DEEP DIVE: Your Tween, Explained

21:21So like a kid that's been blissfully uninhibited up until now, right? and doesn't really brush their hair and just like to talk about Pokemon all the time, that all of a sudden is noticing that other people are different than them. And what those other people are thinking and perceiving about them becomes terribly important.

21:39Amy Wilson:Oh, my gosh, I can actually clock this. I feel like in my house, which is the transformation of kids who are sort of blissfully happy because they're just being their weird selves all day. And like, I can almost plot it on a calendar the day that they first came home and said, I think I'm weird. Or I think, you know, people think I'm this or that. And it is, again, it is a very necessary skill for us as social animals to be able to perceive other people. Like, it is an extremely useful skill to be able to be, let's say, at a job interview and reading the face of the person or forget a job interview at a cocktail party and say, oh, my voice is too loud for this space, or I am boring this person with this story.

22:34Amy Wilson:It is time to move on. Like these are necessary life skills that they're developing. Or I'm in a situation where something has gone awry, like there's danger in this situation, whatever that perception gives you many gifts in life, but it also brings into focus, I might be a nerd. And that never occurred to me in fifth grade. I just thought everyone was this into trains. Everybody likes everybody. Wait a minute. In seventh grade, I'm starting to realize that people think I'm lame for being this into trains. And what your peers think of you becomes super important. Also, because like in the sort of caveman brain way of doing things.

23:18This is like the beginning of independence, right? It's your first step away from your parents. When your parents take care of you, you don't have to worry about what the tribe thinks of you. You go with your parents. But now this is like the young lion is, you know, young Nala and young Simba, right? They're out in the cold by themselves.

23:37Amy Wilson:Scar has driven them out. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And again, like, yes, you have to figure this out. You have to be able to be out and about, you know, in town or at the football game with your friends and figuring out how to navigate those situations. But also, while we say it's developed, it's developing. Right. So to a certain degree, you're developing these skills, but they're not fully developed. So it's very tricky. You're out there like trying them out and trying to figure out like, yes, I'm going to be cool by fitting in in this and this in this way. But if I try to be cool by pulling the fire alarm at school, I get expelled.

24:23Amy Wilson:Like you still are in. It's not like, okay, you were on this safe path and now you're on this cushy path. It's like you were kind of on this safe path, probably at home being, you know, protected and cared for. And now you are kind of Nala and Simba, like you've been kicked out and like, good luck on the path. You don't really know how to do what we're asking you to do. Right. Which is why the kids at this age become suddenly so fixated on the thing that they need to wear. You know, it's a marker of group membership. Like I'm thinking when my kids who are now, I have a kid in college now, but when he was this age, he needed Under Armour sweatshirts and like neon colors, like visible from space, like neon orange and yellow.

25:09That's what you wore. And socks too. Nike socks that were like$15 a pair that came in these like screaming ketchup and mustard colors. He needed to have those because that was how you marked yourself as a member of this tribe. Yes. And so whatever those things were, for me, it was alligator shirts. I wore JCPenney. No, they were Sears. They were dragon shirts from Sears. They were like Lacoste alligator shirts.

25:36Amy Wilson:Oh, wait, are you talking about the one with the knight on them? I had because that was for the kids who could not afford the alligator shirts. I had a dragon, a tiny fire breathing dragon, which was adorable. But that was the other. There was Lacoste, which had the alligator. That was cool. Lacoste was cool. Then there was it was called like I'm not going to be able to come up with it, but it was like a medieval themed line. And you had the busted ones, which had the castle and the dragon on them. This was like a. Yeah. And like J.C. Penny had them and Sears had them. And it just was like, this is not the tribe has spoken, Amy, and you are out.

26:11It is not the same. Like, it's almost worse to have, right? Something that's like, that's an imitation Nike socks in neon colors. It's the worst. And it was so important to me. And it's just sort of funny, like, oh, haha, like seventh and eighth graders, they're like that. But that's the reason they're like, the group dynamic is so important to me. I need not to stand out. I need to fit in. so I need to wear Jordache jeans, whatever the thing is for the moment.

