In short
How to help kids feel seen, especially children who may become “glass children” (the sibling whose needs are overlooked because another child has higher needs). The hosts also discuss family “operating systems,” hidden/suppressed emotions, and practical connection strategies.
Guests
No guest interview in the episode. The hosts are Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson. A listener message from “Jabri” is read.
Guest background (Jabri)
Home-educating two “twice exceptional” kids; caring for an adult sister with learning disabilities; selling a late mother’s house and managing estate paperwork; juggling multiple responsibilities and wanting “someone else to be the responsible adult.”
Key claims
Glass children often become hyper-independent, people-pleasing, perfectionistic, and may struggle with boundaries and vulnerability because they feel like a “burden.” Suppressing emotions can be learned when someone else’s moods/needs dominate the home. Zip code/economics and family systems shape outcomes; this is morally neutral and not the parent’s fault.
Notable examples
A camp director praising a child for filling out medical forms alone; a child whispering “I’m also very beautiful” (wanting attention); the “21/7-minute rule” (7 minutes, three times daily, one child at a time).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOListener Feedback
1:02 to 1:55
Discussion about a listener's experience with parenting challenges.
“Today, we're talking about how to help our kids feel seen.”
Understanding Glass Children
1:55 to 3:23
Exploration of the dynamics of glass children and their experiences.
“Oh, it makes us happy to know other people are out there.”
Family Dynamics and Operating Systems
3:23 to 6:20
Discussion on family dynamics and how they shape children's experiences.
“And the idea is that this child is forced into early independence, that their needs are not prioritized because they have a high needs sibling.”
Resilience and Independence
6:20 to 10:10
Exploring the balance between resilience and the needs of overlooked children.
“I was like, that's a really interesting thing that sounds right and real to me.”
The Complexity of People Pleasing
10:10 to 14:00
Discussion on the dual nature of people-pleasing behaviors in children.
“And one of the things I remarked on is like, they're all just super chill people in a way that vibes with me completely in terms of like, yeah, we'll eat if we eat.”
Understanding People Pleasing
14:00 to 15:48
Explore the nuances of people pleasing and its impact on emotional health.
“I don't even, you know, I think it's empty, but you do put other people's needs before your own when you grew up needing to do that.”
Understanding People Pleasing
15:51 to 16:49
Explore the nuances of people pleasing and its impact on emotional health.
“And even with those hotel hair dryers, I know my hair will be, as you like to say, bouncing and behaving thanks to Nutrafol.”
Understanding People Pleasing
17:59 to 19:19
Explore the nuances of people pleasing and its impact on emotional health.
“Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too.”
Understanding People Pleasing
19:23 to 19:33
Explore the nuances of people pleasing and its impact on emotional health.
“That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash W-F-H.”
The Burden of High Achievement
19:33 to 23:00
Discuss the implications of being a high-achieving child and its effects.
“So yeah, like the idea that being a high-achieving kid or a kid who doesn't get in a lot of trouble or a kid who is a rule follower is a negative is insane.”
Show all 17 chapters
Understanding Soft ACEs and Trauma
23:00 to 24:27
Examine the impact of soft adverse childhood experiences and their effects.
“And I was reading an interesting article, and it was a little off topic, but I'll reference it, which was about ACEs childhood, which we've talked about adverse childhood experiences.”
Perfectionism and Its Impact
24:27 to 28:04
Explore how perfectionism develops and its effects on adulthood.
“Like the frequency in your house that everybody perceives.”
Navigating Complex Emotions of Attention
28:04 to 32:25
Explore the complexities of feeling overlooked when others receive more attention.
“Ali Brosh, who has this hilarious book called Hyperbole and a Half.”
Navigating Complex Emotions of Attention
33:35 to 34:26
Explore the complexities of feeling overlooked when others receive more attention.
“You know I hate packing to go places, which is why I'm so grateful that Quince's mix and match pieces make throwing together a vacation wardrobe so much easier.”
Navigating Complex Emotions of Attention
34:31 to 34:49
Explore the complexities of feeling overlooked when others receive more attention.
“Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too.”
Implementing the 7-7-7 Rule for Connection
34:49 to 42:01
Learn how to foster connection with your children through intentional, focused time.
“I function on a whirring engine of kombucha and positive vibes.”
The 21 Minute Rule in Parenting
42:01 to 46:10
Learn how the 21 minute rule can help parents connect with their kids effectively.
“That is like one of the greatest parenting secrets of all time.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hey friends, Olivia from OLLI. Between new routines and the ultimate group project known as parenting, you need science-backed solutions that work with your life. That's where OLLI comes in. Start your mornings off right with Maltese made to support nutrition and immune health. Choose from our lineup of gut-supporting probiotics, and we've got occasional sleep support to help the whole fam chase their big dreams. Head back to class with the number one gummy supplement brand. Stock up on OLLI.com today. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
0:32That last child's pretty gritty.
0:34Amy Wilson:What Fresh Hell, laughing in the face of motherhood. There's no gold star, honey. With Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson. Say, I'm also very beautiful. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to. That is like one of the greatest parenting secrets of all time.
