Do Siblings Need to Get Along?

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17:43Margaret Ables:So, yes, she definitely did. I do think it was probably more oriented to like, be nice. You're not being nice. You're in trouble for not being nice. To which, because of my very deep intrinsic personality, I was like, let me show you how not nice I could be. I just doubled down, tripled down, quadrupled down, quintupled down. Like, I just was not giving up any ground. I really do think that it affected my sister's life negatively. She went in to get like very, very badly bullied in grammar school, at which point I was like, I will kill those bullies. But I think I set her up for that bullying by the way that I treated her at home.

18:27Heidi Raykeil:Honestly, it's something that like Freud and Bowlby, I don't think really got into this idea that she had a because of you. She had a different relationship with her parents. And because of her, you had a profoundly different relationship with her parents. Like your bond, you perceived her when the baby was born. Right. Right. That yes, this is going to ruin everything with my mom. Right. And it's me, not her. That shaped you. And psychologists would argue, like literally shapes who you are. Like you are the person you are because you're a third of four. I am the person I am because I'm the oldest of six.

19:00Heidi Raykeil:For sure. And the kids who came after me, the ways that they reacted, it teaches you who you are and who you are not. Yes.

19:08Margaret Ables:It created, I think, a cycle of behavior where my biggest fear, obviously, a baby comes in and I'm not going to be loved as much, right? That's my lizard brain telling me that. Then I'm, you know, writing stories about the baby dying. I'm being mean to the baby. I'm probably like hitting the baby. Who knows what the heck I was up to. And my parents are then disappointed in me and trying to discipline me. My story is coming true. And I become the spoonbill brother who every time they leave the room is trying to peck her to death because I feel that my story is coming true. And in my young person brain, the only way to fix that is to push her down further.

19:56Margaret Ables:But it's not working because my parents are like, you're gross. Why are you so mean? Right. They love her more. Yes.

20:02Heidi Raykeil:So it's going in circles and circles and circles. It's like this book, Julius, the baby of the world. Did you read that to your kids? I'm going to put the link in the show notes. Kevin Hankess. Some of my very favorite children's books are Kevin Hankess and this mouse. She's pretty happy with herself. She wears cowboy boots to school. Life is great. She's about four. She sounds awesome. Julius is born. And she's like, Julius stinks. Julius is the, you know, and the parents. pick him up and stroke his sweet fur and they touch his nose and she's more and more like, ah. But then eventually a cousin comes from Julius at a party.

20:33Heidi Raykeil:He's ugly. And this girl's like, Julius is amazing.

20:37Margaret Ables:He is the baby of the world. So that was me all over. And I do think it's a deep biology that is worth understanding in the same way that I now have teens and tweens and the like adorable girl who's like, oh, my gosh, I made handmade valentines for everybody. And another girl is like, those are dumb and for babies. You know, it's just what are we doing to be like, I am holding my line as the top dog.

21:07Heidi Raykeil:Poor people. We're trying. So there was this book originally published in the 80s called The Sibling Bond by Stephen Bank and Michael Kahn. It's recently out in a updated edition with a new introduction. So they argued this idea that siblings use each other in order to develop their separate identities. I mean, I knew birth order shaped my identity, but this idea that it kind of goes both ways, like, oh, you're the goody two-shoes. Well, I'm the rebel or whatever. You further define yourself. And then for the rest of your life, I've always thought of myself as a rebel or a goody two-shoes, and it was because of your siblings.

21:39Heidi Raykeil:Oh, this is exactly correct. Yes. They identified three what they called classes of sibling relationships. Close identification, partial identification, distant identification. And this is where this whole, like, is it good to be close gets interesting. Close identification. One example would be what they called twinning, which can be literally twins or just like they act like they're twins. They finish each other's thoughts. They dress the same. They act the same. What was that?

22:06Margaret Ables:Identical cousins. The Patty Duke show. I mean, older than oldie Lux alert.

