Fresh Take: Jessica Shaw, "Everyone Gets a Juice Box"

0:00We're leaving today and entering a world of Mickey Mouse waving, princess meeting and greeting, lightsaber clashing, the Twilight Zone Tower of Terror dropping, Banshee flying, Space Mountain launching, galaxy rewinding, what's the whole deck with galaxy rewinding, fireworks igniting, World of Other Worlds. For whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on Earth. Walt Disney World Resort. Hello, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret, and today I am talking to Jessica Shaw. Jessica is an award-winning journalist and radio host whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Entertainment Weekly, Vanity Fair, and more.

0:47She's also the proud mom of two teens who think differently and the host of the new podcast, Everyone Gets a Juice Box, a space where parents connect over the challenges and triumphs of raising neurodivergent kids. Welcome, Jessica. Thank you, Margaret. I'm so happy to be here. So we like to begin the podcast with a definition. So neurodivergent is a term that I don't know when it came into the lexicon, but I have a neurodivergent child myself. And we now I feel like are very familiar with the terms neurodivergent, neurotypical. So tell me about how you define the term neurodivergent. As you said, this is a term that is everywhere now and people are just like, wait, what does it actually mean?

1:35To me, I guess it means, and by the way, I'm no doctor nor am I a dictionary writer, but it means someone who thinks a little bit differently or who learns differently or whose brain works in a slightly or very different way than the mainstream. If you're looking for a more technical definition, I can tell you neurodiversity is a concept that has gone back many decades and of course refers to individuals whose brain wiring is atypical compared to the normative population. And it covers, as we said, like many, many things. It could be autism, it could be ADHD, dyslexia, other learning differences, other thinking differences.

2:23And I think it's important to recognize that neurodivergent individuals, these are natural variations rather than quote unquote problems. And to me, that is just an imperative piece of this that everyone has to understand. Makes sense. And during our conversation today, we'll probably use the term spectrum a lot. And so that will cover from autism through ADHD, dyslexia, all the things we're talking about exist on that spectrum. Absolutely. It's interesting having a neurodivergent child that the definition can be so wide sometimes. I've heard people make the argument that everyone is somewhat neurodivergent, which I get it.

3:11I mean, I feel my brain works differently than my husband's brain and my children's brain. But is there a usefulness in maybe collapsing the definition a little bit so it doesn't just feel like, well, we're all in the same boat? because I think for moms who are maybe on the deep side of the boat, it feels a little bit like, okay, your child who is a tiny bit quirky in their music taste is not the same as my child who doesn't have language. I so completely hear that. And I, to be honest, Margaret, I kind of see both sides of it. I do too. I definitely do. Right. There's one part of it that's like, as you said, we're all neurodivergent.

3:58We all diverge in the ways that our brain, that our neurology works. And yes, I mean, I have to say in the past 20 years since I had kids-ish almost, I'm a million years old. We call it oldie locks on this podcast. So you're just an oldie locks with the rest of us. I mean, you and me are baskets. We're like going through the forest right now. So yes, Yes, I feel like that definition has broadened and broadened and broadened and the umbrella has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. Now, for some people, for some parents especially, that might feel a little bit lonely because it's like, wait, that corner of the umbrella is as different from my corner of the umbrella as something in a whole other weather pattern.

4:44So it can feel lonely. On the other hand, I do feel like, and I talk to so many parents for Everyone Gets a Juice Box, that I do feel like there is a common thread. I feel like there is a common experience that so many parents go through that, though it is not identical, my experience as a parent is different from your experience and different from truly so many parents' experiences. because our kids all think a little bit differently from each other and from peers and whatever it is. But I bet there's a common ground in there somewhere. Yeah. And I think in terms of providing help and support, it can be a big tent where kind of tribes find each other.

5:31That's what I've found a little bit, that a mom who has a child who doesn't access language or who doesn't walk is on a different side of the tent, maybe with that group of people, but maybe benefiting from everybody's perspective. Absolutely benefiting from everybody's perspective. And first of all, yes, times a billion to what you just said about finding your tribe and the importance of having other parents. I think we have all learned that the establishments don't always give you exactly what you need. Sometimes give you none of what you need. Sometimes, if you're lucky, give you everything of what you need.

6:14But in my experience, and certainly in the experience of the parents I talk to on Everyone Gets a Juice Box, it's the parents. It's that community. That's your tribe. That is what's the most supportive. They're the ones that give you the advice. They're the ones that bond with you. They're the ones that are like, yep, I see you. I get you. You don't need to explain in 10 ,000 words, you can say four words, I know exactly that feeling. So it can be a tremendous support wherever you are in this tent as you were, as you said, and you find your people. I also think that even if you're at the other end of the tent, you may have had to navigate a situation with a school system with a neuropsychologist, with a summer camp, with peers, whatever, that though it's not identical, we can all kind of offer insight and tips for everyone under that tent.

