In short
Dr. Jean Twenge discusses her research linking smartphone/social media/gaming use (especially around 2012) to rising teen loneliness and depression, and outlines “10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World” focused on practical limits, sleep protection, and reducing algorithm-driven harm.
Guest backgrounds
Dr. Jean M. Twenge is a psychology professor at San Diego State University, mother of three daughters, and author of Generations, iGen, Generation Me, and 190+ scientific publications.
Key claims
Teen mental health declines align with the smartphone/social-media era; 6-in-10 teens (11–17) use phones between midnight–5 a.m. on school nights; algorithms “serve more of what you linger on,” including disturbing/inappropriate content and anger/polarization; parental “just tell them” fixes are unfair because platforms are engineered for engagement.
Notable examples
TikTok/Instagram Reels rabbit holes; Snapstreaks (kids say they don’t actually like them); New York cell-phone bans improving bell-to-bell engagement; Australia raising social media minimum age to 16.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Impact of Technology on Teen Mental Health
1:01 to 3:24
Explore how smartphones and social media are affecting teen mental health.
“How Parents Can Stop Smartphones, Social Media, and Gaming from Taking Over Their Children's Lives.”
Understanding Teen Behavior and Technology Addiction
3:24 to 6:01
Discuss the addictive nature of technology and its impact on teen interactions.
“And there's still, you know, a few people who want to deny it because that's just how things work.”
Establishing Rules for Technology Use
6:01 to 7:12
Learn practical rules to help manage children's technology use.
“and let's start with the rule that people are like, I can't take 10 rules.”
Navigating School Policies on Phones
7:12 to 12:40
Discuss the positive effects of school policies on phone use among students.
“table, no phones in your bedroom overnight.”
The Importance of Mindful Technology Use
13:25 to 14:27
Explore mindful approaches to technology in daily life.
“and thanks to Nutrafol, I do not have to worry about grabbing my husband's phone to immediately delete most of the photos because my hair is going to be on point.”
The Importance of Mindful Technology Use
14:47 to 15:48
Explore mindful approaches to technology in daily life.
“Oh, that's why we are so in love with Quince.”
The Importance of Mindful Technology Use
15:55 to 16:05
Explore mindful approaches to technology in daily life.
“That's Q-U-I-N-C-E, Quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 day returns.”
Understanding Social Media Algorithms
16:09 to 17:46
Learn about how social media algorithms shape adolescent experiences online.
“We don't know what our kids are being directed and sent down.”
The Impact of Algorithmic Content
17:46 to 20:46
Explore how algorithmic content can create dangerous bubbles for kids.
“Sometimes, you know, other people talking about their depression or self-harm or suicidal thoughts.”
Gaming and Social Interaction for Neurodiverse Kids
20:46 to 24:24
Discuss the benefits and challenges of gaming for neurodiverse children.
“Let me ask you about kids who struggle socially, who find gaming and online friends much easier to access because I have a kid like that.”
Show all 15 chapters
Setting Parental Controls and Managing Screen Time
24:24 to 27:09
Get insights on effective parental control strategies for gaming.
“But now they've given you iPads at school.”
Navigating Educational Technology Challenges
27:09 to 28:00
Understand how technology in schools complicates parental controls.
“But then if they watch that video and then they're watching the next video and the next video, then they're not doing their homework.”
The Challenges Parents Face with Tech Regulation
28:00 to 29:30
Discussing the difficulties parents encounter due to tech companies and regulations.
“That that seems completely unfair to me.”
Social Media Rules for Kids
30:42 to 37:18
Exploring guidelines for parents about social media use among children.
“That's code fresh at O-S-E-A Malibu dot com.”
Navigating Technology and Parenting
37:18 to 41:00
Dr. Jean Twenge shares personal experiences and insights regarding tech and parenting.
“So for one thing, I just got to say this from the outset, it is a total myth that teens have to have social media to be able to communicate with their friends.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Monday AI agents took over my work, and I absolutely love it. Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. They live inside Monday.com, so they see the full picture. My work, my team, the whole company. And I don't have to worry about the data. It's safe, which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff, knowing everything runs smoothly in the background. It's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday.com.
0:31Amy Wilson:Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take from What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're talking to Dr. Jean M. Twenge. She is a professor of psychology at San Diego State University. She's the mother of three daughters and the author of more than 190 scientific publications and several books based on her research, including Generations, iGen, Generation Me, and her latest book, which we will be discussing today, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World, How Parents Can Stop Smartphones, Social Media, and Gaming from Taking Over Their Children's Lives.
