Fresh Take: The Custody Queens on What Parents Need to Know About Divorce and Separation

0:00Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college pc. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take. From what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood, this is Margaret. And today I am talking to Kristen Holstrom and Samantha McBride, certified family law specialists and hosts of Custody Queens on Air, where they deliver expert family law insight, bold strategy, and refreshingly real talk on custody and divorce.

0:57Welcome, Kristen and Samantha. Thank you for having us. We are very excited to be here. So how did you get together? How did you get into this line of work separately? Samantha, why don't you start us off? How did you find yourself on this path? So I have a couple of attorneys that are in my family. My mom's an attorney. My grandfather was a judge. And so I was kind of exposed to the law really early on. I wasn't a hard sell on family law by any means. And then the infamous story between Kristen and I is that I applied for this family law firm with no experience on Craigslist. Kristen hired me because I played Division One soccer and for no other reason.

1:42And I was very grateful and kind of learned everything from the ground up here. I've been with Kristen for about 11 and a half years now. We really just got into custody and kind of understanding just the complexities of custody and how difficult it is just for people to parent in general, regardless of the family life dynamic or the court litigation part of it. So it was just something that was really of interest to Kristen and I. And she came up with Custody Queens. It's a great title. I got it right away. I was like, I know what we're talking about with the Custody Queens. We hit the ground running and we haven't looked back.

2:19And Kristen, I guess we heard a lot of your side of the story, but how did you get into family law specifically? My dad is a very prominent family law attorney. He didn't start initially in family law, but that's where he ended up. I worked for him. I still work for him. He'll say I was fired at some point. I'll say I quit, you know, not a meeting of the minds. Sounds like dad and daughter. Yeah, but he's probably one of the greatest family law attorneys. And I did not grow up with any sort of silver spoon. So everything I have learned has been from the trenches and all of the scars that are on my back of learning real life mistakes.

2:56And naturally, I worked for him during the day, went to law school at night and kind of jumped right in. And Sam just came at, I think I was like four years in when she came in and I gave her the same method. Let's throw you in the deep end and let's see how you do. And she did amazing. And she's probably the closest person to me at this point. but we bring such different attributes to our clients and our cases, but we're always aligned, but we generally have sometimes different approaches. And so I think that's what makes it so great when her and I are working a case together, I'm more willing to kind of sling the mud when necessary.

3:32And Sam can give you every code and every footnote and every prevailing case law there is. It's been a brilliant and very satisfying relationship to do this with Sam. And her and I just were really attracted to the custody cases. I think between her and I, we'd probably bring in half of the referrals into the business with respect to just people that we've met, people that we've actually been against. That's always the greatest referral when someone's asking for your card after you just, you know, kick their butt in court. Yeah. But it's been a dream. And I think Sam and I have always been on the same mission is that no matter what, we want to educate people.

4:09We don't want to have clients for 10, 15 years. That's not what I want. I'm a mom of three. Being a mom is an absolute amazing experience. And it's also the most challenging thing you'll ever do in your entire life. It's way, way harder than being a lawyer. I will tell you that. And so we wanted to give families, moms, wives, people that are scared of separation, or they don't know if this is going to last long-term. We want to give these women the power to be able to make decisions for themselves without necessarily relying on an attorney for the next 18 years. That's not what we want for you and it's not what we need from our clients.

4:44And clearly, this is a situation that no one expects to find themselves in. No matter how many statistics we read, we get married or partner with people who we generally love and have some respect for, and then we have children and imagine raising them together. Are there commonalities to the experience of people who end up in custody battles, particularly? Or does it come from every different kind of family structure? The reality is anywhere you look, you're going to find something unique about a family and you're also going to find a lot of common ground. Every family is different. If you wrote a story of your family and it seems for all purposes like it's very similar to the person next door, the more you really get into the intricacies of that family, the more you'll realize that it's unique.

5:40And because it's unique, it's hard to totally navigate the process. that's what really made Kristen and I so interested in this area of law because there's very specific laws but there's a lot of interpretation of those laws and then there's what you perceive your family needs and what the other party or parent perceives that their family needs and how do we hopefully get on the same page if we can and if we can't what areas of conflict do we need a third party to resolve for us so that as Kristen mentioned we're not in court your whole life. You don't want your children to be a product of that, certainly.

6:16And conflict, I think everyone can agree, although you can't always prevent one side from producing a major amount of conflict in your life, you can seek to try to mitigate it with a clear court order and with very specific orders that are tailored to your actual family. And so I think while it's always a great idea to talk to other individuals about their family and have some camaraderie with it. I do think it's important to like know your gut and know what's right for your family and be able to advocate for those specific needs because all families are different. Do you represent fathers and mothers equally?