22:10Heidi Raykeil:Back in my day. We need like a dinosaur alert. That's like. Even I didn't watch that. I just know that that was a song that they played. Identical cousins. Identical cousins. It wouldn't be sisters, but because as one does have an identical cousin. So in cases of twinning, that's close identification or sadly, in cases of trauma of an ace's childhood. You and I, if we were siblings, might be very bonded if we're not sure where the next meal is coming from. Right. We're close identification. Partial identification, alike but different. I like you, you know, whatever. We're not up to hurt each other, but we're not tight.

22:45Heidi Raykeil:They circled this in their studies as the healthiest kind of identification, which is interesting to consider. That's the place where one should be or one's kids should be. That semi-distant and therefore conflict-free or conflict-low is the thing that you're solving for.

23:03Margaret Ables:Yeah, it's like the rope metaphor, right? We're tugging the rope, both of us as hard as we can against each other, or we're just like holding the rope loosely, or we've dropped the rope and walked away. Like those are kind of the three versions of this.

23:20Heidi Raykeil:Right, right. And then there's distant identification where kids, for whatever reason, are in a home where we're maintaining the relationship. It's sort of they're indifferent as they age. Rifts happen. I know a family where this has happened and they become frozen over time. But it's not even like they don't really speak anymore, these brothers. But we're not totally clear on why. Maybe somebody said something and nobody even remembers. And it ended with a whimper, not a bang. And there is no relationship. Yeah. Or we fought over the will and now we don't speak. And that was 10 years ago. And those are distant identifications.

23:51Margaret Ables:I also think it's worth underlining the years, in my case, decades of dry tinder that lays between siblings. And I mean, my husband talks about this. My sister came over at one point to my apartment in L.A. and I can't remember even what happened. But basically, we're having dinner, we're laughing, we're having a great time. And then literally it was like this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pass me that. Fine. Okay. Well, fine. I said fine. Fine. Boom. She stood up. We started screaming at each other. She walked out the door. And my husband was just staring at me as if to say, what just happened? It was like a bomb exploded at the table.

24:35Margaret Ables:And whatever weird match was struck, and we ended up making up, it was fine. But like that ability to just go from zero to 60 and the like, Amy, you have always been the one who thinks they blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But really that da da da, you know, just that there's a ton of kindling that you're kind of waiting through at all times. And the minute the match drops, it's on like Donkey Kong.

25:05Heidi Raykeil:I just saw Esther Perel this week on Instagram explain this blew my mind. It was, I think, mostly about romantic relationships. But in relationships, you globalize the other and contextualize yourself. Oh, say more about that, because that's exactly right. This is it. Say, like, we're sisters, and, you know, you're hosting Thanksgiving, and we're sitting at two, and it's 1.30. And I'm like, oh, the baby, I have to get some diapers. And I'm like, we'll get there. And I, you know, show up at three. To myself, I'm contextualized. You know, the baby went down late, and we're out of diapers. So this is I can contextualize and explain why I'm late for this agreement that we had what time dinner was.

25:45Heidi Raykeil:Whereas you, because I'm the other to you. So you globalize. It's like she's always late. She doesn't care about me at all. Right. She only thinks of herself. She always does this for personality flaw reasons. Right. And that made so much sense to me. Right. My own feelings. I'm like, well, there's a reason for that. I was I didn't feel well that day. Whatever. No, no, no. I wasn't really paying attention because I just come in from the other room when your story might be, you don't care about me or my children. And we do do that. So that's an example of what you were saying.

26:16Margaret Ables:So fascinating. And that is the kind of fight that I feel like I have with my siblings and people I know have with their siblings. There's a marital parallel. Like my story about you, Amy, is that you prioritize your family over my family within the world of our family. We're not actually related. So obviously I'm making this up. Then every time you do something, your baby needs to sleep a little bit longer. Here she goes again. That's right. Like you're feeding a story that you've had about that person since you were 10 years old. And you actually probably have some pretty good evidence for that story.

