Fresh Take: Jamilah Lemieux, BLACK. SINGLE. MOTHER.

17:51Jamilah Lemieux:Yeah, I definitely was holding out hope until then that we would get back together. So this was like me fully accepting like I am going to be a single mother. But I think of it now as a blessing because I think that if they had not gotten married when they did, because they got married when my daughter was four months old, she was there. I think that had they not gotten married, then I might have held out this hope that possibly things are going to work out between us. I think that he was intentional about marrying her so that that didn't happen, either to assure her that he was done with me or to assure himself.

18:29Jamilah Lemieux:And I'm grateful that we did not go back and forth as a couple. There was no on and off. We didn't try it and it didn't work out. There's no period of time where my daughter can say, well, I remember my parents as a couple and now they're not anymore.

18:44Margaret Ables:Yeah, sometimes an answer is a blessing, right? Like you don't have to wonder about the question anymore. So in the sort of middle heart of the book, you wrestle a lot with the stigma around being a Black single mother. You say, social structure within our communities leaves us Black single moms heavily depended on and loathed at the same time. There's kind of what I would describe as an academic portion of the book where you really bring in a lot of writings and history about how Black single motherhood has become so stigmatized in our society. So tell us about this idea of, and it goes with welfare queens and all of these ideas around like the demonization of the Black single mother.

19:34Jamilah Lemieux:Essentially, the Black single mother has been an important part of American society since slavery. Most Black women on plantations were not married. And even if they were allowed to participate in some sort of commitment ceremony with somebody, they very well may have had children by someone else, someone that they were forced to breed with by an enslaver. Oftentimes they were taking care of children who weren't their own, who were on the same plantation that they played a maternal role towards. We've never been credited with this labor. We haven't been widely celebrated for this work. Quite the opposite.

20:13Margaret Ables:Right.

20:13Jamilah Lemieux:Quite the opposite. And I think a big origin point for that is the Moyahan Report. There was the report in 1965, I believe, prepared by Daniel Patrick Moyahan, who was a senator and also a social scientist and he creates this report for President Nixon saying we can give Black people affirmative action. We can give them reparations. We can give them all these things to help them along. And yes, racism has done a number on them, but nothing's going to get better for the Black community. They're not going to rise out of poverty. They're not going to have better employment rates until they address the matriarchal structure of their families.

20:55Jamilah Lemieux:The Black woman has emasculated the Black man. She runs the community. She runs the show to everyone's detriment. And what needs to happen is that Black men need to go in military service to learn discipline and Black women have to stop being heads of households. And there were so many people who accepted this report, including Dr. Martin Luther King, Whitney M. Young, who was the civil rights leader at the time. And at the time, I think Black women only made up 25 % of heads of households with children, right? And it's a lot higher than that today. And there's just been this finger pointing at us as if it's our irresponsibility, you know, it's our inability to be loving, that there's just all these things that are wrong with us.

21:41Jamilah Lemieux:And this is why we're heads of households so often. But that ignores the circumstances that have made it difficult for Black men and women to enter healthy relationships with one another and to be able to take care of households together. And it also disregards the important work that Black women have done. In a lot of ways, single Black women hold the community up like they're taking care of a large percentage of the children. and there are generally people who are helping. You know, most single mothers have somebody, whether it's their mother, their sister, their friends, their other people, generally women playing an important role, but instead we're seen as somehow mothering in isolation in an inappropriate way.

22:27Margaret Ables:Yeah, and somehow also the problem at the end of all of this work. And I really encourage everyone to read this book. One of the things we talk a lot about on the podcast is societal structures that end up pointing the tip of the spear at individuals, women very often. So, for example, societally, we have no social safety net in the United States. And so here comes this huge system that lacks any supports. And it comes down to individual women to caretake for the elderly, to raise children, to figure out what to do when people are sick, and that it is seen as a personal failing of the person at the tip of the spear when they are not able to manage an elderly parent, a sick child, and a spouse who may not be there.

23:23Margaret Ables:And I feel like the studies in this book really made it so clear to me that concept of these systems, which, as you say, go back to slavery in the United States, are now pointed at individual women or Black women as a category and saying they're the problem. Friends, they're the solution. Like, they're actually, they're doing all the work and kind of being told this is all your fault.