1:10Welcome, Jean. Thanks so much.
1:12Amy Wilson:That sounds like something we want to talk about and our audience wants to hear about. That's right. I wanted to go back all the way to 2017, which is when I first became aware of your work. It went viral. You studied generational differences. Tell us about the revelation that you had in 2017 and then what happened when you wrote about it. It was actually a couple of years before that because, you know, this is my job to analyze generational differences. So I keep an eye on the big national surveys of teens. And there's, you know, like a two-year delay in the data coming out. So with the data from 2012 and then 2013, I started to see these patterns that there was these sudden increases in teens saying that they were lonely, that they felt left out, that they felt like they couldn't do anything right.
1:55that their life wasn't useful. And those two are classic symptoms of depression. And then over those years, more and more it came out, well, actually clinical level depression is going up. And that, of course, begged the question of why. And it was completely misaligned with economic cycles. It was tough to think of anything else that happened around 2012 that might be one big event that kept going in the same direction that had a big effect on teens' day-to-day lives. And then I realized when I was reading a poll one day, well, the end of 2012 was the first time that the majority of Americans owned smartphones.
2:28I also knew from the survey data I'd been working with, that's also when social media use became really common among teens. So then it kind of fell into place because teens were spending a lot more time on social media and with their phones and online. And elsewhere in these surveys also figured out they're spending less time sleeping and less time with their friends face-to-face in person. You put those three together, that is a pretty poor formula for mental health. And it's something that affected them, teens, every day, and almost all teens around the country. So it made sense that that might be why depression and loneliness are going up.
3:04So you wrote about it, and everybody read it. It was one of those articles everybody sent to everybody. It was in The Atlantic. And at the time, some people dismissed it as alarmist or couldn't be the only explanation or correlation does not equal causation, et cetera, et cetera. I feel like people aren't really saying that now, that eight years later, everybody's like, an iPod is the phones. Yeah. And there's still, you know, a few people who want to deny it because that's just how things work. But pretty much everybody who has teen kids has seen this and has seen the effects of these technologies, which, you know, smartphones are not all bad.
3:40It's just if you're on it for 10 hours a day, then you start to see some negative consequences. And that's what we have definitely seen.
3:46Amy Wilson:And I feel like just in looking around my own house and I'm pointing at me as much as my teens, the default of phone use is so pervasive that a certain point the phones just come out. We had a dinner for a bunch of kids and by the end, everybody's staring at their phones. It's just kind of this hole that pulls kids back into it, even though they're in a yard with like plenty of things to do. They are, I will say, to some degree, interacting because they're showing each other what they're looking at. but it's not the same as throwing a baseball around. Yeah. And it's become the default. And have you ever noticed that once one person takes out the phone, then the other does and it's this snowball effect.
4:26Yes. And that was the other thing that got me thinking with the effect on teens is, you know, probably the worst part of it is that they're alone in their rooms on a screen a lot more. But also just as you're describing that even when they are together in person, the phone interferes with that.
4:42Amy Wilson:Oh, yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many rooms of teens I've walked into and it's six of them sitting in a circle, but everybody's on their phone. They're kind of together, not together in this funny way. You before said something about you spend 10 hours a day on your phone and probably some people listening are like, well, that's just some funny exaggeration. Right. That's hyperbole. But I couldn't believe some of the numbers you said it in this book that kids are spending six, seven, eight hours a day. As you said, it's a full-time job on their phones. And how does that play out in the generational differences that you study?
5:17It makes us less happy, but how else does it play out? Well, I think it's definitely behind the increase in sleep deprivation among teens that we see in these surveys. Because it's just too tempting to be on the phone late at night, to look at it right before you go to bed, and then not sleep well, to look at it in the middle of the night, and then not sleep then. So that was one of the statistics that probably stunned me the most was the Common Sense Media study finding that the majority of 11 to 17-year-olds, when they tracked their phones and not even self-report, that they had used their phones between midnight and 5 a.m.
5:52on school nights. Six out of 10 of 11 to 17-year-olds. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. Crazy. Not a surprise. Yeah. So I guess that kind of takes us to the 10 rules. They're in the book. and let's start with the rule that people are like, I can't take 10 rules. Give me one rule. What's the one rule that you suggest that parents start with? No electronic devices in the bedroom overnight. So after lights out, preferably within a half hour or so of bedtime, but to get the phone out of the bedroom at night. And that's for all ages. It's not just for your kids. If you can do that as a parent, you'll sleep better too.