26:58Margaret Ables:Like, I'm not saying the story is false. It's just that's the kindling that's everywhere. And suddenly you have an experience. And I think most people have experiences with their sibling where you're 20 minutes late for dinner and suddenly the fight is like, you've never loved me. It's like, wait, wait, wait. How did we get here from like I had to stop for gas on the way to dinner? Right.

27:21Heidi Raykeil:I want to underline something you said, like you might be right. You might have a sibling who is always late and who always is a little thoughtless. But that sibling will always contextualize her own behavior in the moment. There's always an excuse for it. And so that person is always going to be baffled if you come at them. Why are you like this? And it's like the baby overslept. I had to get diapers. It makes so much sense to me. Oh, that's why fighting is so unsatisfying because the other person literally can't see their point of view. that you have because they're globalizing and you're contextualizing.

27:53Margaret Ables:And the roles are so well set. I have a friend who inherited a family business with her siblings. She was the youngest, very large age span, like 15 years between the oldest and the youngest. They were then trying to run this company together as six siblings. And pretty much everything they said, they were like, okay, crazy. Like she's the little sister. No one's listening to her, you know? And of course, that's right. And of course, the two oldest siblings are like, we got this, guys. Don't worry. Like, of course, those roles, it was just interesting to see it play out in like a corporate. I was like, oh, that's what happens to everybody.

28:32Margaret Ables:But it's just very, very clear now that you're trying to run a business together. What's wrong with this? Right.

28:38Heidi Raykeil:So to roll this back to the parent listening with a five-year-old and a four-year-old who fight all the time and they should get along so that when they're adults, they're not fighting over the family business like this. They're going to love each other. It's going to be amazing. The next sort of impertinent question is, can you even influence how close your kids are or how conflict heavy they are, which, as we discussed, is not necessarily the same thing? You can definitely influence it, but I don't know if you know of your influencing. That's a good point. Well, all right. There was a study at the University of Amsterdam that pulled together all the parenting programs that were aimed at reducing sibling conflict and sibling interactions.

29:17Heidi Raykeil:And again, to give away the ending, their ending is like, it kind of works, but we can't really tell because there isn't enough research. So it's just interesting that this is, again, this hasn't really been studied enough. So they looked at parenting programs that were aimed at either behavior management training, you know, like you're going to put them in the time on court and then you really are going to mean it or whatever, or mediation training. teaching your kids, I'm not going to come in when I hear the fight start, or I am going to come in, but I'm going to mediate and say, let's talk about whatever.

29:45Heidi Raykeil:You're training on how to do those things. They found that both of those did help in reducing the amount of sibling conflict in the home, which makes sense. You are intervening. There will be less fighting if you're trained in intervening more effectively. They couldn't really prove which approach was better. Of course, what that study didn't address at all is if you get your kids to fight less when they're five or six, are they going to be closer when they're, you know, 29 and 30. So let's take a break. When we come back, let's talk about how we get to that.

30:16Margaret Ables:I have a strong counterpoint when we come back. I have thoughts. You know, every parent can relate to being out of some crucial item and facing the horrible prospect of getting all the kids into the car to the grocery store to pick up more. And it's like, how badly, Amy, do I actually really need or want that milk?

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30:59Margaret Ables:Or here's another one. Toddler's got a cough and you realize you're out of Motrin. Or maybe you had a diaper blowout. Uh-oh, used the last one this morning. I mean, I'm not saying it's happened to me, Amy, but DoorDash.

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32:53Margaret Ables:And now, things kids think moms do out of total love for them, but that moms really do out of total emotional exhaustion. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. Let's have pancakes for dinner.

33:07Heidi Raykeil:Let's play Who Can Be Quiet for longest.

33:11Margaret Ables:Sure. You guys can go ahead and make a fort out of the living room cushions. Let's have ice cream for lunch. Okay, you guys can watch TV all morning if you make your own breakfasts.

33:24Heidi Raykeil:It's yo-yo day, kids. You're on your own for all meals and snacks. I trust you to make good choices.

33:30Margaret Ables:You know what, honey? If you go practice that awesome song upstairs for an hour, I'll give you a dollar and you can come sing it for us all at dinner time.

