changer in a way that teacher, you know, good behavior stickers chart is not.

40:11Amy Wilson:the possible yes and possible the crowd just moves on without your kid like that's a scary reality and I think that calibrating like are we learning or are we being injured there's a line there that you have a role in keeping an eye on like is this useful feedback for my kid you don't want to get everything out of the way and never have them have a bad moment but you do also not want it to become a thing of like your kid is afraid to go to school. Your kid is actively being, you know, harmed and bullied all day at school because of their behaviors. And it can be hard to find that line. So let's talk about socially anxious kids.

40:52That's sort of like a different set of concerns. We talked about it a little bit before that, you know, you want to start with empathy and without judgment. It really is as hard for them as they as it seems to be. And there's a couple ways you can help with this for younger kids play date at your house first one kid at a time dr mary rooney came up with these suggestions that if you have a kid who's a very anxious host having somebody come over and that feels like a lot for them you they can pull out sort of three things that might work ahead of time i got out the chutes and ladders i got out the you know the stuffed animals and then i got out this you know craft they're all going to be and then when my guest comes in i'm going to say hi you're going to role play with them and then i'm going to say what would you like to do first and then let them pick and then and this is how it's going to go and you give them a script kids like this can speak from some experience on this they want to know what's going to happen next it's the uncertainty that's so frightening and so if you can give them a like it's this is going to happen and this is going to happen a lot of signposts for the interaction it might help them feel better and another trick I have for kids who are socially anxious and have a hard time at birthday parties and stuff is go early this is hard when you have a spouse who is always late who never it was never on time for anything but but it helps if you have a kid who has a hard time joining the group if they're the first person at soccer practice on Saturday mornings if they're the second or third person at the birthday party at the jumpy castle place it's like get there a little early and give them time to warm up in the place rather than be the last one there and it's almost time to open presents already and you know they don't know how to enter that.

42:24Amy Wilson:Two more things that I want to get to. Number one, social skills groups and classes. They offer these classes a lot of places. And even if you're somewhere where there isn't a class available to you in your town, you may be able to find one online, Zoom. And I have had good luck with social skills classes. Another skill builder is talking on the phone to older relatives. Often kids have more trouble with peers. Peers are much more unpredictable than adults. And so that can be a good way to practice social skills. And you can inform the adults on the phone or in person. Don't forget feedback. Hey, you know what?

43:04Amy Wilson:Can we take a break? I have something I want to talk about now. So you can help the kid work on it as an adult and model and just really make it a little bit of an exercise with kids. You know, get Nana and Papa involved and say like, hey, when you're on the phone, just make sure like model turn taking and force some turn taking because they want to tell you about this thing. And you can say, I mean, I'm talking about a kid probably under 13, like, oh, you've been talking for a long time. Let me tell you a little bit about what, you know, I want to talk about now. And that's a skill that like a peer is just going to walk away, but it gives them an opportunity.

43:43Amy Wilson:and I think also super important to model this for your kids who don't struggle with it. Have conversations at the dinner table that are like, who sits alone in the cafeteria? Is there anybody in your class who doesn't seem to have any friends? What's going on there? Oh, it's a kid who just moved here from another country and doesn't speak the language. Gosh, let's think about what that might feel like. Imagine if you suddenly got transported to Italy tomorrow and you had to go to class your first day. That would be really hard, right? I don't think you can force friendships with kids, but I do think there is a role.

44:19Amy Wilson:And I probably overcorrect on this because having had bad experiences with it myself, I'm like, oh my gosh, you have to be friends with a weird kid. And it doesn't actually work. And sometimes the behaviors are difficult and scary for kids. But I think that I just don't want to leave the conversation without saying like, we all have some role to play in this. I want to tell everybody that if you're interested in these sort of skills classes and some more structured support for your kid I'm going to put a link in the show notes Sue Larky she actually lives in Australia so you probably can't go visit her but she has a lot of resources she teaches kids who are on the autism spectrum and she had this great breakdown of social scripts which is like say you you know you your kid is a an issue and it's taking turns on the play deck you know It's not touching anybody when they line up for music class, whatever their thing is.

45:10You're such a New Yorker by saying play deck, but keep going. Play deck, yes. My children play on the roof here in New York City. You're right. Once you've understood in this episode, like, here's what they struggle with. Here's where it manifests with the peers. Then you can create a sort of poster. And she breaks down the six steps, the title of the social script, the coaching sentence, the secondary skill, the affirmation and conclusion. I'll put the link in the show notes. It seemed to me like a really good way. If you don't have access to a coach, to online classes, hopefully everybody can find online classes, but you see what I'm saying.

45:47It's a good way to wade into the water, a really good way to structure this with your kid and then to make it like, hey, let's talk about this. It must be hard when you've been sitting down for a long time to line up for music class and keep your hands to yourself and not be super wiggly. I get it. I'd be the same way. So let's talk about this. And then you talk through the steps together, you create this little poster together, and you print it out. And then they look at it, and they have literal explicit steps for certain kids for certain ages and stages. That's a great answer. They just want to be walked through it.

46:15Like we say, tell me like I'm eight years old, explaining to me like I'm eight years old, how I'm going to keep my hands to myself.

46:20Amy Wilson:The only thing I will add is everything is not an opportunity for learning. And I have dealt with this with kids who are struggling that sometimes they just need to be like, this was terrible. And I have made the mistake and I offer this to you because it has not gone well for me. Every conversation is like, well, what you should have done and you could have this and let's get out the scripts and practice. It's like, sometimes it's just hard. And like, you got to sit with them in the hardness. It's not always an opportunity to make it better and learn something new. That's so well said. I feel like we could have done four episodes on this I have a lot to say about it I know it's a good one There's so many good links If this resonated with you There's so many good resources From Child Mind From the ADHD dude From this woman Sue Larky that I just mentioned I'm going to put it all in the show notes So you can like look at this And engage with these ideas a little more fully Because there are lots of good ideas There are things you can do to help Speaking of engaging with things friends Are you a What Fresh Help Plus subscriber?

47:26Amy Wilson:I was just working on this month's episode in which Amy and I take the Myers-Briggs personality test and learn so many fun facts about each other. It's the funniest episode I think we've ever done. And at least to me, I laughed the most. And it's only available to Webfresh L Plus subscribers. Only you can only find out what kind of personalities we have. They are really funny, silly episodes where we just gab about pretty much complete nonsense. Definitely not parenting. We try to make it off the topic. Nothing parenting. You will learn almost nothing. But they are high humor, low information episodes that are extremely fun to listen to, if I do say so myself.

48:10Amy Wilson:You can go to our website, whatfreshhellpodcast.com, click on the What Fresh Hell Plus link, and find out all about how to become a subscriber on the platform you're already listening on. Yeah, just keep listening where you're already listening. It also gives you all the episodes in our entire archive ad-free. I mean, we love our sponsors. Our ads are also very funny and informative. But if you just like want that whole archive and all the bonus episodes, check out WhatFresh Health Plus. Like Margaret said, on our website, it's also in our Instagram, you know, link in bio. You can find it there and in the show notes for this episode.

48:45Thanks so much for listening. And we will talk to you next time. So long.

49:17Amy Wilson:We'll be right back.

49:23Amy Wilson:Visit lifelock.com slash podcast for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.