Fresh Take: Rachael Shepard-Ohta and Caitlin Wilder of "You're So Right" Podcast

25:18I do sometimes worry that there's almost like an over-normalization of certain things, though. So, you know, it's like kind of trendy now to talk about neurodivergences and like kind of trendy to talk about postpartum rage and like all these types of things. And again, it's important to normalize these things and bring awareness to them. But it almost sometimes feels like it just normalizes them for people. And so they don't seek out support because they just assume, oh, there's tons of people who deal with this. Like, it's fine. It's normal. I'll get through it. Right. I think there is a really fine line because I do think it is important to normalize.

25:48Some postpartum experiences are crazy. You know, you do have more maybe anxiety than you would if you hadn't had a baby. But I think it's also important when I will talk about things that you might experience postpartum, I always say this is normal. But if it feels like more than this to you or it feels like it's actually affecting your day to day, like we are huge proponents of finding a therapist who specializes in maternal mental health, like you don't have to white knuckle your way through motherhood if this feels like more than just what is a quote unquote normal typical experience. So I think it is a really fine line of let's normalize this so you don't feel isolated in having these thoughts.

26:28You don't feel like you're a bad mom for having these thoughts. But let's also make sure we make it clear there is a line where there might be more help that you need or nobody wants to dismiss what you're experiencing. Exactly. It's something that we think about a lot as we talk about our kids on a podcast and we try really hard to keep the focus on ourselves. I don't talk about my kids. I don't say, you know, Bob went to here today and here's what happened to him. I don't even have a child named Bob. And so, but I, I think another interesting issue is how to talk about our children and our experiences, which are sometimes quite negative and bad and painful without it feeling like I think there's a lot of blowback online and in person of like you're ungrateful or you think there's something wrong with your kid or you're saying bad things about your kid or you don't accept your kid for just how they are.

27:26And it's like, wait, I'm actually just seeking help for something that's actually going on with my kid that is a problem. How do you think about that issue? Well, one, I think a lot of that is projection. When people come at you for saying like your child is going to read this. It's like, you think in 12 years, my child is finding an Instagram caption where I mentioned that they were being kind of an asshole that day. And that's just like, we've got bigger fish to fry if we think that is what's going to be going on. But I do think there is, again, a very fine line. And Rachel and I both really, we really respect our children's privacy in that if there is something that's difficult going on with our child, we reframe it about how it's affecting us or what we're trying to do.

28:08My son, when he was like two, he was a real hitter. Like he would just hit kids. He would walk by a kid and just like reach out and hit him. And I'd be like, what is going on? And I didn't know any other friends talking about that. I didn't see anybody else talking about it. So of course I'm like, oh my God, my son is a sociopath. He's going to have to go to like a boy's like detention facility. Like what is going on? But then when I saw, you know, I would start talking about on Instagram of like, yeah, we went to my gym and had to leave a little early because my kid is going through this phase, but I know it's just a phase and here's how it makes me feel.

28:41So again, it's like sharing a little bit about what's happening, but I'm not like going into great detail about what exactly my son is doing. It's more as a mom, it makes me feel this way. So maybe if you're experiencing as a mom and you're feeling it this way too, you're not alone in that. So I think that's really how we try to handle that. But I do think there is a very fine line in making it kid-focused versus the experience of the mom dealing with that situation. And I think that the conversation about motherhood has moved from the Doris day, keeping everything perfect, but there is still this pressure to find motherhood good.

29:23And that my initial experience with motherhood was really not good. I was not having a good time. I was in mental illness, had three kids in diapers. I was in my late 30s. I knew how good life could be without kids. And I was finding life with kids much less good. Yeah. Yeah. That's a conversation that is just hard to have because I don't regret having children. I love my kids. They're awesome. But I sacrificed a lot to have kids and I wasn't always sure that it's not even whether or not having kids was the right choice. But I feel like there is this third rail of talking about how kids make women's lives more difficult, that people are like, nope, that conversation is not happening.

