DEEP DIVE: Why Women Have Less Free Time

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17:12Margaret Ables:And you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash fresh. So you were saying before that the balance might have been most acutely the other way in your household with you doing more of it when your kids were little. This study goes by the age of the woman whose time is being studied, not by the age of her children. That being said, this will probably not surprise you that it's women 25 to 34. It's that age tranche that shows the most marked difference between women 25 to 34 and men 25 to 34.

17:58Margaret Ables:That's when the time pressure is most acute. And dads too. Dads are also spending the most time on child care and household labor during those years. It's just that it's 40 hours a week for dads and 60 hours a week for women. Right.

18:13Amy Wilson:I threw off these statistics by having my first baby at 37. But yes, it's the early years. I am out of this study. But yeah, it's the early years that I think, I mean, I sometimes look at people. We were somewhere yesterday. It was an adorable baby. And I was chatting with the mom, just one of those babies, like right off the Gerber carton, just so darn cute. And I remember we left and I was like, she has to be with that baby for the rest of the day. I really enjoy being with that baby for 20 minutes, but you know, the baby was getting fussy. She was kind of walking it out like, oh, she was interrupting.

18:49Amy Wilson:And I did think, wow, that's her whole day is that baby. You don't, I mean, I have a 16 year old who I can sometimes see in the morning and then see at night. He's getting on the train, going places. All my kids are kind of out and about. Yesterday we went out, it was the little parade in town and my daughter ran into friends and she was gone for the rest of the day. Finally, at nine o 'clock at night, I'm like, where is she? Oh, we should find out where she is and go pick her up. I mean, it's so different. Those little and forget a two year old who the second you take your eyes off of is injuring themselves or the house or drawing with Sharpie on the dog or whatever horrible thing they're doing.

19:27Amy Wilson:I mean, that time of parenting between like one and eight is just so between zero and eight.

19:34Margaret Ables:It's sort of like that secondary childcare we were talking about before. It kind of doesn't exist when your kids are little. That's pretty much it. Like they're here somewhere and right. Yeah. And I'm getting dinner ready and they're around. You know, maybe they're in the jumper chair, but you need to know where they are pretty much. You need to have eyes on.

19:50Amy Wilson:I think that these statistics were very true for me personally, until the kids were probably solid elementary school. And then it really did flip because then it became, okay, you take him to the track meet. Okay, you can fill out these camp forms. The work, I don't know, it was just much easier to split up as the kids got older.

20:10Margaret Ables:So the problem with this 25 to 34, as this study points out, is that those are also the prime career building years. Right. Those are the times when you're trying to get ahead of work, where you're putting in more hours so you can make partner. Those are the same years, which is why the burden is so great for everybody. But there's a cost to that when you're doing 50 % more of the outside of work stuff as your parenting partner who's not a woman.

20:34Amy Wilson:And I will say anecdotally that I know many women who hit 30 and started having families and at their careers, either their careers ended. Lots of people, because we live in New York City, were in media and fashion and magazines and careers that are not friendly to people with children and not friendly to people over 40 when you try to go back after having kids. They're kind of very young people industries. And I know people who, let's use the example of big law, you know, they were on the partner track at law firms. And then the idea was you could either go part time, which kind of took you off the track.

21:16Amy Wilson:And realistically, for people I know, it was like, well, now you're working 30 hours instead of 50 hours. And you're doing it for half the set, like the math didn't even make sense to go kind of part time was a huge blow to you and wasn't even such a tremendous benefit. You might end up working 35 hours instead of 50 and then to be getting no reward for it. I think the choices around work and women that we, again, on that surface level, like to kind of pat ourselves on the back of, well, we solved that. Now we treat everyone equally. It doesn't, it really doesn't work that way.

21:54Margaret Ables:It's not as simple. And then it all perpetuates each other. So the cost of child care, we've been talking about that a lot recently on the show. My eyes have really been open about that being a huge issue. Child care is very expensive. If the math doesn't math, and you can't really afford to have your kid in full time child care, because of reasons because of unequal distribution of household labor, and you had to do more this and you had to go part time at the law firm, you're the one who's going to stop working, because that's what makes sense. It's more likely in a given household that the woman is going to be making less than the man who's going to stop working to do the full time childcare.