6:27So there's a bunch of studies showing even having the phone there, even if you don't look at it, even if it's off the physical presence of the phone you don't sleep as well we just are starting a school year
6:38Amy Wilson:where they've instituted a cell phone ban in new york yay and yay i agree rule 10 is to advocate for smartphone fans that's right yes not hearing yay from our children but we are saying yay as the parents spaces and places make discipline easier that like we don't ever use our phone in the car. We never use our phone at the dinner table because what I find, and I have three teenagers now, that the kind of constant turn off your phone, turn off your phone, turn off your phone, turn off your phone, that it's much easier to say no phones in the car, no phones at the table, no phones in your bedroom overnight.
7:15Then you say it once, you have one rule instead of having to negotiate it every five minutes.
7:20Amy Wilson:That's right. And I see, and my kids are outraged by this rule. And I've been trying to explain it to them from the school's point of view that they don't want to be fighting this all day. And that the distraction of knowing it's in your bag and buzzing, you could hear it buzzing. Yes, exactly. You're now out of the lesson. You're wondering, even if you're not picking up the phone, like, was it my mom? Was it the girl I have a crush on? It's so much more exciting than my history lesson right now. And I really see a change. I mean, we've only been back to school for a month and I've already seen a huge change.
7:57Yeah.
7:57Amy Wilson:So what difference have you noticed? I don't see it so much at school because I'm not with them. But from what I hear from my teacher friends, the fraughtness of it is just so much easier. The kids are complaining about it. But because it's a rule, Amy has a thing she says all the time. Well, the lady says it's time to leave the park, you know, when the alarm goes off. somehow we put this on a third party the governor won't let us do no matter how much we'd love to have our phones that's great government is not letting it but it feels like it's taken a lot of the pressure off of the teachers yeah and at back to school night they were telling us that they see the kids much more engaged with each other and talking to each other during breaks Because the problem was that they're using phones basically between classes.
8:50Amy Wilson:They were grabbing their phones out. And in the three minutes, every single kid in the hallway is looking at it. People are having conversations and might even be discussing like, oh, did you know that thing about history that we were just learning about? And that's a huge positive that I wouldn't have even thought about. Yeah, exactly. And that's why it has to be bell to bell. Same thing for lunch, that then they're talking to each other face to face at lunch instead of being on their phones. And I think the teenagers, yeah, they're going to complain, but they're going to get used to it. So where it's going to be easier is the kids in like fifth grade, sixth grade, where they're just not going to know any other way.
9:28Probably, I'm sure it's hardest for the 12th graders and the 11th graders. My kids have had it. It's a second year for them. Actually, I have two high school graduates. So it's been in place for a couple of years at their high school. second year for my daughter and I haven't heard as much complaining and I thought one of the most interesting things that you talk about in the book is that my daughter's reaction was sort of like I know like I know we got to get rid of them it's too much yeah and you quote a study where kids are asked I believe it was agree or disagree with different statements and it was like I wish Instagram never existed or didn't exist and a shockingly high amount of teenagers said yes Yeah, I think that may have actually even been young adults instead of teenagers, but same principle.
10:12Or like Snapstreak. Would you rather there not be Snapstreak? Oh, yeah. That one is teens. Even middle school students. Yeah. I heard that a while ago from someone who gave talks at middle schools a lot. He was associated with the Center for Humane Technology, which is run by Tristan Harris. And he said, yeah, I go to middle schools all the time. I say, how many of you have Snapstreaks? And almost everybody raises their hand. How many of you really like Snapstreaks? and all the hands would go down. It's an addict's narrative. So do you find it more alarming or more encouraging that the kids, even if in the beginning, they're like grumble, grumble about the cell phones very quickly.
10:48They're like, oh no, thank God, because it's a terrible thing that I can't put down. The kids own that. Is that even more reason to be alarmed? I think it's encouraging because think about what they're up against that many adults can't even get around, which is just how the social media companies, for example, put billions of dollars into making sure people spend as much time as possible and come back to the app as often as possible. Those algorithms are really, really powerful. They get adults and they get children and teens even more. And yeah, that phone is just very compelling. And it's, there's a lot of behavioral psychology in there too, of like the Pavlovian response when it buzzes or dings, the reward of that dopamine hit, but then you come down from it.
