In short
Fresh Take episode with Carla Ciccone about her late ADHD diagnosis (age 39) and what it means for women, mothers, and “masking”/imposter syndrome. She argues ADHD in women is underdiagnosed because research historically studied girls late and often focused on hyperactive presentations; inattentive ADHD can look like internalized chaos (doodling, suppressing urges, missing conversations). She connects diagnosis to generational trauma, postpartum anxiety, and the “performing life” pressure of parenting and healthcare visits.
Guest backgrounds
Carla Ciccone is a Toronto-based freelance writer, a mom, and author of Nowhere Girl: Life as a Member of ADHD’s Lost Generation.
Key claims
Pandemic-era loss of supports increased diagnoses; symptoms can overlap with CPTSD; shame and emotional dysregulation worsen outcomes; acceptance matters because ADHD doesn’t disappear.
Notable examples
hair twirling and staring in class; rejection sensitivity dysphoria; doctor dismissals (“everyone’s a little ADHD”); parenting performance concerns; perfectionism and letting go of meal-plan/clean-house standards.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOCarla's ADHD Journey
0:45 to 2:14
Carla discusses her late diagnosis of ADHD and its impact on her life.
“So Carla, the topic of this book is extremely timely because the percentage of women ages 23 to 49 who are newly diagnosed with ADHD as grownups has nearly doubled over the last few years.”
Understanding ADHD Symptoms
2:14 to 4:28
Exploring the emotional struggles associated with ADHD in women.
“and then to learn that, oh, no, your brain just works differently.”
Generational Perspectives on Mental Health
4:28 to 6:50
Carla reflects on the cultural and familial attitudes towards mental health.
“Like I didn't, I was so conditioned to be hard on myself that I wasn't very comfortable being like, oh, yes, that's it.”
The Female Experience of ADHD
6:50 to 11:02
Discussion on how ADHD manifests differently in women and underdiagnosis issues.
“And yet there is a cost to living without a diagnosis.”
The Female Experience of ADHD
14:01 to 15:02
Discussion on how ADHD manifests differently in women and underdiagnosis issues.
“Summer is definitely a time when you want to be able to throw something on just before running out the door, while also somehow looking like you definitely didn't just do that.”
The Female Experience of ADHD
15:20 to 16:25
Discussion on how ADHD manifests differently in women and underdiagnosis issues.
“Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.”
Exploring the Nowhere Girl Concept
16:44 to 28:04
Carla discusses her book and the unique challenges faced by women with ADHD.
“Carla, can we talk a little bit about the title of the book?”
Navigating Parenting Challenges
29:41 to 31:11
The hosts discuss the complexities of parenting and self-reflection.
“and Amy was saying, for every three interactions, have two of them be positive with your kids.”
Understanding ADHD in Girls
31:11 to 32:52
A conversation about ADHD's impact, particularly in girls.
“And, you know, especially for schools and educators, and it's sort of seeing what you want to see.”
Acceptance and Self-Compassion
32:52 to 34:35
Discussing the importance of self-acceptance for parents with ADHD.
“And I think having a daughter has helped because I try to look at it like if she was going through this, what would I say to her?”
Show all 13 chapters
Parenting with ADHD
34:35 to 36:59
Exploring the challenges of ADHD parents raising ADHD children.
“But I mean, I think it's about sort of the idea of what is bad, because for me, bad just meant not perfect.”
Redefining Norms and Conversations
36:59 to 39:15
The hosts discuss societal expectations and redefining viewpoints.
“And I think the conversation itself has so much value that we constantly have conversations about, okay, statistically, black boys are disciplined X many times more often than white boys in the same classroom setting.”
Book Promotion: Nowhere Girl
39:15 to 39:36
Introducing Carla Ciccone's memoir, Nowhere Girl.
“tell our listeners where else they can find you.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where OLLI comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics, and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on OLLI.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
0:32Amy Wilson:Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take. From what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood? This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're going to be talking to Carla Ciccone. She is a Toronto-based freelance writer. She's a mom. And the author of the book we'll be talking about today, Nowhere Girl, Life as a Member of ADHD's Lost Generation. Welcome, Carla. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. So Carla, the topic of this book is extremely timely because the percentage of women ages 23 to 49 who are newly diagnosed with ADHD as grownups has nearly doubled over the last few years.