26:38Amy Wilson:Yeah. I mean, in my middle school, the uniform was, I went to a public school. There wasn't a uniform, just to be clear, but there was a uniform, which was Benetton made a rugby shirt. It was like a rugby themed, it looked like a rugby uniform, but it said Benetton across the muddle. It was gigantic. It was enormous. And at the time, I mean, we're talking, I'm not going to say how many years ago, but it's decades ago. And it was$75, this shirt, which was, I mean, it might, like, I think today that's a$250 shirt. You're talking about very expensive. And then there was another one that was, again, puffy and oversized.

27:15Amy Wilson:It had stars on it. And then there was a little person standing in each star. I don't remember what brand this was, but like, those were the only two. You know what's so funny? That one doesn't ring a bell with me. The Benetton thing does. The person standing inside a star. Let me see if I can Google it and find a picture of it. Because it's just like, and we grew up like 100 miles apart, but completely different. You had to have the star with the person standing in it. I mean, sure, I believe you. It's just that's just so funny that I don't even know what you're talking about. And there was a store in our, I mean, boring.

27:44Amy Wilson:I lived in like the kind of not wealthy town. And then right next to us was the super wealthy town. The super wealthy town's main store had like racks and racks of these two shirts. Like it was that crazy, you know, and I wanted them, you know, but my parents said it would not give me$250 for the uniform. And so I didn't have the uniform. Right. And it is incredible how deeply like lizard brain this stuff is in terms of you are not a member of the tribe because you do not have the marker shirt that says I am a member of the tribe. Right. that we have somehow as a group decided is going to be the thing that we do.

28:24The other thing about this age group that marketers have understood is that they will try on stuff and then drop it just as quickly. Okay. Like you have a kid who will be like... I was just about to say. They'll be goth for like two weeks and then the purple lipstick is gone and now they're sporty and now they're this. And you're sort of like, what are they doing? That's also like completely... They think they have to try on these identities and then they can drop them just as quickly.

28:48Amy Wilson:We have definitely been riding that roller coaster at my house. I mean, very strong identities. And then two weeks later, a different but equally strong identity. And I was going to say when we were talking about the uniform shirts to the worst crime you could ever even worse than not having the uniform shirt would be getting it a month after the cool kids like that was even worse because they'd moved on, right? Like it moves fast. Oh, my gosh. By the time you bought the shirt, if the cool kids had already had it for a month, you were like a triple outcast because it was clearly you were a wannabe.

29:29You were trying to be cool like them. I'm reading this novel right now called I Have Some Questions for You by Rebecca Mackay. Oh, dying to read it. Just read it. Read it, everybody. It's awesome.

29:38Amy Wilson:Her other book, The Great Believers, is in my top 10 of all time. So this is it just makes me think of this. There's a story. It's about a woman who goes back to the boarding school that was, you know, mortifyingly where she spent her awkward adolescence and returns as a teacher. And there's two crime involved. And it's great. You should be there. But anyway, she's remembering this stuff, returning as an adult, because as we were just saying, it runs pretty deep. And she tells the story. It's a novel, but this scene was amazing. She gets a skirt handed down from her much cooler, you know, prep school roommate from a wealthy family.

30:10and she's like, I don't need this anymore. And it was a J.Crew skirt. And she was like, oh my gosh, thank you. It was a cool, cool skirt. And she puts it on the next day and she's walking across the quad and two girls are walking towards her and one of them says, oh my God, I remember that skirt. That was from two years ago. And the other girl's like, oh yeah, I used to have that skirt too. And she's just immediately like, oh my God, it's worse than not having it all.

30:37Amy Wilson:Yeah, it's the worst than not having it at all. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that for kids trying to navigate this, there is everybody's figuring this out. Like even the kids in the skirt, the cool skirt, even the cool kids are figuring this out. You know, they're all. Yes. Jockeying and figure because I think it's very easy and every movie and everything casts the popular kids as like the mean, awful ones. But they're also figuring this out. Like it's an ecosystem in which everyone is playing a very specific role. Right. Yes. And also, P.S., not to pick on J.Crew, but J.Crew knows that this fickleness thing is there.

