How Should We Support Our Kids' Passions?

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17:51Heidi Rosenberg:So I think this is a super interesting debate because I think people of our generation, there has been this very fundamental shift. I mean, agree or disagree, Amy?

17:59Annie D. W. Hargreaves:I do see, because I have kids who are old enough to be being asked about their career paths, and I am amazed how free grownups feel to tell your kid that the path that they're choosing for themselves is not a good idea because they won't make enough money or it'll be too hard. I have a kid who wants to be a doctor. And the amount of grownups who will say to my kid, are you sure you want to do that? Are you sure you want to take on that? Like, it doesn't pay very well. And that's a lot of time. Like, who are you? And I'm supporting my kid's passions by being proud of what my kid wants to do. Right.

18:30Annie D. W. Hargreaves:And then like other people are coming in and saying, you can't do that because it's not like all those are too unlikely. You need to pick something else. So I do think the world still comes at our kids with that. It's funny that people are like, doctor is a dangerous field to commit. You won't make enough money.

18:44Heidi Rosenberg:I'm like, go away. What are you talking about? It's kind of deranged. Yeah. I read two different articles that came at this from very different points of view. One is my parents told me to have a career that could support me. I'm telling my kids to follow their passions by Lindsay Karp. So this is kind of one side of the argument. When it came time for me to apply to college, my parents gave me two pieces of advice. Choose a career that pays enough to support yourself and one that will always have job vacancies. This is kind of the like old school, get a job that will pay the bills. I mean, I think that a lot of our parents were first generation or second generation immigrants who had moved here for a better life.

19:24Heidi Rosenberg:And their dream was like, my kid will be able to afford things without ever worrying about them. That was the number one thing on their list. Lindsey Karp says, I believe there's more to convey to children than choosing a career solely based on pay and job availability. Like any parent, I want my children to live comfortably and with job security, but I also want them to pursue a career they can't live without because that's what life is all about. I think this sentence is fairly bonkers. I want them to pursue a career they can't live without because that is what life is all about. I think that that expectation, basically, if your job isn't bringing you happiness, you're missing out on life.

20:07Heidi Rosenberg:that your job should be something you can't live without and expresses your passion. I think that is something I'm very anxious and interested in pushing back against.

20:20Annie D. W. Hargreaves:I think that's just an extremely poorly written sentence, like a career you can't live without, like there is no such thing. And that's what life is all about. What is life all about? Having the perfect job? I don't think that's what life is all about.

20:31Heidi Rosenberg:I think her argument is, and she's a freelance writer and she talks about pursuing writing as her career as opposed to something more stable and that freelance writing doesn't pay as well as other things she could have pursued. But that she does what she loves for a living is very important and she wants to encourage her children to do that.

20:50Annie D. W. Hargreaves:I think it's like you've said that the idea that you have a soulmate and there's only one, it's kind of a nice thought, but you met the best person out of the people that you've met. This is the best person for you, right? You could probably have another soulmate if you went to Africa for your junior year abroad. Who knows, right? The decisions you made led you to the person that you're with. Similarly, the idea that there's one career for you and you could never be happy doing anything else, I think is sort of glamorous to say, but I don't really believe that that's true, that we are all only happy doing one thing.

21:19Heidi Rosenberg:I'll take it much further. I remember my uncle saying to me at some point, we were never told that jobs were supposed to be fun. We were told that jobs were work. You do an exchange for money so that you could have fun later on. And I think we are giving our kids a happiness expectation overall that is dangerous and may not serve them very well in life. Jobs can be a lot of things, but I think the idea that a job is the only good job is an expression of your internal passion and is a joyful experience in which you express that talent and gift is a very high bar to set for work. I mean, I don't know a ton of people who are having that life experience.

22:08Heidi Rosenberg:I think jobs can be a mixed bag. I don't think that everything has to be the coal mines and then you just are happy when you're on vacation from the coal mine. But I think layering on top of a life outcome expectation, this kind of constant top tier happiness and expressing your internal passion is a dangerous game.

22:32Annie D. W. Hargreaves:And then there is one job, there is one passion, there is one job, and you're going to do it and you can't live without it because that's what life means is that you're a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist or something. It's just that is a definite way to set yourself up for disappointment and unhappiness.

