Fresh Take: Catherine Price, THE AMAZING GENERATION

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16:33Catherine Price:Sure. So this is something that John Haidt, my co-author, is very into, this idea that there's obviously multiple ways to go through the world. But if you think about defend mode and discover mode, discover mode is when we're kind of open to new experiences and we're in a state of curiosity, new things feel exciting and not threatening. We were basically open, open to discovering, open to experiencing things. Defend mode, on the other hand, is when you are, I mean, it's what it sounds like, it's when you're in a very defensive state where you perceive things around you as threats, and you're kind of fearful and worried and anxious, you ruminate a lot, you have negative thoughts continuing to run through your mind, which is kind of a, you know, survival mechanism if the environment truly is threatening.

17:14Catherine Price:And what John John writes about and talks about is how social media in particular has driven many of us, particularly teenagers, more into this defend state of mind, where we're constantly on guard against other people's judgments against us. And we are always kind of looking out to see who might be attacking us. It's a very protective state versus real life, where you actually, if you're engaged in real life, and you feel confident in real life, where you actually can go out and be a little bit vulnerable, because you're not worried about being attacked all the time, You're not worried about being criticized or made fun of for trying new things.

17:48Catherine Price:And so the reason we brought that up in the context of The Amazing Generation is just to introduce to kids the idea that you could have these two modes going through life, one of which is going to leave you feeling anxious and trapped and fearful most of the time, and the other of which is going to actually empower you to have more experiences and to go out and have more fun in the world, have more adventures, create more memories. and what we were trying to convey to kids is that pretty much everything about social media is designed to put you into defend mode because you're subjecting yourself to judgments and criticisms not just from your friends but from strangers on the internet and you're often being inundated by content in the case of teenagers in particular content that makes you feel bad about yourself so it really can have an effect on how you approach the rest of your life as well so our encouragement to kids is to do everything you can in your power to flip your brain into discover mode by doing and trying lots of things in real life with real people.

18:41Catherine Price:And that has the added benefit of reinforcement. The more you do stuff with real life, real people, and make it through, whether or not it's a good experience, the more confident and competent you feel and the more likely you are to be able to go out and do new stuff in the future without fear.

18:54Angela Santomero:The book I think captures very well something we've talked a lot about on this podcast, which is the strategy of empowering kids to recognize people who are trying to trick them. For example, like the way you might talk to a kid about vaping is to say, can you believe they're making this poisonous, horrible thing? And they think you're going to be dumb enough to try it if they make it bubblegum flavored. They're going to give you poison flavor as bubblegum, and they think you're going to fall for that. That's an approach that can be not 100 % successful, but it can work with kids to say, hey, let's get on the same side of the net against the vaping companies.

19:39Angela Santomero:So you focus a lot on the role of the tech giants and the way that they're selling kids information, saying things that are free, that apps actually then start costing a lot of money. and the idea that they know the product is hurting you, but they're selling it to you anyway. I think we've talked about it, Amy, mostly instinctively, like, oh, these people are trying to trick you. But how did you come to that approach?

20:09Catherine Price:I came to that approach for pretty much exactly the reason that you just mentioned, which is that telling kids that something is bad for them does not really work as a strategy. And that was proven with anti-smoking campaigns. This is your brain on drugs. if you're old enough to remember. Yeah, exactly. Right. Shared experience. That was during the commercial break. It was a Friday.

20:28Angela Santomero:I got a Pam. We got to give an oldie locks alert for that one. Back in my day. It did not stop anyone from doing drugs, by the way.

20:36Catherine Price:Exactly. Or just saying you're going to get lung cancer, which may be, you know, well be true. First of all, cigarettes doesn't really do that much to teenagers. And I distinctly remember having a conversation with a psychologist at a conference I went to once who was talking about that. And he was saying exactly what you just said. He said that the campaigns that were effective were the ones that instead said, they're trying to pull a fast one on you. They think you're dumb enough to believe that smoking is cool. Like you're believing a camel, like look at what is actually happening and kind of pull back the curtain so you can see what's actually going on.