31:16So that's built into it. That's why there's new skirts every six months, because they know that kids of a certain age will be like, that wasn't cool. That's from April. It's October. I need something completely different that they can, you know, sell you more stuff. Yeah. If there's quick turnover. That they've seen already. That's right. There's one part of this we haven't talked about yet, and that's sort of our relationship with the tweens, other than that it changes. So can we take a break and come back and talk about? Yes. how we're going to adjust.

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34:09Amy Wilson:And now a list of things that used to be fine, but now your tween finds totally embarrassing from the What Fresh L podcast. Putting notes in their lunchbox. Could you stop Doing that? Asking them how their day was. Can we talk about this later? Being seen in public with you in any context. Could you just stand a little farther away from me? Any form of singing. We're not gonna take it. No! Oh, Mom, please stop. Preparing their favorite foods. I don't like chocolate chip pancakes anymore. Smiling of any sort. Cut that out, please. Your humorous use of emojis. Heart eyes. Really, Mom? Making conversation with their friends.

34:53Amy Wilson:This is so embarrassing. Trying to take their picture. Are you done? This is so humiliating. Giving them a ride to school. I'll just walk from here. Attempting to discuss current bands. Seriously, I don't even know who One Direction is. The way you breathe. It's very annoying. This has been a list of things that used to be fine, but now your tween finds totally embarrassing from the What Fresh Hell podcast. Hey, honey, that's as cool as Gryffindor. I've never been so embarrassed in all my life.

35:33All right. So our kids are changing. Our kids are updating. I like to think of it as like they're buffering. You know what I mean? Like they're changing in front of your eyes. Like they're not in the new thing yet.

35:43Amy Wilson:You know that little meme that's like virtual hug loading? It's like that. Yes, they're loading. Yeah, yeah. They're like, they're glitching a little bit as they turn into somebody else. And so you have to figure out, experts say, how to, you know, relate to this updated version of your kid that's very different from they were, from who they were, you know, a year or two ago. It's not bad. It's just different. And so how do you find a new way in? Okay. So this is Dr. Laura, Laura Kermeyer, again, this developmental psychologist, and she suggests that you need to lean in a little bit at this age, at this sort of transitional age when they're starting to slam doors and seek distance from you, that you still have to, she argues, sort of establish the closeness, a time and space.

36:26So, you know, once a week that you go for a walk, because your kid is saying that they want to pull away from you and they want independence, and you sort of collude with that tendency, but they don't really want it. They don't want it all the time.

36:39Amy Wilson:You collude with that tendency. Let me just underline that phrase. Absolutely. This is the trick. And this is what I struggle with, which is that I am way too reactive to the negativity that comes in. And it then exponentially increases the distance between myself and my kids because when I hear, comma, you idiot, I don't know what it is in my background, childhood, or DNA. I cannot let it lie. I mean, I've gotten better because we've talked about it so much on the podcast, but my ability to not engage with someone talking to me like I'm an idiot is negative 20 in terms of I just have to come in and say, I will not be disrespect.

37:33Amy Wilson:You will assert my authority. I will not be tucked down to in my house. And in general, I don't think it's a terrible thing. I think that letting your kids treat you like garbage is a huge mistake. Oh, yeah. But I'm trying to find that truth while also understanding that you don't have to swing at every pitch. You don't have to go out of your way to rise to every piece of bait, which is where I'm having a problem. Or like in my case, I feel like it's like if they said like, don't you know anything on a Monday that when they come downstairs on a Tuesday morning, they still think you're a dum-dum who doesn't know anything.

38:17Like, I think I sort of internalize that stuff. And it's not even like I'm going to make you pay. I'm resentful. It isn't that. It's just like, well, I guess they don't want me around. like they used to. Like you sort of, you opt out. You know, there are times when your kid is upstairs in their room. And if you knocked on the door and said, hey, can I come in? And you, you know, sat down on the bed and like, so tell me what happened today at school that they would be into it. And there would be times that they wouldn't be, of course. But you see what I'm saying? Like you can sort of start to back off a little too much a little too soon because that's what they seem to want, but they don't always want it.

38:47Amy Wilson:Right. It's leave me alone. And you're like, I'd love to because you're horrible. But the fact of the matter is they don't want to be left alone. They want connection and they're going about it completely the wrong way. And also, I think it can be visually and psychologically confusing when you see a person who is your same height and speaking like in a very developed way, you are not peers with this person. You will probably never really be peers with this person. You are their parent. But especially when you are middle-aged versus 14-year-old, I think it can trick your mind into like, you're fighting with somebody as if they're your peer and you're really not.