22:32Margaret Ables:And I raise my kids full time, I'm not castigating that choice at all. I'm just saying when that choice is to be made, it's more likely to be the woman who makes the choice. And then that does have, of course, career long effects on your ability to earn when you take time off.

22:47Amy Wilson:And these are all the more subtle versions of post-gender that if women are more likely to be making less, that informs those decisions beyond the fact that there are still stigmas around dads who stay home while mom works and other things that this all feeds itself. And Jessica Clarke spoke about this on our Fresh Take that because we are a country that has a very underdeveloped social safety net, when things go wrong, someone has to take care of these people. There is no one to take care of your 80-year-old parent in dementia, but there's also no one to take care of your 45-year-old sister who broke her hip in a cycling accident.

23:34I mean,

23:35Amy Wilson:anyone who needs help, you either need to pay an extremely high amount of money. I mean, And every time I've been confronted with a healthcare need for a family member, I've thought to myself, we can't afford to hire someone to help. And it's too much work for us to do by ourselves. How are we doing this? It's so crazy. It's an unbelievably crazy choice in terms of I either have to quit. Even times I wasn't really working, I have to quit my life. If I have to leave my kids with my husband for a month and go be this person's full-time caretaker, because people do get into situations where they cannot take care of themselves.

24:17Margaret Ables:Yes. Yes. And when that time comes, I mean, I've learned this recently in my own life, you do need somebody to drop everything and be there and take over. They need a healthcare advocate. And in that case, I was the right person to do it. And I think that's often the case, that it's a female in the family who's like, you know what, I can do this. Which leads me to another point. You know, this Surgeon General's report on parenting that we did last month, we talked about that, how stressful parenting is. And that's just it, is that this work is not only like, nobody cares, I do too much around here, and you never even say thank you for lasagna.

24:49Margaret Ables:It's more than that, that this work is actually really stressful and can take a toll on your mental health. And women are doing 50 % more of it, right? It isn't just, I never get to sit down and watch my shows, right? I never get to use my intellectual capacity in anything other than coloring and playing Barbies. It's stressful.

25:09Amy Wilson:Yeah. And you may get to sit down and watch your shows and still be this stressed. Like they're not, it's not a one-to-one. I mean, this, I think we undercount the kind of ambient stress that goes on when you have, for example, a parent who is at an age where you start to feel like at any moment that person could use full-time help. Currently, they're fine. I'm at home watching Bravo. It's okay. But I kind of know based on my parents' age and risk factors and what's going on with them that that's kind of, I was talking to my therapist the other day. We were talking about the idea of burbling volcanoes.

25:52Amy Wilson:And the metaphor really worked for me that the stress is, even if I'm sitting and watching my Bravo shows, I am in a room where like, I've got a kid who may be applying to college soon. I've got a kid who may be struggling with X or Y issue. I've got a parent over 80. I've got a chronically ill close member of my family who may get a bad diagnosis soon. that those volcanoes are always in the room. So even when I'm sitting and watching Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and getting very invested in Mary Cosby and her drama, I'm still in a room full of burbling volcanoes, any of which could erupt at any time.

26:37Amy Wilson:And that's not relaxing. That is doing stress damage to me. And so it's not so much whether you are actively running from lava, just the feeling and the knowledge. And that's true just of having a child out in the world, right? Is that there's that stress of, okay, are they doing okay? Is everything going okay? On any given day, are they going to walk in the front door in tears because they lost all their friends? Or having done something stupid online and I've got to untangle that for them? Or, oh my God, I found drugs in their room. Whatever's going to happen on any given day, I have not found drugs in my children's room.

