In short
Why people who benefit from social connection still avoid it, and how “small choices” (talking, asking deeper questions, expressing gratitude/support) can increase happiness, health, and connection.
Guest
Nicholas Epley, John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. Studies social cognition—how people misunderstand others’ thoughts, beliefs, and desires. Author of Mind Wise and A Little More Social.
Key claims
Loneliness is biologically harmful (cortisol, immune/cardiovascular effects). The main barrier isn’t that people don’t want connection; it’s that we underestimate how much others want it. Fear and pessimism are self-fulfilling. Social connection can be trained like a habit via “choice audits” and testing beliefs.
Notable examples
Harry Harlow’s wire vs cloth “monkey mother” experiment; “nobody talks” subway norm; a 23-minute Uber ride leading to tears after a driver’s story; dorm-room friendships via “propinquity” (close proximity).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Nicholas Epley and His Research
1:01 to 2:28
Nicholas Epley discusses his background and the paradox of social connection.
“He is the author of Mind Wise, How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel and Want.”
The Wire Mesh Monkey Experiment
2:28 to 4:19
Understanding social connection through Harry Harlow's experiments with monkeys.
“Is it phone plus pandemic or is this something that was sort of already coming for us in other ways?”
The Importance of Social Connection
4:19 to 7:39
Exploring how social connection affects our mental and physical health.
“I'm like, I'm the wire mesh monkey baby.”
Barriers to Social Connection
7:39 to 13:35
Discussing fears and misconceptions that prevent social interactions.
“That's why the opposite of loneliness feels like happiness is because when we are connected with other people, we've got millions of years of human evolution going into our brains, encouraging us to do that more often.”
Understanding Social Set Points
16:58 to 21:03
Discussing how individual differences affect our ability to engage with strangers.
“I get the life story of every cab driver.”
Overcoming Fear of Connection
21:03 to 23:19
Examining the fear that holds people back from initiating conversations.
“But it is a skill you develop when you practice it over time.”
Building Connection Skills
23:19 to 26:14
Strategies for improving connection skills and social interactions.
“You say in the book, it's not one big fix.”
Practical Tips for Social Engagement
26:14 to 28:00
Tips for recognizing and seizing opportunities to connect with others.
“I don't know how exactly it will work for everybody, but I think in people's lives, you can find places where you'd like to connect and engage.”
Practical Tips for Encouraging Connection
28:00 to 30:00
Learn practical strategies to help yourself and your kids connect with others.
“our mistaken pessimism is holding us back, is to think about it in a way that's similar to exercise.”
Navigating Conversations Across Divides
32:42 to 42:00
Understand how to foster connections despite political or social differences.
“Very easy to see in other people, particularly in our children.”
Show all 12 chapters
The Impact of Structured Environments on Social Connection
42:00 to 44:36
Explore how modern environments hinder social interactions and connections.
“Before we close, I want to talk, I thought this was really interesting in the book, about environments and how our structured environments are barriers to the kind of social connection that you're talking about.”
Small Choices for a More Social Life
44:36 to 45:52
Learn about the importance of small choices in improving social interactions.
“When are you choosing to make yourself isolated in a way that might not be good for you, sometimes without even noticing it?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Heidi Raykeil:You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over$900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99 % of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of$946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025.
0:36Heidi Raykeil:Potential savings will vary.
0:40Angela Santomero:Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take. From what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood, this is Margaret.
0:46Heidi Raykeil:And this is Amy. Today we're talking to Nicholas Epley. He is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavioral Science and director of the Roman Family Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. Nick studies social cognition, how thinking people think about other thinking people to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He is the author of Mind Wise, How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel and Want. And Nick's latest book, which we'll be talking about today, is A Little More Social, How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection.
1:24Heidi Raykeil:Welcome, Nick. Thank you so much for having me here. Big bio, Nick. We're expecting a lot from you.
1:28Angela Santomero:No pressure. It doesn't fit on the back of the jersey very well. So you start this book with a paradox. So let's start there. Tell us about the paradox that starts this book. So the paradox is that we're highly social creatures. Decades of research has shown that we are made happier and healthier. We live longer lives when we're connected with other people in positive ways. And yet, just look around a little bit, if you would. There are opportunities every single day, big and small opportunities, that we could take to connect with other people that we choose not to. We don't talk to strangers.
2:04We stick to small talk rather than going deeper in conversation. We lean back and type to each other rather than leaning in and picking up the phone and actually talking to somebody. We feel grateful, but don't express it, need help, don't ask for it. Want to express social support to somebody, but don't. And so that's the paradox. Why is it that highly social creatures like us often choose to be so darn unsocial?
2:28Heidi Raykeil:Is it phone plus pandemic or is this something that was sort of already coming for us in other ways? So those of us of a certain era will remember times beforehand, of course, all the moms on this call, when we had books and newspapers and things to disconnect us from other people. Two, Stanley Milgram, famous social psychologist living in New York, went into the subways of New York City in 1973 to try to understand urban life and noted two norms on the trains in New York. One was that people take seats on a first-come, first-served basis. And second, nobody talks to anyone. That was long before COVID and Steve Jobs ruined our world with the iPhone or complicated our world with the iPhone.