7:17One thing that I think is interesting talking to a range of moms who have kids with, for the period I'll use the term special needs, is that the journey to where you are in the tent can be very complicated and painful. And it can be difficult to talk about, but sometimes it's like you're really wishing to stay on the kind of high functioning, everything's almost a K and my kid can kind of pass as neurotypical side of the tent. And because of the way these diagnoses often develop, it's always in motion. And there's a kind of fear of embracing the more profound end of the needs. I know for myself, I was very wary of the special needs mom's warrior.

8:08And I was sort of like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm not sure that's me yet. I'm not sure where this journey is going. And I have a lot of compassion for my former self who was feeling all of those feelings. But it is an interesting dilemma of accessing the right kind of care or the right kind of support when you almost aren't willing to acknowledge that you need it. And also, I would add to that, that so often the people around you are not acknowledging that you need it. I mean, the number of parents I've spoken to who have told me that they have have said, oh, I think my kid needs support with this, or I'm noticing this about my child, like telling even a teacher or a principal.

8:54And peers will say, peers and educators might say, no, it's fine. No, just wait it out. No, they're just this, they're just that. And that input that so many of us get, there's our internal, as you said, I mean, there are certain things, you know, it's like when you read your parenting book, not everything's in the book, you know, not everything's those parenting guides. And when you're choosing to have children, you don't have all of the information. You don't know what your child is going to be. And so there's that path. And then there's the path of the people that you rely on. And if they're saying your instinct about what's happening is wrong or don't pay attention to it, that can be very difficult.

9:42And for people who haven't been through the process, often we have an infant and infants kind of all are little potato bundles who don't do very many things. And then we have these kind of guideposts of, okay, well, now they're supposed to be sitting up. Now they're supposed to be babbling. Now they're supposed to say first words. but also you can kind of ignore those things because like my dad didn't walk until he's two and now he's you know the mayor of the city and the guideposts and the markers and I think it can kind of feel like pain by a thousand cuts sometimes of wait a minute I thought it was okay that they weren't sitting up but wait they are babbling but they're not making eye contact and the morass that you find yourself in, nothing is more important to us than the question of, are our kids okay?

10:35And so we're kind of reading tea leaves constantly about, well, wait a minute, no babbling, but walking is good. Or wait a minute, he didn't crawl and he went right to walking. That's bad. And being stuck in that space. And I think for people listening who have not had that experience. What is your take on that experience of kind of getting a diagnosis, looking for the clues, trying to figure out what's going on? I mean, that's exactly it. We all have to be detectives and we are looking for clues. I remember one of my kids spoke very late and even when you just said, are they babbling in time?

11:13I had an immediate visceral reaction to you. No babbling, I'm dying. Because I was like, Please don't bring me back to that because I remember, and I was in a mom group of all these new, and their kids, and my kid wasn't. And I remember asking her pediatrician, asking different things. And it was like, well, it could be she's just talking super late and she's just going to start talking it. And some kids talk a little bit later than others. No biggie, all good. Or she could be non-verbal. You know what I mean? And it's like, right, that spectrum is, it's torture for a parent to not have that crystal ball.

11:56Also, because frankly, like, you want to, as a parent, you want to intervene or get the, you know, so called interventions as early as you can. So when the quote, unquote, experts and the people with all the knowledge and the medical knowledge and neurological knowledge and all of that stuff, when they're like, we don't now. Could be this, could be that. Just wait and see. No biggie. Go home and have a drink. No big deal. It's like, no, because this is going to consume my every thought now. Right. I mean, and everybody has that experience with kids, but neurodivergent kids, just that little bit extra.

12:32I am talking to Jessica Shaw. She is the host of the podcast. Everyone gets a juice box and we'll be right back. For some of us, tax season is one of the only times that we look at our finances fully. And once it's over, well, that was terrible. And it is completely understandable not to want to think about it for another whole year. But using Monarch and being intentional with your finances in an ongoing way helps you see where your money is going and how you can put your refund to best use. We are here to tell you, simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier.

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16:04Get 10 % off your first order sitewide with code FRESH at OseaMalibu.com. That's 10 % off your first order with code FRESH at, I'm going to spell it, O-S-E-A-M-A-L-I-B-U, OseaMalibu.com. So Jessica, tell me about Everyone Gets a Juice Box, the title, and your journey to starting the podcast. Well, Everyone Gets a Juice Box is from understood.org, which is an incredible, I'm sure you're familiar with it, I'm sure your listeners are, just like extraordinary resources. and other podcasts, though, obviously, mine is my fave. And it's a show for parents to talk and to, you know, it's not an advice show.