30:13People are so uncomfortable with ambivalent feelings. They want motherhood to either be really hard and they want to see you as like the hot mess mom, or they want to see you like performing this perfect motherhood where you're just like a whimsical fairy mom, like trotting through the garden with your kids and just enjoying every single moment. And most of us have the experience of both of those things at different points in time. Some people have really, really tough babies and they are kind of white knuckling it through that stage. And then they love being a mom once their kids are older. That's me.

30:43And vice versa. Yeah, some people are real baby people. They love those baby snuggles. They love breastfeeding. And then they really struggle with, you know, behavior or things like that as their kid gets older. And I think it's okay that we normalize that like not every phase is going to be our favorite. We can love our kids and love being a mom and also find it really hard. All of those things at the same time. Those types of things don't go as viral, right? Like the internet loves polarity and they love like really strong opinions either way. And there's just not a lot of room for that nuance, I think.

31:13It is crazy though, when you post something on Instagram that is not 100 % positive. Like I shared that during my early pregnancy, I wasn't happy when I found out I was pregnant. I was freaked out. And you're allowed to be so grateful you're pregnant and also be like, oh, my God, did I was this actually the right choice? But people will come at you on the Internet. And it's crazy. And it's like the forbidden thing to say. Yes. Like, well, you shouldn't be having children then. Or like there's so many people who can't have kids and And like, this is how you're acting. And it's like, well, this is my reality.

31:50Like, this has nothing to do with that. Or you complain something about having a kid or having a hard day and people will be in your comments like, well, you really shouldn't have had children then if you're going to complain about it. And it's like, what? This is insane. Like, as Rachel and I say all the time on our podcast, it's the patriarchy. Yes. It's just like women are not allowed to have nuanced thoughts and feelings and share those publicly. We can't take that on. You used to get a lobotomy for that. Yeah. Like depressed, not loving motherhood. Okay. Half of your brain has to go in a jar.

32:20I'm sorry. That's the only solution. Right. Yeah. I am talking to Rachel and Caitlin from the You're So Right podcast, and we'll be right back.

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33:58I think that when we started the podcast, we were so afraid to say anything that would make a mom feel like they were being judged. but that if all parenting choices are exactly equal, why are you giving people parenting advice, basically? And yes, the lady in the drugstore doesn't know your kid, so you shouldn't take their advice. But if I think I have information that will actually help you have a better outcome in your situation or with your kids, like I would say feeding your kids a snack as soon as they get home from school is universally good advice. Like kids come home, they're hungry, they're tired.

34:40We say feed them and then leave them for at least half an hour. Like feed them and leave them. Love that. Now, if you don't do that, it's not like, well, good luck having a psychopath as a child. I think that's what we're talking about. People fill in the unwritten part with these people think I'm terrible because I don't have a Martha Stewart snack tray. I'll give them whatever I got in my pockets when they get off the bus. So how do you address talking about your experiences without saying like my way is better? I struggle with this all the time. I think it's still really hard because people also, I don't know, I think people just kind of project onto you whatever whatever their idea of your life is and what your circumstances are.

35:24So, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I did sleep train my first with like a pretty harsh method and it really didn't feel good. So then I tried something else and it's like, I try to get across to parents, look, I get it. I get why you would choose that. I get why it's attractive. I did it. I get it. And I still think that there's a better way. And some people really just aren't ready to hear that. I think, I think parenting brings up so much of our own emotional baggage and brings up so much shame and fear that we're going to do something wrong. So if we perceive that someone is telling us we did a wrong thing, even if that's not what they're saying, I think it just can be really, really hard.

36:05So I think we can only really share our own perspectives and our own opinions and people can take those or leave them. And then we can share like evidence-based information, which again, you can take that or leave that. If you want to leave it, you're arguing with science. So that's kind of, you know, your own problem. But that's kind of how I approach it, at least. I think, too, when we share information, and I'm sure this is the same for you, Margaret, like, you know where you're coming from, you are coming from a good place of, hey, here's a different way of doing something that maybe you haven't thought of.