3:12So there is something that's kind of basic about this, I think, that has been true for a long time. We're often nervous or anxious about reaching out and connecting with other people. But I do think it's certainly been compounded by phones. The constant distraction that we have, the easy ability to look somewhere else or to have our earbuds in, which also signals to other people that maybe we're not interested in talking, has definitely compounded things as well.
3:38Angela Santomero:So we like to always start on the podcast by defining the problem. And the problem that you're trying to get at in this book is social connection. Yep. do we really need this social connection? You cite a bunch of studies, including one that still haunts me where I'm roommates from college and I still talk about it. The horrible wire mesh monkey mother. My roommates and I took sociology or anthropology, I don't know what class it was, but learned about this horrible experiment where this monkey was raised with a wire mesh monkey mother. And we still sometimes say like, I'm feeling very wire mesh monkey baby to each other.
4:16Angela Santomero:Like when we're just like, things aren't going well and we're not connecting with our husbands. I'm like, I'm the wire mesh monkey baby. And so I will say that study stayed with me because that's a while ago that I was in college. But tell us about the wire mesh monkey mother so that everyone else can be as haunted as I am. Yeah. So that experiment was one that was run actually with a bunch of rhesus macaque monkeys by a man named Harry Harlow, who was a professor at the University of Wisconsin. Himself actually pretty wire fatherish. He was known for not being a particularly nice person, being pretty rough and gruff human being.
4:52However, he was the one who really put love into behavioral science, which is somewhat ironic. And he was responding at that time to decades of research by behaviorists who thought that all you needed to raise a healthy human being or any animal was just food, sleep, water, the basics. and that what kids would do is manipulate their parents into feeling certain ways so that they could get these more basic needs, food and shelter and so on. But that love was just kind of an arbitrary, useless, parasitic tool, okay, that kids use to manipulate their parents. He thought that was nonsense. And he conducted some experiments to test what's the importance of feeling just kind of the most basic elements of love and warmth and connection with a caregiver.
5:48And so he set up rhesus macaques. These experiments really set off the animal rights movement in the sciences as well. Correctly so, but yes. But what he did was house these rhesus macaque babies with one of several different kinds of mothers. One was the wire mother that distributed milk, all the nourishment it needed through a single mono nipple on the wire mother.
6:15Angela Santomero:Had a very creepy monkey head that still haunts my dreams, just for the record. You can imagine it. And then they also housed these monkeys in the space with the cloth mother. And the cloth mother was every bit as freakish in a way, but it had, it was inanimate, but it had a carpeted chest and had a little light bulb inside it. So it delivered some warmth. So it was a little snuggly. It provided that physical contact that, you know, parents and mothers and fathers give to their children. And the finding was, when these rhesus macaque babies were raised with the wire mother, they basically withered and died.
6:52They had everything they ostensibly needed, according to the behaviorists, and they didn't live very long. And if they did, they were highly anxious, neurotic, maladapted as they got older. Their lives were miserable. My favorite image, though, of the importance of love is one that Harry published in a paper of his where you see this rhesus macaque monkey eating off of the mononipple of the wire mother, but clinging to the cloth mother next to it. Love, connection is a basic need. Psychologists have made crystal clear on par with eating and sleeping. We have a neural architecture that's dedicated to rewarding us when we reach out, connecting with others.
7:39That's why the opposite of loneliness feels like happiness is because when we are connected with other people, we've got millions of years of human evolution going into our brains, encouraging us to do that more often. Because for most of human history, being isolated or disconnected from other people was a death sentence. You couldn't do it, right? And so when we're lonely, even today, when we're feeling isolated or disconnected, even if it's objective, we are physically alone without other people around us for periods of time. Or even perhaps more important, psychologically alone, we're feeling lonely, that subjective state.
8:15Our body spikes cortisol. We have a stress response. We get a bunch of cortisol in our bloodstream. The reason why that's bad for us is because cortisol reduces immune system functioning, creates cardiovascular trouble. That's why loneliness is on par with smoking 15 cigarettes a day in terms of the morbidity and mortality risk. And so social connection isn't just a luxury good. It's basic. But for years, decades, psychologists didn't realize this.
8:42Heidi Raykeil:Nick, I'm curious because I'm thinking about the cloth monkey. You can have in your own home, as many of us did during the pandemic, we got closer with our kids, our spouses, right? And it felt kind of nice. We reconnected with family members and our bubbles. But you can have the cloth monkey at home and still be missing something when you aren't taking part in interactions outside your house. You don't have to be alone to be lonely, even if you have intimate, close relationships. You can be. You can certainly feel that there are certain parts of your life that are where you're disconnected. So you can feel really connected at home, but feel like you have no friends at work, for instance.