1:07And you also had this experience. The book starts with you being diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 39. So tell us that story and how you got to that point. Yeah, so I was diagnosed during the pandemic. And I think a lot of women were because we were all sort of trapped at home without our usual day to day supports that we didn't know were even supports until they were gone. That's well said. Yeah. And also it kind of opened up access to therapy in a way that wasn't like online therapy, right? So that's how I got diagnosed is I was very anxious. I had a two-year-old at home. I was barely holding it together, barely sleeping.
1:44And I was like, you know what? I think I should try therapy. I think maybe it's time. And the therapist, she didn't know if what I had was ADHD or the complex post-traumatic stress disorder or both. Was the manifestation sort of the same? Yeah, the symptoms can be similar. Hypervigilance, that sort of chronic anxiety and feeling unworthy. All of those things can be ADHD and also CPTSD or both. So yeah, that's how I got diagnosed. It was shocking, but also not because I had spent most of my life feeling different and feeling like I couldn't really keep up. and then to learn that, oh, no, your brain just works differently.
2:27It was kind of like, oh, OK, makes sense.
2:29Amy Wilson:We say a lot of times your heart is hard. And yes, this is as hard as you think it is. But I think in listening to this, we don't always say your heart may be too hard. Yeah. That like sometimes we hear the story, your heart is hard. And we're like, yeah, I guess everybody's just not sleeping. I had postpartum anxiety, which I didn't realize for 10 years until after I had my baby. Yeah. Because people kept saying to me, trying to be helpful, all new moms are nervous. But the fact of the matter is not all new moms are having terrible visions of awful things happening to their baby at three o 'clock in the morning.
3:04Amy Wilson:And so I like just starting with the idea of, oh, you were having trouble. And then the supports got pulled away. But also, you probably had a moment to look at your life, which we don't often get to do when we have a two-year-old running around. You're basically saying like, this is hard. This is overwhelming. I feel awful all the time, but everyone else seems to be doing it and no one seems to be noticing anything wrong with me. So I guess I'll just keep going. Exactly. And I think also in that particular moment, there's this big parenting push of like doing things much differently than our parents did them and approaching parenting in a way that we had no roadmap for.
3:42And that really didn't come natural to me because, you know, it's kind of like learning a new language without anyone modeling that language to you. Like, it's very awkward. And so I think that my trying and feeling like I was failing at gentle parenting and parenting differently also really drove me because all I want to be is a good mom, right? And so if I'm really struggling to achieve that, that's kind of one of the main things that made me go, okay, this is worth it to invest in myself and go to therapy and see what's going on and try to help myself. And yet your reaction to being diagnosed, at least you say in the book, was not immediately like, oh, that totally makes sense.
4:21My whole life tracks now. Your first reaction was like, no, that's, I mean, everybody's a little ADHD, right? That's not, I'm okay. I'm a little disorganized. That's not what's happening here. Yeah. Like I didn't, I was so conditioned to be hard on myself that I wasn't very comfortable being like, oh, yes, that's it. I forgive myself now. So while I think I knew it made sense, yes, of course, I have ADHD. I've struggled with these things my entire life. I don't think it was a magic wand that made me all of a sudden able to forgive myself and to switch off that self-doubt and blame that so many people with ADHD struggle with.
4:59Also, I had this strong association of ADHD being a hyperactive little boy's disorder. Right. And so there was a bit of embarrassment, I think. And before I knew much about it, I wouldn't have wanted that when I was in school with those boys. And I don't know if I want that now, you know? So you didn't see yourself reflected in what you understood ADHD to be.
5:21Amy Wilson:Yes, exactly. It's complicated also talking about breaking generational cycles that I know from the family that I grew up in. toughness was valued everything's just a little too precious I mean my mother was a therapist so not so much but I think in the generations before hers certainly the idea that you would discuss your own problems was so self-indulgent and ridiculous yes please we've all got problems there's people you know starving somewhere and you've got ADHD you know this idea that we're not allowed to put ourselves first and lean into diagnoses that help us understand ourselves and be better women and mothers.