21:05Catherine Price:And that's exactly what's happening with big tech and all of us. I mean, they are telling us one thing that you're going to become more connected to your friends, you're going to have more fun. all this. But that's not at all what's happening. And they're also just making money off of us. They are preying on us. And they think that we are dumb enough in many cases, I guess we are to believe that worked on me when I was a kid.

21:24Angela Santomero:But what can I say? Yes.

21:26Catherine Price:Yeah. And so I think so to explain that part of the book, we have five secrets that the tech wizards don't want kids or honestly anyone to know. And we start that section by talking about how you might think it'd be really fun to be the child of a tech wizard, you know, the leader of one of these companies because you'd get all of the technology first. Like you would be on these apps all the time. You wouldn't be having fights with your parents about screen time. They made these apps. But the reality is the exact opposite. Many of these leaders from the companies don't allow their own children to use the apps and the devices that they're creating.

21:56Catherine Price:Even Steve Jobs didn't let his kids have iPads. And then we walked through five secrets that the tech wizards don't want kids to know. All of which, again, it's just true. So it's basically like they're selling your attention. There's a huge opportunity cost. They're actually rewiring your brain. They are hacking your brain. So they're tricking you into spending time on their products. They know that their products are bad for kids, and they're doing that anyway. And that's exactly what happened with big tobacco. So there's plenty of parallels between those two industries. And I will say that the feedback we've gotten from kids so far, nearly uniformly, if I ask, what part of the book stood out to you, or what surprised you or stuck with you the most?

22:32Catherine Price:Kids say the part about how the leaders of the tech company don't let their own kids use these products. It's been very interesting how uniform that is. But anyway, the kids do not like that. They are so sensitive to hypocrisy. And that's so hypocritical. And they immediately get it. And then they're like, what? And then going to your point, a lot of parents who've left reviews about the book have said, and this just thrills me, they say, we feel like we're on the same side now. We're on the same side as our kids. It's no longer a fight between us. It's us versus the tech companies. And I truly think that's what should be happening.

23:02Catherine Price:It should be us versus the tech companies. And that's been a really amazing piece of feedback we've gotten so far.

23:08Heidi Rose:I'm seeing that come into play with my own kids who are older, high school and college aged with AI, with AI being presented as like, it's the better version of everything to being like, you're showing me AI. So for example, I am definitely much better than say like my mom at noticing like that's AI. Well, how can you tell like, just look, here's some clues how you can tell six fingers, right? Or during the Super Bowl, you know, there's this I'm like, why are they using AI? And my husband's like, how do you know it's AI? I'm like, just look at it, you can tell. But then my kids are much more savvy at hearing it than I am.

23:42Heidi Rose:I sent them a YouTube episode, and then I started to listen to it. And it was about 10 minutes in before I'm like, this might be AI. And my two college age kids were like, duh, yes, it's AI, mom. And so they sniff it out sooner. And they're much more discerning about this is a good use. And this is nonsense. Do you see that as like a good thing? I don't know if that's beyond the scope of this book, but is that good that our kids are a better sluice for I'm being given something fake here than their parents are?

24:06Catherine Price:I think it could go either direction. I guess they're less likely to get scammed, which is very good considering what AI is being used for in many cases. At the same time, they're also the first generation to be growing up in a world in which you can have a relationship with computer program, like a big computer code. And plenty of people are doing that, even though they know full well that it's not quote real. And then I would also say, I do worry about the cynicism that this breeds where you start to not trust anything. So that could be a negative consequence. Because I don't know, I recently, I had a thing like, what was it?

24:41Catherine Price:It was a teaser for the book. There was a book trailer that the publisher had made, and they sent it to us for approval. And I listened to it. And I was like, is that AI? Like, is the narrator's voice AI? Because it sounds really fake, and I don't like it. Well, it turns out it wasn't. It was a woman named Elizabeth. And I was like, oh, sorry. You know, so I do worry that it's like we start to just doubt everything because we're worried people are tricking us. And like, what does the world look like if no one trusts anything? So I don't know. AI keeps me up at night. But it's good that they're at least aware.