9:20So, you know, we move around in different spheres of our lives and loneliness is to some extent a stable trait. So people can, that is something that can stick for a while, depending on your living situations and your relationships with other people. But the sense of being connected or isolated is also something that fluctuates from moment to moment. You can feel, you know, like you've got a really good relationship at home, but when you get into work, you can feel all alone and it doesn't feel good there either. Even just riding in on my train in the morning, you can feel totally disconnected from humanity.
9:53Like you are kind of surrounded by all these people, but alone together. And that doesn't feel good in that moment either. So the way to think about loneliness or isolation isn't as a stable thing that affects you everywhere, but it can also be very much a moment-to-moment thing as well.
10:10Angela Santomero:So we're going to accept the premise that social connection, you've done the research, we're accepting the premise, social connection, this feeling of connection to others is important for all sorts of physical and mental health. If this is a natural state of humanity, what's getting in our way? So let me start with one thing that's not getting in our way, and then I'll say what is. The thing that's not getting in our way is misunderstanding ourselves and how important social connection is to us. I don't think that's the big problem. People realize that they'd be happier if they had friends, that they would enjoy having a conversation if they could, that having people who feel grateful to you and love you is a good thing in your life.
10:50I don't think that's where the confusion comes from or the barrier. The barrier that we have documented, at least, is misunderstanding how much other people want that, too. thinking the stranger next to you on the train doesn't really want to talk to you and you so you won't try that your work colleague doesn't really want to have a meaningful conversation and so you talk about the weather in chicago today that you know the person that friend you had back in high school that teacher that had a really big impact on your life and you've always felt grateful to but you've never never mentioned it to them before that it wouldn't really matter to them right now, if you did, that this person who you know who's going through a hard time, this mom or dad that's going through a tough time with her kids right now, there's nothing you can do to help them.
11:36And so reaching out to express support to them won't matter much. It's underestimating how social other people are, thinking others don't want to connect with you. And that's what stops us mistakenly, we find in our work.
11:49Angela Santomero:I think also that we have to acknowledge, as you do in the book, the fear component. Yeah. Maybe more so for women that if I strike up a conversation with someone that is read as a signal that I would like to be romantically involved, have them follow me off the train, have them insert themselves in my life. Like, I think that the fear is a huge component of it. And it's not all ridiculous, the fear part of it. Yeah, for sure. So the part that comes with thinking others don't want to connect with you is some, or if they do that, it's going to be a bad thing is what creates the fear there. And that's all of these things are kind of built up together.
12:27Absolutely. And so there are risks and those are real. And I wouldn't, I certainly don't want to discount those in any way. I remember so very distinctly when I was in college. So my wife and I were dating in college. We got married just afterwards. And my wife was always, you know, in her dorm room going to sleep pretty early. And I would walk across campus, you know, to work in the lab until like one or two in the morning and then come back in the middle of night. And at one point it dawned on me the reason why we had different sleeping schedules because she didn't want to, she was afraid of walking across campus.
12:59Right. All alone in the middle of the night. I mean, I was a college football player. Like that didn't.
13:02Angela Santomero:Not on your mind. That didn't even occur to me. So those are definitely true. But even with those, if we account for those fears and risks, there are still opportunities that you could connect with somebody else. Women sitting next to each other on the train this morning, fellow moms who could, you know, connect and bond over the shared challenges they're having with their kids at the moment or the love for their kids. And they're not talking to each other either. So even backing that out, I think if we think about our social lives, there are opportunities that you'll find to connect with other people if you start looking for it that you're probably not taking at the moment.
13:37Heidi Raykeil:We're talking to Nick Epley about his new book, A Little More Social, and we'll be right back.
13:42Angela Santomero:Amy, when you take Nutrafol every day, and you know that I do, every day can be a good hair day. So many good hair days around here, Margaret.
13:51Heidi Raykeil:Killing it. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. And it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol supports hair health from within, working over time to deliver results you can see and feel.
14:07Angela Santomero:Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages and lifestyle factors. so you get support that's actually right for you.
14:23Heidi Raykeil:Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster-growing hair
14:28Angela Santomero:in three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing.
14:40Heidi Raykeil:That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code laughing. It's way more fun to plan a summer vacation when you know exactly how you're going to afford it. That's why Margaret and I both love MonarchCore. MonarchCore is the personal finance app that tracks everything. Accounts, investments, savings goals, and spending. Right now, you can get your first year of MonarchCore for half off. Just$50 with the promo code FRESH. MonarchCore takes the mental load of your finances way down. When I log into the MonarchCore app, all the info is there, right at my fingertips. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent.
15:22Heidi Raykeil:Monarch Core helps you set goals and map out big purchases like that summer vacation. Or you can even ask Monarch Core's AI assistant about your finances. How much did I spend on that vacation last summer? Or can I spend this much on this year's vacation without touching my savings? Use code FRESH at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just$50. That's 50 % off your first year at monarch.com with the code fresh.
15:49Angela Santomero:Moms are used to putting everyone else's needs before their own. And maybe, Amy, that's why often our tanks are running on empty by the end of the day, week, month, your mileage may vary. And that's why therapy through Rula can be a helpful resource for figuring out and asking for the help you need for a change.
