In short
Why siblings raised in the same house can become “total opposites,” and how parents can respond without over-comparing.
Guests
Margaret and Amy (hosts of What Fresh Hell).
Guest backgrounds
Margaret describes moving to California with her new wife; she’s a “mini parent”/third-child type and discusses being a rebel in contrast to high-achieving siblings. Amy describes being the oldest of six, with a brother 16 months younger and two “Irish twins” sisters; she also has two sons 19 months apart and notes their personalities diverge as kids.
Key claims
Siblings share only ~50% of DNA; physique/intelligence are more similar than personality (Dr. Robert Plowman). “Shared environment” isn’t truly shared (Annie Wright): different age, teachers, friends, and family roles create different developmental environments. Families can exaggerate roles via comparison (Dr. Alex Jensen). De-identification intensifies when siblings are close in age/same gender.
Notable examples
Amy’s sons needing separate activities (soccer/baseball/singing/drawing); Margaret and Amy’s “black sheep/rebel” and “golden child” contrasts; Penn State study where parents rated older sibling as better at school despite similar results.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOSiblings as Opposites
0:50 to 1:30
Exploring why siblings from the same family can be so different.
“Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell.”
Personal Experiences of Sibling Differences
1:30 to 4:00
Hosts share their own family dynamics and sibling differences.
“My brother and sister and I are born a year apart, basically.”
The Role of DNA in Sibling Differences
4:00 to 6:10
Discussion on how genetics influence personality and behavior in siblings.
“but they are very naturally very different personalities, very interested in different things.”
Theories of Divergence Among Siblings
6:10 to 7:20
Exploring the theory of divergence and how kids become opposites.
“they're starting to look more alike as they get into their 20s.”
Non-Shared Environment Theory
7:20 to 11:30
Examining how siblings experience different environments despite sharing a home.
“Maybe you studied this in high school biology class.”
Non-Shared Environment Theory
14:02 to 14:45
Examining how siblings experience different environments despite sharing a home.
“Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause and lifestyle factors such as plant based diet.”
Non-Shared Environment Theory
14:59 to 16:01
Examining how siblings experience different environments despite sharing a home.
“but there are days I just still want to look awake and alive, maybe even healthy.”
The Impact of Personality Differences
16:14 to 18:04
Explore how kids' differing personalities affect family dynamics.
“Amy, there's another thing about shared environment that I want to point out, which is that kids do have really different personalities.”
Environmental Factors in Sibling Relationships
18:09 to 19:30
Examine how external environments can influence sibling relationships.
“Well, but also those environments can affect the family.”
The Role of Family Dynamics and Comparison
19:34 to 21:08
Discuss how family roles and comparisons can exaggerate sibling differences.
“The third theory is sort of like maybe none of it's true, that families are comparison machines that exaggerate differences and reinforce them.”
Show all 18 chapters
The Influence of Birth Order on Sibling Identity
21:10 to 22:39
Analyze how birth order impacts identities and perceptions among siblings.
“There was a study, Penn State, they looked at almost 400 teenage siblings and they talked to their parents and the researchers asked the parents which sibling is better at school.”
Understanding De-identification Among Siblings
22:41 to 24:18
Learn about de-identification and its effects on sibling relationships.
“together and doesn't need anything from you.”
Counterprogramming for Sibling Dynamics
24:20 to 26:52
Discuss strategies to counteract societal pressures in sibling relationships.
“The kids seem like they can be truly, it's not your imagination.”
Counterprogramming for Sibling Dynamics
26:56 to 28:07
Discuss strategies to counteract societal pressures in sibling relationships.
“Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be in closed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name.”
Pros and Cons of Different Kid Personalities
28:46 to 29:50
Exploring various types of kids and the advantages and disadvantages of each.
“And now, the pros and cons of different type of kids.”
Understanding Family Role Assignment Theory
29:50 to 36:58
Delving into the theory of family roles and their impact on sibling dynamics.
“Murray Bowen created something called family role assignment theory, which is kind of what we were talking about in the second part, which he hypothesized.”
Exploring Family Operating Systems
36:58 to 40:09
Discussing how family roles shape individual personalities and communication.
“Your personality is an operating system that works really well in certain situations and poorly in other situations.”
Research Insights on Sibling Dynamics
40:09 to 40:45
Highlighting research on sibling differences and development.
“Or are there parts of it I want to try to change?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Heidi Rock:This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. Reese, our content agent, wrote the copy based on our best practices, like mentioning Monday.com three times. That was the second. Johnny, our coordination agent, built the timeline and kept everyone aligned. Olivia, our human creative director, stayed in the loop. Because agents are great, but they don't always know when a joke lands. She had one note. Tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So, minutes. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. I'm actually a mini parent. What Fresh Hell.
0:35Anne Imholte:Laughing in the face of motherhood.
0:38Heidi Rock:I'm moving to California with my new wife. With Margaret Ables. And Amy Wilson. They don't get along right now. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas. So you don't have to.