36:36And like, it works really well for us. So if somebody chooses to misinterpret that, and make it more negative, that's just I can't take that on. I'm not responsible when I know where this is coming from and where my heart is. I mean, we would never post anything on Instagram if we ever thought about what the other side would think about this. Because there's always going to be somebody you could say, I love oranges. And then the comments you're going to get, so you hate lemons? Yes. How dare you? I can't believe you're saying that you hate lemons. And you're like, I just said I like oranges. Like, what is happening here?

37:11But I think especially like Rachel said, when it comes to things about being a mom and your kids, all we want is the best for our kids. So if you're living on an all lemon diet and you hear somebody say, I like oranges, you're going to internalize that as, oh, my God, I've been doing the wrong thing because this person, they're telling me I did it wrong because I was giving lemons and not oranges. And it's like, again, that's not on us. That's just how people are going to take it. And there's only so much you can do to try to kind of calm that down. And I think it's spaces and places, too, in terms of the difference between being like supermarket crone and podcaster.

37:51turn. It's like if you're coming to me and saying I'm having a problem with my baby's sleep or I'm having a problem with a really angry kid at three o 'clock in the afternoon, it's an easier opening to say, have you considered or here are some structures that work for some people in this space versus just like attacking people in the grocery store, which I promise I'm trying not to do anymore. I think that's what's funny about social media, too. It's like people will get mad at, you know, me or Caitlin for posting about certain things or saying things in a certain way. And it's like, well, you are following me.

38:31You signed up for my opinions, like not the other way around. Right. Or like you're listening to my podcast. Like I'm going to share my ideas on my podcast or whatever it is. I think people in like this age of perfectly curated algorithms, people forget that not every single thing that comes across their feed is actually going to land with them and be perfectly tailored advice to their specific situation in life and kids. And that's okay. You really can just scroll by and find something that does resonate. I will never forget, Rachel and I both have shared that something that helped us when we had babies was going to sleep at the same time our baby went to sleep.

39:06So going to bed at like 7.30. And Rachel posted that once. And I don't know how it got on the other side of the internet, but every comment was like, that doesn't work for me. I can't believe you would suggest that. That doesn't work in my life at all. And Rachel was just like, okay, well, not every piece of content has to be specifically for you and something that works for you. But it was crazy. I'm not coming to your home and tucking you into bed. I'm just making an observation about my own life. Take it or leave it. Take it or leave it. And by leave it, just like scroll to the next reel. Like you don't have to, like Rachel was not a crone in a supermarket coming up and grabbing you at 730 being like, get to bed now.

39:51It was crazy. I forgot about that, Caitlin. Yeah, that was crazy. I must have blocked that out because of a trauma response because I actually completely forgot about that video. That was insane. It was insane. It was wild. Internet dialogue. What a world out there. All right. Let's turn to very important things. What are we talking about in pop culture? Bravo. Bravo. I mean, bravo. Bravo. Bravo effing bravo. Yeah, we can't stop talking about the Amanda and West and Sierra of it all on Summer House. I don't watch it. Oh, my God. It just went by. I mean, I didn't watch Vanderpump and I was like, Scandaval, am I going to dive in?

40:24And I kind of listened to some podcasts and caught up enough and watched one reunion. But I was like, I can't go back to the beginning and get invested in Scandaval. And now I keep hearing Amanda and West. You can, though. You can. You can and you should. Summer House. It's just floating by in the background. That's your loss, to be honest with you. Yes, because it's not in our background. It is in your forefront of our minds every day. People who live together in a house? Yeah, so it's basically a share house. It started a long time ago, so they were much younger when it first started. Oh, like kids, like young people going to the shore?