16:10Heidi Raykeil:Rula knows that when it comes to therapy, costs can be prohibitive. That's why Rula provides in-network covered care for most major insurance plans. Rula partners with a network of over 23 ,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find just the right therapist based on your needs and preferences.
16:28Angela Santomero:You listen to this podcast and you know that Amy and I are both huge fans of therapy. It helps reset, clarify. It's something that I really think every mom can benefit from. You talk, You figure things out, and that's how things start getting better.
16:44Heidi Raykeil:Thousands of parents are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance and helping them and their families. And so can you. Visit Rula.com slash WFH to get started.
16:57Angela Santomero:Gonna spell it. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash W-F-H. Nick, I want to talk about set points. People's natural ability to do this. I get the life story of every cab driver. I know their mother's name. Like, I am naturally a person who loves talking to strangers and finding out as much as humanly possible. To me, a 20-minute cab ride is a great opportunity to find all about a country I've never heard of and how they operate there. And I love that interaction. Amy, what would you say, Amy? More introverted. I sit next to her in the cab.
Read the full transcript
17:39Heidi Raykeil:I'm like, how does she do this? Because I could be like, no, it's a nice day. You know, I feel like I wouldn't be able to get it started. I've seen Margaret draw people out, you know, waiters, the guy at the CVS, whatever that you know, how to do this conversation. And I feel like there's something about your open heartedness, but also your approachability that I'm like, I don't get it. I wouldn't know how to begin to do that. So that's the set point you're talking about. I certainly agree that we have different set points for this.
18:06Angela Santomero:How does that come to be and what role does that play in social connection? So there is no doubt that conversation and reaching out is a skill and it is one that you can develop. If you don't do it often, you won't know necessarily how to do it. That said, even before the skill component sets in though, there's also a mindset that I think is really important for how we approach other people. So Margaret, when you get into a cab, you see that as a 20-minute opportunity to learn something that you didn't know before, to travel to a place you've never been before, to hear about an experience you didn't even know was possible before.
18:45I was in LA just a couple of weeks ago. I had a 23-minute ride with my Uber driver. We were both in tears together at the end because he told me he was Iranian. He had lost his son in a protest in Iran, was imprisoned for six years when he went back to get his son's body. Just the most amazing heart-wrenching story that pulled us together in 23 minutes that I couldn't have imagined was in his head when we started. But the way we got there is the same way you get there when you get into the cab, which is you take an interest in someone and you feel comfortable asking them about the things that are important.
19:22I sat down in this Uber ride and I asked, would it be okay if I asked you how you felt about the war? Sometimes I'll ask people, What's your story? And it's clear when you take an interest in somebody, like a genuine, authentic, not creepy, weird, because the fear that you talked about before about, you know, women maybe having, men have a version of that too, which is I don't want to be seen as creepy.
19:44Angela Santomero:Right. I don't want to be seen as the guy who's going to follow you off the train. Exactly. I don't want to make you uncomfortable. I'm trying to be friendly here, right? But when you take a genuine interest in getting to know other people, I think a lot of that happens quite naturally. So let me just tell you a simple experiment we did where we had people in Chicago write down the questions that they would typically talk to somebody else about when getting to know them. They set those aside. And then maybe, Amy, you would come up with some of those questions about the weather or what somebody did for a living.
20:12We then had them set those questions aside and now write a couple of questions you would ask if you wanted to go a little deeper with somebody. And then they wrote down two other questions. And people could do this. It wasn't that you didn't have the power to do this. It was that people weren't choosing to do this. And I think that's a really important place to start to realize that you can do this. You can take an interest and they will then likely take an interest in you. But then, Margaret, to your point about set points, once you get started at this, it just becomes a habit, almost an addiction.
20:45It's a bit of a problem for me with my family, actually.
20:48Angela Santomero:They're like, can we please just order dinner? We do not need the waiter's home backstory. Exactly. Honey, can you pay attention to me tonight instead of the plumber sitting next to you? So I have to regulate this and that's a balancing act I'm trying to find. But it is a skill you develop when you practice it over time.
21:06Heidi Raykeil:And I guess I've always felt being with Margaret and watching her gifts in this way that I'm always amazed, too, that it doesn't feel awkward or worse performative. You know, I would feel like getting in an Uber, like, tell me all about yourself. But it's like, oh, lady, just shut up. You know, that it is genuine. And yet I then I witnessed Margaret doing it. And I never think that way. My Uber settings, I noticed recently are like set to like this person doesn't like to talk. I see. No music doesn't like to talk. And then nobody will talk with you, right? Right, right. Exactly. So they're like, oh, this lady doesn't like to talk.
21:40Heidi Raykeil:And isn't that a shame that the algorithm has decided that I'm a quiet one? But yeah, it feels like, oh, I can't do that. It would be weird. Like, where is this resistance? Is it actual? I mean, I guess there's times that I've tried to start a conversation with somebody and it didn't go well. But like, what is the downside to failing at this that seems so large? The downside is mostly in people's minds. It turns out when people reach out to ask others for help, for instance, they're much more willing to help than people expect. when people actually try to have a deep conversation with someone we find in our work, it goes way better than they expect it will.