22:45Heidi Rosenberg:Lisa Heffernan, who we've had on the podcast, our push for passion and why it harms kids. She says, standing on the sidelines of my son's soccer game, I chatted with the younger sibling of one of his teammates. I don't really have a passion like my brother yet, he explained, glancing over at the field, but my parents are helping me look for one. I waited for the note of irony that never came. At some point in the last 20 years, the notion of passion as applied to children and teenagers took hold. By the time a child rounds the corner into high school and certainly before he sets up an account on the Common App, which is how you apply to colleges, the conventional wisdom is he needs to have a passion that is deep, easy to articulate, well-documented, and makes him stand out from the crowd.

23:31Heidi Rosenberg:And she argues for most children, childhood isn't about passion, but rather exploration. Our job as parents is to nurture that exploration, not put an end to it. When we create an expectation that children must find one true interest early in life, we cut short a process of discovery that may easily take a lifetime.

23:52Annie D. W. Hargreaves:You know, I think that it's true that when you're a high school junior, senior, you need to be able to say, like, I really do like this one thing and here's how I've shown that. That's a great way to get into a college that you're interested in. It is. But to be a nine-year-old on the sidelines, like I have to hurry up and find my passion is the sure way not to find the passion. It's a sure way to be like, I guess I like to save the whales because my mom signed me up for this summer intensive. So I guess I saved the whales. That's my thing. And that's then you're not happy and it's not your passion because you weren't allowed to explore.

24:20Heidi Rosenberg:Yeah. And I think that passions are a lifetime of exploration. And the idea that I think that we have unconsciously brought into the discourse is that passion equates purpose, that like passion becomes your job. I mean, we've talked about this with moms that like I like baking. Therefore, I have to start a YouTube channel where I teach other people to bake and make money from it. That like it's OK to have lots of things you love to do. And it's OK for those things not to become your job. I have a person in my life who has since early childhood been fascinated by history as their number one interest.

25:09Heidi Rosenberg:I'm talking about like two, three and four year olds who knew World War II historical facts and has since pursued a PhD in history and is finding, not surprisingly, the PhD, post-PhD job market frustrating and difficult. And I was having a conversation with this person at one point and they said, I think I might have made a mistake by making my passion my job, that that might not have been the right thing to do. That like I could have maybe just gotten a job and then written books on the side or pursued, done a history podcast or all sorts of ways to express that. But they were expressing some regret about marrying their passion and their profession, because now they were super dependent on a very difficult and complicated job market.

26:02Heidi Rosenberg:And I don't think that's true for everybody. But I think and I feel this instinct in myself, I have one kid who's kind of good at everything they try, just naturally, pretty good athlete, pretty good musician, just pick stuff up and is good at it. And their pattern has very much been pick up an instrument for two years, play it 12 hours a day. And I do find myself thinking, oh, they found the thing. They're going to be a musician and they're going to be in a band and oh, it's going to be amazing. And then they completely drop it. And now their next thing is soccer. That's all they care about is playing soccer.

26:39Heidi Rosenberg:And they're outside eight hours a day. This is a kid who's always been like, I think I'll teach myself to do a backflip this summer, just self-motivated. But it's hard for me not to be like, don't give up your instrument. You were so good at it. And like watching them explore different talents has been extremely challenging to me. And so I like thinking about this idea of like, what is passion and what is its role?

27:08Annie D. W. Hargreaves:So passion, I was thinking about this when you were saying this, it can be the idea that you have to lock it down to this job you can't live without. It's definitely a bad idea, I think. And in the case of like my kid who wants to be a doctor, my kid wants to be a doctor and wants to be a pediatrician. Their passion is not necessarily like Georgetown Medical School or a bus. Their passion is I want to make kids' lives better one at a time, right? Right. There are many ways to do that. And maybe it's medical school and maybe it isn't. But if you can help your kid focus on their why, like, why do you like baking?

27:40Annie D. W. Hargreaves:Because it makes everyone happy. I love spreading joy. Like, OK, there are ways to spread joy with your baking and with other passions that aren't I have to own my own bakery because it's the job I can't live without. Get into the why that's underneath the passion.

27:53Heidi Rosenberg:I think that's right. And I think medical school and becoming a doctor is a great example of something that may prove to be extremely challenging and not what this child was picturing when they started imagining helping people. And I think that having a child who's a doctor is exciting and good and great. You know, it's a great achievement. It's a lot of good things. But it is part of our job, I think, to help kids hold that more loosely than they might be inclined to. And I think my instinct, if I had a child going to medical school would be like, this is amazing. I'm going to have a kid who's a doctor.