27:16Amy Wilson:I'm using an example. Who knew? Who knew, guys? But that ambient kind of anticipatory stress. And I know that I take that out much more than my husband. And you could say, well, then you just need to relax. Like, you just need to stop noticing those burbling volcanoes in the room with you. Yeah. And I think my husband doesn't. Like, I don't think he's sitting at work in the volcano field in the same way that I am. But I don't know. That is not changeable. That is a fixed. That is not a variable.

27:47Margaret Ables:But I think sometimes that, you know, I just go with the flow. I just don't worry about things is literally enabled by the person who is tending to the burbling volcanoes and is making sure nothing's erupting, is keeping an eye on things. Correct. That lets everybody else go have a good day. I do think so.

28:01Amy Wilson:Yeah, I'll give you another parallel for that when my babies were young, my husband would sometimes say, I'll keep an ear out for them tonight. And then he would fall fast asleep. And I was, of course, the only one who ever woke up. And I finally got to the point of if I'm going to take a night off, I'm going to sleep in the basement with earplugs in because you have to hear them then. And I don't. That thing of I think that Men kind of go through life sleeping in the basement with earplugs, whether that's a default, whether it's genetic, whether it's trained into us. I don't know the answers to that.

28:38Amy Wilson:But I do know that that that constant ticker and that constant scanning and the kind of you can picture like the Terminator, you know, computer through the eyes. That's like danger over here. That is what my brain looks like all the time. And that is a lot of work.

28:58Margaret Ables:Yeah, I just have, I have older kids now. If anybody listening doesn't know this, I have two kids in college and a kid in high school. My kid in high school was out late the other night. Fine. Was supposed to send me a text when they were on their way home, getting in an Uber, whatever. Didn't. And, you know, I'm looking at my watch. I'm checking in with the person. I go downstairs to wait for them. You know, I'm doing all this stuff. And the next morning, my spouse asked me how I slept. I'm like, well, I was a little bit like they didn't do what they were supposed to do. And they came home kind of late and I had to track them down.

29:30Margaret Ables:And, you know, they just went to sleep and woke up. That's what my spouse did. So it does kind of continue. And it's not because they're a bad person. It's because they never even considered worrying about it. Because why would they? Because I'm going to worry about it. I'll handle it. Not even worry about it. I'm going to handle it. Is that it?

29:43Amy Wilson:Like, what if somebody said, what would have happened if you just went to sleep? I guess you don't know where that person is. Like someone should be awake and worrying where your child is, right?

29:52Margaret Ables:Yeah, we went to bed together and both of us were like, okay, we'll keep an ear out. We'll have the dog with us and that's usually with my kid. And I have my phone on so that we'll hear from the kid. And then I'm the only one who thought about it before morning. Exactly. It just sort of happens that way. This was an interesting statistic I wanted to highlight. Single moms in this study, this is also true for them. Single moms do twice as much primary and secondary child care as single fathers. And I was like, wait, how is that possible that single moms are working on child care twice as much as single fathers?

30:26Margaret Ables:And I'm like, okay, are single fathers just getting the women in their lives to help? Maybe. Probably. Knowing them, right? Knowing them. I thought that was fascinating. Adults without children, if they're married, women are doing twice as much of the household work as men.

30:40Amy Wilson:Yeah.

30:40Margaret Ables:Getting married leads to more work, even if you don't have kids.

30:42Amy Wilson:We could do a whole episode on that. I mean, like getting married is much harder on women than it is on men. Fascinating. All right, we're going to be back and we're going to try to find some solutions to nationwide gender inequity. Good luck. Set yourself up for financial success this year. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier.

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33:41Amy Wilson:And now, your guide to fall for moms. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. It's August. Put those beach reeds and sunglasses away, lady. The kids are coming home from camp, and you need to unpack those sleepaway trunks and get to some school shopping. What do you mean your fourth grader doesn't have a protractor? School starts next week, and your kid can't be seen in last year's sweatpants. They need all new sweatpants for this year. Yes, they look the same as last year's sweatpants, but they're not, okay? Let's head to the mall before time runs out.