6:53Do you represent more mothers than fathers? How do you make decisions about who to represent? Is it just who comes in the door first? Pretty much it's who reaches out. I think we're at a point in our careers where we are choosing our clients more than just taking what's calling. To add on to what Sam just said, I don't think that custody and family law discriminates. I think it happens to more people than it doesn't affect at some point. What I really try to get people to understand is the judges don't know you. They don't know your kids. They don't know what their favorite cereal is. You get most of the time 20, 30, if you're lucky, 40 minutes on a morning calendar, or you get a trial date a year out.

7:32So there is a lot of emotions with respect to family law. And so you have to be able to understand, and I don't want to say it's a game, but you have to be able to understand how this process works. So you have to know when to litigate, when to give the other party time to deal with those emotions. I almost require all of my clients to see a therapist because one, we're not qualified. Two, we're way more expensive. And three, everybody needs a therapist. A therapist needs a therapist. But you have to be able to navigate those emotions you're going to go through. And over a two-year process, you're going to have some of the highest highs and some of the lowest lows.

8:07But I really, really, really do my best to be like, okay, let's file this motion. Let's give them time to decompress, process everything. You have guilt. You have resentment. You have anger. You have jealousy. You have nobody else is going to help raise my kids. You have all of these emotions. And I do believe if done right at some point, maybe it's three months, maybe it's six months. At some point, both parties are going to realize they love their kids more than they hate their ex. And once we can get both people to that point and we can get these parents to navigate decisions the best way possible and not really want a judge to make those decisions, we are all heading in the right direction.

8:49and I think it truly affects probably three out of four women at some point. You mean either for themselves, someone in their family, a child who they're coming into that child's life. It comes in all sorts of different. It comes in everywhere. It comes in everywhere. It comes in everywhere. And don't get advice from your moms on Facebook groups. You know, that's a little disclaimer. Although I get a ton of referrals from my Facebook mom groups, I always say there's a really good get a recipe recommendation. But like Sam said, every case is different. Every case needs its own strategy. And you really need an attorney that's going to tell you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear.

9:27That's not what you're paying them for. We do have a Facebook group. And sometimes people ask about their marriages. Often, I'm having this problem. Does this seem kind of to be leading to divorce or separation, or is this something I should be working on? So for people who are in those kind of situations, at what point should they talk to an attorney? It feels, I guess, like a big commitment, like you're making a big decision to involve an attorney. But is that true? Like, what is the best time when you're wondering if your marriage is going off the rails to start having a conversation with an attorney?

10:05So I think that's an excellent question. And I'm glad that you brought up the Facebook group because I think it's really important to have that camaraderie, to have that understanding, to not feel isolated when you're in a situation. So we always encourage you to bounce ideas off other people because you never know who really is going to impact your life. Maybe you don't have a close friend that's gone through it. And so maybe it is really helpful to kind of get out there and feel that sense of community. So that's important. What we're distinguishing from is at some point there is a line where you are, instead of going to the attorney, to your question, you are maybe receiving advice from someone who's trusted, but maybe not qualified in your matter, right?

10:49They might be qualified in their own life. You might end up taking a similar road, but you never know why a particular road is important until you've actually talked to an attorney. I do not believe that there is any such thing as it's too soon to talk to an attorney. I believe that it is really important to talk to an attorney, probably right when you're getting in a group. Maybe you're not ready to do it if you're in a mom's group and you're going through this, but there's never too early to call. Most attorneys, not all attorneys, but most attorneys, they'll offer a little bit of their time and go through a consult with you and answer some of those legal questions.

11:28And it doesn't mean that when you talk to an attorney, all of a sudden sound the alarm, you're going through litigation, you need to pay a retainer, you need to leave. A lot of times it's just understanding what's the law, what's reasonable, what are my goals? Is there anything I can do in advance to maybe help this situation out before it gets too far, before I actually leave the relationship? Or I'm going to leave the relationship and I want to get my ducks in a row. Kristen and I always advocate for educating yourself. So part of educating yourself is that camaraderie. The other part of educating yourself is understanding what your state laws are, what is specifically going to affect your case, what would happen if you go to court.