28:32Heidi Rosenberg:This is great. They found their passion. And I think we have to check our instinct to say, there's a lot of ways, as you said, to help other people. There's a lot of ways to help kids. And as long as this is serving you, this is a great way to pursue that passion. But you may find, and I mean, I know in medical school, because I have a niece who just went through it. There's match day and there's a lot of stuff that goes into it that is really out of your control, is really tricky, cannot go well. And I think maybe one of the most important aspects of going into medical school is having an exit door somewhere along the way that is okay.

29:14Heidi Rosenberg:And also acknowledging that like being a doctor is great and impressive, but also very hard, very tough mentally. You know, there's a lot of pieces to that passion that I think we can lose sight of in like my kid is going to play in a band and be famous and I'm going to get to go to arena shows and be like, that's my kid playing the bass.

29:37Annie D. W. Hargreaves:I had a fairy godmother like experience with one of my kids around this in terms of like an exit door being offered to them. Can I tell you what it was after this?

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31:45Heidi Rosenberg:And now, what we say about our quirky kids versus what we mean. From the What Fresh Hell podcast.

31:51Annie D. W. Hargreaves:We say, this kid loves a deep dive. We mean, if you start a conversation with my guy, prepare to hear about the preferred cuisines of literally every world capital. Not familiar with pastiqui? You will be soon. We say, he's so spirited. We mean, he's a biter. Back off if you're attached to your fingers. We say, she is a unique student. We mean, I get a lot of calls from the principal's office. Like a lot. We're on a first name basis.

32:22Heidi Rosenberg:We say, yeah, she is doing sports.

32:25Annie D. W. Hargreaves:We mean, yeah, that's her standing in the outfield dressed as Darth Vader and completely ignoring the ball, the coach, and all the other players. We say, we wouldn't change a thing about them. We mean, we wouldn't change a thing about them.

32:41Heidi Rosenberg:This has been what we say about our quirky kids versus what we mean about our quirky kids.

32:47Annie D. W. Hargreaves:From the What Fresh Hell podcast. So my daughter was a ballerina and she was a good one. And we're in New York City. So talk about like trying not to professionalize something. Right. It's right away the Nutcracker and American Ballet Theater. And yeah, exactly. So she was 11 and she was doing ballet four times a week. and she was like, oh, I don't know, it's pretty hard. And I'm like, you're so good. And, you know, I was definitely wrapped up in her continuing, not to be a ballerina. I'd already kind of talked with the teachers about like, yeah, her point angle isn't quite right, but, you know, she's a very good dancer.

33:22Annie D. W. Hargreaves:She's not going to be a professional. I'm like, okay, phew, but let's play this out. She injured herself and then she got long COVID and game over. She was being photographed for a story that was going to be in the newspaper, unrelated completely to ballet and not doing ballet and the woman showed up and she was an award-winning photographer who was asking my daughter about her injury and she said I used to do ballet but I'm stopping I'm not going to be able to do it anymore and this photographer was like me too and she spent all this time with my kid like I hurt my knee I had been going to ballet seven days a week for 12 years I hurt my knee I couldn't go forward it was my dream what was my life going to be without ballet I was so depressed and then I found photography which I love so much more than I ever loved ballet I'm creative I realized what I really like to do is create things and now I create photographs and I travel the world and like I've loved my job and I never would have found it if I didn't hurt myself doing ballet and it was just exactly what my kid needed to hear you don't know what you love more that you haven't found yet

34:32Heidi Rosenberg:Yes, that's pretty much the answer that you've arrived at. And it can be a hard right turn. I know somebody else who was really on their way to be. I know two people who were on their way to being really professional dancers and were in accidents. And it is hard to come back like when you've put, you know, 12 hours a day. I also know kids who played sports from two and specialized and did all the things and got caught from their high school team and got caught from their college team. Like, I think it is important to paint for your children how narrow that funnel really is. And that I think one of the great things about kind of current parenting is that we are encouraging our children and leaning in with love and you can be anything you want to be.