6:07Amy Wilson:It's odd that there's pushback against that, I guess. Yeah, it's odd, but I think it makes a lot of sense when you look at the family that you grew up in. I'm the daughter of immigrants and my grandparents fought in the war. They were prisoners of war in Italy when Italy switched sides. There's just a lot of generational trauma. And then they came over to Canada and it's very hard to start over in a new country. And Italians were known as the workers, the hard workers. And I think that mindset of just work and survive gets passed down. And like you said, there's not a whole lot of room for explorations of the mind when you're just sort of living day to day to get by and survive.
6:50Yeah. And yet there is a cost to living without a diagnosis. A huge cost, yeah. And for women in particular. But tell us a little bit about when you started to look back, the costs that you saw to the first 39 years of your life, feeling bad about yourself without understanding something about yourself. Yeah, I think the biggest cost for me was this internalized shame. And that led to everything else being so much worse. And I think that comes from both children with ADHD and adults struggle with emotional dysregulation. So your feelings feel bigger than maybe other people's do, or you have bigger reactions to things that other people think like, that's get over that.
7:34That's not a big deal. And I think because there was no roadmap of like, here, yeah, you did have a big reaction, but here's how we're going to get through that. Or don't worry, give yourself a minute because I got in trouble for having those reactions. I think that turned into this shame about like who I was. And I carried that with me. So I think that that affected every aspect of my life, really.
8:00Amy Wilson:Can we talk about ADHD inattentive versus hyperactive? Because I think that certainly I've heard a lot of people talk about this change that I think everybody pictures like a little boy wrecking the restaurant while everybody's trying to eat or like the kid at the playground who's running around and pushing everybody down. then it has also become, at least in the U.S., very colloquial. That it means I forgot my purse when I left the house. So give us a little bit of a tour of your introduction to ADHD and this inattentive versus hyperactive dynamic. Yeah. So I initially thought ADHD was just hyperactive, but the inattentive type is the type that most women have.
8:43And it's kind of, if you think of the hyperactiveness gets turned inward. And so that chaos is still going on, but it's internal. And so instead of running around the room, I'm going to sit on my hands, or I'm going to twirl my hair, I'm going to doodle, and I'm going to sort of just like, do everything I can to suppress that urge in me. And then that leads to more not paying attention. And then more, you know, I miss what the teacher was saying, or I don't know what's going on in this conversation. And that kind of feeds the low self-esteem that we see in a lot of girls and women with ADHD.
9:19Amy Wilson:I mean, I hear that about a lot of different things that like men, traditionally, whether we're talking about gender stuff, whether this is baked in or learned, that men tend to turn their problems outwards and women tend to turn their problems inwards. But it comes into medical bias here. And this is why ADHD, you argue in the book, is underdiagnosed in women, is because it tends to be inattentive and we're looking for a horse and it's a cow, that it gets underdiagnosed in women. Did that play out in the experts that you spoke to? Yes. And I mean, the main reason that that's such an issue is because they didn't study girls.
9:56Researchers just assumed that girls didn't get ADHD until the mid-90s when one person, Dr. Stephen Hinshaw, started studying girls with a disorder. And then the first girls to be studied were the girls with the more hyperactive type that were more easily identified. So we have this like huge decades long lag in research. And I think that's why we're seeing more women get diagnosed now because research is catching up and they're looking at how different factors influence ADHD in women, like hormones and big life changes. All of those things can sort of bring out the disorder that was sort of laying dormant in someone that didn't know they had it.
10:35There can actually be a delayed onset in women, you're saying? Yeah. So women have something called the female protective effect, I believe it's called, where we compensate. So we're like, we're doing everything we can to compensate. And then maybe a big life change happens, like we go away to college, and then boom, all of our supports, maybe our mom reminding us, or the teachers we had in high school are gone, and we struggle. And that's when we get diagnosed, or we have a kid or some other big life event happens where things change and we can't keep up. If you have the genes for ADHD, then it can come out.