25:12Heidi Rose:Yeah, at least they're aware.

25:13Catherine Price:They're more discerning. And I'm glad that young people are not just accepting these promises about AI. They're actually questioning it in a way that I don't think we did with social media. I think we let social media just come in and we believed the promises in a way that is not happening as much with AI. So that's heartening.

25:30Angela Santomero:That's what I see. And I did also watching the Super Bowl with my kids. There were so many ads for AI companies and I was watching with tweens and teens and they were booing the ads. I mean, it's interesting. They seem very aware that AI is a big tech wizard trick that they're too smart to fall for. And in reading the book, I kept thinking, is there a parallel to like the way they're responding to AI? And I think this book is trying to get at the younger kids to have that same reaction to the tech companies. I don't know if AI is scarier or bigger, but there's something about AI that is making young people like AI is for losers in a way that did not happen with social media.

26:20Angela Santomero:And I don't know what that dot connection is, but I think it's kind of fascinating.

26:24Catherine Price:It is really fascinating. I hadn't really thought about that before, but I do think you're right. And maybe that I'm always trying to find things that are heartening instead of depressing or anxiety.

26:33Angela Santomero:I do think it's heartening.

26:34Catherine Price:And maybe it shows like a cultural shift where there actually has been a shift, I think even in the past couple of years, like pretty recently, where these companies have gone from seeming like overall, you know, people believing the idea that they are intending to be forces for good. But now being like, wait a second, no, like, I inherently don't trust you. You're just trying to make money off of me. This skepticism that's actually crept in. And that's actually very heartening to think that young people, I think the trick is when young people start thinking something is not cool, then it's like dead, you know, it's done.

27:03Catherine Price:Sorry, Mark Zuckerberg.

27:04Angela Santomero:Like if that's what I'm hoping for AI. And it's interesting.

27:07Catherine Price:It's like what happened to Facebook. Like only old people use Facebook. No young person would be caught dead on Facebook. So if that's their attitude towards a lot of these AI things, like they are miles ahead of where the rest of us were when social media started to become popular.

27:19Angela Santomero:I think that's right. And I used to write children's television and it was interesting because sometimes executives would be like, who cares? It's just kids, you know, like who cares if there's a dinosaur and a dog together and smart children's writers know that kids are 20 times better than like the most intense Game of Thrones fan at being like that doesn't make sense. They're actually very perceptive of things. So I think that this approach with the book is really smart to say like, let me point this out to you because I think sometimes we do put too much on moms because it's like kids can understand this.

27:59Angela Santomero:And it's like kids can definitely understand this. Like if you do something wrong in the world of bluey, you're going to have a rebellion on your hands. And I think that the idea, I'm hoping that that AI thing is a little bit of a canary in the coal mine for kids being more like, this is not good.

28:18Catherine Price:Yeah, I hope so. I think it's very tricky because at the same time, then you have the AI companies trying to get into the classrooms.

28:25Heidi Rose:And then, yeah, I mean, it's a

28:26Catherine Price:whole tangential conversation, but that really does bother me of like, I truly do believe we need to help our kids learn to think as humans first before just outsourcing our brains to have computer code do it for us. I mean, there's a way in which to use AI as a tool, but that's not what's happening.

28:41Angela Santomero:We digress, but yeah.

28:43Heidi Rose:We're definitely co-signed thumbs down on AI. Okay. We're talking to Catherine Price. Her new book is The Amazing Generation, Your Guide to Fun and Freedom in a Screen-Filled World. We'll be right back. You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it?

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29:20Heidi Rose:Head to your DSW store or DSW.com today.

29:24Catherine Price:DSW, let us surprise you.

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30:07Catherine Price:Well, I love that the structure of your show parallels the structure that we used in the book.

30:11Angela Santomero:It really does. Problem, nightmare, solution. Exactly.