0:49Anne Imholte:And I chose being an irritant. And I got a lot of attention for it.
0:57Heidi Rock:Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today we're going to talk about why siblings who grew up in the same house, same parents, can be such total, total opposites sometimes. I mean, I'm soaking in it, Amy. How can they be so different? There's fascinating research behind this and people disagree on why. And anyway, so we'll get into this. Both of us have big families with closely spaced siblings, which we'll talk about why that's a uniquely intensifying factor for the opposite making machine. But how did this play out in your own family of origin?
1:30Anne Imholte:I mean, textbook. My brother and sister and I are born a year apart, basically. My brother was extremely intellectual and academic. My sister was extremely intellectual and academic. And I came out with like middle fingers raised. I'm not doing school. I'm a rebel without a clue. Black sheep fought with my mom constantly. Looking back, I'm much clearer that I was not making individual decisions as much as like playing out a historical landscape of third child. Sometimes it's like second sons. I was the Harry to my siblings, William, you know, like they towed the line and did everything that was expected of them.
2:20Anne Imholte:And I was like, I'm moving to California with my new wife.
2:22Heidi Rock:So your sister and your older brother, so they're like barely more than a year apart. And then you and your sister was second or really more than a year apart. The two of them didn't opposite making in the same way, maybe because they're a boy and a girl, which is already opposite enough. Correct. Two girls close base in age can't be exactly the same. Well, in my family of origin, I'm the oldest of six kids and I have a brother who is 16 months younger than me. Again, I think it's like oldest boy, oldest girl of a big family of six kids. We kind of are more alike than we are different. Of course, we're different.
2:54Heidi Rock:We're a boy and a girl, but we grew up in the 70s and 80s pursuing boy things and girl things for sure. Right. So maybe that helped. And then I have two sisters who are what is sometimes called Irish twins, which means they're less than a year apart in age. There's six days a year that my sisters of the same age and they are day and night. Snow, white and rose, red, whatever you want to say. They are opposite making machine.
3:19Anne Imholte:My sister and I miss being Irish twins by 11 days. We're born September 4th and September 15th. She's one year and 11 days older than me. Just complete opposites as kids. We had the matching bowl haircuts, but mine was white and hers was dark. I mean, we were physically look different. We acted different. Everything we did was different. Now, as middle-aged women, I don't think the differences between us are as stark as they used to be, but definitely as children, we were the inverse negative versions of each other.
3:50Heidi Rock:For my own kids, I have two boys who are very close in age, again, 19 months apart. As you said, they're older now, but their need to be different than each other, whatever that is, has become less intense as they've gotten older. but they are very naturally very different personalities, very interested in different things. Everybody who taught the one would then teach the other and say, oh my gosh, you're so different from your brother, you know, going both ways. And it's just, it's true.
4:18Anne Imholte:My sister has two kids and I mean, we used to call them Niles Crane and Bam Bam. One is like, must be vigilant at all times because do not step outside the lines. And the other one is the Tasmanian Devil. They're like a funny sitcom. And again, as they get older, that is fading a little bit. But when they were little kids, it was like Tasmanian devil and Prince Charles.
4:41Heidi Rock:So it is a thing that like anybody who has more than one kid can definitely point to like there's these ways that they're so different. So the first thing I wanted to look into is, is this true or does it just feel true? Are they a little bit different and they just feel, quote unquote, opposite because they're in the same house? The first thing to note is that just because siblings share DNA, they have the same two parents, that they share only about 50 % of their parents' DNA, if you have the same two parents. About 50 % of my DNA is the same as my sister's, and 50 % is completely different.
5:11Heidi Rock:So, of course, you're going to be pretty different.
5:13Anne Imholte:There are stories all the time about an interracial couple that has twins, and one will have dark hair, dark eyes, dark skin, and the other one will have fair skin, blue eyes. and they're twins. And so clearly we know that DNA plays out in some very unusual ways.
5:30Heidi Rock:And DNA really does play out in behavioral ways and proclivities and things you're good at and things you're not good at. That's also in your DNA more than we used to think it was. It's not just as your hair curly or straight. So Dr. Robert Plowman, he studies behavioral genetics and studies it within families too. And way back in the 1980s, he did a study looking at the ways that siblings are usually studied and compared to each other. First one is physique, which is obvious. Like two of you have mom's hair and two of you have dad's nose. One is intelligence. He's not quite as smart as a sister or whatever.
6:03Heidi Rock:And then the third is personality. And when he studied it, he's like, in general, yes. Physique, my two boys, who I think look, quote unquote, nothing alike, they're starting to look more alike as they get into their 20s. But they also look, of course, far more alike than two strangers on the street. Right. They have different coloring, different this. but like okay you can tell they're probably related they're more alike than different similarly cognitive abilities siblings are more likely to be in the same zip code and iq and other things and how they do in school than you and the stranger on the street but the third thing tests that measure personality like how extroverted you are or how competitive dr ploman found that siblings were not much more in common in behavioral studies than somebody on the street.