11:14Amy Wilson:This is a super interesting thing that I've been learning about on the other end with aging people, that dementia is, it manifests later in women. But some people think it's because women are so at masking, that women are so good and have been so well trained to keep up appearances. And that I was talking to a gerontologist, older person doctor, and they were saying about someone who had a similar experience, the last member of her family died. And then she was like full blown dementia. But he was saying she's probably been in it for a very long time and working 24 hours a day to keep up appearances.
11:54Amy Wilson:is that emotional work is so hard and it takes so much. It's so tiring. And I think that's why a lot of people after they get diagnosed and there's this idea like, OK, now I know I'm masking. Now I can stop. But you can't. No, it's too baked in the cake. Yeah, it's programmed into you. Yeah, you can't just stop doing it. And then I think there is a bit of, for me anyways, a bit of shame or embarrassment that I couldn't stop. What do you mean? I don't know. Like, where does my personality end and masking start? Because when you get diagnosed this late, it's sort of hard to know. But I think, like you said, masking is in some ways is protective.
12:32It's also what's expected of you. Exactly. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We're talking to Carla Ciccone and her new book is called Nowhere Girl, Life as a Member of ADHD's Lost Generation. And we'll be right back. After a long day in the summer sun, my skin needs a hydration reset. That's why I love Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum. It's super lightweight to put on, no waiting 10 minutes before you can even get dressed. And even though I'm just starting to use it, the hyaluronic acid is really helping my skin retain more moisture. Amy, agree.
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16:25Amy Wilson:For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners$10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing. That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code laughing. Carla, can we talk a little bit about the title of the book? To be a woman who understands that there's nothing wrong with her, she's not deeply flawed, she has a brain that works differently, is to be a nowhere girl. So tell us about that experience and how you started to realize there's a lot of us out there. I got diagnosed and then basically my whole friend group either was diagnosed or started identifying as ADHD.
17:09It just seemed like my whole community sort of started becoming more aware of and educated around ADHD. But I called us Nowhere Girls because I think there's this real loneliness that comes with feeling different your whole life and not having a name for it. And I was always searching for answers in myself. Like I look to astrology or numerology and like, because I always felt like I am so different. I don't feel like my friends. It's hard work for me to sort of keep up with them. And I didn't have a reason for it. So that plus the fact that girls weren't studied for many decades, we were just left out of the research.
17:48That was why I named the book Nowhere Girls.
17:51Amy Wilson:We were talking to Amy LaRocca about the wellness industry. and she made a point that hadn't really occurred to me because we like to goof on the wellness industry because it's goofy. But she was making the point that a lot of women have not been heard by their health care providers. They're not being treated. Their symptoms are being ignored and overlooked. And so they are searching for answers. And you can maybe be like, oh, my gosh, she's doing numerology. What the heck? You know, you're looking for an answer to a real problem that nobody else is helping you with. So the idea of being a seeker in that way, I think it sometimes gets downplayed as, oh, that's like a California hippie, goofy person thing to do.
18:34Amy Wilson:But it really reframed it for me thinking about that idea of you are having an actual personal experience that nobody is giving you answers for. And so you're looking for answers. Exactly. And I think even now, I have an ADHD diagnosis, and I still have a hard time in situations like going to the doctor, because that is one of those high stakes masking situations where you're like, I want to get my points across and appear put together. And the worry of meeting with this professional person, especially if it's a male, but not necessarily, overrides communicating how you're feeling. And then sometimes you do manage to communicate it, And then you get, oh, that doesn't matter.
19:20Oh, you know, it's okay. Everyone goes through that. Yeah. Everybody's a little ADHD, right? You can hear that in the doctor's office too, right? Exactly. Yeah. So because of that emotional overwhelm that people with ADHD experience, those situations feel a lot harder. Like going to the doctor and your symptoms getting downplayed and being sort of dismissed could be devastating. And you could maybe turn into like, I'm not going to go see the doctor again then. And then it will have a cascade effect on your health and your life. So I think the need for more sensitive and well-trained doctors and how ADHD manifests in women is pretty huge.
