In short
Whether “American parenting” is uniquely bad, or whether “parenting in America” is made uniquely hard by Western/intensive parenting norms, lack of social supports, and high-stakes expectations (especially around sleep, feeding, childcare, and college).
Guests
Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson (hosts). No additional guests appear; episode includes cited authors/researchers and a friend, Janelle Hanchett, via her Substack.
Guest/Backgrounds (Janelle Hanchett)
Raised kids in the U.S. for 18 years; moved to the Netherlands ~6 years ago with husband and children. Middle/lower-middle class, paycheck-to-paycheck; limited childcare/leave in the U.S. Netherlands provides free healthcare, school funding not tied to property taxes, and paid “Papa Dog” (daddy day) for fathers.
Key claims
“Intensive parenting” (child-centered, expert-guided, labor/financially expensive) is the dominant Western model; it’s blamed on parents but is driven by resources and policy. U.S. independence ideology plus weak supports increases stress and intensifies parenting. “Chill out” is inadequate because structural pressures create adult stress that spills into kids’ stress.
Notable examples
French “le pause” (pause before responding to cries), Bringing Up Bebe stereotypes (sleep/eating/self-control), formula vs breastfeeding expectations, daycare/community effects, and U.S. lack of universal childcare/paid leave. Janelle contrasts Netherlands father participation without apology and notes higher U.S. costs (including college) and aging/special-needs care “cliffs” at 22.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMailbag Discussion
1:37 to 3:09
Hosts share listener feedback and discuss parenting milestones.
“No, you're going to feel judgy and annoyed by the end.”
Thesis on Parenting in America
3:09 to 3:56
Discussion on American parenting styles and perceptions.
“And if you're listening today, we would love to hear your thoughts on this episode, which you can tell us on Spotify or email or Instagram or Facebook group.”
Intensive Parenting Explained
3:56 to 6:05
Understanding intensive parenting and its implications.
“But when we talk about, I mean, politically, leave that on the shelf.”
Cultural Shifts in Parenting
6:05 to 8:06
Exploration of how parenting ideals have changed over time.
“And I think she might call it intensive parenting now, but kind of her point was mothers do more of this than fathers because situationally the mother is the default parent.”
Parental Well-being vs. Child Needs
8:06 to 12:08
Hosts discuss the balance between children's needs and parents' well-being.
“But some of us are stuck getting enough for our children to eat and some of us are stuck getting our children the best teachers or whatever, that we're in different places on that, but everybody's doing that.”
International Parenting Comparisons
12:08 to 13:25
Discussion on how parenting styles differ in other countries.
“It's more important than whether or not the baby is exclusively breastfed.”
Discussing 'Bringing Up Bebe'
17:34 to 19:46
Examine the cultural differences in parenting styles through a popular book.
“So we are fed a steady diet in bestselling books of here's how everybody's doing it better than you, American parent.”
The Importance of 'Le Pause' in Parenting
19:54 to 22:18
Understand the concept of 'le pause' and its implications for parenting.
“We were just talking before we got on the podcast about something that's going on with one of my kids.”
Exploring Capitalism's Influence on Parenting
22:20 to 24:20
Discuss how capitalism shapes parenting choices and societal expectations.
“And they're also not you're not all over them.”
Comparing Past and Present Parenting
24:21 to 27:54
Reflect on the changes in expectations and pressures on modern parents.
“And now there's outfits for the elf on the shelf.”
Show all 17 chapters
Understanding American Parenting
28:00 to 30:20
Explore the unique intensity of parenting in America compared to other countries.
“Let's move into American parenting itself, because that is, I think, part of the unique.”
Janelle Hanchett's Experience in the Netherlands
30:21 to 32:55
Learn about Janelle Hanchett's transition to parenting in the Netherlands and her insights.
“She raised her kids in the United States for 18 years and then she moved to the Netherlands.”
Cultural Expectations and Parenting Challenges
34:18 to 42:00
Discussion on the stress of parenting in relation to societal expectations and individualism.
“Others do it better because they are culturally superior.”
The Isolation of Individualism
42:00 to 42:56
Explore the challenges of American individualism and its impact on parenting.
“And I think that there's a great drama and reality and excitement about the idea of like American exceptionalism.”
Finding Community in Parenting
42:56 to 45:04
Discussing the importance of community support for parents facing challenges.
“God, look how they're doing it over there.”
Understanding Parenting Stress
45:04 to 45:54
Acknowledging the unique stressors of parenting in America and ways to cope.
“And one resource that we do have is online, social media and the internet to say, okay, where are the 20 families in my community who are dealing with a child who's aging out of special need care as a 22 year old?”
Encouragement and Resources for Parents
45:54 to 47:18
Offering practical steps and community resources for stressed parents.