6:49Heidi Rock:That's interesting. You are as likely to be like me as you are to be like your sister or not like that. It was way different. It wasn't ballpark same. Personality was where it really diverged. That's super interesting. Isn't that interesting? So since the 80s, everybody's been like, oh, that's interesting. So this is true. So why is this? It doesn't destroy imagination. The kids are so different in the same family. So there are three different theories as to why kids are total opposites in the same house. And some of these theories, they disagree with each other. and like no R's is the reason why.
7:19Heidi Rock:So I think they're probably all the reason why, but let's go through them. So the first one is called divergence. Maybe you studied this in high school biology class. So the theory of divergence. Our friend Darwin. Yes, Darwin's origin of species. So he studied finches on the Galapagos Island, Charles Darwin, 150 years ago. There were 14 kinds of finches on this island and he thought they're all different birds, but then he came to figure out because he was Charles Darwin that they had in fact all evolved from the same bird. So how could they be so different and why be so different at all in this island place that was pretty friendly to them anyway?
7:55Heidi Rock:So he decided his theory of natural selection is that as we evolve, the species that face the least competition from others are more likely to survive. Evolution occurs over eons for me to have something that's different from you so that there's less competition. So I'll evolve to have a longer beak than you, and you're going to evolve to have prettier feathers than me or planar feathers than me.
8:21Anne Imholte:And then we have different food sources. Like if your beak is longer than mine, you're eating something different.
8:26Heidi Rock:That's right. But I can go lower into the pond. Yes. Right. Right. So species evolve to minimize competition. So therefore, you can apply this to humans, too, that children do this, too, that they evolve adaptively. You don't know you're doing it. Like, I would argue that you as a five-year-old weren't like, my brother and sister are smart, so I'm going to pick something else. You just did it. I'm going to pick annoying. Hmm, I'm going to ride a motorcycle.
8:49Anne Imholte:You know, you're just like, yeah, you're just like, I'm going to. Right, right, right. Why would I want to do that? But something deep in my lizard DNA is telling me that the resources for praise of intelligence are already spread too thin. So I better find a different outlet. Yes. And I chose being an irritant.
9:11Heidi Rock:And I got a lot of attention for it. That's right. If you're competing for attention, one way is to get the gold stars and one way is to not get the gold stars. The other way is to poop on the kitchen table. Right. Metaphorically only. So Frank Salloway, he studies family dynamics. We did an episode on birth order a long time ago. We'll link to that in the show notes because his work on birth order is fascinating. He says, like, look, kids do this. If one kid is good in school, he says the sibling will be good at something else, whether that's a conscious decision or not. They're just going to.
9:39Heidi Rock:He was the one who really kind of first put forth the idea about birth order, which is related to this. It's not the same thing, but that he says eldest children in a family system identify with the status quo, with the parents, the authority, and that younger children rebel against the status quo in any family system.
9:58Anne Imholte:You don't say, Amy. You don't say. Yeah.
10:00Heidi Rock:So I'm the oldest being like, yes, you have to do what mom and dad says in case I'm actually a mini parent. And you were like, not so fast. Right. So kids differentiate from each other because that's how they get resources and attention. So that's one theory that it's divergence that we all are just like Darwin's finches. The second theory is you're not seeing this the right way. The environment you think is shared is actually a non-shared environment. So family therapist Annie Wright says, children raised in the same household do not in any clinically meaningful sense grow up in the same family.
10:37Heidi Rock:We just think you share the same environment. Right.
10:39Anne Imholte:You can't step in the same river twice. This is the idea that like the change is so constant. You have this in your family and my father has this in his family where he and his sister will have conversations. And he's like, well, remember growing up? And she's like, I never grew up with you. There's 17 years difference between them. And it's like, no, I don't remember that. I wasn't there. And even my sister, who's five years younger, we will occasionally reference things. And it's like, oh, that's right. You were two. we were seven, eight, and nine. Well, that's right. She did have an extremely different experience.
11:12Anne Imholte:The three of us kind of grew up like triplets. And then she had five years by herself with our parents when we left for college as well. So she was kind of the tag along for years and then was the lonely only for years. And she had both experiences that none of the rest of us had.
11:30Heidi Rock:Dr. Plumman says that's one of the ways that this plays out. That differences in age cause a sibling to experience the same event, the death of a parent or a grandparent, divorce, a move, the fire, you know, whatever it is. If you're two and you were nine, you're going to remember that differently and it will affect you completely differently.
11:49Anne Imholte:Remember that differently. And like, I know families where there was a tragedy and the kids who were older went on to recover and the kids that were younger struggle for the rest of their lives. Like the impact on the younger kids was just much more profound. It's not just like, oh, it might tweak your personality a little bit. Like your ability to survive an incident is probably very tied to your age and developmental.