33:40Heidi Raykeil:You know what? No homework tonight. We're going to skip it.

33:43Margaret Ables:I'll just write your teacher a note. It's pizza movie night, kids. Yes, every Friday. Let's lie down very still on the couch in our PJs

33:51Heidi Raykeil:right away. This has been things kids think moms do out of total love for them, but that moms really do out of total emotional exhaustion. From the Wet Fresh Hell podcast.

34:05Margaret Ables:I think as we examine parenting trends, one of the things that we're finding out, which is not a blaming mom, which is not a you stink at this and you're ruining your children's lives. But that we're probably, I think, coming to some understanding that getting rid of free play and always having kids supervised by adults and maybe stopping conflicts too early and having children be like over protected. and to some degree, like the whole snowplow idea, like our job is to move any obstacle out of their way, we're probably coming to some understanding that like, okay, we need a little bit more grit, like kids need to face obstacles to develop their self-esteem, et cetera, et cetera.

34:50Margaret Ables:I think we also have potentially overcorrected for familial closeness as the top of the mountain, That like we are a group of family with four children. We are a group of six best friends. Like we we support each other and we love each other and we're always together and we do everything together and it's conflict free. That is the ideal. And I think that that is not the ideal. That in fact, sometimes that's going to lead us to situations where outsiders have trouble coming into the family. Spouses have trouble finding their place in a family when the kids grow up and get married. It's like not a breathable relationship.

35:37Margaret Ables:Does that make sense?

35:38Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. And even so, I wonder, like, how do those families get like that? Like, is it about closing the circle and keeping outsiders out? I'm sort of saying you can't create that, but then some families have that. So how did they create that?

35:50Margaret Ables:I think it's not just like closing. We're not talking about people who are like homeschooling their kids, living in a cabin in the woods and having no contact with other people. Like, that's one very extreme example. But I think it is connected to this idea that we've kind of gone a little wrong on that happiness is the top of the mountain of parenting, like our children's happiness.

36:16Heidi Raykeil:I see.

36:17Margaret Ables:Another consequence of that is like our children's closeness and our children's best friendship with each other is also the top of the mountain. And I think, first of all, that puts a tremendous amount of pressure on us as parents. and second of all, it's not even the best idea in the world. I think children feel, I mean, I say this all the time with my kids. I mean, I'm lucky to have a big family. I'm lucky to have a big family who likes to take my kids, but you know, I sent my kids overseas with an aunt, one aunt, this aunt. Do you want to take them on a trip? Like all of these people are available to give you the same experience that I give you as a mother.

36:55Margaret Ables:Not exactly the same. They're not your mom, but like there's lots of adults who love you and can take care of you and you could travel with. I think that that gives you the breathability in the relationship to be like, I love my mom, but she's not my sun, moon and stars. And I think similarly, you can love your siblings, but they're not like the most important other people in your life.

37:19Heidi Raykeil:I'm starting to realize that closeness is not low conflict. Right. So it's like if you want kids never to fight, then they should live in different states and they'll never fight. Right. Perfect. They won't be close, but they won't fight. But that teaching, you are spot on that we are now kind of like there are a lot of kids who get to kindergarten. They've never lost a candy land. Yes. Right. And that's not necessarily the best answer. And that this pro social engagement is what kids learn when they do have to figure it out themselves, where it's like, OK, you the last ball we said was foul. And now this one we're going to say is and he gets to run the bases this time, whatever.

37:54Heidi Raykeil:that the more kids get to figure out that give and take during conflict themselves, and maybe they need to be given skills and maybe they do need you to mediate. But that is how you become close. You create relationships through having fun and then having conflict, right? Then hitting that hurdle and then getting over that hurdle together and then continuing the relationship. That's how you become close with anybody. That's how you become close.