35:19Heidi Rosenberg:but we have to remember that the downside of that is like they may not be able to be anything they want to be you know i mean i have a child who wants to be a huge arena pop star like that's probably not going to be their profession right so they're taking classes and doing lots of interesting things around it but that's probably not going to be what they're going to be when they grow up and we have perspective on that because we both were in entertainment where we both had to keep pivoting in our careers. Susan Newman, PhD in an essay for Psychology Today, talks about this and I thought it was smart.

35:55Heidi Rosenberg:Passion versus specialization. And that's kind of what you're talking about. Your passion is creativity and creating things either through dance or art or photography. Watch centering your life around your child's passion. Again, If your child is Simone Biles, maybe this doesn't apply to you, but statistically, no one who is listening to this podcast's child is Simone Biles. So take out child prodigies to push kids in one direction or another with the hope of finding the golden ticket is to deny them the opportunity to figure out what really makes them tick. To encourage kids to specialize at a young age to say this is it for you is to limit the possibilities that life has to offer.

36:40Heidi Rosenberg:And I think even more profoundly, there is an overall danger in an idea that I think that we all just have in the groundwater right now, that everyone is the most special. And that there is this kind of your baking will become your YouTube channel where you become a famous baker or your cupcakes that you make will become baked by Melissa and be this international brand that brings in billions of dollars. looking back on my own life, having had this like very love filled, but fundamentally fairly ordinary childhood. And there were aspects of my childhood, my dad had a somewhat high profile job and there were some like, quote unquote, like important people who would be around or we would know.

37:30Heidi Rosenberg:And what I realized looking back on it, there was so much importance put on like being an ordinary good person. I look back at that and I worry because I have a little bit of like, it's me, center stage. Like I would love for my kids to be like internationally famous pop stars. That would fit my ego so well, you know. But I think sometimes this pursuing of passion quickly becomes you're more special. Like you deserve this center stage spotlight in the biggest arena in the world, which we all kind of feel for our kids. But I think it's an instinct to be checked a little bit. And this idea that your job is going to be this all fulfilling passion, like there are lots of jobs that are just jobs and you're not too good for them.

38:23Annie D. W. Hargreaves:I think that one way that we can do this as individuals is in like the groups that our kids participate in to push back when they always have the good kids in fourth grade playing first and second base and the kids who aren't that good in the outfield because how will they get any better on the freshman basketball team when they're only playing the starting five whether they're up 30 or down 30 let's revisit that the freshman basketball is about teaching kids to play basketball right like the seventh grade play maybe the lead should go to the kid who's been in every place since the fourth grade standing in the background who deserves a shot not the kid who just got here two weeks ago who goes into New York three times a week for voice lessons that the point of non-professional kids having fun should be for them to learn not to present the most professional product possible to the grandmothers and aunts who are coming to the performance and I think we do lose sight of that like looking at the Jimmy Awards I'm amazed by these kids I hope I'm ever as good on stage as any of these kids are right now but also shoot do you really have to be this good as a high school student these days to be in a play because it doesn't seem that's a way to like turn it off.

39:29Annie D. W. Hargreaves:And there's lots of people who deserve to be in plays and have that experience. You know what I mean? Like the football player will never do it again.

39:34Heidi Rosenberg:You point to something that I think plays a big role in this, which is social media. That the idea of like your high school performance now goes on TikTok where people all over the country. It used to be that these pathways seemed invisible to most of us. Like the idea that you would be in a Broadway show. Right. How do you get to be Lea Michele? Who knows? Right. I guess she's special. I heard Bill Maher, who no comment, but he said at some point that people used to be like, hey, Bill Maher, I love your show. And that now like young people constantly say to him, hey, Bill Maher, I'm going to be on your show.

40:10Heidi Rosenberg:This thing of like the top is where everyone belongs, the peak of performance. And I think that's an idea that while supporting our kids passion, it's great. And we've talked about somebody saying the best thing to say after watching your kid in a sporting event is I love watching you play. It's so fun to watch you play. That's it. not you were great you were the best and my daughter picks up on this that often people say to her you were great you were so much better than the other kids and she's like I don't really want people to say that to me like everybody tried really hard and I'm like yeah right what is it in us that wants to be like you were great you were better than other people and you are going to be a huge star on Broadway someday it's like I just loved watching you in the play you looked like you were having so much fun.