12:14Heidi Rock:To who you were at the time. Yeah. Let's take a break. When we come back, let's talk more about how the shared environment is not as shared as we think it is. After a long day in the summer sun, my skin needs a hydration reset. That's why I love Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum. It's super lightweight to put on, no waiting 10 minutes before you can even get dressed. And even though I'm just starting to use it, the hyaluronic acid is really helping my skin retain more moisture. Amy, agree.
12:43Anne Imholte:Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum delivers multi-level nonstop hydration to support the skin's moisture barrier. It provides soothing hydration even for sensitive skin like mine and was recently awarded the National Eczema Association Seal of Acceptance.
12:59Heidi Rock:Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum is made for everyday use or just when your skin is in need of a little TLC. Instantly refresh your summer stressed skin with this cooling, refreshing, weightless and powerfully hydrating serum.
13:13Anne Imholte:For real, guys, I'm loving Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum. It's a multi-layer hyaluronic powered hydration for the entire body. And right now we have a special discount just for you. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide with code FRESH at OSEAMALIBU.COM. That's code FRESH at O-S-E-A-MALIBU.COM. Amy, you know I'm going to my big family wedding this summer, and thanks to Nutrafol, I do not have to worry about grabbing my husband's phone to immediately delete most of the photos because my hair is going to be on point.
13:51Heidi Rock:I love it. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed, NSF certified for sport and clinically tested.
14:08Anne Imholte:Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause and lifestyle factors such as plant based diet. so you get the support that's right for you.
14:21Heidi Rock:Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. Order online, no prescription needed, with automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol.
14:39Anne Imholte:For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing.
Read the full transcript
14:49Heidi Rock:That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code laughing. Summer is not a time for a full face of makeup, but there are days I just still want to look awake and alive, maybe even healthy. And to do all that, really, I only need one thing. Miracle Balm from Jones Road Beauty. I love their Miracle Balm. I have it in four different colors. I'm currently obsessed with Happy Hour, which I use as like a highlighter, bronzer, a little bit of a blush. You can even use it on your lips. It's the ultimate no-fuss multitasker. I throw it in my purse. I dab a little Miracle Balm on my cheeks and lips and the bridge of my nose.
15:31Heidi Rock:And wherever I am, I look completely natural and just a little polished at the same time. And Jones Road actually just launched their foundation stick for buildable, real coverage that feels completely weightless on your skin and looks like everything Jones Road makes totally natural. Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic, and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free full-size mascara on their first Jones Road purchase when they use code FRESH at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use the code FRESH at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them.
16:08Heidi Rock:Please support What Fresh Hell and tell them our podcast sent you.
16:14Anne Imholte:Amy, there's another thing about shared environment that I want to point out, which is that kids do have really different personalities. They come out really differently. And so although we don't usually like to talk about and acknowledge this, parents have different relationships with their kids and kids who they get along with better and more easily than other ones of their kids. Like it is not a static environment and parents do not have the same relationship with every one of their kids.
16:40Heidi Rock:Well, and also the parents different. I'm a different parent with my first kid than I was with my third kid. My parents, I have a brother who my parents had almost 20 years after me. Yes, he's going to be raised by different parents who are probably more relaxed in a lot of ways and less stressed as the siblings get later. Right. So that's another way it's a non-shared environment.
16:58Anne Imholte:But personality-wise, when I was younger, and I know she would say the same thing, my mother and I were just oil and water in a way that she just related to the kids who were doing all the right things and fulfilling her expectations in a specific way in a different way than she related to me. My mother and I ended up truly being like besties and getting along great later in life. But as kids, I did not have the same relationship with my mother than my two siblings who were checking all the boxes did. Yeah, so you're bringing who you are, they're bringing who they are, and it's not the same. And time and age and all this thing.
17:32Anne Imholte:But even though we were functionally almost like triplets, we still didn't have the same parents.
17:37Heidi Rock:Then, as the kid ages and spends more time out of the house, they're literally having separate environments. I was going to play practice and my brother was going to basketball practice. The choices that you're making and that your parents help you make, whatever, continue to reinforce these differences. that once you leave the house, going to college or whatever you're doing, you're not in the same environment at all. And you're continuing to be, to grow more differently. And then all of a sudden notice you're more alike than you thought you were, which is fascinating that it kind of bends back like a horseshoe towards, we're not so different after all, now that we don't live
18:08Anne Imholte:together. Well, but also those environments can affect the family. So if there's a kid who's particularly good at baseball and you're spending most of your family's time devoted to that kid's baseball or you have a child with special needs and a lot of the resources of the family are devoted to taking care of that child or you have a child who god forbid has a childhood cancer and you're spending you know weeks at a time visiting the hospital or mom and dad are away like the variables that come into a family it's not as we kind of like to think of it mom and dad love everybody equally and that's how it goes.
18:48Anne Imholte:Like you may love everybody equally, but you're not having an equal relationship with all your kids at any given time. It's impossible to do so.