22:12I mean, these gaps are massive. A lot of those fears are in your own head, but notice those fears are also self-fulfilling. Even if you don't have an algorithm that's putting it into mechanical practice, if you think that talking to Margaret would be unpleasant, you wouldn't try it and you wouldn't necessarily find out you were wrong. Or if you thought you're not very good at this, I don't have a gift. I would want to be a little gentle with that kind of language. A gift suggests that it's something you have or don't rather than something that you can develop or even choose to nurture and lean into and try.
22:48Everybody, I think, has this gift to some extent if they try and can be better at it. But pessimism itself is self-fulfilling. Optimism gets corrected. Margaret will try to talk to folks and we'll find out how it goes. And mostly we'll find out it's pretty fun When you say hi to people, mostly they say hi back to you. And if they don't, you carry on. It's okay. Amy, you won't find that out, right? If you're pessimistic, that won't get corrected because avoidance itself keeps you from getting the data you'd need to calibrate your beliefs.
23:19Angela Santomero:You say in the book, it's not one big fix. It's many small choices of connection. We talk to a lot of moms who are trying to foster this idea of connection in kids. I myself have a kid on the spectrum for whom this is particularly difficult in a bunch of ways. Difficult to have the instinct to connect. Difficult to have the skills to have those connections be successful. Still a very clear and defined desire to make those connections. But something gets lost in translation. And I recognize in myself during this conversation, I think middle child, desperate to be seen. And like all of the things that made me made this a sort of super skill of mine.
24:08Angela Santomero:But I have a child who really struggles with it. So it's another version of Amy's question. But how do we talk to people who are like, this is my nightmare. The phone ringing is the worst thing that can happen to me all day. Like, is this optional for people who want to optimize this part of their life? Or is it something that everybody should really be working on? I struggle with that a little bit. I'm a scientist. I look through a microscope and I try to figure out what's happening. I think we learn things that I think will change how people live their lives. I used to be highly socially anxious when I was younger.
24:48You know, before I went on my first job interview as an academic, which involved a public presentation at Princeton of all places, I lost more than 20 pounds going into that in a few weeks before.
24:59Angela Santomero:So this is not your natural state. It wasn't, maybe. So our natural state is a product of all our habits and our, you know, the things that we do and some of these set points that you talk about. But, you know, if we think about it that way, this is not my natural state in that sense. I have not always been comfortable talking to anybody, able to get a story out of someone because I'm genuinely interested in them, realizing the importance of walking around the hallways and saying hello to people as I pass. and smiling at them or expressing gratitude to people, right? Really opening myself up and saying that I love somebody or that I feel blessed by them, right?
25:38That language is not something that came to me naturally. It was something that I worked my way into. But we all start at different points on this. And I do think the data suggests that if you are reaching out a little more often in the opportunities that you have that are relatively easy and that you can learn to be good at, you will live a happier life. And if you note one of those, you can practice it routinely. And then maybe you'll notice another opportunity like that. And then another opportunity like that. Changing the way you approach other people isn't an all or nothing thing. It is a bunch of opportunities, a bunch of things that you can work on to make your life a little bit better.
26:20I don't know how exactly it will work for everybody, but I think in people's lives, you can find places where you'd like to connect and engage. It would probably be pleasant for you to do that, but you're worried that other people don't want to connect with you. And those are the moments where I'd encourage listeners to test it.
26:37Angela Santomero:And it strikes me as we're having this conversation, the opening example in your book is you speaking to a complete stranger on the Chicago L train.
26:46Heidi Raykeil:Yeah.
26:46Angela Santomero:Similarly, the New York subway, it might not be the place to start this process. Like there are a lot easier spaces and places where maybe with one of my kids, I might say, hey, while you're buying something at the snack bar, you might just ask the person at the snack bar, how's your day going? Is it really busy today? I mean, this is something we talk about all the time on the podcast, how to find the spaces and places that are easiest to start trying this. Like maybe just taking a dollar and going to the store by yourself and buying a candy bar. That's way outside. the realm. I said a dollar because I'm 150 years old, taking$10 and going and buying a candy bar.
27:28Angela Santomero:But that might be for one kid, an incredible stretch of their social connection. Just looking someone in the eye, handing them the money. You don't have to start by making a new friend on the New York City subway. Oh, right. No, no. Yeah, no. I've gotten to a point where I can do that. I will show my daughter this when we go to New York City and I walk on the train, just watch what can happen here and it can be amazing. But no, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that, I think the way to think about this, about social connection and crafting habits that allow us to connect better with other people, in particular by identifying places where our mistaken beliefs, our mistaken pessimism is holding us back, is to think about it in a way that's similar to exercise.
