Fresh Take: Amy Larocca, HOW TO BE WELL

0:00Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take. From what fresh hell, laughing in the face of motherhood, this is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today we're talking to another Amy, Amy LaRocca. She is an award-winning journalist who spent 20 years working at New York Magazine as both fashion director and editor-at-large.

0:49Amy's writing has appeared in the New York Times, Vogue, Town & Country, and the London Review of Books, among others. She lives with her family in New York and North London. Today, we'll be talking about her fascinating new book, How to Be Well, Navigating Our Self-Care Epidemic, One Dubious Cure at a Time. Welcome, Amy. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here. So let's set the table of what we're talking about. The wellness industry is worth$6.8 trillion. Yeah, the last time I checked. But I do these interviews and I'm always like, God, should I check this morning? because it gets bigger every single day.

1:29What does that include? That includes spas, the beauty industry that has largely rebranded itself as wellness, travel destination wellness, like going on a wellness vacation, gyms, boutique fitness classes. So really it's a huge thing. And then I think probably as you've noticed, there's nothing that won't slap wellness on its marketing. Right. Like checking account, like wellness, you know, like it's just on everything. Like I've seen I've seen the word on everything. I feel like wellness. Tell me if this is right. Used to be called the beauty industry. Yeah. I remember my sister wrote a piece when she was interning in college a long time ago.

2:11I won't say how long ago to not get in trouble with my sister. And it was all about kind of investigating like magazines and how the beauty industry was paying for the ads and then they were featured. And is that right? Beauty, the beauty industry has become kind of the wellness industry. That is one huge pillar of the wellness industry. It doesn't stop there. But yes, you are completely right to say that. It's one piece. I think when you look at beauty rebranded as wellness, I sometimes feel, I often feel that it's kind of beauty's way of saying like, we're modern and feminist. Right. It's wellness.

2:49It's not beauty. But when you start to sort of peel it back a little, it's just beauty. Right. And weight loss and a lot of things that we're pretending we're not doing anymore, but we're definitely doing. We are a million percent doing. Amy, I'm going to quote your book right here. You say women are forever being criticized and then sold solutions for the things that are supposedly wrong with us and that this time is less different than we think. And you talked in particular about the weight loss that our moms might have done. Oh, yeah. The weighing themselves, the, you know, checking the size of their waist, the Weight Watchers points, that all of that has just been repackaged into no, no, no, no, it's not about being skinny.

3:25It's about being well, strong, healthy, strong and healthy. But it's really about being skinny still. It's always about being skinny. I think that's really something that we can just own. I'd like us to own that when people say I want to be strong, I want to be healthy. Really, when you start to peel it back a little for two seconds, it's about being thin. It's about looking young. Those are truly what we're being sold all the time. You need to be thinner. You need to be younger. And whatever words marketers think they need to come up with in order to obfuscate that, I think any savvy woman, any woman who's been around for a minute or two knows exactly what we're talking about here.

4:04Right. And then on the flip side, there's kind of this move, I feel like, to body positivity and acceptance of different, you know, diversity of the way that women are allowed to look. But there's still moisturizer involved, even in showing this range of body types. It's still an advertisement somehow that you can look good at any size as long as your hair looks a certain way or you're properly moisturized. And also, I think properly proportioned. And, you know, I think there's less body diversity than you'd think. And actually, in the course of my reporting this book, the body diversity movement changed completely, I believe, because of the arrival of GLP-1 medications.

4:49So I feel and I, you know, I covered fashion for a really long time. And there'd be these like little dribs and drabs, like, oh, we're going to do body positivity, we're going to have diverse models. And it usually meant like two epically gorgeous women, like the most beautiful women you've ever seen, like with the most perfectly proportioned bodies who were just like a little bit bigger, but were, you know, as you say, still like very conventionally beautiful and, you know, very, very well moisturized. And that was sort of what body positivity had traditionally meant in fashion. But it was actually kind of going a step beyond that when I first started working on the book.