30:17Catherine Price:So after we reveal these secrets to kids that the tech companies don't want them to know, the biggest of which, by the way, is that the tech companies need kids more than kids need big tech, which again, is true, because if they didn't have, in their own words, a pipeline of young users, their businesses would collapse. There's so many parallels between big tech and big tobacco is really astonishing. But anyway, the last third of the book is our invitation to readers to join the growing youth rebellion of young people who are choosing to stand up and pick a different path. So the whole last third of The Amazing Generation is called How to Be a Rebel.

30:52Catherine Price:And it gives kids a step-by-step plan for how you can actually fill your life with more what we call real friendship, real freedom, and real fun, as opposed to the fake stuff that exists on screens. And so we basically walk them through these two principles, which we call the rebel's code. Because when we were researching the book, we realized there truly is a small but growing group of young rebels who are living differently. And when we tried to distill their philosophy and their approach to life into two principles, it was basically use technology as a tool, but don't let it use you. So that's the first part of the rebels code, and then fill your life with more real friendship, real freedom and real fun.

31:34Catherine Price:And so that's what the whole last third of the book is about. It's about practical strategies to do those two things.

31:39Angela Santomero:And throughout the book, you feature actual young people, kids, who you highlight as rebels. And give us an example of one or two of the people you highlight and why you chose them to inspire kids in this book.

31:54Catherine Price:Yes. So John and I realized pretty early on that we're old, especially compared to our readers, and try that we might to be cool in our own lives that it's not going to be the impression that young readers take. So we actually wrote ourselves entirely out of the book. It's a fool's game, people trying to appear cool to the young. Exactly. So there's some draft I remember where we had like, who are we? And then it was like, no one cares. Get us out of it. So we're totally out of it. But what we did do, so we wanted to get young voices into the book, young voices of people who were slightly older than our target readership.

32:26Catherine Price:So 15 years old on to like 26 or so. And so we did that in two ways. One was to collect a lot of anecdotes from young people who grew up with social media and smartphones and video games and now harbor regrets about their experiences and want to change their own approach to life. And they also want to give advice to the younger generation so that they can avoid what happened to them. So we have lots of little anecdotes featured as quote bubbles sprinkled throughout the book. So it's kind of like, don't take our word for it. You know, here's actual another kid or another young person saying that they're grateful they didn't have social media or they wish that they hadn't had it.

33:01Catherine Price:Or this is what the effect that spending so much time on screens had on me. But we also wanted to feature straight up positive stories of a handful of young people who really are living this rebellious life. So we have six profiles sprinkled throughout the book called Meet a Rebel. And we basically did interviews and then put photographs of them in the book. And just to give you an example of one young person we featured, Sean Killingsworth is this young man. He's probably 23 now. He lives in Florida. He started something called the Reconnect Movement, which is a network of clubs on college campuses where students get together to spend time together off of their phones.

33:37Catherine Price:And sometimes they just hang out. It doesn't take much, but they go for hikes. They play games. They just do stuff without their phones. And Sean has a really interesting backstory where he was pretty depressed as a teenager. He had been homeschooled for much of his childhood. Then he went to a traditional school, but everybody was on their phone. So he tells his whole story about how difficult it was to integrate with a group of young people who all were spending all their time on phones. He had a smartphone for a while. He didn't like it. But he told me this story about how he kind of got to know this group of guys who skateboarded.

34:10Catherine Price:Sean is an amazing skateboarder. and at first they all were doing all of their correspondence on snapchat but sean was like i don't want to use snapchat a i just don't want to but b it's really inefficient and not very fun to have a four-hour drawn-out conversation on snapchat so he just insisted on calling and he rebelled by just being like if you want to talk to me and he was happened to be an excellent skateboarder he's like you got to call me and now his entire group of friends they call each other instead of using snapchat so he was an example of someone we featured both as the leader of a youth organization but also as someone who's just living this in his own life.

34:43Catherine Price:Because we didn't want the rebels to all be people who started organizations. There's many ways to be a rebel without having to do something as dramatic or formal as start an organization. You can just choose to be a bit different. So that was very important to us as we wrote the book. And I think the biggest challenge, honestly, when writing it was to figure out a way to get kids to consider the idea that they might not want to get a smartphone or social media account until they're older. So one of our goals was to encourage kids to consider not getting smartphones or social media accounts until they're older, if at all, in the case of social media.