“I want to say that what I've learned working on this episode is that parents in America are stressed because parenting in America is stressful.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Amy, let me tell you about a magical place that is so exactly designed to be enclosed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name. Let's say it together on three. One, two, three. Great Wolf Lodge. You got it, Amy. My kids loved Great Wolf Lodge when we went. You probably already know that it has a huge indoor water park with a wave pool, Lazy River, a bunch of massive water slides. But then your pack can hit the other attractions because, wait, there's more. Great Wolf Lodge has adventure-packed attractions like MagiQuest, a live-action game kids can play throughout the lodge, plus the Northern Lights Arcade.
0:44Spent some quality time there, so your kid who loves the Lazy River and your kid who loves fantasy games will both have a great time. Great Wolf Lodge also offers great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties. All under one roof. Unpack the car once and you're settled in to have fun. And with 22 lodges across the country, you're always a short drive away from adventure. We've both had such great times at Great Wolf Lodge. So bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. What's a Dorito? What Fresh Hell Laughing in the face of motherhood Just do it righter, like me, and be less of a loser, like you With Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson Have on a bottle every once in a while A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas So you don't have to You're an idiot for having a desk goose and for not having a desk goose You cannot win
1:47hello everyone and welcome to what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood this is margaret and this is amy today we're talking about american parenting versus parenting in america amy are you going to tell me that french mothers get their kids to eat snails yes oh okay i'm already in a bad mood but there's a reason for that i come prepared i'm girded for battle today Am I going to feel judged and annoyed by the end? No, you're going to feel judgy and annoyed by the end. I love feeling. Feeling judgy is so much better than feeling judged. That's right. Let's start with a great mailbag. Love it.
2:23Oh, yes. Wait a minute. Time for mailbag. Wait. Wait. Yeah. Yeah. Check the mailbag. Sarah responded on Spotify, where you can leave us comments in any episode. She left us a comment on our little-known Parenting Milestones episode recently saying, No one told me the sheer joy of my overactive, blattered son leaving the co-family bed and getting a bed of his own. Sarah says, now I can sleep in fresh, brand new sheets that have never touched a puddle of pee and I can spread my arms out wherever they need to go. His independence is my freedom. To the simple joys, really. It's the simple joys. That's a milestone.
3:01God bless, Sarah. Love it for you. Speaking of the land of independence and freedom, not everybody who listens to this podcast is American. and we really have listeners from all over the world. And if you're listening today, we would love to hear your thoughts on this episode, which you can tell us on Spotify or email or Instagram or Facebook group. There's many ways to get in touch with us. Carrier pigeon, however you need to contact with us. But here's my sort of thesis for you today. I come with a thesis that American parenting, the way that Americans tend to parent is seen as a problem by a lot of people.
3:35Agree. Particularly permissive, particularly annoying kids, whatever. Parenting in America is also a problem. We have it harder than parents in other countries for reasons which we will go into. Yeah. And I mean, I think not even talking about politics, America is seen as a problem, period. Facts. But when we talk about, I mean, politically, leave that on the shelf. But even like Americans eat, you know, 86 ,000 calories a day. Americans are lazy. Americans are stressed. Americans are at once like overindulgent and completely uninvolved. There's just a lot of stereotypes out there. When I was in high school, our neighbor was from France and she set up an exchange between some people from her hometown and my sister and I.
4:25We went over for the summer and then we had a French girl come live with us for the summer. Somebody was talking about how uptight Americans are. And they were saying that in America, the women wear pantyhose because you're not allowed to see their legs. And I was like, um, that's not a thing. But I just remember this person with very sure certainty saying, you know, Americans, the women wear pantyhose everywhere because they're so uptight about showing their legs. And like Europeans are so free, they walk around with their legs showing. When you're outside of the culture hearing your culture reflected back, it's like, I kind of know where you're getting that from, but you're reading it a little bit wrong.
5:05So what I'm trying to argue today is that the American style of parenting, which is seen as problematic. Yes. And the problematic facts of parenting as an American are, in fact, not two different things, but they're kind of the same thing. Oh, all right. Lay it on me. I'm interested in that. It's chicken and egg. So we're going to get to that today. So, OK, so to get into all the reasons we're the worst parents and they can be completely contradictory. We're too permissive and we're too hovering. Right. check. We let our kids run wild and we're all over them. We're way too uptight and we're way too lax.
5:38Yes. We don't provide for our kids what we need and we give them way too much. You know, it's wrong. It's all wrong. That's really funny. It's really true. I hadn't thought of it exactly that way. All the bad things. And it kind of comes down to this style of parenting, which is not usually called American parenting. It's called intensive parenting. Right. Right. Which comes from, there's a book called The Cultural Contradictions of Motherhood, Sharon Hayes, 1990s. She called it intensive mothering in her book 30 years ago. And I think she might call it intensive parenting now, but kind of her point was mothers do more of this than fathers because situationally the mother is the default parent.