28:09So if you've got a physical therapist who comes to you and says, look, we'd love to get you in better physical shape. You'd like to be in better physical shape. You'll feel healthier if you do it, you feel happier if you do it, they don't put you in a marathon. Exactly. They say, well, look, you live two blocks from the grocery store. Maybe you could walk to the grocery store instead of driving, or maybe try taking the stairs every day instead of taking the elevator. So one kind of practical tip we suggest is doing a choice audit. So just think about your day yesterday or your kid's day yesterday about opportunities where they could have connected with somebody, they could have reached out to somebody, but they held back for some reason.
28:48And is that an opportunity that if you're faced with it again tomorrow, you could do differently? Just try it, right? Just test that belief that's holding you back and see how it goes. So when your kid goes in and buys the candy bar with, you know,$10 and says hi to the person in line and notices that felt kind of good, note that and then try that again. And then once you feel comfortable there, comfort will start to develop in other places too. Because once, at least for me, the way it happened, I kind of had a eureka moment on the train one morning where I had this wonderful conversation with a person who sat down next to me, surprisingly good.
29:27And I thought, what if we're all doing this? Like, what if we're all thinking other people don't want to talk to us, but we'd actually be happier if we connected with each other, had a nice little conversation. and what if it wasn't just this? What if it was showing up in all these other places where we have a choice to connect, but we're a little nervous about doing it? And that, you know, then I just had like an iceberg come into view of phenomena that looked like this. And I think that happens, can happen in your personal life too when you start noticing these things.
29:58Angela Santomero:Absolutely. We're talking to Nick Epley. He is the author of A Little More Social and we're going to put all these things together when we come back.
30:08Heidi Raykeil:It's so important for our kids to be confident in the water because then our kids will be safe. But then you have to deal with cold pools, cranky adults swimming laps right next to them,
30:17Angela Santomero:and getting in the water with the kids. Yuck. Amy, you're giving me flashbacks, but not anymore. Now there's Goldfish Swim School. Goldfish Swim School is a premier parent-trusted Learn to Swim brand designed intentionally for both kids and parents with a focus on confidence, safety, and progress, not just swim skills.
30:37Heidi Raykeil:Every detail at Goldfish is thoughtfully designed to create a golden experience from shiver-free, warm indoor pools to comfy and separate viewing areas for parents to professionally trained lifeguards on deck.
30:50Angela Santomero:And they offer year-round swim lessons for children as young as four months up to 12 years old with flexible scheduling and easy makeups through the Goldfish Swim
31:00Heidi Raykeil:School app. If you've been thinking about swim lessons or just wondering where to start, this is a great opportunity. Right now, Goldfish Swim School is offering a waived membership plus your child's first lesson free at participating locations.
31:13Angela Santomero:Just visit goldfishswimschool.com slash free and find a location near you and enroll using the promo code free. That's
31:21Heidi Raykeil:goldfishswimschool.com slash free promo code free. Quince has totally become my go-to. It's that in between weather right now in New York City. And I just got Quince's shorter length trench coat, cotton, a little bit of stretch. Makes me look super polished when I throw it on. I just find that Quince's pieces are the ones in my closet that I wear over and over.
31:43Angela Santomero:Quince makes it easy to refresh your everyday wardrobe this spring with clothes that feel as good as they look. They use premium materials like 100 % European linen, organic cotton, and ultra soft denim. And you can't beat the prices.
31:57Heidi Raykeil:Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses, and tops start at$30 and are top quality, breathable, and fashion forward.
32:08Angela Santomero:Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to quince.com slash fresh for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
32:28Heidi Raykeil:Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash fresh. So I feel like this is something you need to do this. You should just ask more questions. Very easy to see in other people, particularly in our children. Each of us have a kid starting college this fall, my third kid starting college. And I've witnessed that high stakes moving into the dorm, you know, and you can talk about it ahead of time. And then when they're actually happening, the kids are afraid to look at each other. and the parents are like, hi, Tyler, like just right across the hall, you're trying to get them to start conversations and the kids are just not having it, even though it should be sort of the most zero entry thing.
33:16Heidi Raykeil:You can see them, you know, making it harder than it needs to be. How would you talk to a kid who is entering that phase, which is so full of opportunity and seems so scary? So I have one entering this fall too, our fourth going to college. One thing that I find, at least this is not from data, this is more from observation when I talk to people, is that telling people about our results or trying to make them do these things doesn't work very well. You don't think your way into feeling different, you feel your way into thinking differently. And so one thought that I try to do with my kids, and I think it's kind of an inside joke among the kids, oh, here goes dad, is I just try to show them what can happen.
34:00So I was with my daughter, Sion, for her 17th birthday in New York last year. I was doing a speaking event there, and we brought her along. We just had a blast in New York. We're just going to super fun weekend. It was great. I spoke on a Monday. We had just had a blast over the weekend. But every time I got into the subway with her, I just told her, just watch this. Just watch what happens. And on every single subway ride, we had a great conversation with somebody. Not always a long conversation. Like we had one where you're like face-to-face, like you're kissing everybody, you're so tight, right?