39:34Amy Wilson:And I think that this is a good time to tap into a lot of like, we had Dr. Becky and we can link to that episode, a lot of good inside work, like remembering to see this as your child who is wearing a disguise of a hideous, door slamming, smelly monster, that taking that very good inside approach, I think is very, very helpful. And believe me, friends, I'm not saying this because I'm doing a great job of it. I'm saying it because I'm trying really hard to fix what's not going well in my house right now, which is, and I have three kids the same age. So it does often feel, I mean, And I literally sometimes will sit in bed with like slumped shoulders, like a fighter who is coming out of like taking four rounds from three different boxers, you know, because that is what it feels like often in my house, which is I'm just everybody's garbage dump and then also wears dinner, you know.

40:32Amy Wilson:And so I do stand my ground and I have had talks with my husband about supporting me. He does often use the phrase, do not speak to your mother that way. and like, let's reset. But at the same time, de-escalating and trying to come from that place, which you know, I think is a little tweet tweet of you seem to be having a really hard time. Do you want to take a break or do you want to talk about it now? Otherwise, let's take a break and we'll talk about it later. You actually do need to use some techniques to go through it because otherwise you are just in, I am in the threshing machine right now of who's going to be yelling at me and talking to me like I'm the dumbest person on the planet this morning.

41:17Amy Wilson:Right. And I always feel like the, well, you can't take it personally, but they're saying like, mom, you're such an idiot. Like it wasn't somebody in the street. Right. It's meant personally. It's so hard. That's not an option for me to not take it personally. But the good inside thing, like when I hear that, I'm like, oh, actually, I did love that episode because you're also good inside. You, mom, are good inside. You're doing a good job. And you don't need to convince the 12-year-old who's venting some spleen on you that you're good. I feel like sometimes I feel like I have to meet this, even sometimes with a you may not speak to me that way, but also like, no, no, no, you're wrong.

41:54I'm not trying to make things harder for you. What do you mean I do? Like, let me explain and then you'll understand that actually I'm a good person that only wants what's best for you. And that's a great point. It doesn't work.

42:06Amy Wilson:And you don't have to do it. No, it doesn't work. And you don't have to do it. And you can't do it. I mean, this is like the old, right? You wrestle with a pig, the pig likes it, and you're both dirty. Like the kid likes it. You know, they're getting something from getting that rise out of you. And I think a lot of things. I think one thing is that finding opportunities, I tend to lean in a little bit on like trying to use like kids slang or trying to talk about Marvel movies or trying to hit the gritty. And they're like, oh, you're so embarrassing, mom. Like you don't even know how to hit the gritty.

42:48Amy Wilson:And I'm like, sure, I do. And I do an unsightly dance. And it's like I try to lean in in safe spaces to playing the idiot more. And that is not natural for me. But I try when Marvel comes up to be like, I like that Spider-Man, you know, who's small like an ant. And they're like, you don't even know the difference between Ant-Man and Spider-Man. It's like, okay, great. I'm the dummy. Like, here we go. Or the things were there. I mean, my daughter is very into fashion right now. And I have found that I'm like, do you like this outfit? And she's always kind of like, no, it doesn't look good. Like, you're old and lame.

43:27Amy Wilson:And it really hurts my feelings. Like I want her to think I'm cool, but I actually have to make a separation. I actually don't want her to think I'm cool on some level, too. But that's a little bit of a process for me. It's okay to process this. I think that's it. We're being faced with a little bit of like I had to wear the Sears Dragon shirt and I wasn't cool then. And I'm apparently also newly not cool now from somebody who used to think I was super cool. It's hard not to take it personally. Yeah. And it is. It's hard. It is personal. And I mean, from, you know, one of my kids said something the other day about basically how old I looked in comparison to someone who was clearly like only four years younger than me was an actress on TV.