35:18Catherine Price:And that was a real challenge. You know, how are you possibly going to convince kids to do that? And so we really, again, kind of leaned into the idea of if you know the truth, you might make a different choice. And so we talk a lot in the secrets of the tech wizards about how the wizards are actually the companies are trying to take control of your brain because they are. Hacking your brain. Yeah. Hack your brain on a subconscious level into using your brain's dopamine system into spending way more time than you would ever want to on their products. You can see this happening with your parents, with older siblings, everybody around you.

35:49Catherine Price:And if you allow them to do that, they're actually going to change your brain. So we have a secret about how the tech wizards are rewiring your brain because our brains respond to our habits. Anything we do habitually is actually going to lead to long-lasting changes in our brain. And what we say to our readers in this book is that there's a period of life in which your brain goes through the biggest changes when it comes to forming your adult brain. There's two. One is when you're a baby and your brain is growing. But in your early adolescence, so when you're exactly at the age at which our readers are, your brain is pruning.

36:23Catherine Price:It's deciding what connections to keep and what to get rid of. And those decisions, quote unquote, are going to stay with you for the rest of your life because you will have the rough outline of the brain you're going to have for the rest of your life. So if you don't want to have a brain that's controlled by a tech company, then you have to be really careful about what you do during this time in your life. And we talk about how, on the one hand, it's a really exciting period of life to be in because you kind of get to choose to some degree what kind of brain you want to have. And then you can adjust your habits to support that.

36:53Catherine Price:If you want to be able to focus and concentrate, well, then read a lot of books. If you want to be good at music when you're older, then spend some time playing music when you're a young teenager. But on the other hand, it's really a period of intense vulnerability because the fact that your brain is changing so rapidly and it's in response to habits and what you pay attention to, it means you're really vulnerable to a company that wants to hijack your brain and develop it in ways that don't help you, that just help the company. And so we set up that framework, which again, it's like, it is true.

37:20Catherine Price:And we say that means that you do have the power to protect your own brain. Like if you don't want the tech companies to control your brain, the most effective way to do that is to not use their products, to not give them access to your brain. And so we basically put out that idea that for a lot of these young rebels, what they do is they decide that they're going to protect their own brains by just not using smartphones, using basic phones instead, and just calling their friends instead of using social media, or not getting on social media at all because they know that getting a social media account is like handing the tech companies the keys to your brain.

37:52Catherine Price:And it's been very interesting to hear feedback from real readers because it seems to really be resonating with them. I think that kids, when they recognize, wait a second, like I have one brain, this is the time at which it's changing the most dramatically. And I have a little bit of control over that. Like, I don't want to let a company into my brain. That's crazy. And so there's actually been a number of people, parents who have commented on how their kids read the book and then actually said, you know, I've thought about it. And I think that when I get a phone, I just want one that calls and texts, or I actually don't think I want to be on social media anymore.

38:22Catherine Price:And that's incredibly exciting, you know, as a parent to hear that response. But I think it's because we present it as, I don't know, in terms of what's really happening, in terms of your brain development, I can come back to like, we're telling the truth. What a concept. Who knew?

38:34Angela Santomero:Telling the truth is effective, guys. Also something that you said that I had highlighted in the book, and I think even for my older kids who are digital natives and they are in it they've got the phones they've got the apps i like because i think that a lot of the advice which is useful and good about like put your phones away at this time of night we do that in our house grayscale and it'll be less exciting all of the like kind of tips and tricks that i think a lot of us have heard by now that this line Pay attention to what you are paying attention to. Having discussions, this book is aimed at younger kids and maybe not starting, but even with older kids.

39:15Angela Santomero:I noticed you haven't been practicing guitar this week. You love guitar, but what are you doing instead? You're telling me that. I was like, I did play piano. Catherine, I have a camera in your house. We've brought you here to tell you. This is an intervention. I have no thoughts at all, Catherine, on your guitar habits. But in talking to one of my children, I said, you haven't been practicing guitar. What's filling that time? Let's think about why we're not playing guitar. And maybe it's that you could be on the phone for an hour when you get home and then have an hour of guitar and then have two hours of homework.