34:35And I couldn't have a conversation with someone, but the guy was wearing a t-shirt. I pointed to it, said Manvacit on it. And I gave him this quizzical look, Manvacit. We couldn't even hear each other. He had his earbuds in. He turned his back to me. Sion just like had a heart attack. He's giving me the cold, little cold shoulder. He was actually pointing to me on the back what it meant. He was a Kellogg student on the north side of Chicago, in my home city of Chicago. A man, Vakit, is a man who advocates on behalf of women, right? And we had a smile and an acknowledgement there. So I think modeling is the way it works.
35:10And then just noticing, look how that went. So you can do that even before you go in. just watch what happens when I try to get to know your roommate. Just pay attention to that. You don't have to tell them what to do, but Margaret will go in and ask little Timmy, Timmy, tell me your story. And there it'll go, right? And if your kid's watching that, they'll maybe see how to do it. The good news, I think, for parents, though, when it comes to roommates at least, is that it often works shockingly well. So what really drives friendship is propinquity. Now, people aren't friends with all their roommates, of course.
35:45Angela Santomero:Wait, we have a 25-cent SAT word. You have to tell us what propinquity means. Propinquity is just being in close physical proximity. That's it. We tend to like the people we're around. We tend to become friends with the people we are around. Right. And so a lot of that just happens in college. You find, for instance, that in colleges where they are randomly assigned roommates, the odds that you become friends with your roommate is much higher than with any other randomly selected person. And you see friendships develop that don't develop when people choose their roommates. Like you see lots more interracial friendships when people are randomly assigned than when they choose their roommates.
36:23So my suggestion is to show the kids how that works and then take a deep breath. They'll probably figure it out when they're alone with each other for a long time.
36:34Angela Santomero:That's good advice. We've stumbled on something about this that I think is really, really interesting. My roommates from college and I, my closest friends of my life, you know, I mean, we're in each other's lives forever. It's like, it's a sisterhood more than friendship. And we often comment that we would never have become friends. We have very different political ideas, religious ideas. And I think especially in today's world, we are in this place of who do we and don't we talk to. And that core beliefs have become outsized as a connection to other people. And my husband's from a very small town in Western Texas, where we often go to the Fourth of July parade.
37:25Angela Santomero:And we always get chatting with the people around us and just have this lively, wonderful conversation about, again, people who are out living on ranches and just completely different lifestyles than we live in the suburbs of New York City. And I often think if we talked politics, we would hate each other. The minute we brought our political ideas into this conversation, we would be at fisticuffs, basically. And so So what are your thoughts about navigating those kind of divides? I mean, I'm leaning in and leading with my belief that connection should trump politics, no pun intended. Talk about that aspect that I think has crept very deeply into the fear of connecting with others.
38:12So let me note some research by a friend of mine on the north side of Chicago here, Eli Finkel, who's a professor at Northwestern. He and one of his PhD students, Paul Eastwick, look to see what is it that predicts, you know, who gets attracted to who, say, in a fast friends kind of setup or even in like speed dating, right? And people think it's going to be similarity. People think they're going to like others who are similar to them or who have their ideal traits, right? The traits that they think they want most in the other person. That turns out not really to predict much at all. There are things that happen in the conversation, in the moment, that pull people together that have nothing to do with these other things.
38:55Every dating app, though, on the planet presumes that similarity is the important thing because that's what people think matters. Once you're in an interaction with somebody, once you're connecting with someone, it just turns out not to be that important. We even find that once people are talking about the thing they're not supposed to talk about, like politics, even those conversations go way better than people expect them to. Go much better than people. In fact, we find in our work that when people have a dialogue, an actual conversation, not monologuing to each other, right, not speechifying to each other, but having an actual dialogue, they have just as positive an experience having a conversation with someone they disagree with as someone they agree with.
39:40So the problem, though, is that if our beliefs are that we're going to like people who are similar to us. We'll seek those people out. We'll move to places where there are people like us. We'll choose to talk about things only with folks who agree with us. And we'll avoid topics that we actually, I think, could talk about a lot better than we think we could. My bet, Margaret, is that if you brought up politics to the folks in West Texas, they'd slap you on your back and tell you how silly you were. And you'd rib them back.
40:11Angela Santomero:Well, it's funny because I was using it as an example, but we're at a parade and like the tea party and the QAnon and like all these like super right floats come. And then there always comes down the street, a little democratic float with like four people on board. And I always jump up and cheer and start. And they're like, there's New York for you. And it does. It's funny. Like it goes fine once we've connected on other things. It's very true. Also, it's important to make a distinction between broadcasting and conversing or talking when you're talking to one-on-one with people, mostly people like each other.
40:41They get along. Mostly we find things to talk about and connect over. So it's when we're broadcasting, that's where it becomes harder. You need to understand me. Yeah. And you're not really having a dialogue with anybody. It's dialogue that connects you with other people. So how would I think about navigating this? One, is I would be aware that your beliefs about similarity and how important those are for making friendships are probably wrong. We spend the summer in rural Wisconsin, out in the woods. I grew up in middle of nowhere in Iowa, out in the country. I love my neighbors up there, and I'm sure we have very different political beliefs.