6:13Yeah. I mean, I think on the podcast, we take as facts and evidence that when blame is being placed on parenting, that spear is focused directly at moms generally. For sure. So she called intensive parenting slash intensive mothering. She said it was a child centered, expert guided, emotionally absorbing, labor intensive and financially expensive approach to child rearing that requires an immense investment of time and money. And she identified this as particularly a mother thing. And she also identified this as particularly a Western thing. Yeah. And I wonder how much Western in this case stands in for rich, that in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs model that defines food and shelter at the bottom and other needs, lesser needs as you get higher, that Western parenting is well resourced to the degree that we now spend a lot of time worrying about minutia at the top of the triangle.
7:17goal. And I think there's some truth to that. Sure, sure. If you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you're not worried about what college they're going to. You can't. You can't worry about the next thing. You can't achieve the next level of self-actualization until you have clean air and a place to live and food. Then you start worrying about, then you worry about their shoes, then you worry about their soccer team, then you worry about where they're going to college or something. Beyond college, even, you're worried about like their emotional inner life, their emotional health, that only comes in when you have all of the lower things on the hierarchy of needs met.
7:52That's right. And I think like to put a non-judgmental spin on this, we all want what's better. We all want to be self-actualized and achieve what's better. It's just that some of us are starting from a higher place. We all want what's best for our children. Yes. But some of us are stuck getting enough for our children to eat and some of us are stuck getting our children the best teachers or whatever, that we're in different places on that, but everybody's doing that. We're further along. Yeah. So anyway, there was a study in 2019, Patrick Ishizuka, who was a sociologist at Washington University.
8:22He wrote a paper about social class, gender, and contemporary parenting standards in the United States. I'll say what he said from the intro. As parenting norms increasingly prioritize child-centeredness and intensive parenting, contemporary standards for parental investment in children in the United States has risen significantly. Most parents say a child-centered, time-intensive approach to parenting is the best way to raise kids. And what he circled in his study is that this has become the dominant model in America for how parents across the socioeconomic spectrum feel children should be raised regardless of whether or not the parent has the resources to do that.
9:03So in other words, you could be struggling in a different level of the hierarchy of needs, but you still think that good parents do do this intensive style of parenting, that that is good parenting. A hundred years ago, now I should probably say 150 years ago, the model was, certainly in my Irish family, have as many kids as possible so that you have lots of spare kids because there was lots of danger and disease and things, and they could help you work on the farm and raise the other children, that the model was children's role is to serve their parents and their parents' survival, basically.
9:44And that as we met the hierarchy of needs, that model has completely flipped and it has become parents were put on earth to serve their children's needs. And that is just a huge model shift in every single way for the good and for the bad, I think. And I think it's a Western thing. It's weird parenting. I was trying to find that acronym before we started. It's Western, educated, individualistic, rich, something like that. It's weird parenting. And of course, we think of it as just regular parenting, but it's our unique lens. But even within that, like this is a Western thing, but American is its own brand of this.
10:21There was a study 2015. They asked people in five European countries, France, Germany, Sweden, United Kingdom and the Netherlands, is the primacy of children's well-being more important than that of the parents? In France, 70 percent of people said, yes, the primacy of children's well-being is more important than that of the parents. And so the result of the study was like France is the most child centered country in Europe. And to me, the takeaway is like, wow, the winner of that contest, it was only 70 percent of people said children's well-being is more important than parents' well-being, because I feel like that would be like 98.9 percent in the United States.
10:58Yeah. How would you answer that question? I think I would. I would unthinkingly be like, yes, I have to have sleepless nights so that my children might have ballet lessons. That's really interesting. Yeah, I think I would say, yeah, the same. But then I go back to my pediatrician's advice. It's 50-50, like 50 % what the child needs, 50 % what the mom needs. And I tried to approach sleep training and how I made decisions as we both have to survive this and it can't be all the child's needs. That's interesting because really the correct answer to this question would be that is an unfair question.
11:30Like whose well-being is more important or all of our well-being is important. Yeah. It's not binary. It isn't like either the kids are good or you're good and it's a sliding scale and it's 60-40. That's kind of a wrong way to think of it. But I think we do think of it that way. And we act that way. I mean, I really needed to hear that to be given permission, like on simple things to give my kids formula at night so that they would sleep through the night. Because I mean, I feel like I'm a person who needs sleep is a crazy thing to say. But the biggest thing I feared was not sleeping enough. And I know that I become a complete monster when I don't sleep.
12:06This pediatrician was like, you should prioritize your own sleep. It's more important than whether or not the baby is exclusively breastfed. And that was really useful information and a useful framing for me. I think the pendulum has swung more to that, right? But when I had my first baby 20 years ago, it was definitely don't ever use a pacifier or I don't know what the floral opening and you don't just fall through it because you'll have failed. No bottles ever. Never, never, never. Feed on demand constantly. It was maybe the sort of end of that. But yeah, I bought into that. And boy, oh boy, it certainly did not help my well-being.
12:43And I would argue it doesn't really help the baby's well-being either. When the primary parent gets into this sleep-deprived state where you're sleeping for half an hour at a time, it's not sustainable. It's not good for you. No. And I will say, and I'll make a distinction, the pediatrician that I'm talking about was my sister-in-law's mother who was a pediatrician. She was not taking care of me and my baby. And I think that helped that she was able to have the perspective both as a mom and a pediatrician and everything. And she was able to say, whatever you hear, if you're not taking care of yourself primarily, you're going to have big problems.