11:32And early on, like in 2017, 2018, when I first started giving talks at high schools about this, at first I was really scared. I really thought the kids were going to hate me. And I was going to be, old lady, what are you talking about? You know, you don't know. Some of the things my own kids sometimes say to me now, they didn't say that. They didn't say that. I mean, I certainly got pushback from time to time, which I welcome. Like, great, let's talk about that. But most of the time it was, we know, but we don't know how to change it. And that's what this book is for. Okay, let's take a break.
12:04When we come back, can we talk more about the algorithms and why there's such a problem? So I wore my new Zenni glasses the other night. My husband and my kids were immediately like, new glasses? Cute. Considering how much attention they usually pay to literally anything I wear, I knew my Zenni glasses are, as the kids no longer say, on fleek.
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15:36Amy Wilson:And it's not just apparel. Quince also offers elevated essentials for your home, from bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and furniture. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to Quince.com slash fresh for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E, Quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash fresh. so gene you talk in the book so compellingly about how i mean the algorithms we all know like algorithm algorithm it means you can't put your phone down right but what you talk about in the book is how the algorithm drives an adolescent user into a rabbit hole like my instagram is not my daughter's instagram it's not my son's instagram they're completely different so when we say, TikTok seems fine.
16:35We don't know what our kids are being directed and sent down. So can you give us some examples of how that plays out? Yeah. So what the algorithm does is it shows you more of what it thinks you want to see, because that will keep you on the app longer. So TikTok is a great example. It's known for having a very, very sticky and effective algorithm. And the thing it does is if you watch something for a little longer, or you just even linger on it for a little longer, and Instagram Reels does the same thing, you linger on it for a little bit longer, it will show you more of that. So for, you know, a 45-year-old mom, that might end up being cooking videos or maybe workout videos.
17:17But for a teenager, what are they going to do? They're going to look a little bit longer at something that's disturbing, something that's inappropriate, something that's violent, that attracts their attention. And all humans do that, but especially teenagers or pick up on the mood that they're on. And everyone knows how teenagers moods go up and down within the course of seconds sometimes. And if they're in a bad mood, then it will pull them toward that negative depressive content. Sometimes, you know, other people talking about their depression or self-harm or suicidal thoughts. And then that's what they see because that's how their algorithm works.
17:53So yeah, they can end up down these very deep, dark rabbit holes in a way that a relatively mentally healthy adult is not going to see or experience.
18:05Amy Wilson:I see this with myself and my kids that it begins to feel like the world is represented on your algorithm, but it is really a bubble that's represented on your algorithm. So for I'm trying to think of an example of something. For some reason, I must have been holding my phone and something from India was playing on my phone. And I guess I let it play for too long. And then for a while, everything on my phone was from India. I was like, I don't understand this language. I don't know what's going on. But it really just showed me that thing of I accidentally strayed too long on here. And now the world is India in my phone, which is kind of a silly example.
18:46Amy Wilson:But I think that if you're looking at content that's like, I'm struggling with depression, And the world seems like we're all dark and depressed all the time. I'm really struck by that thing that I think we don't always calculate, which is our kids start to see the world reflected in their phones. I didn't see that danger coming. I thought, well, you want to keep them away from scary content. Yeah, it's sure scary content, but it's much more than that. And so that what you're observing there is right on because the algorithm also tends to pull for things that make people upset or angry because it gets shared more.
19:26So then it's more what they call engagement. So social psychology studies have looked at this for several years and found that consistently anything that makes people angry and upset gets pushed more and gets shared more. So you're going to see more of that. You're going to see more of people fighting, more people disagreeing, more content that will make you upset or angry because that keeps people on the app. And it's a complete funhouse mirror. It distorts all of these things that, yes, you go to an airport or any other place in the real world, and it's not like that. And people are, for the most part, getting along.
20:02It makes me think of Charlie Kirk's death and the reaction to it, right? There were definitely some people in my life who were like, who, I'm sorry, who is this? And then my young adolescents couldn't believe that these older people weren't supremely aware of every word this person had ever said. And they were just both like, what do you mean this person's famous? What do you mean you've never heard of this person? And it just showed how algorithmically different we all are. Fame is atomized. I mean, there's a few exceptions to that. But compared to my Gen X childhood, when fame meant, you know, you were in a TV show or a movie.
20:38Now my kids talk about this person and that person who, you know, they saw on YouTube and I have no idea who it is.