19:57Amy Wilson:Let's talk about imposter syndrome, the feeling that you're faking it, that you're going to be found out, that if you're in the meeting and giving a presentation, you feel like you don't really belong there. Any minute, someone's going to stand up in the back and say, what are you doing here? You're the dummy. Talk about the relationship between ADHD and imposter syndrome for you. Yeah, what I've been calling masking, I think, could also easily be called imposter syndrome because it kind of goes hand in hand. I struggled so hard to keep up appearances that that imposter syndrome has been a constant for me since elementary school.
20:30Like, oh, if I stop pretending, they're all going to know and then they're going to make fun of me or I'm not going to get this job.
20:37Amy Wilson:And this is another example of your heart is hard, but you may be off the scale of hard. Yes. Everybody has imposter syndrome. Everybody has felt the feeling of I'm not as smart as these people. I don't belong here. I think we've had a conversation about not minimizing ourselves. But when you hear like, oh, everybody has imposter syndrome, it seems also worth noting that for you, it was much more profound and maybe damaging than it was for people who sometimes fleetingly have that feeling. That's right. Yeah, it's harder to get over. It becomes almost debilitating. For me, throughout my career anyways, it led to some very impulsive decisions.
21:18It led to me feeling like this isn't worth it. Feeling this overwhelmed and bad about myself at work and after work is not worth it. So I'm just going to quit this job.
21:28Amy Wilson:Yeah, I was going to ask you about giving us some examples. You talk about it in the book about how this manifested for you at different, as we call them, ages and stages. Give us a few examples so that people listening are like, okay, I recognize that or maybe I don't. So as a kid, for me, it came out as hair twirling, staring through my teacher while I was trying to listen to my teacher, feeling very misunderstood by my peers, but really trying to impress them and want to be just like them and feeling devastated by social rejection. Like in elementary school and then in junior high school, I was just devastated by it.
22:10And it took away my focus on school, quite honestly. I was so concerned with not being likable and not knowing how to interact with people in the same way that they were seem to be interacting with each other, that it stole my focus. Totally. I think that's called rejection sensitivity dysphoria, RSD. And it's a feature of ADHD. And like you were saying before, Margaret, like, sure, everybody feels rejected. Sometimes nobody likes to be not invited to the party, but this is, but this is, it gets in the way, right? It gets in the way. And the thing with RSD is that it's not just real rejection that triggers it.
Read the full transcript
22:46It can be perceived rejection. So it could be like, oh, my friend didn't comment on my new jacket or whatever. And like, oh, that's devastating. It can be just something that you think is going on that maybe the other person didn't even intend. Yeah.
23:00Amy Wilson:I can't imagine how much for young girls today, social media is now playing a whole other role. Literally, like, did you get the likes, you know? Yeah. It seems so dangerous. And I don't think I would have done very well. Oh, God. I would have never survived. What about the heightened insensitivity to injustice, which is another thing that people with ADHD have? So this is something that you had as a kid. You saw it play out without knowing that it was particularly turned up for you? Yes, absolutely. Because I was so tuned into other people's feelings, I often took a step back and kind of catered to other people's feelings at the expense of my own.
23:37I don't know if that happens with everybody with ADHD, but that's kind of how my social life played out. I know what it feels like to be overwhelmed and derailed by my feelings. And oh my gosh, if my friend is experiencing that, then I will try to step in and try to take that away from them, which is a kind of impossible thing to do. You can't control how other people are feeling. But again, like I was confused as a kid. I thought if my feelings are so powerful, maybe I can help them take away some of theirs. Well, their feelings must be as powerful. Yeah.
24:07Amy Wilson:You say in the book, nowhere girls bend ourselves into uncomfortable shapes for our entire lives, ashamed that we're unable to perform life with the ease that other people seem to. It's kind of predicated on the belief that everybody's performing life. Like even at the center of it is the idea that everybody's putting on a show. I mean, in some ways it's true. It's definitely true. But I think, is there a goal to like integrate that idea that you can just exist in the world versus a feeling that what was the episode we did Amy it was called parenting with an audience right we talked a lot about how much your parenting changes when other people are watching you yes and then it becomes much more unnatural it becomes much more like look at how happy I look at how well we get along or yeah look at how stern a disciplinarian I am and then someone the other day I was getting my kids to do something they said oh you're so good with them you're such a strict mom.