39:52Angela Santomero:And then we'll have family dinner where there are no phones allowed. And then you can have your phone again for an hour before bed or whatever it is. Like, let's pay attention to what we're paying attention to for our teens, for ourselves, because it seems to me the conversation has gone beyond put your phone in gray mode and it won't be as exciting. Like, it's just as exciting. We're finding out maybe or at least it's, you know, it's still a little bit too exciting. Right. Yeah.

40:20Heidi Rose:Right.

40:20Catherine Price:Or you just don't keep it on black and white. You know, I'm smiling because on the desk in front of me, I have a bracelet I had made for myself after I wrote How to Break Up With Your Phone that says pay attention on it. I took it off because it was going to jangle while I was talking. But when I wrote How to Break Up With Your Phone, my biggest personal insight from that book is that our lives are what we pay attention to. You know, ultimately, I mean, that's just kind of a rephrasing of William James in The Principles of Psychology from 1890. But he talks about how our lives are what we attend to.

40:48Catherine Price:but basically we only experience the things we're paying attention to and we only remember the things we pay attention to we're only going to develop the skills we pay attention to and so for me personally what i came away with is that that means that anytime i make a decision in the moment about how i'm spending my attention what i'm paying attention to same verbs we use to talk about money i'm making a bigger decision about how i want to live my life so i think that you've really just honed in on what i think is fundamentally the most important message or the the most important thing for all of us to think about, which is that we've got one life and you've got a limited amount of time and attention.

41:19Catherine Price:And these are products that are designed to steal that from us. But what do you want to pay attention to? Because if you don't know what you want to pay attention to, these companies will make that decision for you. And it's not going to be encouraging you to practice guitar.

41:32Heidi Rose:Yes, it's not. Catherine Price's latest book is The Amazing Generation, your guide to fun and freedom in a screen-filled world. I also really enjoyed How to Break Up With Your Phone, by the way, so we're going to put links to Catherine's books on Bookshop in the show notes for this episode. Catherine, tell our listeners where else they can find you and your work. Well, thank you so much for having me.

41:53Catherine Price:And yes, your listeners can find more resources and more about my books and courses at CatherinePrice.com with a C. And I write a Substack newsletter, as you mentioned, called How to Feel Alive. And that is CatherinePrice.substack.com. And then if you would like more resources on The Amazing Generation in particular, it's AmazingGeneration.com. And we have educators, guides, and community reads guides and adult caregiver discussion guides and a free preview. So I hope that your listeners will check some of those out.

42:20Angela Santomero:And I want to underline just before we close that the book is extremely lively. It's cartoons, it's animations. So we've been talking about it from a 30 ,000 foot view, but check out the website and you'll get a sense of like, the book is very much designed for kids. It's very accessible for kids, amazing illustrations and animations in the book. Is it animations? If it's still, I don't know. Whatever I'm trying to say.

42:46Catherine Price:Nothing moves on the page. Do not get excited.

42:49Angela Santomero:It's not an iBook. It's not social media. It's a book.

42:53Catherine Price:We wanted to make it really visually appealing. And also because we've got a target age range that starts at nine years old. We thought it would end at like 13. We've actually heard from older teens and adults that they're getting stuff out of the book. So I think the top range might go for adults, but starting a nine-year-old. So we have a graphic novel by this amazing illustrator, Cynthia Yuan Cheng, who also did a lot of illustrations throughout the book. and it's full color. I love looking at it personally.

43:14Angela Santomero:It's beautiful. I just wanted to say that because I feel like the way we've been talking about it, people might be picturing like a novel with black and white print. It's very, very vibrant, this book. So go check it out. I really enjoyed it. Perfect for all the young people in your life. And Catherine, thank you for joining us and please go practice guitar. For goodness sakes, Catherine.

43:34Catherine Price:Thank you very much both for the conversation and the gentle encouragement. Thanks, Catherine. Thank you, guys.