23:55Jamilah Lemieux:Absolutely. You know, a book that I read while I was writing this book, Doing It All, The Social Power of Single Motherhood by Ruby Russell. I interviewed her and she talks about how she's a white woman living in the UK as a single mom. and she talked about how like she and other single moms are looking to people who've mastered this for examples and that they're looking to Black women, that they recognize how Black women have mastered single motherhood and have been effective at it. But instead, like you said, we're somehow seen as the problem.

24:30Margaret Ables:We recently talked to Susan Sutton, who's the founder of the Ember Project that focuses on teen single moms. And it struck me this idea that single motherhood is a demonized category. And then you put a qualifier on the front of that black single mom, teen single mom, poor single mom. That qualifier then takes you kind of further outside of what is considered the right or the way it should be. And you capture really well in the book, what if we supported, and Susan made a very similar point, that we need to change the story from demonizing to supporting. Like, these are the people actually doing the work.

25:16Margaret Ables:Why are we busy saying, you did it wrong, everything that happens now, hands off, your problem, your fault, you figure it out. How do we start to move towards supporting Black single moms outside of this system that's telling us, write them off as the problem and move on? I mean, rather a big question. I realize if you had the full answer to that, you would be, you know, you'd be in a different space.

25:44Jamilah Lemieux:Well, I think, you know, I feel like the book is an answer to that. Taking the time to understand Black single mothers' experiences and be empathetic and to recognize the opportunities for support and the necessity of supporting us as opposed to holding us out as this problem. I think that if there are people who want to see less Black single parents, and I think, you know, just kind of considering where we are in a society, I think, first of all, I think single motherhood is only going to be a bigger and bigger conversation, particularly in the Western world because more women are choosing it, right?

26:19Jamilah Lemieux:More white women are choosing it. Women are deciding I don't have to wait until I'm in a happy relationship to have a baby. Hey, I'm 35. I'm 40. I have a career. I can provide for a child. I want to be a mother. Should I wait until possibly I can't do this anymore to meet a man or do I go on and do this on my own? I know we're going to see a lot more of that. So I think for anybody who's truly invested in reducing the number of single mothers has to consider the problem that we're collectively having with men. There are so many men in the dating pool who are not interested or ready in being partners and fathers that are not prepared to adequately care for a woman as a human being, as opposed to, you know, a concept or something to be used and enjoyed and discarded.

27:11Margaret Ables:I want to dig into the topic of fathers and men. We're going to take a break. I'm talking to Jamila Lemieux. She is the author of Black Single Mother, and we'll be right back. For some of us, tax season is one of the only times that we look at our finances fully. And once it's over, well, that was terrible. And it is completely understandable not to want to think about it for another whole year, but using Monarch and being intentional with your finances in an ongoing way helps you see where your money is going and how you can put your refund to best use. We are here to tell you, simplify your finances with Monarch.

27:47Margaret Ables:Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50 % off your Monarch subscription with code FRESH. As you know, my husband and I are preparing to send, yes, three kids off to college. And I cannot tell you how helpful Monarch has been in showing us our full financial picture, helping us to track our spending and reach important savings milestones.

28:25Margaret Ables:Our weekly meeting, Amy, it's now run by Monarch. Love it. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use code FRESH at Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50 % off at Monarch.com, code FRESH. Nutrafol supports hair health from within, working over time to deliver results you can see and feel. So your hair becomes something you enjoy, not something you stress about. Okay, take it from me. Hair loss is normal as you age, but Nutrafol helps. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.

29:11Margaret Ables:You can order Nutrafol online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription, you can save up to 20 % and get added perks to support your hair health journey. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners$10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com promo code laughing.

29:54Margaret Ables:So you wrestle with this idea very vividly in the book about the role of men in this story. And again, as we talk about and critique or society critiques women, single mothers, the idea that men are not part of this story seems kind of inherent to the debate. and the idea that it takes two biologically. Like there is a man somewhere that was involved in producing a child, but that society kind of wants to point to the woman and forget about the man in the situation. And you talk about figuring out how to critique men and Black men in this situation while still calling them into the story. So talk about that.

30:46Jamilah Lemieux:There's so much that can be said critically about men and their relationship to women. You know, you can certainly say a lot about Black men and their relationship to women, but it's not my goal to point a finger at them and say, this is the real enemy. This is the actual bad guy. But since that, call them in and say, we need you to be a bigger part of this process than some of you have been historically. I think Gen X is the first generation, that's the generation before mine, the first generation to have a substantial number of really hands-on dads. I don't mean just as ad that you saw at breakfast and you saw him at dinner and maybe you all went to church together on Sunday.