25:01Amy Wilson:And I was like, yes, I did it. And I'm like, oh, I'm still doing the thing where I care about how my motherhood performance is playing to people I'll never see again. So talk a little bit about that aspect of the idea of performing life. Well, I had a mom who was a theater kid. So do our kids, for the record. So you often said, like, all the world's a stage. So I kind of grew up with this idea that you leave your house and it's on, right? The audience is waiting. They bought the tickets. Let's go. Yeah. So I guess that's why it didn't feel like the performance I was giving was unnatural in some ways, because that's what was expected of me.
25:41And, you know, you go to school and that is what is expected of you, right? Especially for girls. If a girl kind of behaved in that same hyperactive way as little ADHD boys do, we would get punished in a harsher, I don't know if in a harsher way, but in a different way, in a way that sort of strikes at our self-esteem. Because we're trained to be good. We want to be good girls. And I think it's maybe a bit more devastating if we're seen as not good by our teachers or parents. There's a statistic you have in the book, pediatric psychiatrist Michael Jelinek. He says a child with ADHD receives about 20 ,000 more corrective or negative messages by the age of 10, 20 ,000.
26:25And that there cannot not be a self-esteem blow that comes with that. Exactly. Because it's not like especially parents in the 80s and 90s were, you know, balancing that with positive feedback. Right. It was just the corrections and the constant sort of negative feedback that you're getting. So, yeah. Yeah. And particularly in a classroom or when you're when you have three kids and one is ADHD. It's like, no, we're doing this now. Can you just, will you just, right? It becomes sort of the background noise to an ADHD kid's life. It's sad, but you have to look at it honestly. And then that becomes your internal voice.
27:02And that's something that I struggled with a lot and still do sometimes is that I can motivate myself by being quite mean to myself. because that's sort of what it sounded like for me when I was a kid to get corrected that much and constantly scolded and lectures. And so sometimes when I have to do something, I'm like, very not nice. I won't say the words that I say.
27:23Amy Wilson:That's really interesting. We're talking to Carla Ciccone. She is the author of Nowhere Girl, Life as a Member of ADHD's Lost Generation, and we'll be right back. Listen, Amy and I talk about it all the time, how the world of cash has turned into just beeps and boops on your phone, and it makes it really hard to teach kids to be smart about money. That's why Cash App now offers managed accounts for kids ages 6 to 12. Your kid gets a customizable Cash App Visa card that you manage with no subscription fees because it shouldn't cost you to help your kid build good habits with money, and then Cash App grows with your kids.
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29:41Amy Wilson:We were just talking on another episode, and Amy was saying, for every three interactions, have two of them be positive with your kids. It's simple. I was like, uh-oh. Failed. Got to go back to that one. I'm working on that. Not saying I'd do it. But I also noticed with girls, and I have to admit, this morning, my daughter was having a hard time at school and it's back to school. Everyone's miserable. And I said to my daughter as she was walking out the door, well, I hope today goes better, but at least you look amazing. Like she'd done her hair and she walked out the door and I was like, no, I completely failed the motherhood test.
30:16Amy Wilson:I literally just said to my daughter, it doesn't matter if you're unhappy, you look pretty. And it just kind of came out. I don't know. She looked particularly cute and adorable to me this morning. But I was like, oh, God, that was really, really poorly done. I was a parenting podcast, for God's sakes, and I stink at this. I don't think there's anything wrong with telling your kid you think they're pretty. Tying it to like nothing matters as long as you're pretty, I think is where I maybe went a little off base. Listen, I'm giving myself grace. But right after the door shut, I thought that was not my best parenting moment.
30:47Amy Wilson:But I think what's going on, especially with girls, some of the ignoring of ADHD may come from the fact of, well, you're pretty and you're quiet. And so we have no further questions for you because pretty and quiet are what we want from our girls, maybe. Yes. And so is that something that you see? Like, there's obviously the negative behaviors that people are trying to correct, but maybe sometimes over praising the wrong positives. Of course. And, you know, especially for schools and educators, and it's sort of seeing what you want to see. And if you're seeing this put together kid who's like maybe not the best with their schoolwork, but they're doing it.