0:57Amy Wilson:Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're talking about how to help our kids feel seen. But first, we're going to hear from Jabri. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, who wrote to us on Spotify. You can always comment on each episode on Spotify. Yeah. And they're really easy for us to see, and we read them all. So leave a nice comment if you want. I mean, I guess you could leave a mean comment, but that would hurt our feelings. So please don't. She says, I just love this podcast for validating the feelings we all have, but don't feel we're allowed to express.
1:32Amy Wilson:I'm home educating two twice exceptional kids while also caring for my adult sister with learning disabilities, selling my late mother's house and managing the paperwork on her estate and finding my sister somewhere new to live. At least three times a day, I want someone else to be the responsible adult so I can take a break. Thanks, Margaret and Amy. I really enjoyed this episode. Oh, it makes us happy to know other people are out there. I was trying to get at, you know, that feeling where you just were waiting for the adult to show up, except it's you. And I'm glad to know that Jabri's out there like, oh, yeah, I know what that's like.
2:05Amy Wilson:Oh, yes, I do. Thanks for asking. Similarly, today, we're going to talk about a specific thing that I think ripples through all families. Amy, are you familiar with the term glass child? I'm not. I don't know what that means. So I recently came across this term and I'm going to start by defining it. This is the Cleveland Clinic's definition. A glass child is someone with a sibling who has a medical, behavioral, or developmental condition that requires extra support. The needs of the glass child can often be overlooked by parents or caregivers who spend most of their time caring for the sibling.
2:48Amy Wilson:In this case, glass doesn't mean fragile. Often glass children grow into resilient, mature, and responsible adults because they had to. They may strive for perfection, take on too much, and throw themselves into achievement, hoping to earn attention that they did not get as children. It's a family dynamic where one child is, for whatever reason, high needs, and the other sibling or one of the other siblings becomes this very new definition, the glass child. And the idea is that this child is forced into early independence, that their needs are not prioritized because they have a high needs sibling.
3:35Amy Wilson:And as a result, they become very independent and good at taking care of themselves. But often there are downsides that they may overwork. They may struggle to set boundaries. They may sublimate their own needs because if you have a sibling who's battling cancer, your breakup with your friend does not seem important. important. And so you subconsciously tend to feel like your job is to stay quiet and have no problems so that your high needs sibling, your parents who are already taxed to the max dealing with something else, don't also have to worry about your problems. And it's definitely a subconscious process.
4:25Like your kid isn't in your room like, well, I guess nobody cares about my breakup, I wish I could say something, but I can't. It is a seamless transition into, you know, you can't be a further burden to this stressed system. And so you simply aren't. And you become somebody who is not even necessarily aware that you have needs that aren't being met. Correct. You just deal with stuff. I'm so curious, though, why is that? I would think the glass child is the kid with special needs, not the sibling. Why do they think they call it glass children?
4:55Amy Wilson:The idea is that parents look past the healthy child. It's a metaphor of transparency. They look through you to the needs of the other child. And then maybe also the idea of suppression. The child appears strong, easy, independent, but is extremely fragile. Their invisibility of their needs. That's right. Okay. I think that this is a very specific dynamic, Glass Child. I mean, I saw the search bar stuff that was like, can you be a Glass Child without a disabled or specifically high needs or ill sibling? I think you can. I think anything that is sucking up a lot of the family's, maybe particularly the mom's attention, can lead to this dynamic.
5:47And it's not something I'm going to play you in this conversation and say this is definitely something to be aware of. I think if you have a high needs sibling, like this is a nearly inescapable dynamic, which you should be aware of. If not, you should like beat yourself up with your last ounce of energy that maybe your other kids needs are getting the backseat. You know what I mean? Like they're going to and then you're aware of it and then you address it.
6:11Amy Wilson:Amy, not only do I know what you mean, but you're skipping ahead of my notes. Oh, sorry. Sorry, sorry. No, not at all. Totally fine. But we're not just going to talk about glass siblings because I think that's a very specific dynamic that's specific to some people. but it was for me when I heard it. I was like, that's a really interesting thing that sounds right and real to me. We've done podcast episodes about, I think we did one called when one of your kids is taking all of your bandwidth. Yes. I think that this is a dynamic that is super interesting to think and talk about because this is something that happens in all families.
6:49Amy Wilson:Every family has an operating system, like a computer has an operating system. Every person has an operating system. A computer, if you just turned it on, would be like ones and zeros and binary code that you did not understand. So a computer has an operating system that presents the information to you in a specific way. That could be a Windows system. That could be a Mac system. It has an operating system. And similarly, all families and all people have an operating system. No one is strict binary code. Nobody is tabula rasa. Nobody is just doing life raw. You know, everybody has been affected by a million factors outside of their control.