31:28Jamilah Lemieux:I'm talking about a dad who's changing diapers, helping with homework, getting on the floor to play, doing childcare. That's not something that was normal for American dads for a very long time. I mentioned to my dad that I was going to a baby shower with my boyfriend the other day. And he said, oh, you know, there was a time where men didn't go to baby showers. I said, yeah, there was a time where men weren't hands-on with children. So there was no need for them to be at the baby shower. They wouldn't have been part of the celebration because they weren't going to be diapering. They weren't going to be putting on the cute little outfits.

32:02Jamilah Lemieux:This was a life change primarily for the mother, not for the father. But I think especially of parents that are no longer together. Studies have shown that children that are raised in two households somewhat equitably with both parents sharing childcare and financial duties and labor, those kids have outcomes comparable to children that were raised in two-parent households. And for so many years, the default arrangement for a divorced couple would be that the father would have the children every other weekend. And I always say like, if you only worked every other weekend, your friends would probably say you didn't have a job.

32:45Jamilah Lemieux:You know, if you were in a relationship with somebody and you only saw them every other weekend, you would probably complain about that or feel that you didn't have enough time together. So how is four days out of the month enough time to actively raise someone? And that's not to shame people for choosing that agreement because that has been so often what was suggested as appropriate. I think of my own mom who would have shut down even every other weekend. You know, like there's so many mothers who feel that like they have to be with their children seven days a week or they're not effectively mothering.

33:19Jamilah Lemieux:They're not effectively parenting. And that's simply not true. I think we need to shift to a place in which fathers who do not have primary visible custody of their children are allowed. And there's no reason behind that because sometimes there's a reason mom has primary custody. But if there's no reason for that, if this person is capable and competent and willing, then he should be hands-on too. I say, dad, do you need to see your kid when they wake up for school in the morning? Like you getting them up on a Saturday and taking them to IHOP is not the same as getting them up at 6.30 on a Wednesday and getting them clothed and getting them fed and getting them out to school and making sure they do their homework and go to bed on time.

34:04Jamilah Lemieux:You know, that's the real tough work of parenting.

34:07Margaret Ables:You really captured this for me in a way that was like my aha moment with the book is the idea that this book is strongly from a feminist perspective. But within that perspective, the idea is men accessing fatherhood is feminist. My father tells a story. He was an Irish immigrant from like a very men do this, women do this kind of generation. And even he was laughing at this, but the idea, he had a friend whose wife was so sick, he had to hold her up to change the diapers. That's how sick she was. Wow. Right? And this is probably 75 years ago. But I feel like sometimes the feminist ideal is like women can do everything by themselves.

34:55Margaret Ables:But your feminist perspective of actually the more men are involved in the fabric of their children's lives, the better it is for the whole, whether or not they're married or not. And I found that to be really revelatory. like allowing men to step into a role that might have threatened manhood in former generations. Like I remember when my dad saw my husband and brother-in-law wearing babies, it was like a little facial expression like, huh, okay, he clocked it. He wasn't going to say anything about it, but I could tell that he was like, hmm, not in my day would I be wearing a baby around, But making space for men to be fathers is somehow a huge part of this story.

35:48Jamilah Lemieux:Absolutely. I mean, this idea, and it hasn't been something that all communities have been able to access at times, but this idea of the father being hands-off was connected to the fact that he worked outside the home and the mom only worked inside the home. Today, most parents are, both of them are working. So the idea that only one working parent should be the one doing all the childcare just doesn't make sense. And it makes even less sense when those two people are not in the same home. But I often think about the number of married single mothers. I think there'll be a lot of married women who read this book and realize that I have a way more equitable, livable situation than they do as a single mother.

36:35Margaret Ables:Yeah. And that support and also that alone time, like you're right, that struck me as well, that the idea that teaching or modeling for men, the idea that involvement with their children in this very fabric way that you talk about, like seeing the pajamas and making breakfast because the moments that happen, and I've had this conversation with my own husband, are just being present because I could definitely remember friends of mine growing up and they had, you know, the McDonald's awkward meal with their dad and then stayed over in a weird apartment for one night and then came back to their real lives.

37:17Margaret Ables:Talk about that in terms of your idea that 50-50 custody with parents is far superior to every other weekend.