31:25And then the parents are seeing a totally different child coming home and melting down and bouncing off the walls and it doesn't line up. But I think that we still don't judge girls in the same way as boys. And I think there's more awareness around how ADHD manifests in them, but it has not infiltrated the school system in a meaningful way. And also, I spoke to experts for the book who said, don't even tell people you have ADHD. Explain the symptoms and not those letters, because everybody kind of has a different idea of what they mean. and you're not necessarily going to change someone's mind by saying, oh, my kid has ADHD, so can you accommodate them?
32:07It's like, no, my kid needs movement breaks every hour because that's how they learn better. Reframing it that way because there's still a huge misconception. Can we talk about what it's like once you have this diagnosis and you move forward? Because having the diagnosis is important because your life will improve, but it doesn't mean that it goes away. So I'm going to read you a quote from the book because this really stayed with me. For women with ADHD, you say, there's always something we're going to do wrong. Some ball we will inevitably drop, not just because we're human, but because our disorder, even if we're in therapy, have help at home, take meds and exercise dictates that we will screw up some of the time.
32:46So is that acceptance the most important part of it? Yes. For me, it has been acceptance and also trying to not be hard on myself about it. And I think having a daughter has helped because I try to look at it like if she was going through this, what would I say to her? And it would be life is hard sometimes. And sometimes things happen, but it doesn't mean that you're bad. And it doesn't mean you did anything wrong. So I try to turn my parenting on myself. Yeah. In those moments, and I don't always manage it. But then again, when I don't manage it, there's always an opportunity for self-forgiveness when you mess up eventually.
33:25So I try to eventually get there and just be gentle.
33:29Amy Wilson:You say in the book, we can be ourselves instead of twisting into someone else's idea of who we ought to be. And I think that's going back to the performing life quote. I think for people with ADHD or not, or whatever happens to be going on with them, the idea that you don't have to constantly fit yourselves into we've had conversations about like what is a mother what is a good mother that there are these very specific costumes and that if you don't fit them you don't fit them and you're therefore not part of the mother club and trying to just say it's all mothering we're sitting here listening and recording a mothering podcast.
34:10Amy Wilson:We're doing our absolute best. We're trying, you know? Yeah. And so what does it look like for you to try to stop shape shifting in the way that maybe you used to? That's hard. Like, I think that that's an ongoing process, especially with motherhood, because it's something that I don't want to be bad at, right? Like, I don't want to be... Well, and you can't afford to be bad at it. You got a human life depending on you. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. But I mean, I think it's about sort of the idea of what is bad, because for me, bad just meant not perfect. Because I also got diagnosed with perfectionism when I got my ADHD diagnosis, and they're quite common together.
34:48And perfectionism isn't like, I'm perfect. It's like, I'm constantly trying to be and failing that. And so I think that letting go of the ideas of like, you know, if I don't have a perfectly planned meal plan every week, or like, if my house isn't perfectly clean, like those things that... You have to let go of those ideas. Exactly. I've let go of them.
35:08Amy Wilson:And let me tell you, life's great on the other side. Exactly. Yeah. And I have too. But you know, I really wasn't raised that way. I was raised to like, these are the standards that you have to uphold. And if you don't, what kind of woman are you? Right? So it was hard for me to shake. And I had to grieve an idea of myself that I had that didn't manifest. But you're right. It is a lot better on the other side of that. So ADHD, the heritability of it is up to 80%. I'm quoting your book. So I imagine part of the diagnosis is like looking back and thinking, okay, where did this play out in people who might not have understood themselves?
35:46And that's really unfortunate. And then of course, it's wondering about our kids and their kids and how it will continue to play out, right? So your daughter is very young now. If she has an ADHD diagnosis someday, how would you raise her differently knowing what you know now than maybe somebody who didn't understand ADHD would. Yeah. Well, I think I'm trying to do that anyways, because, you know, the odds are not in her favor. And I suppose how to raise with acceptance is a good parenting period, right? Exactly. Like ADHD parenting tips are just sort of good in general. But some of the things I do struggle with, not the gentleness and the reframing things to be positive rather than negative, but the schedules and charts and rewards and like those things, I'm not great with schedules.