12:12Those are questions that you want the person that's going to court for you to be able to answer for you. So you understand what it looks like. We have a lot of people that may call us and have a really unreasonable position and we're like, this is not worth what you're talking about. And then on the other side of the fence, you may have somebody calling in thinking they couldn't possibly get this. And we're going, no, you absolutely could. Here's the steps. Here's what's reasonable. Here's what we would recommend. So never too soon, in my opinion, to at least chat with an attorney. Might be too soon to retain one, but the conversation should be open as soon as possible, especially if you have those questions.

12:47Think about it this way. You have a physical ailment, you want to go to the doctor. You go to the gym to take care of yourself. You have to take care of your emotional being as well. And Sam and I are pretty willing to do free case assessments up to a certain point. Obviously, some people will take advantage of that at some point. But I encourage the second that you are going to a face group and you are asking if you should still be married, that is a sign that you should start understanding what your options are. Whether or not it works itself out, maybe you're going to therapy and maybe that was just a rough time in your life.

13:21But there are things that women need to know. For instance, if you're the high income earner and you're approaching that 10-year anniversary, there is a huge difference between spouse support for a short-term marriage, which is less than 10 years, versus a marriage that is 10 years in one day. So that is absolutely something that women should know. You may have some safety concerns where dad has threatened to leave the state with the kids because he found out mom's having an affair and he's going to make her life a living hell, right? You should know that if we file or if you were to file and serve the other party with any custody or divorce action and they are served, then neither parent is allowed to leave that state.

14:01Now I'm speaking under California law. I know that there's many states involved, but most states have some sort of generic rule regarding custody and visitation that would make sure that nobody can take off with the kids. That's really, really important. And sometimes you need a file, let the dust settle, then try to work on the marriage. You can move a case as quickly as you want with the court's availability, but then you can also move it as slow as you want if you're trying to rehabilitate that marriage or work on it, or even just that relationship. But if domestic violence is involved, it generally takes women, you know, seven times before they will actually leave that relationship.

14:39But there are so many very important dates and time issues that you need to be aware of. There's nothing, no one's going to know you make that call to the attorney. No one's going to know it's a confidential call unless you go and post that you talk to an attorney, which I don't recommend, but it also prevents the other party from hiring that attorney down the road. I am talking to Kristen Holdstrom and Samantha McBride, the custody queens, and we will be right back. Well, I'm coming in hot to say it is worth taking care of your skin. It's worth finding the right products to keep your skin smooth and hydrated.

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17:58How much did I spend on that vacation last summer? Or can I spend this much on this year's vacation without touching my savings? Use code FRESH at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just$50. That's 50 % off your first year at monarch.com with the code fresh. So the idea of an amicable divorce seems to be something that people go into like, of course, it's going to be amicable. Let's stay amicable. That's like the North Star. But I've heard it said that sometimes staying in this like amicable lane hurts one of the parties like they think they're being amicable while the other person is really getting ready to put money somewhere where it can't be found or make a lot of plans.

18:50How do you advise people about the idea of staying amicable? You get a plan in place. You educate yourself on what the law is. You learn what your facts are. And you set realistic goals for yourself based on each one of those things. And that will allow you to set a boundary for yourself as to amicability. We love amicability, but amicability sometimes, to your point, comes at a cost. And so what we don't want people to do is just to agree to the point that they've lost their rights without even knowing that they're waiving them. A lot of times in the beginning of these cases, people are fighting.

19:28They might just be fighting because they're angry. Maybe they're not that far apart on some issues. Maybe they're wildly apart on others. And so you really need to get in there and understand what are you fighting about and how reasonable is your position. So we want amicability, but we also need you to protect your rights. And so you have to have kind of that line in the sand. You're amicable to a point. And then at that point or at that juncture, you say, if we can't resolve it, this is where we need to push this for a court intervention. I think there's a distinct difference to that when people say amicable, I think, as Sam has mentioned, that means something different to everybody, right?

20:06So is being amicable just agreeing to everything because you want to keep the peace and you just don't have it in you to fight? Or is it amicable because this is really what you want long term and you're really trying to facilitate that settlement? It just looks different. Here's a situation that comes up for Sam and I all the time. We have a newly separated couple. They don't even have to be married. Just, you know, going through custody. We have some younger kids and there's some safety concerns with dad, right? Say dad, Dave is a drinker. Amy and I are both married to Dave. So we have to pick a different name.

20:38Bob, Bob, Bob. All right. We got Bob. We got Bob. So, you know, Bob is, you know, he likes to throw back more than a couple of beers pretty much every night. It wasn't that big of a deal when you were together because you were there and you could control it. But now that you're separated and he's potentially alone with the kids for periods of time, now it's a huge issue. Well, if you create this amicable phase because you don't want to fight with Bob, you're creating a status quo. You're already creating what the court is likely to continue ordering because this is what you have done. So if you go into six months before anybody files or before you get to court and there's a hearing and Bob is like, I don't know what she's talking about.