18:55Heidi Rock:Every family member has a position in the emotional system of a family. Yes. So you're right. Like if you have a kid who's going through cancer treatment, even though everybody's experiencing that together, of course, the kid who's sick has a different space in the family's emotional system than the siblings. So this is Annie Wright. I'll quote her. She says, yes, you grew up in the same house as your siblings, but you had different teachers who praised or criticized you. You had different friends who influenced you and you occupied a different position in your family's emotional system. And that different position is its own developmental environment.
19:27Heidi Rock:So going with the second theory, it's like it's not the same anyway. Right. It's not surprising at all. Of course, you're different. You grew up in different environments. OK. The third theory is sort of like maybe none of it's true, that families are comparison machines that exaggerate differences and reinforce them. If we're sisters and you're really outgoing, then I'm the shy one, even though I'm not really actually shy. I'm just not the most outgoing child anybody's ever met. Right. We tend to put our kids, one's a picky eater and one will eat anything. Okay. Are they really 180 degrees opposite or are they like 40 degrees opposite and you're turning it into a binary because you're putting these two kids against each other?
20:04Heidi Rock:Dr. Alex Jensen from Brigham Young says parents' beliefs about their children and not just their actual parenting does influence who the children become.
20:12Anne Imholte:Agree. And also, I think, family systems that are more fragile or more fraught, the famous Anna Karenina quote is all happy families are alike and each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way, unhappy in its own way. But I think that particularly families that have more dysfunction tend to have heightened comparison and familial roles. I mean, like the golden child who they like favor and then the black sheep in less functional households. These things get extremely exaggerated. And I don't just mean like abusive, mom's a drug addict, really dysfunctional households. I think this exists on a long spectrum where everybody has some of these problems that are heightened within their household of origin.
21:07Heidi Rock:Right. So your birth order maybe means you're playing a certain role and then it goes the other way. There was a study, Penn State, they looked at almost 400 teenage siblings and they talked to their parents and the researchers asked the parents which sibling is better at school. And the parents overwhelmingly said the older one was better at school, even though the actual research showed they were about the same. That, as we said before, siblings are more alike in intelligence levels than different. They're far more likely to be pretty similar compared to two strangers, unlike personality. Their intelligence is the same, but we internalize this idea that the first one is the go-getter and the achiever and the golden child and all that, and then we say that it's true even when it's not really.
21:49Anne Imholte:These studies are interesting, but I want to underscore that we can work against them, but if you're listening and being like, oh my god I do that I'm a terrible person like these things are bone deep they go like my differentiation from my siblings by being quote-unquote like the rebel bad kid that was not stoppable by my parents like birth order is a little bit of a lottery like the lottery balls and you kind of get picked we can and I think it's useful think about how these things shape us and be at the controls as much as possible. But some of this stuff, it goes so deep. So I just don't want people to be listening and be like, oh, I said that once that my older kid was the smarter one or better at school.
22:36Anne Imholte:It goes deep.
22:37Heidi Rock:And then, yeah, I think it's work you do as an adult. And it's just something to be aware of. Like, don't assume your oldest kid always has their act together and doesn't need anything from you. Yes. Because maybe they do and maybe they don't. But you're right. This is the role we're all playing. There's another truly intensifying factor for all of this that we were talking about in the beginning. We just didn't label it. It's called de-identification. When siblings are closely spaced, and especially when they're closely spaced and same gender, the divergence becomes super intense. It's called de-identification.
23:08Heidi Rock:That's my sisters. We're very close in age in your family. See my entire personality.
23:13Anne Imholte:Yeah. My sister and I were a year and 11 days apart, and it was my completely unintended and subconscious goal in life to be different than her and like my whole like yada yada yada fuzzy bear like i'm so funny personality is predicated on being a year and 11 days younger than a high achieving sibling like those two things cannot be pulled apart they are woven together and that's all i mean in terms of like Some of this stuff is the hand you're dealt. And I don't think that my parents would have, should have, or could have tried to be like, it's okay to also be smart, just like Kate. That's fine, too.
23:53Anne Imholte:There's room for both. Some of this stuff is so deep in biology. It's like there's only so many resources and you have to find ways to prioritize your needs. That stuff is just deep, deep, deep in our DNA. And I don't think our level of control over it is super high. It's not like we're identifying this to be like, you shouldn't let your kids do de-identification. They're going to.
24:18Heidi Rock:Yeah, this episode is strictly, is it our imagination? The kids seem like they can be truly, it's not your imagination. And here's why. And if they're very close in age and they're the same sex. Right. My boys, I saw this playing out. No, I didn't have a problem with it at all. And I feel like I really leaned into it. My younger one was having a little bit of an issue when I was trying to save myself effort and have them both play soccer. And like, sure, the three-year-old can go to the four-year-old soccer. It's good enough, right? One place to go. Well, it wasn't good enough because my younger kid was feeling bad that he couldn't like run, kick, whatever, as fast as kids who were 12, 18 months older than him, which was an impossibility, as you say, like a biological imperative.