36:31Like I have ADHD. So some of those things I'm like, I need a therapist to tell me what to do before I can do them. So I think that's what's hard about ADHD moms parenting ADHD kids is like, sometimes there's just a little bit of chaos in your house because you bring chaos. And also then your children bring the chaos. And sometimes it works and sometimes it feels really overwhelming. So. But there's probably a gentleness that underpins that. Yes. And a relaxed acceptance. Yeah. Which is way more important. Yeah. Than the schedule.
37:04Amy Wilson:And I think the conversation itself has so much value that we constantly have conversations about, okay, statistically, black boys are disciplined X many times more often than white boys in the same classroom setting. It's a study. It doesn't mean that the people involved are terrible and racist. It's a point of data that starts to say, okay, girls, this, boys, that, however you believe gender is constructed, these are problems that are manifesting that we can have a conversation about. Because if we skip the conversation, we have to just, it's nude pantyhose. Like, what is a nude pantyhose? You know, it's, it's, you know, when we were...
37:48Amy Wilson:Lux alert. Sorry, that was a real oldie lux alert. Back in my day. But like back in the day, nude pantyhose meant very pale white leg woman pantyhose. Oh, I thought it meant you didn't want to shave. Well, that too. Or the nude flesh colored crayon, right? Flesh colored crayon, right. Our default starting point, I think that we have gotten better and there's a lot of room to go of what is our definition of a flesh colored crayon? because the people who don't fit that say, I must not be part of whatever's going on if that's what people think a flesh-colored crayon is. And it strikes me in your work that you're doing that work of redefining what the starting point looks like and allowing people to have conversations about how this manifests and what we can do about it.
38:37Yeah, well, I hope so. I think that, yeah, the conversation is getting louder around this. And like I said, I don't know if it hasn't infiltrated the schools, which I think is where it has the biggest impact. It's starting to. It is. I've had some conversations with teachers who are like, I'm learning every year and I'm figuring stuff out. Yeah, I think it is. That's awesome. But yeah, I think I'm just doing what I can to spread the word. Carla Ciccone's new memoir is Nowhere Girl, Life as a Member of ADHD's Lost Generation. it's out now. You can buy it at the link in our show notes or wherever you get books.
39:14And Carla, tell our listeners where else they can find you. Yes, I have a website. It's CarlaCiccone.com and I post my work on there. So check it out. I'll put the link to that as well. Carla, thanks for talking to us today. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
39:35Amy Wilson:Thank you to Osea for sponsoring the show. Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum is multi-layer, hyaluronic-powered hydration for the entire body. And right now, we have a special discount just for you. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide with code FRESH at oseamalibu.com. That's code FRESH at O-S-E-A, Malibu.com.
From the publisher
What happens when you finally, as an adult, understand for the first time that your brain has been wired differently all along? Writer and mother Carla Ciccone joins Amy and Margaret to discuss her memoir NOWHERE GIRL: Life as a Member of ADHD’s Lost Generation. Together, they explore how ADHD in women often presents differently than the “hyperactive little boy” stereotype, and the lasting impact on many adult women with ADHD of having been undiagnosed for decades.
Carla shares her journey through shame, perfectionism, and masking—and how diagnosis and self-acceptance have reshaped her life as both a woman and a mother.
Key Topics Covered:
Why ADHD in women is historically underdiagnosed
Rejection sensitivity dysphoria and imposter syndrome
Raising children with ADHD as a parent with ADHD
If you’ve ever wondered why ADHD feels different for women—or why so many are diagnosed later in life—this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and community. Carla’s story will resonate with anyone navigating motherhood, identity, and the struggle to stop “performing life” and start living authentically.
Here's where you can find Carla:
www.carlaciccone.com
@cciccone on IG
Buy NOWHERE GIRL: https://bookshop.org/a/12099/9780593729519
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
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ADHD in women, late ADHD diagnosis, inattentive ADHD, hyperactive ADHD, ADHD masking, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, imposter syndrome ADHD, ADHD perfectionism, motherhood and ADHD, Carla Ciccone, Nowhere Girl memoir, ADHD and generational trauma, parenting with ADHD, ADHD emotional regulation, underdiagnosed ADHD in women
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