40:58Yes, they were going to the Hamptons in a share house. In the Hamptons, yeah. So that's basically the premise. And so there's this huge fallout love triangle situation with best friends. Love square. Love square. It's actually, yeah, it's very, very messy. Yes, layered. Very layered. I'm also, Caitlin, I don't know if I even told you this yet, but I just started Real Housewives of Rhode Island. That I'm doing. I'm in, I have to say, this is such an old person thing to say. I can't tell them apart. They all look like the same person to me. Well, fair. I have that problem with Mormon wives. I'm like, I need them to put like jersey numbers on.

41:31I know. Like, or names. I'm like, is there a difference between the woman with the rich boyfriend and the nosy one? Like, they're the same person. Right. Yes. I know. They do look very similar. That was like Lisa Barlow and Meredith Marks, though, at the beginning of Salt Lake City. It took me three seasons to tell the two of them apart. And now I'm like, they don't even look alike. Very true. But it's funny. And the Mormon wives, I'm just like, I still don't know who these people are. Caitlin is very into the Mormons. Yeah. Caitlin can help you. She is very tapped into Mormon culture. I'm very, I'm, as we call ourselves, a nevermo, meaning I was not ever Mormon and have nothing to do with Mormonism, but I'm very tapped into the Mormon presence in pop culture.

42:11Are you team Taylor, Frankie, Paul, or Dakota? Taylor, Frankie, Paul. Interesting. I'm team Taylor, team TFB. I'm team both lunatics who need to be in help, not on television. That's how I am, Taylor. If that was an option. Team, get them both off TV and into therapy, please, immediately. But a televised therapy. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like, let's keep it on the TV. I'm just so fascinated by the dynamic of that group that like this one absolute lunatic is the only person who people want to watch. Like the alchemy of reality television is so interesting to me. No, it's wild. And Caitlin and I did talk about this on our podcast because I actually did not like the choice of having her at The Bachelorette.

42:54It was insane. I was like, I don't care to watch her. Yeah, I don't want to watch. And Caitlin loved it. I was ready to watch. One of those examples of us having a healthy disagreement. I'm with you, Rachel. I just was like, this person should not be dating. No, it felt exploitative. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it tipped into like the hot mess is almost, it's too, it's like the producers are doing it. Like I want to think that it's real. I actually think this is like a generational change that my generation watched reality TV. and the whole premise was that it was quote unquote real. And now reality TV is becoming very meta.

43:37Like, oh, we're talking about our Instagram campaigns. I find that very off-putting, but I think that's an age thing. Like, I feel like I'm like, well, it's gotta be real. It's like, I get that I knew it wasn't real. Yeah. We're with you. We don't like when the storylines start to talk about like the bloggers and their like life being famous. That's actually why I was gonna say, that's why I like Real Housewives of Rhode Island right now, because they are so un-media trained. It's raw. It's very raw. You can tell that they have zero idea what they're doing. And I love that. It feels very like old school, first couple seasons of Real Housewives of New Jersey.

44:13Like, I just love it. I agree. I just need them to wear jerseys with their names on them. And then I will enjoy that show. I know the girl from The Bachelor. I'm like, oh, that's the girl from The bathroom but I also Ashley I feel like it's depressing I felt this way about like the star like I don't like it when it's like Star Wars and then they make a show about their kids and their kids are all at war I'm like I had a happy ending and I feel like Jared and Ashley had a happy ending and now you're watching them and now you're seeing each other and they're eventually going to get divorced fail and I'm like I liked it when it ended at the wedding I don't want to watch them hate each other's guts, which seems like where it's going.

44:52Yeah. What's going on in music? What are we listening to? I'm a big Noah Kahn fan. So that is all I've been listening to since his new album came out last week. I'm like your mother. I'm like, I've heard that name, but I don't know his work. He's great. He's really great. If you have any depression, you dive into the depression or you feel better. Oh, yeah. No, you have to fully dive into it. You got to dive in to get out. Crying songs, we call it. Yeah. If you want to cry, if you want to like dig up all of your childhood traumas. It's perfect. Yeah. Okay. Noah Kahn. I've definitely heard that name from the Youngs, but I'm not in.