38:20Margaret Ables:I'm thinking of it's wintertime here and we are I was realizing last night and saying to my husband while I was personally crawling out of my own skin. I forget that like the winter in New York and we've got piles and piles of snow and it's freezing and you can't go outside. I feel like I am trapped with these four people who I call my family, my nuclear family, and I want to get away from them. I don't want to hear their voices anymore. I'm really like tired of their faces. and I remember a February break a while ago where one of my kids was going on a trip with a relative relative was taking them somewhere just themselves and right before they went they were like I don't mean to sound rude but I cannot wait to get away from this family for a week and it hurt my feelings I was like oh my god I can't believe my child is saying that to me but as I look back like that's a healthy thing for that person to say.

39:18Margaret Ables:It's healthy for him to be like, you're all annoying the heck out of me. I want to take a break from you for a week. And then when I come back, I'm not going to be as tired of you. And I think that sometimes we're so afraid of that sentiment that we don't let it. And I was afraid of it at the time. Like it kills me to hear my kids say that like, oh, you just hate me and your dad and your, you know, siblings. Like we just paid for your trip. Right, right. He was right. Like, I need a break from you people. You're annoying the heck out of me. Like, that's a very reasonable sentiment that should be encouraged.

39:53Heidi Raykeil:So if you're thinking about do I need to make my kids close? No, you don't. But in the interest of developing relationships and pro-social behavior, there's a difference between sibling rivalry. Yeah, like, we can't hit. We can't pinch. We can't, right, slam the door on your sister's finger. Like, Like that stuff's not okay. We used to have a sign in our house that said, no drilling your sister, because my kids had like a Fisher Price drill. They just would vex. I mean, it didn't hurt. Do not drill the sister. Don't drill me. And so we had house rules that everybody got to come up with their own house rules.

40:27Heidi Raykeil:No drilling your sister. And she was like, no drilling your sister. So that was a hard rule in our house. But you could certainly fight all day about that's mine. No, that's mine. No, you do this. No, you do that. Like that part of it, I kind of thought they were the same thing to be decreased in equal measure. But really, it's like you can't use your hands. You can't use your fists. But you can go at each other. You always, you never. Like, go ahead. Some of that is how you learn to be in a relationship. Absolutely.

40:55Margaret Ables:One thing that we haven't talked about that I think is important to underline is that bullying does happen within families, within sibling relationships. It happened in my sibling relationship and I was the bully. I think that sometimes we also feel like siblings fight. I definitely know people, including my own sister, who were probably damaged by a sibling who they could not get away from, who was constantly bullying them. Now, that bully child has an underdeveloped brain. They might be 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Watch what seems like funny or fun or harmless or this is how kids behave.

41:38Heidi Raykeil:It's not being mean. It's not being rude. I hate your stupid face. That's rude. That's not bullying. Mean. He threw a snowball at my face. OK, that's mean. That's not bullying.

41:49Margaret Ables:Right. Bullying is not meanness. And here is the definition, because I think it helps to make a difference. Bullying is repeated, unwanted, aggressive behavior intended to harm someone involving a power imbalance where the target feels unable to defend themselves. And so that, I think, in families with older and younger siblings can come up very quickly. And it can be really harmful. And I think I was dismissive of it. I mean, my parents were probably too dismissive of it. But you've got to watch out for the power dynamics in a family where one kid is higher in the power imbalance.

42:32Heidi Raykeil:But not every, like, it isn't like every time an older sibling punches a younger sibling in the yard, that's bullying, right? It's this insistent, consistent, persistent every day. You're right. We don't want to be like, eh, it's probably fine and whistle past that.

42:46Margaret Ables:Yeah, it's even better for them not to be close. Like, no, not if it's repeated, unwanted, aggressive behavior intending to harm. And there's a power imbalance. Like those touchstones seem to me to make a lot of sense.

42:58Heidi Raykeil:OK, so here's what we're aiming for, right, for the siblings. And then we kind of hope good things happen in their adult lives. We aim for basic safety and respect and not bullying. Safety, I was going to say, includes bullying. Yes. We've talked about this too. Fairness or clear explanations for differences. Maybe one of your kids is high needs or special needs and the other kid thinks it's not fair. Like that's something you can talk about. But being treated fairly doesn't necessarily mean being treated equally. Or maybe it's travel baseball season and, you know, nobody's reading the little sister Harry Potter at bedtime right now.