7:34Amy Wilson:Birth order. Zip code of birth is the number one predictor of childhood outcomes in the United States. So where you happen to be born and the day you happen to be born is a vast predictor of your personal outcome. And so I think it's interesting that like we as parents are like, we can't give our kid glass child syndrome, our only child syndrome, and we can't give them, oh, parents of multiple elders, daughter syndrome. That in fact, this is a morally neutral conversation about how hard things cause different outcomes and how we can be aware of the water we're swimming in and be aware that we are swimming in water and not have things happen to us as complete defaults that we are not at the dials of at least.
8:33My spouse and I grew up two miles away from each other. We didn't know each other until we were young adults, but we grew up two miles away from each other, just talking about the zip code thing. So I guess we did have, strictly speaking, different zip codes, but about as close as you could get. And I just spent a lot of time with my husband's extended family. We all got together. And this coming weekend, we're going to spend a lot of time with my own extended family. And when we were talking like 20 people, cousins and, you know, kids, fiancés at this point, all kinds of people. And just the default settings of these two families that you would think would be pretty similar based on geographic and sort of are very, very different.
9:10Like one group likes to sit around and talk. One group is like, we're going to have this kind of contest and we're going to have that kind of contest and we're going to play pickleball, right? One group likes to stay up late. One group is more of a like, let's get up early and exercise. And it's a large group of people with completely different dynamics. And you can entering it being like, well, the way my family does it is normal, right? And the way your family does it isn't good because it differs from the normal and we have to do a pickleball tournament. Like, no, you don't. Your system is your system.
9:35Yes. everybody's got a system.
9:37Amy Wilson:Yeah. And the zip code of birth thing, I will say, is about economics. And so that's the predictive nature of like, for example, the New York State prison system, some outsized percentage of the New York City prison system comes from five zip codes in New York State. It's just the idea that like your circumstances of birth because of economics. Now, that's wide categories as we get into like, yes, the specificity of every different family is completely unique. And I just was on a extended vacation with my in-laws as well. And one of the things I remarked on is like, they're all just super chill people in a way that vibes with me completely in terms of like, yeah, we'll eat if we eat.
10:24Amy Wilson:We'll do this. Just do your own thing. like and I was like this is great but it's like great because it vibes with what I will the way I want to operate right their operating system and my operating system are wildly compatible which doesn't mean either of our operating systems are good or bad so we're going to come to this from a place of moral neutrality and we're also going to come from a place of maximum generosity in terms of hard situations are not your fault. Everything in life will affect your child in ways that you don't have control over, and that's okay. So this is not like, well, one of your children is high needs, and therefore you're going to end up with a glass child because you stink.
11:09Glass child, glass child.
11:11Amy Wilson:You've got a glass child. And I also think that resilience and grit I mean, I feel like when we were first doing this podcast, we would get 4 ,000 pitches a week about how to give your kids grit. Grit is the thing that kids are really missing. And oh, my God, if you don't have grit, you're such a loser. And like situations where you have a high needs child in the family creates a ton of grit and resilience, which we were recently told was the most important thing you could ever have. That glass child's pretty gritty. And so I think we can definitely get into like chasing our tails in this way of like grit, good, grit, bad glass child from grit, terrible, bad mom.
11:51Amy Wilson:No, we're just trying to define a phenomenon of like at certain points, how can we meet the needs, the very different needs of different children? Do you accept the premise? I sure do. That sounds really good to me. Let's talk about characteristics of children who can feel in this overlooked category, some of which are good and some of which are bad. Hyper-independence. Hyper-independence is a great skill, but the flip side of it can be learning not to ask for help. That asking for help is considered selfish, dangerous, needy, burdensome. You just don't think that's an option. Like, shoot, I got to get from point A to point B.
12:35I guess I'll take three buses. You'd never like call up your parents where they can somebody come get me. You know what I'm saying? You're not like, guess I'll sublimate my needs.
12:42Amy Wilson:You just don't. You just figure it out. And again, this is the kind of thing I have somebody in my life who lost their husband very young to cancer and had four children at the time. Their child was going to camp and the camp director called the parent, the surviving parent, and was like, wow, your kid filled out all their forms by themselves. Like, this is so impressive. I've never seen a camper do this. Like, they looked up the number for their doctor. Like, they had figured it out. And she felt very heartbroken by this call in some ways like, oh, my poor kid has to do everything by themselves because I'm spread so thin.
13:22Amy Wilson:And the camp director was like, what an amazing and skilled child. It's both. Frankly, kids can do this. And I think a lot of this conversation is going to be an ability to hold both of these things, that the resilience and the independence of a kid who has to do a lot of things on their own is an amazing skill. and also you want to be aware of when independence is a sign that a child just feels like their role is to quietly do everything without bothering anybody or asking for help or getting their own emotional needs met because that's a downside and so all of these things are going to be on the scale yeah another one which makes a ton of sense is people pleasing amy you wrote a whole book about hating this term people pleasing is on the cover of my book but i kind of hate the term because people think what it means, but it just sounds like, why are you trying to please people all the time?
14:19I don't even, you know, I think it's empty, but you do put other people's needs before your own when you grew up needing to do that. Which again, can be an excellent quality.