25:01Heidi Rock:Like they're older than you. They're getting all the resources. So quickly, I'm like, this isn't a good idea. And I leaned into their very natural de-identification. like one liked to sing, one liked to draw, one liked to play soccer, one liked to play baseball. And we just had them do separate things, which if you can do it, if you have the bandwidth to have somebody to take two kids, two places, I think is a really good way to let this be. As you say, I wasn't like, no, no, you guys have to be best friends. You guys have to both do this together. I just was like, they don't get along right now.
25:29Heidi Rock:Let's have them do everything separately, except for like, you know, dinner and bedtime. And I was very much not trying to stop the de-identification that I was seeing.
25:38Anne Imholte:I think that's smart to lean into. I mean, certainly when I was growing up, I went into every classroom like, oh, you're John and Kate's sister. Oh, you're going to be the smartest kid in class. And I was like, watch me, babe. I think some of this stuff is also naturally like we talk about not telling young girls like you're so cute. You're so beautiful. That is going to seep through. Like we are not going to overcome a society that values women based on their looks by never telling our kids they're beautiful. But being aware that that message is constant, we can lean out from it and be like, I love the way you kick a soccer ball.
26:18Anne Imholte:And just trying to counter program a little bit what is 24 hour a day programming. It doesn't mean your kids are never going to be interested in physical beauty because, hi, we live in America in 2026, where physical beauty is for women is prized above all other things. That's going to affect them. But you could do a little work at counterprogramming that. Like that's for me, that's the least interesting thing about you.
26:45Heidi Rock:Let's take a break. When we come back, there's a little more to talk about on the way we can not feel bad about this, but use our awareness about it to maybe parent a little differently.
26:56Anne Imholte:Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be in closed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name. Let's say it together on three. One, two, three. Great Wolf Lodge. You got it, Amy.
27:17Heidi Rock:My kids loved Great Wolf Lodge when we went. You probably already know that it has a huge indoor water park with a wave pool, lazy river, a bunch of massive water slides. But then your pack can hit the other attractions because wait, there's more. Great Wolf Lodge has adventure
27:33Anne Imholte:packed attractions like Magi Quest, a live action game kids can play throughout the lodge. Plus the Northern Lights Arcade spent some quality time there. So your kid who loves the lazy river and your kid who loves fantasy games will both have a great time.
27:47Heidi Rock:Great Wolf Lodge also offers great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties. All under one roof. Unpack the car once and you're settled in to have fun. And with 22 lodges across the country, you're always a short drive away from adventure.
28:01Anne Imholte:We've both had such great times at Great Wolf Lodge, so bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack.
28:12Heidi Rock:Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan,$15 a month, even unlimited. That's it. Happy ending. Zero tears. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy.
28:41Heidi Rock:See terms.
28:46Anne Imholte:And now, the pros and cons of different type of kids. From the What Fresh Out podcast.
28:52Heidi Rock:The band geek. Pros. Probably not involved in the school's party scene or dating scene or literally any other scene that would be even vaguely worrisome. Cons. You're going to be hearing Hang On Sloopy played on the bassoon more than a thousand times this year. The class president. Pros. Parent-teacher conferences are always easy as can be. Cons. Every time you want the garbage taken out, you're in for a 30-minute lecture about your poor recycling techniques. The sensitive poetess. Pros. On track for a scholarship to an East Coast Women's College. Cons. We'll eventually write a novella that critiques your parenting.
29:30Heidi Rock:The jock. Pros. A large protein shake in the morning and he's all set. Cons. You will literally never sleep in on a Saturday morning ever again. This has been the pros and cons of different types of kids from the What Fresh L podcast. So Dr. Murray Bowen created something called family role assignment theory, which is kind of what we were talking about in the second part, which he hypothesized. And everybody since then is like, yeah, this is true. As you say, facts entered into evidence that there's this thing, family role assignment. A family system designates different children to carry different emotional and functional roles within the family's emotional economy.
30:13Heidi Rock:This rule assignment is rarely explicit or conscious. Of course it isn't. Yeah, you have one kid that demands a lot of attention. The other kid smoothly overnight becomes the kid who's never any trouble to anybody and is so independent and never asks for any of that, right, that these rules just evolve. He says these things evolve from the family's anxiety management patterns. So every family has anxiety management. The parents own unresolved material. OK, heard. Right. And the children's birth positions and their particular temperaments. As you said, somebody comes out looking for a fight and somebody comes out, you know, super in a good mood every day.
30:49Heidi Rock:They're born with their personalities. Their birth positions shape their personalities. Our unresolved stuff shapes their personalities. And then the anxiety management around the things that are happening to us as a family further solidify those rules. It's not, as you said, it's not avoidable, but it is true and a little awareness of it. If you are in a intense anxiety management pattern, I think is a good thing. Absolutely.