43:34Heidi Raykeil:Like that is fair. It's just maybe not what you want right now.

43:37Margaret Ables:And one of the things I want to underline there is your pain is in the gap. So what I was describing, like I picture the perfect family. I picture everybody getting along and my siblings loving each other and looking out for each other. You might have siblings. I mean, one small example. I have two boys and a girl. I was raised with two sisters. and I was really heartbroken that my daughter would be raised without a sister. I was so upset about it and it's fine. I mean, it's turned out okay. It's not what I would have wished for. You might have a kid with special needs, a nonverbal child. That child is going to change the dynamic of your family.

44:19Margaret Ables:You have to work with what you have, not some idea of what your family was going to be, because then you end up trying to force things and you're creating pain for yourself that doesn't need to exist.

44:31Heidi Raykeil:Exactly. All right. So to review everything, if they're close when they're young, they tend to remain close. Whatever close means, does that mean they see each other three times a week or does that mean they never fight that your mileage may vary? Conflicts when younger do tend to result in maybe distance when older, but that might not be something you can totally control, as we were just saying. Yeah. Closeness doesn't necessarily mean low conflict. And again, you're not solving for I want to make sure my kids when they're 35 don't fight a lot. Like that's not really something you should spend a lot of time worrying about.

45:02Margaret Ables:Yes. And I will say just to put a cap on my own story, my sister, who I repeatedly tried to kill as a child and I are besties now. Like, I mean, we really, really are close. We're raising our kids together like it did work out OK after I apologized and continue to.

45:17Heidi Raykeil:The resurfacing of ancient rivalries, which we talked about before. That's the match on the kindling. What did you call it? You called it dry tinder? Dry tinder everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. You can't avoid it.

45:29Margaret Ables:You just notice it. And that helps a lot. Marriage counseling rules. You fight with I statements, not you always. You always. You're always late. I'm really mad because the dinner's cold and, you know, now we all have to eat cold food because you weren't here is a better statement than you are always like you don't care about anybody else.

45:50Heidi Raykeil:That moment that you said like, you know, all of a sudden there's a big fight and your husband's like, what is that? And you're like, it's fine because you in that moment were like, oh, this is ancient rivalries. This is dry tender. You know, that's what this is. And then you immediately move into a place where you can repair. Yes. Or just say like, sorry about it. It doesn't have to write. You don't have to send a dozen roses. It's just, oh, that's what this is. I'm doing this thing that humans do. And you want your kids to learn healthy relationship skills, which are forged in conflict. And so low stakes, what?

46:21Heidi Raykeil:Get off me, is probably more useful for their future closeness, not just with each other, but with other people than it might seem at the time.

46:29Margaret Ables:Absolutely. This gives me a topic idea that we should do a topic that is on the difference between like enmeshment and closeness. What it means to be close. because I think that there's a lot that we were circling around that's really about that topic. There's close and then there's too close. There's close and then there is too close. And I feel like we don't talk about that that much. You don't want the siblings to be too close. You really don't.

46:58Heidi Raykeil:It's not great. Well, I put the links to the research, which also there's not enough research, but I did put the research that there is in the show notes for this episode and our past episodes on sibling rivalry, as well as our fresh take with Susan Dominus, who wrote a book about how siblings influence each other for the positive. Yes.

47:17Margaret Ables:If you would like to support the show even more than you're doing by listening to it and hear a monthly episode that's kind of a behind-the-scenes peek at Amy and my life,

47:27Heidi Raykeil:please subscribe to What Fresh Hell Plus. All you do is click the link in the show notes for this episode or go to our website, whatfreshhellpodcast.com. You subscribe to What Fresh Hell Plus in two taps. You keep listening where you're already listening, and you also get ad-free access to our entire archive of basically 1 ,000 episodes at this point. We love to see it. With that, thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody.

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