5:25So if you were, say, shopping in a catalog, doing online shopping of like kind of catalog shopping, you might see the clothes modeled on a larger range of bodies. For example, certain brands were releasing a larger size range. All these things were starting to happen at the higher end, which was not what was previously considered sort of like the kiss of death for a higher end brand. You would never want anything over a size 10 with your label on it. But that was sort of beginning to change. And it was like when Ozempic, Wagovi, Munjaro came on the market, it was just like, wait, we can all be skinny?

6:00We can forget about like pretending we like all these different body types once that's available. So it really was, again, what we started talking about was like, we all know what you're saying. We all know it's to be thin. And that really emphasized for me that the arrival of the GLP-1 medications, I was like, oh, we're still doing it. It's less choice, not more, right? In an era when you could be taking GLP-1 injections. Why aren't you? If you're a size that I deem larger than you should be, why aren't you doing something about that? It's another choice that you're choosing to not make. Right.

6:38Let's talk about the health part of this. There's a huge pillar of the wellness industry that you talk about in the book, which is women going to TikTok or spas or things like that to seek to deal with symptoms that aren't being taken seriously by mainstream medical culture, at least in the United States, a lot of chronic pain, a lot of mysterious syndromes that women tend to have more likely. And then that gets pulled into wellness as well. So there are a lot of people out there who are not just seeking to be skinnier, but are seeking to feel better. And what do they find in the wellness industry?

7:12Well, that's another huge part of the wellness industry, another pillar, as it were. And I think if you look back at the history of medicine in this country, and who is treated and who is taken seriously and who is heard, women don't fare so well. And historically, we're doing better. It's getting better. More OBGYN are women now. For example, you know, it was only like not that long ago that the American society of OBGYNs met at the Yale Club, a building to which women were not even allowed inside. So if you need to think about, well, how these are the people who are going to tell me how to manage all of my sort of hormonal changes, my menopause, my pregnancy, everything.

7:57They were meeting in a building that you couldn't even walk across the threshold of. So now we have majority female OBGYNs in America. So it is getting better, but drug research, disease research, these things take years. And diseases and conditions that primarily affect women have historically been underfunded and under-researched. The biggest example is this large category called autoimmune disease. And it disproportionately affects women and there's like no research on it. So I think when a lot of these sort of mysterious illnesses and ailments that women are having end up falling into this sort of unknown category of like autoimmune illness, that's very, very, very, still very murky what medical understanding is of it.

8:42And so a lot of women say the wellness industry, they don't like being told, oh, you went looking for alternative medicine. They're like, I would love some mainstream medicine for what's called medicine, actually. Yeah, hit me with the mainstream. I just want to feel better. And this kind of ability to connect with other women who are having these experiences is actually incredibly helpful. And it's actually not alternative at all, because even with something like menopause, doctors are very undereducated about menopause and have historically been. So even sort of like seeking a kind of whisper network among other women to say, this is what I did and it helped me.

9:19This is what I can tell you about it. This is what I've experienced is not really an alternative, but it's an enormous part of the wellness industry. So it's great. But then you get the people coming in and the vultures circling and being like, well, buy my potions and lotions. And, you know, so it becomes dangerous and it becomes tricky because you become very vulnerable to the kind of snake oil salesman. Right. But also in there somewhere, I have a friend who's dealing with pelvic floor issues after childbirth. They're going to a local. It's not a doctor is what it is. But it's providing a service that is extremely effective and helpful.

9:59because it takes a lot of time to fix your pelvic floor after having a baby. And you're not maybe going to go to a doctor's office 12 times. So you're going to end up with maybe an acupuncturist, maybe a physical therapist. But we actually need, as you said, solutions to these problems. So it's not, we always say this isn't happening because it's our fault. And like, it's not our fault we're looking for these answers. That's exactly right. And so I think there's a lot of women in that kind of wellness community who say like, oh, don't tell me I'm going to look for like kooky stuff. I just want to feel all right.