13:19Yeah. Very useful advice. I was glad I got it. The universe sent you a teacher with that one, right? Indeed. Well, all right, let's take a break. When we come back, I want to talk about how parents do it in other countries because breastfeeding, formula feeding is the perfect example of how American parents are the worst and everybody does it better than us. Love it. Amy, let me tell you about a magical place. that is so exactly designed to be in closed space, year-round fun for the whole family, that I bet you already know what I'm going to say before I even say the name. Let's say it together on three.
13:54One, two, three. Great Wolf Lodge. You got it, Amy. My kids loved Great Wolf Lodge when we went. You probably already know that it has a huge indoor water park with a wave pool, lazy river, a bunch of massive water slides. But then your pack can hit the other attractions because wait, there's more. Great Wolf Lodge has adventure packed attractions like Magi Quest, a live action game kids can play throughout the lodge. Plus the Northern Lights Arcade spent some quality time there. So your kid who loves the lazy river and your kid who loves fantasy games will both have a great time. Great Wolf Lodge also offers great dining options and complimentary daily events like nightly dance parties.
14:34all under one roof. Unpack the car once and you're settled in to have fun. And with 22 lodges across the country, you're always a short drive away from adventure. We've both had such great times at Great Wolf Lodge, so bring your pack together at a lodge near you. Learn more at greatwolf.com and strengthen the pack. Experts are saying summer travel is going to be more expensive this year, and summer vacation is already one of the biggest expenses of the year for a lot of families. Not knowing if you can afford it will make it even more stressful. Amy, you're talking exactly about me. That's why tracking your finances is so important.
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17:08If you've been thinking about swim lessons or just wondering where to start, this is a great opportunity. Right now, Goldfish Swim School is offering a waived membership plus your child's first lesson free at participating locations. Just visit goldfishswimschool.com slash free and find a location near you and enroll using the promo code free. That's goldfishswimschool.com slash free promo code free. So we are fed a steady diet in bestselling books of here's how everybody's doing it better than you, American parent. I'm looking at the notes and you're about to bring up my, it's like my bête noire, my, the book that makes me angriest.
17:48And I will say in total fairness to the author, I never read this book. I just heard a lot about this book. Right. This is sort of the primary example, although there have been others. In 2012, Pamela Druckerman, an American woman who was an expat over in France, raising kids for a while, wrote a book called Bringing Up Bebe. Say it like Catherine O 'Hara from Schitt's Creek. Bebe. Bebe. Bebe. in which you are a huge bestseller, runaway bestseller. If your kids were too young and you didn't read this, you've definitely had this seep in through the groundwater that French parents raise children who sleep through the night, who eat everything on their plate.
18:25They display self-control at all times, and their parents maintain balanced lives. And you should just do it like French people do and stop being such a loser all the time. In 2012, that was what everybody was talking about. I'm also noticing that that book came out in 2012. So it was a very hot topic. when we started the podcast, which is why I spent so much time railing about it. Right. Like this was kind of like, there's a lady in France who's doing this all much better than you and having great outcomes and you're a dummy. And really, when you kind of scratched the surface, I did not read the book, but in preparation for this episode, I went through some of the ideas and sort of like one of the underlying ideas was that French parents do something called le pause, le pause, le pause, which is when your baby cries, you don't immediately go down the hall, you practice le pause.
19:15And that doing that early and often will make you have a baby who doesn't bother you all the time. First of all, like we all knew about le pause, like that's not so groundbreaking, right? Like probably the pediatrician is going to tell you don't respond to your babies every and and if that was enough to work, then we'd all be all set. Yeah, I think isn't a big idea. It makes a lot of sense that your instincts are telling you that your baby's every cry is your call to solve the problem. And it is interesting to me that this idea of taking a pause before rushing in to save is something that we've talked about a lot at all ages and stages.
19:57Your instinct, and I still have it. We were just talking before we got on the podcast about something that's going on with one of my kids. And my instinct is rush in, text everyone involved, explain the circumstances. I am the solution to this teenager's problems. And I was just saying how difficult it is for me in this situation to take LaPaz, Amy, and to say, this is a teenager who is going to have to figure this out for themselves because I don't want my kid to be in pain. Right. The anxiety about like each moment is so important. But there's two things at work here, I think. The first is that in French society in 2012 and now, they really, compared to the United States, de-emphasize breastfeeding and encourage formula feeding, which anybody who's been through this knows.
20:50I did breastfeed all three of my kids, and I loved it, and I do recommend it. However, it is a lot harder for you to get the sleep and the rest and the breaks that you need when you are the only person who can feed the baby 24 hours a day. And I did it. And that's a challenge. And by the time of my third baby, I was like, wait a minute, this is nuts. And we introduced the bottle. And my third baby went back and forth, no problem. And I wished that I had done that with my first two kids, instead of falling for the lie, but that would not be possible, that I'd ruin everything. I bite my tongue. But when I see exhausted parents who are losing their minds with lack of sleep, I'm like, how about a bottle every once in a while?