14:27Amy Wilson:It's not necessarily just a negative quality. It can be both. That's right. Stop trying to please me all the time. I guess that's why I don't like it. It's like that works great for most people when you're pleasing them. It doesn't work so well for you. People pleasing as a negative quality. I also think it tends to be a feminine quality and is equated with weakness in a way that is completely wrong and unacceptable. That's what bothers me. That like it is not weak to please other people and to put other people's needs before your own. But on the flip side, you don't want to go into the territory of like completely sublimating all of your needs to make sure that your only priority is keeping the people around you happy.
15:12That's well said.
15:13Amy Wilson:I think this goes way beyond Glass Child. I think that being known as the easy, good child in a family is this as well. And like, I think you were like the easy, good child in your family, right? Yeah, I'm not the only one. But yeah, so I was the oldest of many kids. And I think I just learned early, like, okay, there's little ones at home. Just don't get pregnant. Don't get in trouble. Like, I just didn't even dream of rebelling because my parents couldn't have handled it. Yeah, you knew their cup was full and you weren't going to pour nonsense into it. Yes. No nonsense for me. That's right. All right.
15:47Amy Wilson:We'll drill down on that a little bit when we get back. Well, Amy, I'm about to head off for vacation. And even with those hotel hair dryers, I know my hair will be, as you like to say, bouncing and behaving thanks to Nutrafol. Yes, I do like to say it. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and Margaret and me. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer-reviewed, NSF-certified for sport, and clinically tested. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men, for women, all tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause, so you get the support that's actually right for you.
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16:44Amy Wilson:For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners$10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com promo code laughing. Amy, I'm soaking in it. You know I hate packing to go places, which is why I'm so grateful that Quince's mix and match pieces make throwing together a vacation wardrobe so much easier. Quince specializes in high quality essential pieces that will become the basic building blocks of your wardrobe, like the 100 % organic cotton poplin pin tuck maxi skirt I just got.
17:27You can wear it to the pool. You can wear it out to dinner. wear it everywhere because it goes with everything else that's already in my closet.
17:34Amy Wilson:Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands. They cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince also offers elevated essentials in every category, from bedding and bath to kitchen staples to furniture. Upgrade your every day. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash fresh. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash fresh. Oh, Amy, I hate to say it, but based on the 17 ,000 emails and app notifications I am already getting, it is almost time to go back to school.
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19:19Amy Wilson:Go to myskylight.com slash WFH for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash W-F-H. So yeah, like the idea that being a high-achieving kid or a kid who doesn't get in a lot of trouble or a kid who is a rule follower is a negative is insane. And it's also just an operating system that like some people have. I mean, I joke with my husband all the time because he is so this kid that I'm like, there's no gold star, honey. There's no gold star for who sorts the mail the fastest. Like he is the guy who just is like, I'm doing it the best. I am the quietest dental patient.
20:09Amy Wilson:Like, sure, you're drilling into my nerve, but I'm not going to mention it. You know, like it is so part of his soul to be like, I can get the gold star. You can hide your emotions, You can hide that you're experiencing pain so as not to bother anybody, that you're resentful so as not to bother. So yeah, you can start to supplement your emotions. And it has great things about it. I mean, my husband's an amazing father. He's a great husband. He puts other needs before his own. He's a genuinely good person. And there are times where I'm like, we need to be on planet Earth together, having a conversation that is about difficult things.
20:46Amy Wilson:And it's not only your job to be easy. You know, like sometimes I need you to be a little bit hard when things are hard and we need to acknowledge those things. So two sides of the same coin. And this is leading into our next quality, which is hidden emotions, suppressing anger, sadness or resentment. And I think that this is where with our own kids and maybe healing some of our own stuff, it's great to examine the times where we are having a feeling and not expressing it because it would be too much trouble for other people. You have a hilarious line in Happy to Help where you talk about your therapist.
21:30Amy Wilson:Do you know the line I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. Nobody needed to know about that except my therapist. And even then I hated to make her worry. That's it, right? Like, God forbid I should be a burden to other people. And that is baked in the cake of us as Irish Catholic ladies, baked in the cake in so many people for so many reasons. and I think that this is something we've talked a lot about. I think that it's something that people are much more aware of, letting children feel their emotions, letting them name and express their emotions, letting them have big feelings. I recently had a conversation with one of my kids where I just kept saying, there's nothing too scary to say out loud.
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22:12Amy Wilson:It's okay to feel like you hate your parents. It's okay to feel like you want to hurt people who've hurt you. there's nothing too scary to say out loud and saying those things out loud actually helps it helps you feel less scared of the scary feelings because it is a very out of control feeling when you're like i can't stop thinking about punching the person who made me feel small it's like it's okay it's that's a very normal feeling a lot of people grow up in a house where there are things that are too scary to say out loud that you have sort of one person's it's different from having somebody with high needs just somebody whose moods run the house right Yes.