37:26Jamilah Lemieux:There's a book I love called the 50-50 solution, the surprisingly simple choice that makes moms, dads, and kids happier and healthier after a split by Emma Johnson. I cite her in the book and I already felt good about what we were doing and the few other families that I've known that have had a similar situation. You know, I've seen how well it worked. But when I read this book and she's like, yeah, the data shows that like, this is the best path for kids whose parents are not together. If both parents are capable of doing this. I just, I want to see more families take this on. And I think that again, for mothers, it's letting go of this idea that I have to be the only parent.

38:09Jamilah Lemieux:I have to be the main parent. When my daughter was little, she spent two days a week with her dad and five days a week with me. And over time, two became three quite often. If I had to travel for work or if I had a speaking engagement, it could be three, it could be four. And we relocated, both households relocated from New York to California about six and a half years ago. And when we were preparing to do that, her dad said to me, hey, could we just do a 50-50 thing? And we've never been to court. There's never been any mediation or anything like that. We've always worked things out between us.

38:45Jamilah Lemieux:And I had been scared of that for years. I was always afraid that he would ask for 50-50. At one point, I was receiving child support and I was afraid of losing that. But the bigger thing was, I thought it would make me less of a mom. And my old mom, she did not understand that at all. She called me a weekend mom once. Because there was a time where, because originally our 50-50 was three days with him, four days with me. And there was a time where my daughter and I were having some challenges with getting her out of the door for school on time. It was going to be a big thing. and she didn't have that issue with her dad.

39:22Jamilah Lemieux:They could always get her out the door. And so her dad says, what if she did four days with me and three days with you? So there was a period of time where he was, on a weekly basis, having more time with her than I was. And I remember my mom, I was like, I told my mom, I was like, well, I have her three days of the week. And my mom was like, what are they, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday? And I wanted to say, no, I would never pick Friday and Saturday and Sunday as my days because I have a life of my own. you know but um she's adjusted and you know we have a great thing that works my daughter tends to if there's somebody she wants to pick an extra day with it's usually me but we kind of alternate three days here four days there also my daughter moves around which most people with joint custody that I've talked to don't quite have the same like there's a mother I interview in the book and they did it one week with one parent one week with the other parent we do Sunday Monday Thursday with me every week and generally three days with her dad every week.

40:26Jamilah Lemieux:And then we alternate that fourth day, which right now is Tuesdays, but it works. And I've asked my daughter, would you rather have consecutive days? Would you rather spend half the week here and half the week there? And she's like, no, because I don't really miss either of you all very much because I'm constantly seeing you. Yeah.

40:45Margaret Ables:To me, the takeaway for every mom listening to this podcast with this book, whether or not you are a Black single mom yourself, is that you, Jamila, reckon with society, your family, every story that has come before. And that process of reckoning leads you in the book to say, what do I want my life and my family to look like? And making that happen throughout the story of the book, in spite of all of the voices around you, is a lesson for every woman. So I really cannot recommend this book more highly. It is Jamila Lemieux's Black Single Mother. Jamila, tell everyone, I mean, it's 2026. People know how to buy a book, basically, but tell them where to find the book, where they can find more of your writing and more about you.

41:44Jamilah Lemieux:The book is available where books are sold, all the major retailers that I don't want to shout out. But I also kind of want you to leave me a review on one of those major retailers websites. You know, that's the trick.

41:55Margaret Ables:You buy it on Bookshop and you leave a review on the major ones.

41:59Jamilah Lemieux:Yes, you can buy it from a number of sellers on Bookshop.org. We will have a link right in the show notes where you can buy it. Thank you. There's a number of indie booksellers that have it available, including a few that are on bookshop.org. My website is jamilalemue.com. I do not update it as much as I should, but I'm going to work on that. I'm active on Threads and Instagram at jamilalemue, and I am on book tour. so far I've got stops in New York Philadelphia Miami Atlanta and we're going to be doing Chicago and DC for sure too and hopefully some other places and uh those dates are available on your website I will get the dates on my website but they're um if you google Jamila me book tour date It's on the Penguin Random House page for my book as well.

42:53Jamilah Lemieux:But I do have all my book tour dates posted on my social media, on my Instagram.

42:59Margaret Ables:Perfect. Jamila, thank you for this book. And thanks so much for talking to me today. Thank you for having me.