21:28And the average French pediatrician, that is the expectation. And that was not the expectation I got in the hospital. They also have expectation like American kids are so fat because you feed them all this junk food. French kids don't eat junk food. Well, nobody in France eats junk food. There's set meal times. You're not buying chips at the corner. They just don't do that. And so it's very easy to not have your kid participate in a thing that isn't a thing. Yeah. And it's the tip of the spear that is American society pointed at you and your bad choices. Not fair. Right. Not good. Not fair. And the third thing is that in France, government assists with the cost of daycare.
22:04So most kids, by the time they're two, are in some form of daycare. So if they're sitting nicely with a napkin on their lap and using a fork, they probably learn that at daycare. Right. Being with other kids. When your kid is in a daycare communal environment, I think in an extremely healthy way, they learn from their peers, Right. And they're also not you're not all over them. When I took my kid to nursery school, play dates, basically like auditions for nursery school, which you have to do in New York. And I'm not making up how stressful that is. It was stressful. They put down little like paper cups of water like you get at the dentist in front of them.
22:39My almost three year old, two and a half year old. He had never drunk out of a cup before, let alone a like soggy paper cup that's falling apart. Right. And I was like, oh, no. But that honestly came from, I think if he had been in a group setting with group kids, he would have been drinking out of cups. But because he was my precious only one, he had a sippy cup all the time. But also because American capitalism is geared towards inventing things that make life easier. It's capital all along, baby. You're so right. You had 86 varieties of cups that made it easier for a child to drink. Another thing that the same pediatrician told me is the baby gloves.
23:22I had those little baby gloves on that stopped them from scratching their faces. And she's like, take the gloves off. Babies are supposed to scratch their faces. They're supposed to feel things with their fingers. That's how they learn, you know, but that's just an item that someone came up with to say, oh, poor babies scratch their faces. I'm going to invent mittens to stop them from doing that. and I saw all my friends' babies with the mittens. So I thought mittens were part of what a baby has. I'm not going to get into a debate about whether mittens are good or bad. I don't know that much about it, but it's capitalism is driving all of the things you quote unquote need for your baby.
24:00That's right. You need the snoo, you need the bomba seat, you need that. And some of these things are great. Like the bomba seat was great and made my life much easier, but now you need the new kind of bomba seat. Right, the snoochi cup helps them drink easily, which is easier than having them spill cups all over your countertop every time they want something to drink. But you're right. It reminds me of like the elf on the shelf. And now there's outfits for the elf on the shelf. And now there's like kits for the other shelf. Like it just piles, pile. There's layers of civilization that were all under our stuff.
24:30You're right. Somebody who we both knew had a decorative goose outside their house. It was like a brand new thing. And you would dress the goose for the season, right? Now I just saw that they're making like little desktop gooses that you dress for the season on your desktop. And I was like, God bless capitalism. We don't need a goose that we dress in different outfits. I mean, if that's whimsical to you, great. But we definitely don't need individualized tiny ducks that need their own tiny outfits on our desks. Capitalism just drives us to very odd choices that start to feel like, I don't have a Valentine's Day outfit for my desk goose.
25:07What are we doing? Right. And then on top of it, while you're buying that, also buy a book about how you're such a loser because, you know, German mothers send their kids out to play and don't even look out the window. Right. Like, hey, idiot, your desk goose is still dressed for Valentine's Day and it's after Easter. You just you stink. You're an idiot for having a desk goose and for not having a desk goose. You cannot win. And you're definitely an idiot for not having it appropriately dressed for the season. So there were other books in this genre. French Women Don't Get Fat was a non-parenting book totally judging you for looking like you do and why aren't you skinny like the French mother who just had a baby and she didn't let herself go I'm putting that in annoyed quote marks and Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother which is about Asian parents but it's really about Asian American parents because she is American raising her kids here and like made her kids practice the piano three hours a day and didn't let them have fun or be in the school play or whatever and like this is the right way to do it just do it writer like me and be less of a loser like you.
26:04It's like popular from Wicked in a parenting book over and over again. Exactly. Every parenting book is the song popular from Wicked. Yeah, I'm doing it right and you're doing it wrong. So I wanted to read this New York Times commenter wrote on a piece about intensive parenting and how everybody should just, American parents are too intense and everybody should just chill out about intense parenting. This commenter said, if college admissions and financing were not a total Hunger Games hellscape in which being rich has extreme advantages at every term, the middle class parents would chill out.
Read the full transcript
26:35I promise. And then she says, don't at me with trade schools. Our local technical school doesn't even have enough spots for all the kids who are eager to be there. And we should fix that, too. But I just really like this point. Like it is hard and stressful. And don't come at me for being stressed about it as the problem. Right. It's like lack of social services, lack of money, plus expectations that are, it should be easy, stop whining, and also deliver impeccable results. I was just recently having dinner and talking about this town where we grew up going in the summers. My grandparents had an apartment in the Bronx, and they had a house on the shore in Connecticut, right on the water.