45:27Caitlin, where are you? I mean, I'm honestly, anytime I'm in the car listening to music, I'm listening to music my children want to listen to. So it's a lot of the Sing soundtrack, though, which I'm actually, I will say, though, there are some bangers on the Sing soundtrack. And this is the most embarrassing thing I've ever said, and I'll say it here. I was never like a U2 fan and in the second sing movie there's this lion that's it's Bono and he sings U2 songs and literally the other day I said to my husband I've never liked U2 until I saw this lion singing it and I get U2 now and he was like don't ever tell another person that but I'm like wow I literally was like I get it now you just need it to be an animated lion I was lying with a trauma backstory to really sell it.

46:16And you know what? I'm okay. It's my truth. It's my truth. Concerts? Summer concerts? Are we going to summer concerts? Again, Noah Kahn. Tickets were very hard to find, but my father-in-law got them for us. Nice. Where's he playing? He's playing here in San Francisco at the Giant Stadium. I think it's all baseball fields. Baseball stadiums. Baseball diamonds. Baseball diamonds. Baseball diamonds. Where the baseball happens. Don't ask us what our sports are. I can tell we're not going to be talking about the NFL draft at this point and whether or not. No. Only the sweet videos. We can talk about Klay Thompson and Megan Thee Stallion.

46:51Okay. She's just leaving. I just heard she's leaving Moulin Rouge in New York because they're having problems. Yes. Yes. Very sad. We don't like it. Do we think that Travis Kelsey is the right husband for Taylor Swift? I think he is the right husband for now. Okay. And we will see how it goes. First husband. maybe. Let's see what happens. He'll give her some beautiful, tall children. Yes. If that's what they decide. They'll be very rich. You know, it's funny because I was a huge Taylor Swift fan my whole life and then Life of a Showgirl came out and it kind of like broke the spell for me because it was so bad.

47:27I see everything in a different light now, which I hate because I loved loving her. Yeah. Do you think the album was bad or do you think it's like you're aging out, You know, like it's like, OK, it's time to leave that all behind now. No, I think the album was just really bad. Yeah, I think it was just really bad. I saw her at the Arrows tour, had the best time ever, loved Tortured Poets Department and Showgirl just really, really turned me off. Rachel likes sad music. I like my sad music. Rachel likes to cry. You're like, I'm not going back to pop happiness. I don't care how happy you are with Travis.

48:01No, leave me out of it. I don't want to hear about it. That is exactly Rachel's take. Like we could definitely do seven more hours of Bravo, but we are actually going to end this podcast. If you want to hear more from Rachel and Caitlin, tell us about your podcast, where to find it, where to find you. Well, our podcast is called You're So Right. So you can find us You're So Right on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We also have our podcast on YouTube, which we say we have a very niche elite audience because there's only like 100 people that watch the videos, but it's extra content there and you get to see us reacting to each other, which is very fun.

48:38And then on our own Instagrams, I'm on Instagram at Wilder Beginnings. And my handle on Instagram is at HeySleepyBaby. Awesome. We will link to all of those places. This was such a fun conversation. I could do three more hours on all things Bravo. Well, we'll have to have you on ours sometime so that we can talk more because this was so fun. But I got to catch up on Summer House first. Yes, please do. How many seasons? Do I have to go back to the beginning? You can start at season three. You don't need to know the workuses. No, I was going to say three or four. All right. Three or four. All right.

49:09I got my work cut out for me. I got my homework assignment. Perfect. Put it on in the background. It's great background TV. That's it. It's a laundry folding show. I call it laundry folding show. Yes. Exactly. Thanks so much for talking to me today. This was so fun. And I'm going to go turn on Summer House. Thanks, Margaret. Thank you.

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