41:03Heidi Rosenberg:And I think it is natural to us because of so many things in the groundwater right now that this has to lead to something. This has to be part of a bigger story and that everyone is going to live their passion. Long ago, Mitt Romney got in trouble in an election because he was doing a fundraiser at a house where the person had an 18-hole golf course in their backyard. And a reporter was sort of like, oh, don't you think it's kind of crazy that this person has an 18-hole golf course in their backyard? And he was like, my dream is for all Americans to have an 18-hole golf course in their backyard.

41:42Heidi Rosenberg:Like, this is what we should all aspire to. And it's like, that's a maniacal thing to say. Like, who's tending everyone's 18-hole golf course?

41:51Annie D. W. Hargreaves:It's not, I live on the grounds of a country club and I back up to the - No, no, no.

41:54Heidi Rosenberg:This person has their own 18-hole golf course. Yeah, we should all be so wretched to have our own 18-hole golf course. Being excited about the possibilities of life is great, but telling kids that their life is about pursuing happiness and pursuing a constant, ultimate expression of their deepest passion, a lot of kids are going to end up driving a bus or, you know, having a regular job or having a great little bake shop in their town. not everyone is going to fulfill their deepest passion 24 hours a day and achieve total happiness

42:31Annie D. W. Hargreaves:in their profession right god i was out to dinner last night with a guy who used to direct he assisted on broadway shows and he was involved and he just wasn't making enough money and he walked away and now he's a lawyer you know he did his dream and he grabbed the brass ring and it didn't pay enough for the rest of his life and he walked away like and has no regrets about that but the idea that like there's one job for you and you can't live without it. He thought that was

42:55Heidi Rosenberg:true until it wasn't. I think that parents leaning in on there's one job and it will make you happy and even over leaning in. And I have a whole section that we didn't really talk about that the ideal is total fulfillment and happiness at all times, which nobody would say out loud, but I think is kind of in the groundwater a little bit, is like you're going to be messy. You're not going to just play soccer for fun on the weekends with your friends. We have to remember to tell our kids that having a regular job and playing soccer and having a great time with your friends on the weekends is a great life.

43:38Heidi Rosenberg:That's a great life. Yeah. It might be better than being messy. I don't know. I'm not messy. It might be better. But I think the huge inherent danger of your passion is the most important thing about you and it will lead you to the greatest heights in your field is fundamentally a bad message. And by the way, I'm looking mostly at myself. I find this with my kids that like, if you like making movies in the backyard, you're going to be Steven Spielberg. Maybe you're going to be a high school media teacher who makes fun videos with friends on the weekends that some people watch. Like, there's so many steps between my kid who likes making movies and Steven Spielberg.

44:25Heidi Rosenberg:And if I tell him that Steven Spielberg is the ultimate goal, I'm just setting him up for real disappointment.

44:33Annie D. W. Hargreaves:I'm realizing that it's not for us to tell our kids, this is your passion, right? You're clearly good at this. So this is your passion. This is what you do. And this is what being a success in this way looks like is just something we probably shouldn't be doing. We can do that inside our hearts.

44:47Heidi Rosenberg:I wrote as my final note after doing all this research, explore the question, what if I had no role at all in my child's career? That is how we were all raised. My parents never tried to help me get a job. My parents kept me safe, fed me, sent me to schools, tutored me, like did a lot of work. But what if as parents we had zero zero role in our child's career, I think is a great thought experiment because that's how it's been done for thousands of years. And I think we are the first generation that's like, and I've got to find them the right this and the right job and the right internship. And I've got to introduce them to these six people I know so that they can get a maybe not.

45:38Heidi Rosenberg:Maybe it's also just like we send them off to college and then we wait and see what happens. Yes. Hard. I don't think I'm going to do it, but maybe you can.

45:50Annie D. W. Hargreaves:It's worth revisiting in some small ways for sure.

45:53Heidi Rosenberg:It's a useful thought experiment for sure.

45:56Annie D. W. Hargreaves:If you're listening to this episode on Spotify, leave us a comment. Tell us what you think about it. Share the episode, which you can do right from the Spotify app. You can do that in any app, but Spotify happens to be the only place where you can leave comments on the episodes. which is kind of fun.

46:09Heidi Rosenberg:Yes. It's so fun to read them and be like, oh, someone thought about what we were saying. We love them. Go comment on Spotify. And with that, thanks for listening. And we will talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody.

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