27:18And what did they do for a living. They were both schoolteachers. And I was like, yeah, this was a world in which two schoolteachers had an apartment. And I mean, believe me, when I say a shore house, don't picture the Hamptons, you know, million dollar listing. We're talking about a tiny ramshackle that smelled like seaweed. But it was beautiful and it was fun. It was like it was a great life. And they could afford two teacher salaries. And then college wasn't as competitive. So their kids went to college and they could pay for it. I mean, this system is so wild and the expectations are exactly the same.
27:54It's well said. Like the Homer Simpson America, right, where you could live in Springfield on a factory job. And it was really true. Let's move into American parenting itself, because that is, I think, part of the unique. So intensive parenting. Yes, it exists. I think it exists for reasons. And then it's also spoon fed to us and blah, blah, blah. But I also think parenting in America is particularly intense. And I want to talk about that because I think we don't talk about it enough as a society. So Kristen Swimth, she's a history professor at Fordham, and she underlines this. In other countries, there are often universal family policies like paid leave or child care subsidies like we were just talking about for France.
28:32We'll talk about some more countries that have supports, but the U.S. doesn't have those. And she argues that it was during the women's movement of the 1970s, there was this moment, this idea like, should the government help parents work and care for their families? Is there a role for government in this? But then the Reagan era ushered in this idea that government shouldn't interfere in family life. You don't want big government. You don't want somebody telling you what to do. And it was like the old fashioned conservatism of stay out of my life, government. And, you know, they were able to slash services as part of that policy.
29:08But it was sold to us this sort of independence. You don't need all that stuff. And so there was a moment where we could have gone that route. Other countries did. And we went another path. Yeah. And having a lot of family in Texas, their whole identity is very much like we do for ourselves and nobody helps us. And that is a really important part of the way they see their existence. But it's also a problem living in a country as huge as the United States that like it's hard to find policies that fit rural Texas and Times Square at the same time. Like, it's just a very big challenge, you know. It's a good point.
29:48And thinking as you're saying this about they identify as that. Well, that's American, right? To be American is to be independent. To be American is to take care of yourself. Independence is the core of our identity. Some people's experience of the government is showing up out of nowhere and like ruining their independence in the way they've been doing things for generations, which fair. I get it. It's been driven into us that, yeah, we are independent. That is who we are. It is the waterways women. But then we're creating this culture where it's pretty hard to do it by yourself and you're doing it by yourself anyway.
30:20Right. When we come back, we're going to talk about a friend of ours named Janelle Hanchett. She raised her kids in the United States for 18 years and then she moved to the Netherlands. She recently wrote a substack about this. She has thoughts. insurance isn't one size fits all that's why customers have enjoyed progressives name your price tool for years now with the name your price tool you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget so whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family they make it easy to see your options visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.
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31:38And now your guide to lesser known parenting styles. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. Sure, you've heard of helicopter moms, tiger moms, and attachment parents. But do you know about these lesser known parenting styles? Meerkat parent. Pops head out every once in a while to check on kids and environment before popping right back down into Heidi Hole, where Bridgerton Season 2 is on. Wet cap parent. Permanently near red on the grouchy scale, approach this parent with care, if at all. If there is hissing, retreat. Five-star general parent. We're going to need shoes lined up by the door at 0800 sharp, people.
32:18And those beds better be made with hospital corners. Now, everyone, forward march to the minivan. Orangutan parent. Loving, cuddly, playful, but not above dragging you out by the feet when it's time to go. Octopus parent Able to somehow cook dinner while soothing the baby and talking on the phone to make arrangements for this summer's ballet camp. And someone needs a permission slip signed? No problem. The octopus parent has it covered. This has been Lesser Gnome Parenting Styles. From the What Fresh Hell podcast.
32:55okay tell me about chanel hanchett and her experience so she's a friend of the show she has a sub stack which we'll link to in the show notes we've had her on the show and yeah she moved to the netherlands about six years ago with her husband and children they lived a i think she would say middle class to lower middle class existence in the united states kind of struggling you know paycheck to paycheck for kids right for kids she was sort of in the gig economy as a writer and her husband is a laborer they didn't have paid child care leave anything like that so now they've gone to the netherlands so she wrote a substack recently that was called they aren't better parents because they're culturally superior which gave me the idea for this episode so um here were some receipts for janelle she says having raised kids for 18 years in the u.s in the past six years in the Netherlands, I feel qualified to assert that discussing a problematic culture of parenting in the USA is a frivolous, misleading, and irrelevant focus that does nothing but deflect from the real problem, which is that America hates people.