31:13Anne Imholte:I have talked before that my husband and I got married in the Catholic Church and we did pre-cana, which is this premarital counseling that I drove the whole way down. We were living in L.A. It was down in Orange County, like, oh, what a waste of time. And my husband, to his credit, sort of said, as he often does with me, what if we just approached it without all the cynicism and saw what we could get out of it? Right. We're doing it. So we're doing it already. What if we just made the best of it? And it was unbelievably useful. Like, what are your family's patterns? How does your family communicate?
31:45Anne Imholte:What are some of the patterns that were things that we might want to replicate in our home, of which there are many? What are some of the patterns that we don't want to replicate in our home, of which there are many? And I think the work starts with what is the truth? And we don't always want to look at that. It's important to say behavior is communication, right? If you're seeing behaviors from your kids, I know sometimes my kids, I'll see some like acting out behaviors and I'll think, oh, that's right. We've been spending a lot of time on the other kid because they have something big going on.
32:21Anne Imholte:And I will almost write in my calendar, pay attention to child X this week, because I can see that we're getting overly focused. And sometimes there are seasons of this, kids are playing a competitive sport, kids are applying to colleges, kids are going through a really rough social emotional time in their schooling. There are times where it's very natural that you're paying more attention to one kid than the other. But behavior is communication, and you should be listening for a kid who is telling you, I'm not getting enough attention.
32:56Heidi Rock:Yeah. Who might be doing that in the most surprising and unconscious of ways, right? Yes, absolutely. I'm going to quote Dr. Alex Jensen from Brigham Young. He says, it's hard for parents not to notice or think about differences among their children. It's only natural. So we're not saying whatever you do, don't notice the differences. But Dr. Jensen says, to help all children succeed, focus on recognizing the strengths of each child and be careful about vocally making comparisons in front of them.
33:26Anne Imholte:Yeah. I mean, this seems so obvious, but it's so important. I mean, we've talked about this like, oh, don't give him that. He doesn't like it. He's a picky eater. Don't offer him that. And trying to lean out of that a little bit, which I don't always do. And sometimes I'm like, I'm talking about years ago, but my kid is going going to have a nervous breakdown if you offer them a hot tub with mustard on top. Can you just leave the mustard off? I mean, I'm not always 100 % on this, but I think watching the definition of like, she'll be fine. Amy's the responsible one. I don't have to check her homework, but Meg is a mess.
34:02Anne Imholte:So I need to stay on top of her all the time with her homework. Both of those things can feed into a narrative that is not ideal.
34:10Heidi Rock:Yeah. It was like when we were saying in the last episode about like the people feel free to come up to your kids and say that the job that they've picked for themselves is a bad idea for some reason that lots of people like people think it's interesting it is interesting i guess i shouldn't hold it against them it is interesting to comment on how different this one is than their sister or brother how she's so shy compared to this and they're so brave compared to this one and to make those comparisons in front of your kids they're not doing it to like do anything bad they're mentioning something that's fascinating and interesting.
34:41Heidi Rock:But I do think that there's a role to be like, well, I think, I don't know. I don't know how you respond to that. It's like the beauty thing.
34:47Anne Imholte:You can counter program it. That's the thing, because I think we sometimes make a mistake in the 2020s of being like, this stops at me stopping everybody calling my child beautiful because I know that's bad for them. Right. That's not realistic. Like the world values female beauty more than other things. And And if you have a beautiful child, they are going to get praised for that quite often. All you can really do is counter program it, point it out, give voice to it. Oh, I know people think that you're shy compared to your brother, but I saw you when you were at the grocery store, go up and ask for that thing.
35:26Anne Imholte:Just giving voice to what is happening. I mean, it's funny to me. Sometimes kids will give voice to things that are really different than what I think. Like I'm giving an example that's not for my own children. I will think one of my kids is struggling in school and my other kid will say, I wish I was smart like that kid. And I'm like, wait, what? Like, that's not how I'm reading it at all. Let your kids give voice to what's going on with them as well. My kid who's amazing at baseball and is going to college on a baseball scholarship we spend all the time with, my other kid must be jealous of them.
36:01Anne Imholte:Maybe, but maybe not. Like, be careful of filling in the blanks for what's going on.
36:06Heidi Rock:Yeah, that's a good point.
36:07Anne Imholte:Because you're not always right about what that is. There's just been so many times where I've been surprised that how I perceive my kids and how they perceive themselves does not line up one to one.
36:19Heidi Rock:In the end, just to go back to an important point you were making, isn't it weird how siblings are so different? Yes. Isn't it cool how many kinds of birds there are? You know, that it's just something fascinating that we all notice. And it does seem kind of crazy that they grew up sitting next to each other and one does this all the time and one does that all the time. But it is something to be, I think, aware of, fascinated by, not concerned by. And it's certainly not something, as you said, that you're supposed to like push back against. It's great that we can survive and find the people we really want to be.