22:49You can't bring up this thing because of the explosion that you'll get won't be worth it. And so everybody has to tiptoe around that one person's needs. That's definitely a family system that can exist in the world. Absolutely.
23:01Amy Wilson:And I was reading an interesting article, and it was a little off topic, but I'll reference it, which was about ACEs childhood, which we've talked about adverse childhood experiences. And they've literally made a list of abuse, substance use in the home, an incarcerated parent. These are the 11 ACEs, and how many you have helps determine what problems or traumas you're going to face. Yeah. This person was talking about like soft aces and how there's like kind of this other category where you just have somebody in the house who you can't express your emotions around in front of. Like it's a little bit less red blinking light of like aces.
23:43Amy Wilson:It's a little subtler than I have a parent who's in active addiction. I want to throw to Sarah Hirsch Bordeaux. I just did a Fresh Take interview with her about her book about autoimmune diseases and why women are so much more likely to have them. And she talked about in our interview trauma with a small T that like maybe you didn't have a parent who was incarcerated, but you had a parent who yelled a lot and you have a traumatic response to that. And your body remembers that and your body plays that out and you react by being a perfectionist or whatever, that that is valid. and that just because your problems aren't as big as somebody else's doesn't mean that your body doesn't hold those things closely.
24:23Amy Wilson:That's a great point. Soft aces and small t trauma are the same. Like the frequency in your house that everybody perceives. And I mean, you can tell sometimes females better than males usually. Like you walk into a situation and it's like someone in here is having a fight like that frequency. Right. Yeah. Electricity in the air. So you brought up perfectionism. That's another quality of the overlooked or the glass child or maybe the child who's just very committed to being no trouble trying to earn approval through high achievement since space is tight. This can also be we've talked about differentiation of siblings like, okay, older brother is a total screw up.
25:08Amy Wilson:I'm going to get straight A's. There's lots of reasons why people pursue perfectionism. And I also think some of it is genetic. I look at my kids and my siblings and some of us are perfectionists and some of us aren't. And it's interesting. I mean, we were talking on this vacation that I was just on with my in-laws. We're staying together and you could kind of walk by and see people's rooms. And it was just funny. Three of the rooms looked like bombs had gone off, one of them being mine. And then like four of the rooms were like military order. And it's just funny, like who's who? Family systems.
25:42Amy Wilson:Baked in the cake or did it come from family systems? It's just hard to know. Yeah. These things then lead to impacts in adulthood, some of which are negative and some of which are not. We're going to focus on, obviously, the positives I feel like are fairly clear, right? Like high achievement, perfectionism, being a neat person, like lots of things that are very celebrated, you know, the person who plans everything, like the positives we get, right? Yeah. But the negatives can be self-worth issues, believing that your own needs are a burden to other people, which is an interesting aspect of self-worth that I don't always think about.
26:24Amy Wilson:Like I think of self-worth as like, I stink. But in this, It's like, I'm great. I'm doing everything. I'm keeping all the plates spinning. But there is no room for me to express that I'm having a hard day. Like, this is something that I have had this conversation a lot with my spouse in terms of like, when is it my turn to fall on the floor and have a tantrum? Some of that is role based. But the idea of like you have it all together. I mean, a lot of this stuff you explore in your book, like you're so great at everything. It's like, what if I want to be the one who's not great at everything? I feel like there's two steps in it right the first is like wait a minute I'm not doing so good I actually might need something here right really figuring that out for yourself and then you express it to a world that's like what do you mean you know like you're Amy you take care of things get back to work right there's no room for that right now right first you have to figure it out for yourself then you have to ask and ask and ask and ask and it is a cycle because I love the feedback of like look at you go you've always got it all together look at your kids they're all sure Sure.
27:29Amy Wilson:They all are packed so perfectly and they have exactly what they need to wear for the trip. And that feedback is very fulfilling. But then the like, when do I get to stop being this person is the flip side. And we'll talk about how to help with that. Difficulty setting boundaries, saying no or expressing vulnerability. Again, like you talked about this in your book, the idea of like, you know what someone says, if you want something done, give it to a busy person, like, no, thank you. Don't want. But the idea of like, you're the capable one. We've talked about Ali Brosh, who has this hilarious book called Hyperbole and a Half.
28:08Amy Wilson:Right. And at some point, like she is trying to show off and she likes hot sauce. And then for the rest of her life, people are giving her like hot sauce themed pajamas. And like, she's like, I just was one day when I was eight trying to get attention by eating hot sauce. And like, you're the person to go to for everything can be a hard mantle to throw off. And then I think the complexity of feeling is also so essential to this. Like, it is hard when someone is sick, and they get all the attention. But you feel like a horrible person for being like, why do they get all the attention? What about me, I'm not sick, you know?
28:49Amy Wilson:And I mean, this is a complex thing and it is like your small T trauma is valid. I have a friend who worked in a very frightening and high danger and high trauma industry for a long time. And I often found her saying like, well, I might have my problems, But, you know, I'm not in a war zone getting shot at. And it's like, right. But that can't be the bar for life that like your heart is hard. Your heart is hard. And also nothing is too scary to say out loud. Like I resent my friend whose husband died of cancer because she gets so much attention and people are always looking out for her. I resent my sister with cancer because people pay a lot of attention to her.