34:13Margaret Ables:Good. You've gotten the kids spread away in school, but you are way behind. Your oldest is going to need a tutor in math. Have you figured that out? And your youngest needs a rental trombone for band. You didn't forget that, did you? Because that would be bad. Also, fall sports will now be taking up 62 % of your time. Dig deep, Mom. This is what September is all about.

34:32Amy Wilson:Let's move, people. It's Halloween. You are at least a week late on putting up those spooky decorations. And if you don't get started carving those pumpkins this weekend, you might as well put an I Ruined Halloween sign up on your front lawn. And where are you on that all family minions costume you guys talked about in July? The Spirit Halloween store isn't coming to you, friend. You need to get your act together and make sure this is a Halloween to remember.

34:56Margaret Ables:Seriously, why are your Halloween decorations still up? It's turkey time. Let's go on those Thanksgiving travel plans and book a hotel room. Otherwise, you'll all end up having to sleep in cousin Melvin's garage like last year. Also, your mom really needs the kids' holiday gift list because, you know, she likes to get everything at the Black Friday sales. But if she doesn't know what the kids want, how is she supposed to do that? We don't want to use the word disappointed, but frankly, you need to get your act together.

35:19Amy Wilson:Is that an inflatable turkey on your lawn? How embarrassing. Thanksgiving has been over for two days. Okay, you got home from a six-hour drive yesterday. It's December now. You need to get your seasonal decor game moving here. What do you mean you forgot the holiday concert was Thursday? Your kid has the bassoon solo.

35:36Margaret Ables:And all the grandparents were counting on you to remind them that was coming up. And that gift list isn't getting any shorter, so you need to hustle if that's all going to get done. This is the time of year the core memories are being made for every single member of your family. And we need some Wednesday stat. Listen, you're the one that decided to make that 12-month calendar featuring pictures of every family member from each month last year for all the aunts and uncles. and they love it. So you are on the hook for that again this year and also for the rest of forever.

36:04Amy Wilson:And this weekend, don't forget, it's cookie baking. Yes, you do need to do all four kinds because that's the tradition. So you better hit the grocery store and don't forget lemons for zesting like you did last year, okay? And also the holiday bazaar is next Tuesday and you signed up last spring to run the cash registers. You can do it. Why? Because if you don't, you'll be letting people down.

36:24Margaret Ables:And for God's sake, mama, relax. Max, no one likes it when you get so stressed around the holidays. This is supposed to be fun. And you kind of bomb everyone out when you get all uptight at this time of year. Okay, find your jolly, would you?

36:36Amy Wilson:And also don't forget that the kids need all new outfits for holiday cards. Those are non-negotiables. And you have to figure out before January what you're getting for the January birthday. So let's keep our head in the game, shall we? This has been your guide to fall for moms.

36:52Margaret Ables:From the What Fresh Hell podcast. Anne Helen Peterson has a great sub stack. I will put the link in the show notes. She talked about this study as well and was looking at, so why do we put up with this? If you, the same study showed that a super majority, 77 % of the people studied in this study said they agree with the statement that work should be shared equally between men and women. So everybody's like, yes, it should be shared equally by men and women. And then it's not. So why is that? And she has thoughts about that. But part of the thought is that I think the well-meaning men are like, I do way more than my dad did, than my grandfather did.

37:30Margaret Ables:And they do. But so do you. You know, we're all doing more of everything. We're all working longer and parenting more hands-on. We're spending more time with child care and with work than we used to, per the Surgeon General study. So they're right. They're doing more. So are you. And you're doing more and more. So the inequity just perpetuates, I think.

37:50Amy Wilson:Yeah. And the expectations have gotten bigger, right? I mean, we've talked about that very anecdotally, but the expectations for parental involvement, the expectations that you're kind of super geared into the portal because your kid is going to a four-year college, the expectations of how much parents will be involved with their kids' sports has changed. The expectations around caring for our elders and also people living a lot longer and having much more complicated health situations. and it's not this is not to say like oh it's all in your head if you just relax things have really changed and people have gotten much more spread out like my mom grew up in a two-family household with her cousin's family lived upstairs they lived downstairs so there was always people around they almost lived it's like a commune kind of vibe you know if you all lived in a village and like okay you everybody's kind of looking out for mrs mcginley who might go wandering down the street in her underpants and like everyone will get her home.