16:53It's not a prescriptive show. It's not. And here's your issue. And this is what you need to do. We say at the end of every episode, we solved our dilemma. So you're not a solved it kind of podcast. You're on a journey. No, we're not as solved. We're sort of like, you know, you use the tent metaphor earlier, and that's sort of or the umbrella. I mean, any one of these metaphors, it's a little bit like, come snuggle with me under the umbrella, like come in the tent, and just like, put your legs up and like, sit next to me. And let's talk because guess what, we can talk to each other in a way that's just understanding, we get it, we get each other.

17:34I will say my experience has never once been identical to the other parents that I've spoken to. And yet there is such a common ground between all of us that I do feel like I end up learning something every single time I talk to someone. And also I just, it sounds like so cheesy, but it really does fill me with joy that there is a place that a parent can just go just to talk without it being like, do this, do that, da-da-da. Or you didn't do this, you didn't do this, you didn't do this. Just kind of like, hey, can we just share this experience? Because I know for me at different points and for many parents, it's lonely.

18:22Sometimes you don't know who to talk to. Sometimes you go to pick up your kid at elementary school or pre-K or wherever they are. And you're like, oh, I feel really alone because my kid's not acting like those other kids in the school playground or whatever it is. And that is, I find loneliness to be just the most profoundly painful feeling. So with Everyone Gets a Juice Box, we want people to feel less lonely. I mean, I feel less lonely when I talk to people and I think I hope other people do as well. And I think the new understanding around neurodiversity, I know when I first got the diagnosis, I was on the internet, basically, like, what is this?

19:14And very dire predictions. And again, like, where are we going to end up? It seems like maybe my kid's going to be Bill Gates, It's just a quirky billionaire or maybe my kids going to have very profound issues that affect every aspect of their lives. And I have no idea where I am on this. And then I also think it's become difficult to talk about the struggles of neurodiverse kids because it implies that we want our kids to be different, that we don't love their kids the way that they are, that we are not understatement. of their true selves. But that is so unfair to moms. It is challenging and different to have a neurodiverse kid.

20:02And the idea that we're not allowed to discuss the challenges of it because it somehow means we're not good moms drives me absolutely crazy. Yeah. And that it somehow means that we have a big problem with how our kid is. Right. And it's like, what it needs to be is yes and. Yes, there are specific things that a parent of a neurodivergent kid goes through. Okay. And what? That doesn't mean you're a bad parent for acknowledging it. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your kid that you're talking about it. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your relationship, with your community, any of it.

20:47It's just yes and. Yes and let's talk about it. And that those experiences are painful. And I think that's where sometimes we feel like we can't go to that place where we say, getting a diagnosis that was different than I thought the path that I was on was painful and was a loss for me. it doesn't mean that my child's life is not worthy or is painful or that my child is the source of my pain. But in the same way that if you got any diagnosis that was with any kid, you would feel that pain. I think with neurodivergence sometimes, I always say that pain is like a thousand tiny stab wounds. It's never like the big, okay, your child has cancer and it's life or death, and we're going to deal with it for this series of months.

21:40It's a little bit more tiny pain spread out over a much longer period of time. Yeah. And it's so unhelpful when there's any kind of external judgment of the way you experience it, the way you as a parent. And yes, I mean, let's just say like, a lot of it falls on moms, a lot of it falls on women, and how you experience it, the emotions you feel around different things. There's judgment. I mean, listen, like, let's be honest, there is endless judgment about women, about mothers. So it is not surprising on any level that this judgment exists, but it's so utterly toxic. It really is that it gets in the way of, I mean, I think dialogue is always the solution in everything.

22:31It's why we have a podcast is why you have a podcast. Like, I think talking these things through is always closer to the solution because it helps not only, and I've talked to parents who are extremely well-meaning and they think like, I would love to include your child in our jumparoo disco birthday party, but I know that all the pieces of jumparoo disco are horrible for your kiddo. And so I don't know what to do. I don't know if I should invite them and then you're going to feel pressured to come and then it's going to be a nightmare. I don't know. Helping us all navigate these things together involves an open dialogue about what's actually going on.

23:17Exactly. Because even as you were saying that, I was thinking, yes, then there might be a parent who's like, oh, I don't know if I want to bring this subject up with this other mom. And Jumperoo might not be right for, you know, in hushed tones, might not be right for their kid. It implies a shamefulness around it when you do it in that way. Yeah. And it's like, guess what? Give me a call. Text me about Jumperoo. We'll talk. I'm cool with talking about things. And that's sort of, I don't know, the wariness sometimes with which other parents can approach me. It's a little bit exhausting. It's like, yeah, I know what my needs are.