29:46Amy Wilson:Like, those are things that you don't want to say out loud because they're scary and they make you seem awful. But they're there. But they're true. And that's fine. This reminds me of just to light the moon. I'm going to tell a story of my daughter when she was almost four. It was like two days before she turned four. She was a flower girl in my sister-in-law's wedding. And she looked adorable in her dress, whatever. And then, you know, my sister-in-law came down the stairs and the gorgeous bride. I'd be like, oh, you're amazing. You're amazing. And my daughter came over to me and said, everybody is saying, Aunt Kelly looks very beautiful, but I also look very beautiful.
30:21And you're like, girly, it ain't your day. Right. And I was like, yes, you do. You're the second most beautiful person.
30:27Amy Wilson:Or maybe the first, maybe the first, but we're not going to talk about that in front of Aunt Kelly. Our feelings are valid. It's both, right? It's not okay to be like, I'm the most beautiful everywhere and no one else is ever allowed to be beautiful because I am the prettiest princess. Right, right, right. But it is okay to be like, I want attention too. Just want to say. Yeah, she whispered it to me only. She knew that was something. Even at that age, she knew. She's like, I'm bitter as heck and I'm not going to take it anymore. All this talk about the bride. And so I think here, leaving room for complex feelings, maybe this is time for a therapist who you can Amy Burden with your problems.
31:09Amy Wilson:You can tell her all the bad things. Say I'm also very beautiful. and really leaving room for everybody to have feelings. And it is super complicated. And I think it's something that we've made more complicated in current times that it is awesome that we accept all sorts of people and that we don't refer to people with hard conditions as burdens and that's great. But if the reality in your home is that one child is extremely disruptive and taking up all the attention, that's sometimes a real bummer. And it's okay to talk about how things are hard. Like we don't just have to be like, this is a gift and a superpower.
32:01Amy Wilson:Everything that goes on is great. Like it's okay to be like, this is really, really hard without saying, I wish things were different. I wish my kid was never born. Those are not the two ends of the extreme. That's right. All right. We'll be back and talk about solutions. Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be enclosed space, year-round fun for the whole family that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name. Let's say it together on three. One, two, three. Great Wolf Lodge. You got it, Amy. My kids loved Great Wolf Lodge when we went.
32:42You probably already know that it has a huge indoor water park with a wave pool, lazy river, a bunch of massive water slides, but then your pack can hit the other attractions because wait, there's more. Great Wolf Lodge has
32:55Amy Wilson:adventure packed attractions like Magi Quest, a live action game kids can play throughout the Lodge, plus the Northern Lights Arcade spent some quality time there. So your kid who loves the lazy river and your kid who loves fantasy games will both have a great time. Great Wolf Lodge also offers great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties, all under one roof. Unpack the car once and you're settled in to have fun. And with 22 lodges across the country, you're always a short drive away from adventure. We've both had such great times at Great Wolf Lodge. So bring your pack together at a lodge near you.
33:30Amy Wilson:Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. Amy, I'm soaking in it. You know I hate packing to go places, which is why I'm so grateful that Quince's mix and match pieces make throwing together a vacation wardrobe so much easier. Quince specializes in high quality essential pieces that will become the basic building blocks of your wardrobe, like the 100 % organic cotton poplin pin tuck maxi skirt I just got. You can wear it to the pool. You can wear it out to dinner, wear it everywhere because it goes with everything else that's already in my closet. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands.
34:11Amy Wilson:They cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince also offers elevated essentials in every category from bedding and bath to kitchen staples to furniture. Upgrade your every day. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash fresh. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash fresh.
34:48Amy Wilson:And now, two kinds of people. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. Coffee people. Oh, I don't need coffee. I function on a whirring engine of kombucha and positive vibes. If you speak to me before I inject the warm brown liquid of life into my veins, I am not responsible for my actions. Sunglasses people. I have a pair of tortoiseshell Prada glasses that I've had for like six and a half years. When not wearing them, I place them in this special case and only clean them with its designated cloth. I have approximately 98 pairs of$10 sunglasses scattered all over my life, and I have no idea where any of them are at the moment.
35:30Morning people versus night people. Good morning. I can just tell today is going to be amazing. Why would anyone speak to another human being before 10 a.m.?
35:41Amy Wilson:This has been Two Kinds of People. From the What Fresh Help podcast. Amy, I think we've talked before about the 7-7-7 rule. I don't remember this. I don't think it's original to her, but I was reading it from Dr. Becky's website, but I don't believe she is the creator of it. I could be wrong. I don't actually know. The seven-minute time frame is about helping your kids regulate and finding connection with each of the children in your house. The seven-minute time frame is not necessarily rooted in clinical research, but the principle behind it holds that you find three times a day, morning, after school, and bedtime, to spend seven minutes focusing on each of your children.