38:52Amy Wilson:We don't live in community anymore. And so the pressures on every individual are so much higher.

38:59Margaret Ables:Even just like homework that I think, I mean, when I was in first grade, I had, you know, two plus two and a picture of Jesus to color in. And that was my homework, right? And you got an A. I know you did. And I got an A. I had beautiful handwriting. Penmanship was a class when I was in school and I like slayed at it because I was a motivated student, but also because the work wasn't that hard. Now I feel like second graders are really being pushed to challenge themselves and there's too much homework. And so who's doing the secondary childcare and sitting with them or next to them or doing the homework with them, whatever, it's parents.

39:35Margaret Ables:So there is more work to do. It isn't just making sure your video is matching Thanksgiving outfits. That's not, you're not making up the more work, which I think sometimes we get fed that like, well, if you just didn't overthink everything, it would be fine. And I don't think that that's fair or that's true. There's policy changes. I'll give you a couple of policy changes that I think have to happen. We have to have childcare be more available and less expensive. And other countries heavily subsidize it. And we don't. So you know, I don't run for office. I don't tell you about that. But that's there's something we can fix.

40:08Margaret Ables:And it's better, less expensive, more available childcare.

40:11Amy Wilson:Yeah, this seems like a no brainer. And yet it seems like it will never happen. It's one of those annoying things that it feels, I feel kind of hopeless about it. And similarly with elder care and care for people with, I mean, the good news is people are living much longer, but the problem is they need a lot more help. And it is such a non-negotiable. I mean, I didn't really confront this until my own kind of middle age that, But, oh, this picture out here with elderly parents who need tremendous amount of care. I'm not talking about my own situation, actually, but it is burying friends of mine.

40:50Amy Wilson:And the costs are astronomical. I know people who have two parents making really good livings and they are absolutely getting drawn down by the cost of taking care of people. And the kind of cost like nobody wants. I mean, it's always been kind of a joke, like, oh, my kids will put me in a home. It's like you can't give advanced medical care to people who need it. And yet people are living longer and we've done nothing to kind of help with the thing of what do you do? I mean, taking care of a baby is a lot of work, but taking care of an adult is a lot of work. or taking care of a child with severe disabilities, child with complex medical needs.

41:39Amy Wilson:I mean, the idea that you're just kind of thrown to the face with these things, I think is incredibly frightening. It is.

41:45Margaret Ables:And you are on your own. And we shouldn't stand for that. But of course, we need to take care of this for the people who are in the tumble dryer right now, right? Like somebody who's right now dealing with a kid with special needs and a parent with a healthcare diagnosis at the same time. She really doesn't have time to be writing her congressperson about this stuff. I mean, maybe none of us do, but we need to be thinking about this as something that really matters to us and not take on the idea that, well, maybe we are a little better at this. Maybe we do just, maybe it's just because we see mess more than men in our lives do.

42:19Margaret Ables:Maybe we're just better at multitasking. Maybe we're just more suited to do. None of that is true. I talk about all this and happy to help. All of this has been scientifically disproven. And if you heard studies that men's and women's brains are just different, I'm here to tell you there's other studies that disproved that. But we have sort of taken that in over time, like, well, maybe it's just they do what they can. They just don't understand how to do two things at once like we do. That's not really true. That is definitely the story. So part of unlearning this, I'm going to quote Anne Helen Peterson here.

42:51Margaret Ables:She says, you know, we're socialized to believe an unclean woman is a bad woman and an untidy house is reflective of an undisciplined mind. You can understand this thinking as BS and still be subject to it. So I don't think that fix for ourselves is like, well, stop having such high standards, everybody around you and stop being so, you know, unpleasant and perfectionist. It's just more understand that your house, the way your house looks and the way your kids look is thought to be a reflection of you is true. It's socialized into all of us. And it doesn't mean that you have to adhere to it.