10:36And no one knows. No one is telling me I'm going to my doctor. I'm pursuing the mainstream avenues and I'm not getting anywhere. So sometimes like the mainstream avenues themselves for migraine, right? I have vitiligo and the woman is told it's your stress. It's your, that's right. You need to change yourself. You need to change your lifestyle and then your headaches will get better or your IBS will get better. And so then you're sent to wellness because they're not giving you anything, but also, oh, I have to fix myself and then I'll be, and it's your responsibility and it is on you and it's you failed in some way.

11:14And I think that's a lot of what I talk about. It's like, there's this idea of these well women who are kind of wafting among us who have like, you know, done everything right. And you're like, okay, I'm just like trying to get through the day here. Do you have help? Help me out. Amy, you describe the well woman so perfectly in the introduction to your book. We're going to take a break and come back and hear what the well woman is all about. We're talking to Amy LaRocca, author of How to Be Well. Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be enclosed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name.

11:58Let's say it together on three. One, two, three. Great Wolf Lodge. You got it, Amy. My kids loved Great Wolf Lodge when we went. You probably already know that it has a huge indoor water park with a wave pool, lazy river, a bunch of massive water slides, but then your pack can hit the other attractions because wait, there's more. Great Wolf Lodge has adventure-packed attractions like Magi Quest, a live-action game kids can play throughout the lodge, plus the Northern Lights Arcade spent some quality time there. So your kid who loves the Lazy River and your kid who loves fantasy games will both have a great time.

12:34Great Wolf Lodge also offers great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties. All under one roof. Unpack the car once and you're settled in to have fun. And with 22 lodges across the country, you're always a short drive away from adventure. We've both had such great times at Great Wolf Lodge, so bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. We wanted to share a terrific new children's album with you. It's called Magnificent, and it's by Lachi, a Grammy-nominated musician and author. Lachi's work focuses on inclusion and helping kids feel confident in who they are.

13:12It's one of those albums that parents can enjoy as much as their little ones. Lachi's playful songs celebrate difference, diversity, self-expression, and imagination. There's a gentle message that runs through the whole album around confidence and emotional well-being, but without ever feeling heavy or lessen-y. Magnificent is the kind of music you can put on during your morning routine, in the car, or wherever your kid needs a little bit of a reset. Let me tell you, I am always here for catchy, thoughtful songs for kids that parents won't mind hearing again and again. Magnificent is streaming now on all major platforms, Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you listen.

13:51We'll put the link to Lachi's album Magnificent in the show notes for this episode. Just click the link and it will take you straight to the album. Or search Magnificent by Lachi, spelled L-A-C-H-I. Well, Amy, I'm about to head off for vacation. And even with those hotel hair dryers, I know my hair will be, as you like to say, bouncing and behaving thanks to Nutrafol. Yes, I do like to say it. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and Margaret and me. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested.

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15:11That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code laughing. Amy, your book starts with a description of the well woman. You know her when you see her, but can you tell us a little bit about that well woman from your introduction? Yeah, so here, this is from the introduction to my book. Do you know a well woman? Odds are you do. She is everywhere with her clean, clear skin, sipping from a non-toxic container full of an expensive, mysterious broth. She is the friend who is not religious, but is spiritual. She swears by her transcendental meditation practice. She swears by a lot of things, like a very specific whisk for her matcha that she sourced from a very specific ethical artisanal website.

15:53She is educated, but not rigid in thought. She is a seeker, and she is unashamed of her frailties because she is so actively engaged in finding unique solutions and cures. You might know her only virtually, but she shares enough about herself for you to understand that she is simultaneously ambitious and content, that her boundaries and orgasms and poop are all firm and beautifully formed. She has so much advice on how you might be more like her, with her working definition of tincture and her pretty pill case full of pretty pills. She is beautiful, tranquil, fertile, productive. She is pure of intention, heavy metals, food dyes, and dread.