34:00Okay, big swing, big swing. As much as we may in the US give lip service to universal health care, parental leave, and child care subsidies, just below these assertions is the implication that if American parents simply tried harder. They wouldn't be so stressed and they would parent better. The narrative bombards American parents relentlessly. Others do it better because they are culturally superior. That's not right. We know that. Yeah. So she lives in the Netherlands and she says without experiencing it, you can't imagine how different it is here. Children's health care is covered for free.
34:34Schools are not funded by local property taxes. So all schools are kind of the same good. There's a universal pension. They have something in the Netherlands called Papa Dog, which is Daddy Day, which allows fathers to take a half or full day off of work every week, paid at 70 % of their usual salary to spend taking care of their kids. And so it leads to a culture where she says like her husband doesn't have to say like, I'm really sorry. I got to take my kid to the dentist. Like there's no apology. It is what one does. Fathers parent, fathers participate in the care of their children. It is the expectation.
35:13It is the culture. Like I was saying before, you don't have to teach your kids not to snack because no, what's a snack? You know, they don't, it's not a thing. What's a Dorito? Right. What's a Dorito? And in the Netherlands, you don't have to be like, I'm really sorry. I I'm taking this afternoon off to parent my children. Of course you are. The idea I would point out in the U.S. is you should make enough money that this becomes possible for you. It's a really different model. And we know that most people don't make enough money, right? Like if, well, once you're the boss of the company, you can take a day off every week if you want to spend time with your kids.
35:50Right. But also there's no expectation you'll do that. So why would you? There's also a, um, every three months you get a check, like as a parent that amounts to about$5 ,000 US dollars every year. It's my understanding. It's not per kid. It's just like, are you a parent or are you not? And you have$5 ,000. Now, on top of this, Janelle talks about on top of this, she pays about 30 % of their income in taxes because, you know, the response is like, yeah, but I don't want to pay your tax bill. She's like, no, we do. We have higher taxes. We paid about 20 % in the US. We pay about 30 % in the Netherlands.
36:26But I can't tell you how much better our lives are because we never have to worry about any of this stuff. Like it's hard to explain just how much better it is. Again, that you could, I guess, use all this and fall back into like, right, because it sucks here because we all like, don't do it like us. But now I'm really stuck because I do it better like you. Now I really can't because I don't have universal child care. But I think the first thing to get out from underneath is that it's like, it's you, right? That if you just did it better, then you wouldn't be so bad at it. this isn't an individual problem right so you know just to reiterate the netherlands details they have free health care including dental grandparents she points this out because there's second level benefits to all this if grandparents don't have to keep working well into their 60s and 70s then they're around to take care of the kids right which is becoming sort of an issue in the united states no nobody should assume that their parents want to take care of their kids and they don't, but it's becoming an issue now that they kind of can't sometimes because they have to do their own work.
37:27In America, we have this issue of you can't, how many moms have you talked to who are like, I can't afford to work and I can't afford not to work? Yep, exactly. What we're going to be paying the nanny or the daycare or whatever, I might as well stay home. Stay home. And it's a tough situation to be in and you're balancing your well-being against your kids' well-being, but it's really just your kids' well-being, right? Like your well-being doesn't enter the chat because if you were called to be a teacher in the classroom every day, but you're not doing it because, well, what's the point? You're making decisions that are not based on.
38:01You're getting lower on the hierarchy of needs. In other words, your self-actualization has gone out the window. And I think generationally you're getting lower too. Like my grandparents, two school teachers had an apartment and a shore house and sent three kids to college. my husband and I both have jobs and we have no idea how we're going to pay for our kids college like it's gotten three times as expensive to go to college from when I was in college which was a long time ago I admit but it wasn't a hundred years ago I mean it's just the costs keep going up and I think when you add college in it's just the balance feels really really challenging That's right.
38:44I mean, what else has tripled in cost? Cars aren't three times more expensive than they were 30 years ago. Yeah. And I will speak when you have a kid with special needs, they can stay in a high school related program until they're 22 years old. So rather than college, they usually stay in a supported services branch of their high school until they turn 22. And then cliff. There's nothing else out there. Nothing. And so if you cannot come up with a vast sum of money to pay for full-time care, you are hosed. I mean, they're really, and it's one of those issues, if it doesn't affect you, you don't know about it.
39:23I'm dealing with it right now in my own life with an elder care situation that I'm like, gee, I wonder where I'm going to come up with a half a million dollars to get a down payment to put a person into elder care. or it's just the individualism, which sometimes the rugged individualism is like, let me live my life and fish in my creek. But the rugged individualism of, do I have to give out my whole life to do full-time elder care for a relative is the very dark downside of that independence. And so no wonder we're stressed. Yeah. So this is Kate Julian. She wrote an article in 2020. I'll link to it in the show notes.
40:05And she's arguing that the crisis of parenting today, and she was writing for The Atlantic about the United States, is that we have this cycle in which there is more adult stress over how am I going to pay for college, my mom's health care, my kids' health care. That leads to more kids' stress, which leads to more adult stress. But we're not inventing it because our kid didn't get the part we wanted in the school play. Like, of course, those people exist who, like, make a big deal of nothing. I'm not saying that. But we're not all doing that all the time. And chill out, parents, is a ridiculous answer to this and unfair.