Read the full transcript
20:45Amy Wilson:But everybody has the same size microphone, which is another challenge because, well, you know, Blue 264 told me that actually. I'm like, that is a guy. Who the heck knows who that guy is? mother's basement right right if a guy walked up to you at the mall and was like by the way stop taking vaccines you'd be like uh wait what you're crazy back away from me right online people feel like oh well they must be an expert because they have a lot of followers right and no it's because they have provocative content content doesn't matter that it's wrong yeah so yeah there's absolute upsides to our system where that yes anybody can have a microphone but there's huge, huge downsides.
21:33And that's one of the biggest ones is misinformation and also that political polarization because, yeah, the average person online is going to be much more polarizing than the average person you meet in person because polarization, extreme viewpoints, extreme content gets likes and followers.
21:52Amy Wilson:Let me ask you about kids who struggle socially, who find gaming and online friends much easier to access because I have a kid like that. And it's a little bit more of a dilemma than my maybe more neurotypical kids for whom it's like, OK, just get offline. I think kids on the spectrum or kids with different neurodiverse issues sometimes find online relationships easier, whether it's lack of eye contact. I don't know exactly why, but what about that situation in terms of, is it always equally bad? Or for some kids, is it like, well, this kid kind of needs it actually? Yeah. Well, it makes me wonder what did kids on the spectrum do when those resources weren't available?
22:40Amy Wilson:Yeah. Right. And did they, more or less, they wanted social interaction, they had to pick up the phone or talk to people in person. And did that change them? I don't know. So you could make that argument. I wouldn't go that far of saying, okay, sorry, kid, because yeah, I totally get when kids are in that situation. I would say it's more of like a compromised position of gaming, if that's in real time with your friends, is a lot less obviously toxic than social media, but it can't be eight hours a day. You know, there has to be a limit on it. So I think that still applies for sure. But to favor things that are in real time and with friends makes a lot of sense.
23:19That makes a lot of sense. It seems to me, so one of your rules is about parental controls, that they exist and we need to be using them. So what would be some parental controls for a kid who does a lot of gaming? Are there ways to just turn it off after a certain amount of time? Or what would you suggest that parent do? So it should for sure shut down within about like a half hour before their bedtime. So then it's not going to interfere with sleep and they have time to wind down before they go to sleep because games are very, very engaging and they are revving up the brain. You know, and if that's right before sleep, then that's not good.
23:50You need to be settling down for sleep. That would be an absolute rule. And then beyond that, it would be some kind of reasonable time limit. And exactly what that is, I've heard families deal with that in a number of ways. There are some say none on the weekdays, but as much as you want on the weekends, I would go a little bit more moderate, like maybe an hour a day on the weekdays and maybe two or three on the weekends tops. So then they are getting that interaction, but it's not taking over their lives completely because social interaction is all well and good and gaming can fulfill that, especially for kids on the spectrum.
24:24but you know a lot of kids on the spectrum have other gifts and if they don't have the time to develop that like read extensively in an area they're interested in or write or play music you know whatever their gift is then that's all they're doing on the weekends is gaming they're
24:39Amy Wilson:not going to fill up those gifts yeah and we've talked before that technology it's kind of like water in a like opening door in a submarine like it just seeps in all the time like i'm keeping you from this. I've got my parental controls. I've got this and that. But now they've given you iPads at school. So now you're on an iPad working or watching TikTok. I don't really get me started off in school, laptops and iPads. I know. I have kids now who are teenagers. They go up to their rooms. I assume they're working on homework, but you don't know. This is my life. Their phone is in my hand, but it's in the groundwater, I guess is what I'm saying.
25:22Amy Wilson:Then they're upstairs on their computer, but oh, wait a minute, I just figured out, you can play Minecraft on the school computer. I don't know what the heck you're doing. I know. And it has YouTube on it, too, right? That's right, YouTube. Drives me crazy. And YouTube Shorts is basically TikTok, right? I mean, in the beginning, I always say, I was like, we're banning TikTok, I'm a tough mom, we're banning it. And then I realized, oh, TikTok is just YouTube Shorts. It's work. It comes in from so many different directions that I thought I was being so on top of it by banning that. But my kids are still watching a million stupid short videos about stuff that I'm sure is vaguely inappropriate.
25:58So what do you suggest, Jean, that parents do about that? Is it talking to the schools and saying, can we get some homework not on laptop? I mean, what would you do in such a situation to try to hold some of it back? Yeah, that's part of it is, yeah, trying to have that conversation with the school. like, hey, my kid's really distracted and they're not getting their work done and they're on YouTube shorts. My youngest is still in middle school and they got rid of YouTube shorts on the school laptops. Finally, they still have YouTube, but they don't have YouTube shorts. So like tiny progress.