16:33So I think we all know this woman. I loved that introduction. Yes, I do. And it's, I'm so full of problems and solutions. And I have come down from the mountain to help you be more like me. And why does that appeal to us? I mean, I'm totally, yes I follow these people I am like tell me beautiful ladies um I think it appeals to us because we've always there's always this idea I mean there's there's a million reasons it appeals to us but this is something I really started to think a lot about working on this book that as women we're always sort of like given this idea that there's like a secret we need to buy it literally sometimes in a book form called the secret yeah exactly and somebody knows this secret it.

17:20And we just have to pay for it. Like we just have to know where to go and have a lot of money to pay for it. And then we might be let in on it. And I think that these this kind of idea of the well woman, I think it's very much like how goop thrives is that there are these people who haven't figured out and they're going to tell us. And I sometimes think about wellness as you're sort of like buying your body back for yourself. You know, like you I don't know what this is. I don't know how this works. I need people who know better and have succeeded in managing theirs better to sell it to me. You say in the book, and I'll quote it, I think of wellness as the project of buying your own body back for yourself, a world in which the branded luxury version of you is available for sale.

18:07And I think there's this also very, as is the beauty industry, it's very intertwined with like class and money and whiteness and definitely kind of ideal whereas I think that in some ways we don't think of ourselves as engaging in like class in the same way that used to happen in what's the show that just came back the gilded age or something but that this really is a thing of like Gwyneth Paltrow who I don't know and maybe a lovely person and is probably you know downline from all of the things that came before. But she really is a very marked archetype of East Coast moneyed white lady. And that that is very wrapped up in this idea that we can achieve this thing.

19:04Yeah. Oh, very much so. And I think that's exactly right. Class is a huge part of it. And actually, I started writing the book before COVID. And then I sort of tore up everything I'd written because I was so aware after COVID, how sort of not silly and actually kind of dangerous it is that we're treating our health with such sort of flippant class behavior. You know, if you think about the words that we're using to describe doctors like boutique and concierge, and people have no time with their GPs. And so they start to trust these people they know online, or, you know, think they know, I'm like, no.

19:41And so these weird stand-ins become medical authorities. And then when the data started coming in about who was getting sick and who was dying during COVID, it was like, how are we tolerating this medical situation? It's like so clear that we have very, very, very strong class divisions when it comes to health in this country. I mean, And we probably weren't using the word comorbidity with frequency before COVID. But I think we all came to understand that having a comorbidity more often than not meant that you were poor. And that was crazy to me, writing about wellness. It meant you were poor.

20:19It meant you were not white. And then people will say like, oh, I don't know. Should I do yoga or Pilates? And it's like, look, if you're making that choice, you're home run. You're good. Like, you're totally fine. That's all icing. We often say that to parents on the podcast. If you're listening, you're already doing a pretty good job. You're seeking out parenting advice. You're way ahead of the game. Yeah, you're good. Home run. What was it about COVID in particular that sort of horseshoed, woo-woo, hippie, drink more matcha to reject everything that scientists and doctors are telling us about COVID?

20:56How did that come together? You talk about it a little bit in your book. Well, I think that it was a kind of perfect storm of things. I think we saw how kind of spotty the medical establishment is in the country. And one of the things that I find really weird is one of the things no one really talks about is how amazing and quickly the vaccine was developed and implemented, right? Like, yay for science. But we're sort of not hearing that, right? We're hearing all this fear. We should actually be like, oh, my God, science is amazing. This thing happened. It shut down the world. A vaccine was developed.