23:57I know what my kids' needs are. We can talk about things. Yeah. It reminds me of someone saying, well, to a cousin of mine, I didn't want to bring up the fact your husband died because I didn't want to remind you. And she's like, yeah, I remember every day. Don't worry about it. It's never going to take me by surprise. I think about it pretty much every day. And I think sometimes it is delicate to say, hey, I notice a difference in your child. And again, this is a spectrum. So for some people in the middle of the spectrum or wherever, it might be important to them that people don't notice the difference in their child.

24:30I mean, there's a reason why these dialogues are complicated, I think. There is. And I would say, I mean, I'm curious here if you've experienced this as well, that when you talk to parents of neurodivergent kids, if there's less of that difficult conversation, like on Everyone Gets a Juice Box, I do feel like, listen, we're in our first season, so it might happen. But I have yet to experience a conversation with another parent that has that hesitant, oh, I don't know if I want to say this. It just feels like, you know, that feeling when you're just talking to someone. And it's like, okay, thank the Lord.

25:14I do not need to have my shoulders tensed right now. And I don't need to make sure someone feels emotionally okay to talk about something. We can just talk to each other. That's right. I think of a situation that I sent my kid into that was probably over their head. And I thought, I think they could probably handle it. And then it was a class basically. And they had reached out to me and said, you know, this isn't going great. And I said, well, could I send somebody with him every class? And that was the solution, which I probably would have just been better off talking about. I do think for myself, I did struggle a little bit with the denial aspect of it.

26:01Like, oh, it's going to prove something about who this kid is if they can do it with no one noticing. And that I look back on as not a mistake. I didn't know any better. But I look back and I think, oh, yeah, that was really just me thinking everything would be OK if the kid could pass in this environment. I mean, I'm only going to push back on that a little bit because I feel like what was really going on for you, not to like analyze the situation too much, but I feel like what was going on for you in that moment is I want things to be easy for my kid. Right. You know, I mean, I feel like cut yourself some slack.

26:40Oh, yes, for sure. For sure. Like who among us does not want our kid to have like a sunny, easy path? And that's okay. Like I hate to hear when a parent turns it on themselves because, oh my gosh, you wanted your kid to have an easy, happy life. Like, is that what passing means? You know? I think for myself, I definitely don't look back and beat up that older version of myself. But when I'm talking to other parents, if I look at anything that I'm like staring the truth down a little bit earlier so that I didn't find myself constantly. Amy has an expression, the pain is in the gap. And I spent too much time in the gap rather than just being like, we're taking the left road when I thought I was taking the right road.

27:28I spent so much time trying to be like, this is the right road. Don't look over here. Look, we're still on the right road. And it would have been just, I think, easier on all of us if I had just been like, the left road is also good. But who was your GPS? Nobody. Exactly. The internet that was like the left road is the path of doom. And so yeah, I mean, for sure, didn't know better. And I give all of us a ton of grace for the situation. And God bless my kid, they're doing amazing. Like it's also all worked out really well. I'm really happy. So I definitely don't spend any time beating myself up on that.

28:09But it's just that hard thing where this diagnosis is so wide that it's like, well, are you dealing with a kid who's going to need a little extra help on homework or something very different? It's just, and I think that you can get the feeling internally that staying on the quote unquote high functioning side of the tent is the most important part of the story. And you can kind of miss the joys of the middle or the far side of the tent or the opportunities or the help you could be getting to make those places easier if you're busy being like, the only thing I care about is pretending that we belong on this side of the tent.

28:51Yes. And the only way to know about the rest of the tent is if people talk about it. No one wants to go into that space that no one has spoken about. That's scary. That's like a scream movie. You know what I mean? We don't want to go somewhere that is like the sun doesn't shine. The image that's coming into my head is like in The Lion King where Scar hangs out. Where Scar lives. Yep. Yes, that other area. So when there isn't a conversation, when there isn't a dialogue, when there aren't parents being like, yeah, come hang with me over here, like the sun's still shining here, it's very hard to not think that there's one place to be.

29:40Right, exactly. I'm talking to Jessica Shaw. She is the host of Everyone Gets a Juice Box, the podcast, and we will be right back with some of your specific questions. These days, Hellions, I'm all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet. That's why I love Quince. They make high-quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100 % European linen, 100 % silk, and organic cotton poplin. Their lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters are perfect for the changing seasons. I love my Quince short-sleeved cashmere crew neck so much, I got it in two more colors. Dress them up, dress them down, I'm out the door.