44:10Amy Wilson:So she's like, I can't believe you guys are close to the same age. Like you look so much older than her. I'm like, yeah, she's on TV with like my Botox and makeup and like, okay, I look older than her. they were actually not saying it to be mean. They were saying it in that like honest child way. So it's like that bothers me. But then it also really bothers me that like they don't want to be besties with me anymore. It bothers me and it hurts my feelings. But I do try to play out people who stay besties with their mom into their 40s. It's not a good picture, right? So like, Like it's worthwhile work, but it's okay to acknowledge that it's really hard for a lot of different and valid reasons.

44:53Amy Wilson:It's okay to feel hurt about it, but it's then not okay to become, you have described, and I think about it all the time right now, like trying to memorize basketball facts so that you could like talk to your son. You sound like his needy girlfriend. Like you're in behind the scenes, like dancing to try to be right and be interesting to him. And like some of that is okay because we want to stay connected, but we don't want it to become our full-time job to be liked by a teenage boy or girl because that is not our job. Yeah. It's painful. The separation part is painful. And I will say like on the other side of this, I have a 20-year-old now, so I'm way on the other side of this.

45:36And I have a great relationship with that kid now. Is it like he doesn't need me to butter his toast anymore? Like things are different. He's out of the house. But it doesn't mean the sort of sundering part when it's behind you. You think you just, you know, you relate in those own terms. I still look up that kid still into basketball. I still know a little bit about basketball. So I have something to talk with my kid about. Still staying in the game. Still staying in the game. Still know a little bit about basketball because it's so interesting to him. And that's just fun. So I guess I just wanted to say that this doesn't like start hard at 10 and then stay, you know, this hard.

46:09They're not yelling at you that you're a dum-dum forever.

46:11Amy Wilson:No, and I will say from my personal experience that I had a very kind of violent cleaving from my own mother in that I went whatever this like theory of mind, like I believe different things. Metacognition. Metacognition. I completely leaned in as a teenager. I thought my whole family was made up of like vicious squares. You know, I just was like, I was born in the wrong family because I am cool and these people stink. I'm so much more interesting than them. I'm so different than them. And they care about stupid values like school and college. And I care about cool values like being an independent thinker.

46:59Amy Wilson:All this to say, I went through probably two or three years where my mother and I had a very fractured relationship. relationship. I mean, we didn't really not speak for those years, but we did not. We actually had a conversation where we sat down and we were like, we don't get along. We don't like each other. Let's stay away from each other, basically. And on the other side of that, I had a phenomenal relationship with my mom as an adult. But that part of our relationship, we could never have had that phenomenal relationship had we not gone through. I mean, I could have probably been less of a jerk about it, but I do think that it was that separation that led to that closeness.

47:43Amy Wilson:So I try to be brave about it with my own kids because I have seen from the other side that really letting them grow wings and find that independence and be different than you and have different experiences than you means letting go of your bestie for a while. I think I'm going to just sum up, Amy, with this phrase. If you love someone, set them free. If they come back, hashtag sting. If they come back, it was meant to be or something. I don't know. It was meant to be. If it wasn't, I'm thinking about my shirt from the Wildwood Crest Jersey Shore t-shirt shop. If they didn't, then it never was.

48:25Amy Wilson:Yeah, something like that. I think it's meant to be. I think it's fine. But I do think your 10 year old isn't gone for good. Don't let them be, you know, borderline abusive. Don't let them talk to you like garbage. But do let them find an identity separate than you. And don't be afraid to let your bestie be your worstie for a couple of years and it'll hopefully come back. That's what I'm saying. We'll circle back around. Love said you solved it. Yeah, I think we solved it. I want to tell you guys about What Fresh Health Plus. That is our new subscription model. You can always listen to the show for free.

49:00It's always going to be free. But if you want to get ad free episodes plus monthly bonus episodes, just go to the link that's in the show notes or on our website, whatfreshhealthpodcast.com.

49:15What Fresh bonus episodes that are not parenting related that make me laugh very hard.

49:21Amy Wilson:They are rather funny. And let me tell you, I'm learning a lot about Amy Wilson that I thought I knew a lot about Amy Wilson, but these episodes are changing it up. We're going into the vault. That's right. Learning and growing people. And with that, thank you so much for listening. We will talk to you next week. So long.

49:48This summer, no excuses. Double down when everyone else disconnects. At Equinox, that's high-performance living. Science-backed training, real results. Start today at equinox.com.