21:31A vaccine was deployed. And we got back to business. Like, it's great, right? Who knows about the timing? And could it be better next time? But it worked, right? Right. But instead, we've got this, like, bananas. Oh, the vaccine's going to give you this. The vaccine's going to give you that. It's echoing into all these other medical conversations and treatments. And I think it's weirdly like a weird place where the left and the right meet. They meet around the backside. I say that all the time. And I think that downstream from what you were saying, which is my doctor isn't helping me. So Gwyneth Paltrow is going to tell me how to be well, that the more that happens, that expertise becomes so diffused.

22:16So that and that we're seeing that now that people are trusting, you know, Robert F. Kennedy more than people who doesn't. And I mean, look, he's the HHS secretary. He is the person who gives like the, you know, sort of national medical advice. But also it's terrifying to underline that he is not a doctor. I mean, a scientist, a doctor, he has no medical history. Getting information from pretty much anybody has become much more accepted than. Totally accepted. The that your doctor is in some sort of authority has just become kind of like or the person online. The notion that like if you are a sort of responsible person, you're questioning authority.

23:01Yeah. To be a kind of person who's looking out for yourself and your family. You're not just taking it lying down. You're questioning it. And I think that that's a really crucial part. And this is a podcast about motherhood. Like, you know, the medical decisions and family usually are made by the mother, like where the children are concerned. Right. Right. Like that's usually the responsibility of the mother. And these decisions, it's like, you know, there's a whole thing. Like when my kids were born, I had a lot of friends who were like, oh, well, I'm going to vaccinate, but I'm vaccinating on this alternative schedule.

23:33Right. And it was sort of like it gave them the sense that they were kind of active participants. They weren't just they were like these kind of super moms. Yeah. Who were more engaged in the welfare of their children because they had, you know, and I'm like, I'm going to go with medical science and my super smart doctor rather than this one hippie magazine that they hand out at the health food store on Remsen Street. But, you know, OK. And just to speak for the people on the maybe other side of it, people have had bad experiences with doctors. Doctors don't always listen to women. I mean, doctors don't always don't always.

24:08And I think like some of the some of the populations who are vaccine skeptical. I mean, you look at like the Tuskegee, the smallpox vaccination scandal that happened. Right. This is not happening in a vacuum. Yeah. Yeah. Like there are reasons. There are reasons. Unfortunately, the sort of valid reasons get conflated with like very silly reasons. Like, I don't know how many times the whole sort of community of doctors and scientists can say there is no link between vaccines and autism, but it's come to. So there are legitimate reasons and they are sort of balled up with crazy reasons. And it becomes very hard.

24:46And I think, I mean, I think the reason it's sort of where the left and the right meet, I think, is because it's like everyone is scared. Everyone is frightened. Everyone is like the outside world has gone mad. And it is my job and my duty to protect myself and my family. And I think that comes from both sides of the political spectrum. And it kind of, in the case of health, manifests the packaging is different, but the fear is very consistent. Let's talk about the idea of getting back to yourself, which you really opened my eyes on that in this book, that you're going to get back to feeling like yourself if you use this wonderful potion or do this exercise program 90 minutes a day.

25:26Getting back to yourself is a crucial part of wellness as if you're not already yourself. So tell us about that. Well, I started thinking a lot, like I would listen to all these wellness podcast when I was researching the book and not even researching the book, just sort of like in my life or I would be sort of exposed to, you know, magazines or anything else. And it was like this consistent message, get back to yourself, get back to yourself. And it really, of course, always focuses around these like very important seismic changes in a woman's life, having a baby, going through menopause, don't worry, we're going to get you back to yourself.

26:00And I suddenly just like one day I was like walking down the street and I was like, well, which self? Which self are we trying to get back to? Because we change all the time. And I don't know what I'm trying to get back to. And I remember thinking after I had kids, like, well, I can't. I mean, that's a lot of things have happened, like down here and in here. And that, I can't go back there. That's gone. And I really came to kind of resent this idea that I had to endlessly be like clawing back, because obviously you're never going to get there. And there was so little celebration of the new version of you.