43:24Amy Wilson:Yeah. And that we as a society have gone from living in community to living extremely individually and not put in any community supports. And therefore it's like, okay, ladies, you got this. You're going to take care of the elderly parent. You're going to prop up the failing school with bake sales and fundraisers.

43:52Margaret Ables:you're going to right right and free time right you're going to be in that school board and and have people yell at you you're going to do that yeah you're going to be super mom to your

44:02Amy Wilson:child with special needs they don't need services you're going to figure it out you're going to find lorenzo's oil and cure them whatever it is old deluxe alert back in my day but i mean this is super mom and super women can do it all and it's like well what if we don't want to what if this actually were to be more equitable. And we put that at the top of the list.

44:28Margaret Ables:People are always sort of like, so how do you start this conversation? Right. And I think like Eve Rodsky's book Fair Play, and she has a deck of cards, that's useful. But I think it's also something you said before, like going through this study, this isn't like, not all men, I do a lot of on here. Like you do. This is a study that shows that we all have blind spots, apparently, that are continuing to contribute to the women doing way, way, way more than their share. And this is something like we all have to work on. But it's data, you can't argue with it being a trend that cuts across age groups and every kind of socioeconomic with kids without kids.

45:04Margaret Ables:If 18 year olds are doing twice as much household work, girls as 18 year old boys, that 18 year old boy gets hundreds of hours, 500 hours a year, more to write internship letters? I don't know. They're probably looking at their phones that whole time, but that free time is yours to chase whatever you want instead of load the dishwasher. Yeah.

45:26Amy Wilson:And I think that it's worth understanding the data so that you can make changes where you can. Like, is this everybody's job when someone in the family gets sick? And how do we involve everybody in that care, not just the women, you know, in your own household, is the share equitable? Are you asking for the same kind of help from everybody? Are you praising the same kind of help from everybody? And it may be that your daughter is more likely to show up with a broom and be like, I cleaned the kitchen. And who knows where that's coming from, social, whatever, conditioning, but just leaning back against the data.

46:08Amy Wilson:And then there's the like changing minds and hearts and running for office and changing the society, which I think can feel very overwhelming on like a Wednesday morning when you're listening to this. You're like, I'm just basically trying to get to bedtime. But I do think that when you look at this kind of data for anything, when you look at it for racial issues, gender issues, any kind of societal picture, because you may be tempted to say like, well, my husband works hard, you know, but let's look at the big picture and say, is this a problem? And I don't think that you can deny that it is.

46:42Amy Wilson:Yeah.

46:42Margaret Ables:Well, I hope this episode was useful. I don't know if we solved it, but we certainly circled it, I would say. Gender equity in America, we solved it.

46:49Amy Wilson:Why not? Oh, phew. That's just in time. We're done. No more problems. Don't worry. Solved it. You've heard some about Amy's book, Happy to Help, on this episode. And if you found this episode resonating with you, go and pre-order a copy of Happy to Help. You can find it at bit.ly, B-I-T dot L-Y slash Happy to Help book. It is linked on our website, whatfreshhelppodcast.com. We'll be talking a lot about the book when it comes out in January, but go pre-order your copy today like all the cool kids are doing.

47:23Margaret Ables:happy to help wherever books are sold. Thank you, Margaret. That is so nice of you. And I really appreciate it. And the pre-orders really help. So thanks to everybody who's done it already. I really appreciate it. Go get it, friends.

47:34Amy Wilson:Happy to help. And with that, we will talk to you next time. So long.

47:48Margaret Ables:You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price? And want to tell everyone about it? Yeah, so do we. Here at Designer Shoe Warehouse, we'll give you something to brag about. Like the latest styles from brands you love. Or the trends everyone's obsessing over.

48:04Amy Wilson:Or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Find shoes that get you at prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or dsw.com today. DSW, let us surprise you.