36:50Heidi Rock:Even if you thought you wanted to be a rebel and you're really a rebel because you had a sister who was, you know, 13 months older than you.
36:55Anne Imholte:Good at everything. Yes. Go for it. Be a rebel. It's comforting to me, and I feel like I've learned this more as an older person, that every person and every family and every system has an operating system, that no one is just neutral. Your personality is an operating system that works really well in certain situations and poorly in other situations. And that I think a lot of the key to life is understanding what your operating system is. What is our family operating system? What are the roles that we have assigned to different people in our family? And are they serving us? Like, that's just a really valuable question.
37:39Anne Imholte:and some of this is tied that you cannot stand against. I mean, I'll never be the person I would have been if I had been the oldest sibling because I was the third sibling. Those two things are mutually exclusive and sometimes it weirds you out. I thought this was my personality, but it's really just a reaction to having the two siblings that I had. Like that weirds me out. But if you find yourself in an operating system that is still operating in opposition to your five and six-year-old siblings when you are 35, that's probably worth exploring. Maybe talking to a therapist about, like, can I get out of this mode where my whole personality is about surviving in a system that I haven't been part of for 30 years?
38:24Anne Imholte:Definitely worth asking that question. And so it's not that you can function without an operating system, but I do think you can say, what is my operating system? Where does that come from? And is it serving me? And then like, what is my operating system in regards to my children? And is that serving us as a family? And are there variables within it? Because sometimes there's not. My family system is leave everything a huge mess and then clean up in a panic before people come over. And it doesn't serve us. But 400 times we've tried to change it. And I think we're just people who live messy and then clean up quickly when people are coming over.
39:05Anne Imholte:Like I have decided that's not a variable and I'm going to stop fighting it. So I think all of those pieces, what is my operating system and what within it are variables are questions we should just be asking ourselves all the time.
39:16Heidi Rock:I like this idea that everybody has an operating system, just like everybody has an accent, right? You tend to think of yourself like, no, I talk regular. I eat regular food and my family's regular. No, you have an accent. Your food is specific and your family system is specific. So the goal isn't don't have a family system. The goal is a little more awareness about the roles.
39:36Anne Imholte:Yeah. And then an operating system can be customized to make it work better for your needs on your computer, like an operating system that does advanced math. I don't need that on my computer. I need one that podcasts and records well and can save the 5 ,000 pictures I take. So you can be like, I need an operating system that makes the most sense for how I want to live. And it starts with really examining like all these interesting questions that you brought up today. Why is my operating system the way it is? And do I like it? Or are there parts of it I want to try to change? And if so, can I change them?
40:12Heidi Rock:Yeah, this was a particularly research heavy episode. So I'm going to put the links to Darwin's Finches and Frank Salloway's birth order research and Annie Wright's idea that it's only our imagination that our kids grew up in the same household as each other. Nope, they didn't. I mean, literally the same household. Yes. And a different developmental system. Completely different. So lots of interesting stuff. If this spoke to you, you can, and you're a research nerd like me, check out the show notes and send it to your sibling with whom you're extremely de-identified. Love it. And with that, thanks for listening.
40:47Heidi Rock:We'll talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody.
40:59Anne Imholte:Thank you to Osea for sponsoring the show. Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum is multi-layer, hyaluronic-powered hydration for the entire body. And right now, we have a special discount just for you. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide with code FRESH at OseaMalibu.com. That's code FRESH at O-S-E-A Malibu dot com.
From the publisher
If you've ever looked at your very different children and wondered how they could possibly share the same DNA, same parents, and same upbringing, you're not alone— and you're imagining things.
Research shows that while siblings are usually more alike in appearance and intelligence than we sometimes think, their personalities are as different from one another as they would be from a stranger on the street.
Why is that? This week, we discuss:
Why siblings can have vastly different personalities despite common upbringings
How birth order influences family dynamics
Why "de-identification" tends to be more intense when siblings are closer in age
Why "the same household" doesn't actually tell the whole story
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Alix Spiegel for NPR: Siblings Share Genes, But Rarely Personalities
Dr. Robert Plomin and Dr. Judy Dunn: Why Are Siblings So Different? The Significance of Differences in Sibling Experiences Within the Family
Dr. Frank Sullaway: Why Siblings Are Like Darwin's Finches: Birth Order, Sibling Competition, and Adaptive Divergence within the Family
Daniel Goleman for the NYT: Each Sibling Experiences a Different Family
Dr. Robert Plomin and Dr Denise Daniels: Why are Children in the Same Family So Different From One Another?
Science Daily: Parents’ Comparisons Make Siblings Different
Dr. Alexander Jensen and Dr. Susan McHale: What makes siblings different? The development of sibling differences in academic achievement and interests.
Annie Wright, LMFT: Same Family, Different Survival: Why You and Your Sibling Turned Out So Differently
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