36:27Amy Wilson:And the idea behind it is that it's distraction-free time that you're giving uniquely to your children one at a time. Mm-hmm. This is something that I did not do Although I do think I have had times where i've literally turned to my husband and be like next week We need to spend more time concentrating on child x Because there have been times where one of the kids is doing exams or one of the kids is sick Or one of the kids is starting a new hobby And we're just like oh we've definitely been ignoring this child and i'm seeing some behavior that is attention seeking because we know that children will seek attention, negative or positive, you know, and that when you see attention seeking behavior, it's a great idea to just pay attention to that child.
37:17Right. And it doesn't have to be like a red alert. I'm not going to give a lot of detail, but I was with a kid recently who was just saying like super weird stuff to get attention, you know, and I'm just like, I can't see in front of my like saying stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, this kid can see. Right. Fine. But they They probably really need somebody to just sit with them and play toys or whatever, right? Like they will start, as you say, start to like do weirder stuff to get the attention until they get it.
37:43Amy Wilson:They will find that attention. My mother, who was a family therapist, used to say kids are amazing at getting their needs met. Like their needs might be annoying or wrong, but they will get their needs met. So one of the things I like about this is that, first of all, it's a very small amount of time. And so it could be that that seven minutes happens often now between me and my teenagers when I'm driving them somewhere. I am not sitting down with a 16-year-old and being like, let's spend seven minutes just chatting and reassuring you. This is your time. With momsies. And we're going to reinforce your needs for seven minutes starting now.
38:24Amy Wilson:No, they would run away. but the idea of like just setting this as a little intention and finding one of my kids came in I was already I have jet lag I was already in bed and they came in oh my gosh you're not going to believe what happened and I was like sit down and tell me everything like just trying to match the energy of like okay I'm already in bed but like and it turned out there was a bobcat in our yard and the cat was running away from it I mean it was a thrilling tale but I was like give me all the details. Like I find now with my teens, like whenever there's an opportunity connection, lean in.
39:00Amy Wilson:Like you want to tell me every single detail of the new Spider-Man movie? Let's do it. Just uninterrupted time. And I think with little kids, the idea is it's the 21 minute rule now because we have three sevens, right? That's our friend math, Amy. Morning, start the day with a calm check-in, a shared moment at breakfast, words of encouragement before school. Like, this isn't stop everything you're doing and have seven minutes of connection. This is just, you're already doing it. And listen, I have three kids. People have five, six kids. You may not be able to get seven minutes every day, three times a day.
39:39Amy Wilson:Yeah. It's just about like, what is the intentionality? Like, oh, do I have one kid who's specific about how they want their hair done? And like I can help them do braids in the morning or where are these moments after school reconnecting right after school listening to how the day went your mileage may vary I feel like my kids were chatty in the car but once they walked in the door they really wanted alone time we had an hour of screens when kids got home and then bedtime is like winding down like this is a great time of like stories cuddling what was the best and worst part of the day reading together doing a puzzle, like quiet activities.
40:18Amy Wilson:Maybe this is giving your kids a bath. All right, so I have two reactions to this. I agree with this idea, but I think it can be a little more - Organic. Generously applied, maybe. Organic. There's a content creator named Harlan Cohen. We'll link to him in the show notes. If you have older kids, kids are going up to college. Fabulous content creator, really for the kids, but sometimes for parents too, about how to handle that transition and how to deal with older kids. he has talked about like responding when your kid goes off to college, say, and I'm like, and you get the text and do I like chickpeas?
40:49I don't know, you know, from the dining hall, whatever that you don't have to answer that immediately. In fact, you shouldn't. But when they text you to say, I got an A on the test. I just met, you know, this really nice kid, whatever that then you respond immediately. So I think that like, as your kids get older, and mommy's lap is not the best place to be at all times. You do lean in, as you say, when they come in and want to talk about the bobcat. Like, okay, there's your seven minutes. It doesn't have to be right before bed or as soon as they walk in the door. The seven minutes are sometimes your kid decides when it is.
41:20And if you can, put your phone down, turn off the burner or whatever, and just turn on and be like, wow, that's amazing. That's your seven minutes right there. And it's led by the kid having something joyful to share. Just use those moments. This is one of those things that always feels like it's going to fall into the category of like, okay, now I have to find seven minutes three times a day for each of my kids. Here's a little secret. This is actually if you can do five minutes of this, sometimes whatever your kids will fight less. Your kids will be whining less. If you really sit down with them and say, like, show me how this Lego guy fights the other guy for a few minutes.
41:56But if you really give them your undivided attention, then they need less of it all the time. So it's actually this is better for you.
42:02Amy Wilson:That is like one of the greatest parenting secrets of all time. Like you can spend seven hours being like, could you stop? Stop. stop hitting your brother. Stop wanting my mom. You can spend seven hours like that, or you could spend seven minutes sitting down and being like, explain to me everything about how the Lego guy fights. And then you'll get five hours of peace. Not every kid, yes. Not every day, yes. But in general, we do this, as we always say, not because a book told us to, because it actually works. It works. So I want to quickly go through, because I think you pointed to something correct the developmental stages of the 21 rule.