26:25Amy Wilson:I mean, it is actual progress in a way. Yeah. I mean, so that's good. And then I also, at this, this is not a perfect solution. It just, it depends on how it works in a particular school district. But if they can use a personal laptop instead of the school laptop to do that homework, it's usually by high school they can then you can put parental controls on it then you can put a time limit on youtube usually you can't ban it completely because they often need to watch a youtube video for homework which i get why can't they just incorporate that into canvas so this is the other type of conversation i try to have with the folks at school of can you have that video like play in canvas or be downloaded or just not on youtube because i don't know i teach college students.
27:07I use YouTube in my teaching. I get how it can be educational. I get how it can be useful. But then if they watch that video and then they're watching the next video and the next video, then they're not doing their homework.
27:17Amy Wilson:Yeah. And it is really a rabbit hole. I mean, I find myself sometimes checking Facebook, usually for work stuff. And then suddenly I'm watching like AI shorts of like the Royals dancing. I'm like, what? How has this happened to me? Like, yeah, I'm not interested in this, but I have somehow spent a half an hour watching stupid AI videos. Exactly. And then I'm reading the comments to be like, did these people not realize this is AI? I don't know. It really sucks you in. It does. That's what it's designed to do. Yeah. It's designed to do that. And it's very effective at doing that even for adults and then imagining 12.
27:52Yeah. Right. And it's kind of infuriating that really the only. Oh, yes. We know this. The social media platforms know this. And the fix is, well, parents just tell them to put their phones down, right? That that seems completely unfair to me. It is 100 % unfair. It's absolutely ridiculous. Parents are in an often impossible position. And, you know, obviously, I think parents can do some things. I wrote the book to try to make it easier for parents. But we need we need more regulation and we need schools to think a little bit more deeply about the ed tech, which doesn't seem to have had the results that they were hoping for.
28:24Amy Wilson:Yeah. It's one of the many problems that we've discussed, including family leave or all sorts of other policies where this tip of the spear comes at mom like, well, you should just figure it out. It's like, I know it's a gigantic system. I know it's infuriating to make this hard, but I think it's worthwhile to put it in front of people and especially mothers all the time. This isn't happening because you're a bad parent. This is happening because multi-billion dollar corporations are making this as hard as humanly possible. It's not because you stink as a mom. Exactly. We have to give parents grace.
29:00Absolutely. And acknowledge how hard it is. And I found it hard too with my three teenagers. And I talk about that a lot in the book of like, look, you know, this is a really hard job. It's hard for a reason. Exactly. And I'm really hoping that we'll get more regulation in this area. Like Australia did that. They raised the minimum age for social media to 16 and they're going to verify age. That's supposed to go into effect in December. So we'll see how that goes. I'm hoping it goes well. I'm hoping other countries will follow. We're talking to Dr. Jean Twenge and we'll be right back. After a long day in the summer sun, my skin needs a hydration reset.
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31:17Jean, can we talk about that? That was the rule that I thought in your book, like, okay, this is the most challenging and probably the most important, perhaps, that this note that we shouldn't allow our kids to have social media accounts until they're 16. Or later. Or later. Now, Meta or other platforms set it at 13. and you point out in the book, which I had never considered before, that that is an entirely arbitrary age. So tell us about the problems, even at 13, with having access to these platforms. Yeah. So 13 was chosen as the age of so-called internet adulthood in 1998, you know, before social media even existed, as a compromise with tech companies.
32:00It wasn't chosen in consultation with, you know, any parents or authorities or anything, because really what A parent or developmental expert or teacher would ever say 13. Middle school, right at the beginning of puberty, that's the perfect time to introduce social media. Like, you know, and whatever, argue that middle school is hard enough already. And there's so much maturity that happens between 13 and 16. Just a lot of development, a lot of developmental self-control. The social system among kids settles out some. They're not quite as sensitive to what other people think at 16 as they were at 13.
32:35So it just doesn't make sense for it to be 13. Although speaking of like small progress, I think it'd be amazing if the social media companies verified age even to make sure that kids were 13 because they don't even do that. Yeah, there are 10 year olds on TikTok on a regular basis, even on Instagram, because they don't verify age. And they say that, oh, yeah, we see, you know, sometimes we kick them off, but it's routine. And surveys show that 10 to 12 year olds are, I think, maybe not the majority, but a good 40, almost 50 percent are on TikTok. So clearly they're not doing enough. But I think keeping them off of social media until 16 is challenging.