41:15I know we do because we talk about it sometimes, but it doesn't keep us from being friends with each other. And it never, it shouldn't, I don't think. And it doesn't as much as people expect that it will. So I think this is another example of a barrier to lean into a little bit. You think that you can't engage with folks who are different from you. Well, test it a little bit. And in contexts where similarity is ignored, like random pairings in dorm rooms, kids kind to figure it out, just like you did, Margaret, with your sisterhood in college.
41:44Heidi Raykeil:But it doesn't mean that not trying is a great way to not connect. Was the wrong thing. Yeah. No, you're not friends with everybody. I don't mean to sound sycophantic here, but yeah, it's not as big a barrier as you might. But not making eye contact is not a great way to meet the people across the hall from you. Right.
42:00Angela Santomero:Before we close, I want to talk, I thought this was really interesting in the book, about environments and how our structured environments are barriers to the kind of social connection that you're talking about. This is one of those things you read in a book and you're like, oh my gosh, how come I didn't know this before? How did I never notice this? Yeah. So there are lots of places where we structure our environments to kind of keep to keep to ourselves. And I think that's becoming an increasing issue as well too, right? So I was in an airport the other day. This was in LaGuardia, actually. And, you know, you go up to a restaurant and instead of ordering from somebody talking to a person now, right, you type into a screen and you all stand there in silence, waiting for some bag to appear under some conveyor belt, you know, on some conveyor belt that you pick up and take.
42:50There's never an interaction there. And increasingly, our lives are getting structured to be ever more efficient in a moment and yet a lot of that efficiency is cutting out social stuff. So you're not going to the grocery store to shop. And in any one of those moments, that might be pretty nice, but what you lose are connections with other people that you can't have foreseen and you don't know that you have missed.
43:14Angela Santomero:Right. Leave at the door, take a picture, text it to me. Don't talk to me. Yeah. Don't talk to me. Right. Yeah. I mean, and it is a totally new thing. I describe in the book a woman in Italy who, after a storm, The police and fire department came by just to check on folks to make sure they were okay. And they went into this home and Maria was not okay. But she had died two years before and was not noticed. That is a distinctly modern phenomena. I would suggest that at no point in human history would that have been possible, that you could have been dead for two years without anybody noticing that you were not there.
43:49For most of human history, we were connected to other people on a regular basis. Now you can wake up in the morning, get your breakfast that you'd ordered through DoorDash. You can work from home, you know, type on your computer. You can order dinner out, you know, take out, get Instacart to deliver your stuff to your door without ever having to see anybody at night. You sit home and watch Netflix. we can choose to spend more time alone now than we've ever been able to before. Which I think means that these mistakes, this pessimism that we have about how other people will respond to us are more problematic now than they've ever been.
44:30Because we can put them into practice in a way we never used to be able to. And I think that is something to take note of. When are you choosing to make yourself isolated in a way that might not be good for you, sometimes without even noticing it? And once you start to see those moments, it suggests places where we can choose a little differently. Choose to connect with other people in ways that will lift our lives up and those we reach out to as well.
44:55Angela Santomero:Absolutely.
44:56Heidi Raykeil:Wow. I really needed this conversation. I think this is an absolutely terrific book, A Little More Social, How Small Choices Create Unexpected Happiness, Health, and Connection. And we're going to put Nick's book in the show notes for this episode. You can just click to buy it. It's available wherever books are sold. But Nick, tell our listeners where else they can find you and your work. I have started doing LinkedIn, which I'm kind of enjoying a little bit because I share stories about people being a little more social. But that's the only place. All other social media makes me miserable. So that place and Google my name on the Internet, you'll find my website.
45:30Angela Santomero:This was an excellent conversation. I really enjoyed this book. If you're a me, I enjoyed this book. If you're more of an Amy, you'll enjoy this book. It's just about these small choices. If we made it sound intimidating at all, the book does not read that way at all. It's very, very approachable how you can start being just a little more social. Nick, thanks so much for talking to us today. Thank you both so much. It's been great being here.
46:04Heidi Raykeil:Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just$15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. Thank you.
From the publisher
Why do we avoid small opportunities for connection with strangers, even when humans are wired for that very connection? Behavioral scientist Nicholas Epley, author of the new book A LITTLE MORE SOCIAL, explains why modern life leaves so many people feeling disconnected—and how small social choices can dramatically improve our well-being.
Nick explains the science behind loneliness, why humans are biologically wired for connection, and how our fear of awkwardness keeps us from reaching out to others. From conversations with strangers on the subway to helping kids build social confidence, this episode explores how meaningful relationships are created through everyday interactions.
The conversation covers:
Why people underestimate how much others want connection too
How smartphones, remote work, and modern convenience reduce social interaction
Why talking to strangers often goes better than we expect
The importance of modeling curiosity and openness for children
Why meaningful conversations matter more than surface-level similarities
How to become “a little more social” through small daily habits
Here's where you can find Nick:
www.nicholasepley.com
Buy A LITTLE MORE SOCIAL: https://bookshop.org/a/12099/9780593319543
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