42:41Amy Wilson:Zero to seven, play and love are our guiding principles in each of our seven minutes. Focusing on emotional safety, bonding, and learning through play. Oh, let's play with these. Watch how the trucks go. Cuddling. Oh, I love how you climb that thing on the playground today, just like seven minutes of play and love. Ages seven to 14, teaching and structure. We're focusing more on building good habits. Be careful. This isn't rules. It's still love and play. It's still love and play, but like boundary setting, teaching responsibility, like you're having more conversations, I would say at the dinner table about like, wow, what a dilemma.
43:27Amy Wilson:Or you're watching Gilmore Girl reruns and being like, remember you had a situation like that. You're guiding and learning in these times that you spend together. Age 14 to 21, you're shifting towards mentorship, open communication, allowing teens to make choices and like having conversations that reflect on those choices. So I think play and love is always at the basis of this. Like if I could be like, what the Bobcat what? Like that's play and love, you know, it's connection and bonding. Yes. But also I find as my kids get older, the idea of like, I could see that that really hurt you when that kid said that thing to you, like that might be our seven minutes and like you're moving more towards guidance.
44:13Amy Wilson:And I think what you were saying about older ages is focusing not on like, I am the source of your problem solving and moving towards like, I am love and support and your biggest cheerleader while you are figuring this out for yourself. And eventually it's like, let your kid tell you as they get older, I come from the future to tell you there will be a day when your kid knows more about something than you do. I'm like, explain the protected draft pick to me or explain, like, show me your pictures from your trip that you went with your school to a place I've never been. Tell me all about that place.
44:53It's a great way to get them talking.
44:55Amy Wilson:Just to put a fine point on it, the idea is I think that we can get overwhelmed by like, I've got a high needs kid and I've got two other kids. My high needs kid is taking 150 % of my bandwidth. And so I'm leaving my other kids with nothing. They're going to turn into glass children, which is this new thing I've heard about. Or just my job is very demanding right now. My boss is really mad at me. The project is due. I'm giving 150 % to work and I have nothing left for my family. These are the stories we tell ourselves. And I think the 21 minute rule, if it's the three minute at a time and it becomes the nine minute rule for a couple of weeks, just the idea of like, there is a very simple solution, which is that when I'm already lying in bed, but my kid saw a bobcat, I'm just going to joyfully lean into that for six minutes.
45:43Amy Wilson:And that's all a kid needs. It's not so deep. Kids will be formed by millions of things that happen to them. And those things are out of your control. But how you dial in in the ways that matter when you can for short periods of time is the solution to whatever else is going on in your life. Well, you solved it. solved it Amy solved it non-glass children rule seven minutes seven minutes exactly three times a day three times a day checking on you we will be following up and making sure you're doing exactly seven minutes so get on it people and as we said in the beginning Spotify leave us a comment on this episode if you know somebody who's in this situation share this episode with them from wherever you're listening right now and with that thanks so much for listening we'll talk to you next I enjoyed this episode.
46:42Amy Wilson:Thanks, everybody.
47:1120th anniversary sale at simply safe.com slash Spotify. Outdoor deterrence requires a simply safe active guard outdoor protection plan starting at$49.99 a month. Visit simply safe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee two zero one two.
From the publisher
What happens when one child’s needs take up most of a family’s attention? Even when parents are doing their best, it can be easy for another child to quietly become the “easy” one—the independent kid, the high achiever, the people-pleaser who never seems to need anything.
In this episode, we discuss:
What the term glass child means and why some children can become overlooked
How hyperindependence can be both a strength and a sign that a child doesn't feel comfortable asking for help
Why people-pleasing isn't inherently a bad quality—and when it can become a problem
How being the “easy,” responsible, or high-achieving child can lead to perfectionism
Why some kids learn to hide anger, sadness, resentment, or other difficult emotions
The importance of making space for children to express complicated feelings without judgment
How small-T trauma and difficult family dynamics can affect kids even when their experiences don't seem “bad enough” compared with someone else's
Why children may act out or seek negative attention when they're feeling overlooked
How parents can use short, intentional moments of one-on-one connection to help every child feel seen
The idea behind the 7-minute rule: finding small windows of distraction-free connection throughout the day
How connection can look different at different ages, from play and cuddling with young children to mentorship and open communication with teens
Why you don't need to perfectly balance your attention every single day to make your kids feel loved and supported
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Jenn Lonzer for the Cleveland Clinic: Always Coping, Rarely Seen: Explaining Glass Child Syndrome
Dr Becky Kennedy of "Good Inside" blog: What is the 777 Rule in Parenting?
Corinne Masur for Psychology Today: Helping Kids Feel They Matter
Our episode When One of Our Kids Takes Up All of Our Bandwidth
Our Fresh Take with Sara Hirsh Bordo
Harlan Cohen on IG
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
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