33:13That I do think can be done more than say, keeping them off YouTube on the school laptop. That's really hard. But with social media, if you give them a basic phone, as opposed to a smartphone, if you put parental controls on their laptop, you're getting things like you're talking about, like the water sneaking through, but then you have the tools in place to block it. So my younger two are 13 and 15, almost 16. And so they have a couple of times managed to open accounts, but I've managed to shut them down and block access pretty successfully with those two strategies.
33:47Amy Wilson:I will say one of the things that's good about TikTok is that it serves you, your kids' accounts, even if they're secret. Don't ask me how I know. But this leads me to a question about scaffolding and figuring out, like, I now have a 17-year-old as of yesterday. 15-year-old and a 13-year-old. yeah and starting we've kind of taken the approach i mean do they have social media maybe some and then of course like amy was saying i think of social media as facebook and instagram they're on snapchat like i don't know what snapchat is i don't but it's the favorite app of drug dealers that's what it is oh that's great good to know great that's awesome i'll recheck that one.
34:32Amy Wilson:But how do you start, I wonder, scaffolding kids to be able to use social media responsibly? One of the things I always tell my kids is everything you ever post on social media, I want you to picture me and your high school principal sitting down and opening your phone together because the chance of that happening is very high. I also feel like it's important having a 17-year-old now to say, like, let's try to talk about how we're using these things. You know, are we engaging in bullying of other people? Are we watching inappropriate things? If you are only getting served content about variations of people's sexual expression, you might not be ready for that information at 13, and you might start seeing the world as being 90 % something when the world is 2 % that thing.
35:29Amy Wilson:And so how do we do groundwork and get them ready and be talking enough about social media? Because it's not just like when you turn on your 16, you'll be totally fine. Right, absolutely. And I should also say here that some people argue you should put it off until 18. And I have a good amount of sympathy for that viewpoint. Yeah. Partially because when you open a social media account, You're signing your data away. And what other contract can a 16 or 17 year old sign? But this is another slippery slope. Yeah. My kid is on, you know, Sports U, which is fundamentally a social media app. But that's how they get all their information about their games that are coming up.
36:08Yeah. And it shouldn't be that way.
36:09Amy Wilson:Yeah. They should find another way to do that. That's another conversation. But it looks just like a social media app. It's crazy. Yeah. But to answer your question, rule one has the seven conversations you should have with your kids. and not even at 16 before they get social media, but even probably starting at 10 to have these conversations like never, ever, ever send a new picture is number one. That's a good one. And let me tell you, it's something I randomly shout at my kids like 10 times a week. Don't ever send pictures of your junk to anybody ever. Right. And from my Generation X viewpoint, it's like, who would ever do that?
36:44And like literally everybody does that if they're under a certain age now, except your kid, hopefully. Exactly. Can you tell us a little bit about, because I'm sure people listening are like, this is great, sounds good, but there's no way that's actually practical to put into use. But you walk the walk. You have three kids. You are putting these restrictions in place with your own kids. Do they hate it? Have you gotten them to buy in over time? How have you done it? First, I have to say, you know, I have not done it perfectly. I've made mistakes and had the course correct. And there certainly have been some things that my kids have hated more than others, but it can't be done.
37:18So for one thing, I just got to say this from the outset, it is a total myth that teens have to have social media to be able to communicate with their friends. It's just not true. There's other ways that they can do that. They can text, they can call. They just have to have the conversation with their friends of like, hey, my mom is really mean and she doesn't let me use Snapchat or whatever. Yes. And my 18 year old had such a great thing to say about this. She said, you know, anyone who won't communicate with you if you're not on a certain app is not actually your friend. And I had that was really powerful.
37:50It's true.
37:51Amy Wilson:We talk a lot about boundary seeking behavior. I think kids want boundaries around some of this stuff. It's too big for them. They do. Even teens. They want permission to say, I can't go to that keg party because my mom will kill me because they're not ready to be there. but they also want like my mom won't let me participate in sexy TikTok dances because I'm 12. They want it. Exactly. Exactly. Then they have they have an out. Yeah. They have an out. Yeah. So you said something in the book that has really stayed with me to not give your kid a phone, which again, if you maybe this is for the parents out there who have a nine year old who's really angling for that phone for their 10th birthday.