21:23She's been letting me have the kids three nights a week and, you know, she's never raised this issue. So why is it all of a sudden an issue now? So there is a difference between being amicable and protecting your kids. But so often I have these women who call us and they say, well, I just did that because I wanted to keep the peace. And now I want to bring up the safety concern and I want to bring up his DUIs and I want to bring up the fact that he's at the bar until 11 o 'clock on a Tuesday. Well, those are great safety concerns, but now how does that make you look when you allowed this to go on for six months because you want it to be amicable and now you want to bring up six months later when you already created an artificial status quo, even though you were trying to keep the peace, you have to know when to bring up these issues or when I'm going to keep these issues aside.

22:10You don't get to have buyer's remorse and that happens more often than we can count. That's really interesting. I don't think people think about that. And just to kind of add on to that, amicability does not mean that you won't have a dispute. You can firmly say no, and it just doesn't need to escalate. There are issues that you don't need to go back and forth about. If you don't agree to a number of support, then you don't agree to that. And you could defer that to your attorney or to the court to handle it. You don't have to argue you back and forth all day. So you certainly don't need to engage in unnecessary arguing, but that is very different than having a legitimate dispute.

22:49So of course we want to mitigate, especially when there's kids involved, this back and forth hostile relationship, but you could still have disputes that need to be resolved either through your attorneys outside of court or with court intervention. Not everything has to go to the court. Your attorneys can also settle it to potentially. So a lot of it's just taking the fire or the spice out of the inner dynamic between you and your former partner. Doesn't mean you have to change your mind or agree with what they're saying. And I think sometimes for women, I have a lawyer in my business life who does my contracts and I was raised to be like polite and pleasing to people and good girl.

23:30And I have a lawyer, luckily who when I do a contract is like you have to pay her this much and this is how she's these are the categories and this is what you have to and often I find myself saying to my lawyer like oh but be really nice about it I don't want them to think that I'm a diva or I'm difficult and he's like yeah my job is to represent your interests not to be nice right and I think sometimes for women I've come around to be like women should have lawyers for everything because I think it helps you get over that hurdle of like, my number one job on earth is to be nice. Yeah, Sam and I have no problem knowing when to be uberly nice and when to, you know, tell you to go somewhere.

24:13So that's just, you know, that's just part of the process. And I think Sam's 100 % right. We use the crock pot as an example. There's some things that you should fight when people call us and I say, okay, this is, you know, you have say a$50 ,000 case on a $10 ,000 budget. So let's focus on what is the most important issues, which in my opinion, more often than not is generally the kids followed by, you know, support or how, how are you going to be able to live past this, you know, separation. And I will have clients that will want to die on this hill. And I use a crock pot as an example. They got to have that crock pot because, you know, for whatever reason, and it's not just a crock pot, I'm using it for an example.

24:54Sure. But there are things that the court is going to divide no matter what a certain way if there's no agreement. So do we want to spend$10 ,000 to fight over a$200 crock pot? You know, I usually will go buy one for my client if that's that big of a deal. But there's emotions tied to that. So we have to get to a point is how do we want to use your funds? What is the most important? What hills are we going to die on? And what are we going to ultimately come to an agreement on? And it doesn't happen overnight. right? It's time. It takes time. You're playing chess. And how do we get there? I think every case is capable of settlement.

25:32I just think some, it happens quicker than others. And what about child support? I feel like I know, and we were just talking to a woman who advocates on behalf of teen moms, and a lot of those moms are not being paid child support because the dad as a teen. And so the idea is, well, he can't pay child support. He's a young kid himself. And is that something that's changing or getting better? Like, I feel people, it's like the husband doesn't have a steady job. There's nothing to garnish. And so then the family can be a little bit like, well, it seems mean to ask him to pay child support. But it's the agreement.

26:13How do you with those disputes? So in California, both parties have a responsibility to financially provide for their children. And so it's going to be really fact sensitive in whether or not a court believes that that party could, for example, be otherwise imputed at an income if they're failing to work. But we start out in California with the premise that both parties have a responsibility to financially care for their children. And so in California, we use statewide guideline child support calculations, which can be very simple and it can also have some complexity to it. If you have two W-2 employees and you have a parenting timeshare, it's pretty easy to enter the information in and receive that child support amount.