38:30You said in the book, if you don't give your kid a phone, that's one fight. It might be a big fight, but it's one fight. But if you do give your kid a phone, it is these small daily fights. Every single day. Every single day. Every single time you go to turn off the gaming console. I'm thinking about the gaming. You do a good job in the book of reframing. It's kind of all a problem. It's not just the phone. It's also the laptop and the gaming console. When my kids would be gaming, it was never a good time to turn it off because that's, of course, how the game is designed. I know. It's a level.
39:01It's a panic about turning it off every single day. I would say, can you pause it? And they're like, no, we can't pause it. That's not how it works. So, I mean, it's a good point if you haven't waded into this yet. And this sounds really hard. Like it is hard, but so is giving them the phone because it doesn't stop being hard. Exactly. Right. One big fight versus a thousand little
39:19Amy Wilson:fights. I think that's it. You know, that you put it off as long as possible and then that you have clear, concrete rules for when they're going to get the smartphone. So not when you're ready, honey. But what I say in the book is your first smartphone, internet-enabled phone when you get your driver's license. That is a bright line. Wow. That's been really, really helpful. That's smart. I have a 15-year-old about to turn 16. She's working on getting the license, but her DMV appointment isn't until November. And she's like, but I'm turning 16. Can you get me for my birthday? No. When do you have your license?
39:51And she hasn't asked again. We had that one conversation and then that was it because it was a very clear line.
39:57Amy Wilson:Another interesting part Part of this that I find in my own story is, but I need, I have to say, I gave my kid a smartphone when they were like nine because I have three closely spaced kids. And at the end of the school day, it was like the scattering of the cockroaches. I could never find them. I really wanted the thing where I could see where they were because I want to go be able to find their dot. That seems so much easier to me. But I guess that's a place where we have to watch our own story, right? that the convenience of me seeing their dot is maybe not worth having a 10-year-old with a smartphone.
40:34You solve one problem and you create 100 others. That's what happens. And that's very common.
40:38Amy Wilson:That's a perfect way to say it. I mean, that did solve a pretty big problem for me. I like being able to look at the phone and say, all right, I know where everybody is. And that's right. They got to their lesson that they were supposed to walk to. Great. But solved one problem, created 100. That is going to stay with me. We've been talking to Dr. Jean Twenge. Her new book is 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World. This book, no matter how old your kids are, no matter where you are on getting your kids a phone and their social media journey, you will find so much useful takeaways and so much to think about.
41:13Dr. Twenge, tell our listeners where else they can find you. So my website, jeanetwangee.com, has all about my books and speaking engagements and op-eds and all of that good stuff. That's probably the best resource.
41:27Amy Wilson:Spelled T-W-E-N-G-E and the first name is J-E-A-N, but we will link to that. So you're probably doing laundry or driving. Don't worry about writing it down. We will link to it. It was such a pleasure to talk to you today, Jean. I've been following your research for years and it's so important what you do. So thanks for talking to us. Yeah, we're huge admirers of yours. Thanks for talking to us. Thanks so much for having me on. It was really fun.
42:20Thank you. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.
From the publisher
Amy and Margaret sit down with Dr. Jean Twenge, renowned researcher of generational differences and author of the new book 10 RULES FOR RAISING KIDS IN A HIGH-TECH WORLD.
Dr. Twenge shares what her research reveals about smartphones, social media, and gaming—and how they impact kids’ mental health, sleep, and friendships.
From the rise of teen depression since the smartphone boom, to the addictive power of algorithms, to the everyday battles over devices in our homes and schools, this conversation sheds light on what’s really happening when kids spend hours online. Dr. Twenge also offers parents very clear rules around devices that may not be easy to implement—but may be far easier than the small daily fights we're all having about screens.
Whether you’re navigating screen time with your elementary schooler or arguing with your teen over TikTok, this episode is full of insights and realistic tools to help your family thrive in the digital age.
Here's where you can find Dr. Twenge:
www.jeantwenge.com
@jean_twenge on X
Buy 10 RULES FOR RAISING KIDS IN A HIGH-TECH WORLD: https://bookshop.org/a/12099/9781668099995
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Dr. Jean Twenge, 10 Rules for Raising Kids in a High-Tech World, smartphones and kids, social media and teens, screen time rules, parenting in the digital age, parental controls, TikTok and teens, smartphone addiction, teen mental health, kids and technology, raising kids with phones, screen time boundaries, algorithms and teens
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