40:39Right. I think that societies have always solved big problems. Maybe I'm making this up, but I'm going to say it anyway. It seems to me that societies solve large problems through collectivism and that our American independent streak of pull yourself up by your bootstraps, do it all by yourself. OK, Jeff Bezos, I don't know if he came from nothing, but he did it right. Every once in a while, somebody wins the lottery. And so then it's like, well, this is available to everybody, but everybody can't be Jeff Bezos. The end of the story is predicated on a few people making it all the way and a lot of people getting stuck.
41:19The ice flow is getting smaller. Like, hey, I should my kid have majored in history. Like, what's the job going to be? The ice flows are getting smaller. And it's not our imagination. Janelle argues that in a country like the Netherlands, she says, I noticed the way parents here aren't so worried about their kid being the best in the world at everything because they know if their kid doesn't go to college, he'll still do all right as a skilled laborer. That life is possible, that you can ironically get higher on the hierarchy of needs and think about what it is you want to do with your life and choose the thing that pleases you instead of the thing that will make the most money or the thing that will be the least inconvenient to your need to pick up your kid by four.
41:58You know, you can make decisions that are driven by happiness. Doesn't that sound nice? Yeah. And I think that there's a great drama and reality and excitement about the idea of like American exceptionalism. This is a place where any individual can literally become anything. But the problem is any one person can become anything, but everybody can't. for those of us who are stuck in the other 95 % of people who did not reach the top of the ladder somehow, this rugged individualism ends up being really isolating and causing a tremendous amount of stress and problems. So what do you do about it? Janelle said, I thought this was so wise, she said, we can't read the label if we're inside the jar.
42:50And I think that that's the first thing is like, okay, we're inside this jar. And it's easy for people in France to be like, God, look how they're doing it over there. It's so ridiculous, right? They're looking at the label, we're inside it. And I don't think we accept this like, oh, we're so annoying and our kids are so annoying. But we can accept that we're in a jar of exceptionally stressful circumstances that force individualism and hawking your future and all kinds of things that don't exist in a lot of other countries. and that's the jar we're in. We can't necessarily fix it, but this is water.
43:25I was just going to say, this is water. The fish says, how's the water? And the other fish says, what's water? If you don't know what you're swimming in, I think that finding community and realizing that one of the things that is getting so much in our way is lack of community and that I don't think in 2026 that is coming for us anytime super soon. There's huge political debates going on about 100 % individualism versus like 100 % socialism feels like where we are at in the debate. But for our day to day, and I always say this, I don't like it to come down to like, write your senators. It's like, okay, I'll write my senators on top of dressing my goose.
44:09but is that really going to change my outcome in my life? I don't believe it is. And so I think the best that we can do is really understand the water that we're in and reach out, which I've been doing right now. I'm on a bunch of Facebook groups that are like elder care in my area. Who's doing what? How are people solving this? I know a lot of parents with special needs who the moms are getting together and forming a group home and financing it and fundraising. And I would strongly argue that that should not be the job of a mom who's also a manicurist. Like you didn't sign up to figure out how to form a group home.
44:50But the first step is community in terms of figuring out individualism may be great for certain situations, but there are problems that only community can solve and how do you tap into and find those communities? And one resource that we do have is online, social media and the internet to say, okay, where are the 20 families in my community who are dealing with a child who's aging out of special need care as a 22 year old? What are they doing? How are they doing it? I don't love the like mama warrior. Like, look, Look, you solved it, mom. Right. We always knew you would. Now we don't have to, we can continue doing nothing.
45:33Right. That's right. Because the whole like mama warrior is like, yeah, because you basically have to be. I mean, I know so many special needs moms who are like, I just wanted to be a manicurist. I didn't want to be a special needs warrior. But when you're in it, that may be that finding of community, maybe the piece that kind of helps you through it. I want to say that what I've learned working on this episode is that parents in America are stressed because parenting in America is stressful. And that is uniquely the case. And you can work on your stress levels. You can decide you're not going to overthink what your desk goose is wearing and maybe not have a desk goose at all.
46:13Maybe start there. Maybe throw out that desk goose today. Let's do it. Let's all take a vow right now. No desk geese. But it's stressful. Like the jar you're in is stressful. So don't feel bad for being stressed and then, you know, address the causes of stress. That's a way to maybe get a little bit happier today. Absolutely. And if your desk goose is finding care for an elderly relative, realize that step one needs to be, I need to talk to as many people about this as I can and figure out a solution. That's right. Which is why we love the What Fresh Health Facebook group. Absolutely. Come on over.
46:50The water's fine. Oh, my gosh. Facebook.com slash group slash What Fresh Healthcast. It's 6 ,000, 7 ,000 parents at this point. Not 6 ,000, Amy. Oh, my God. I said it. I have to make the gesture now. Okay. All right. Now we have to pause. It's the nicest place on the internet. It's parents helping one another with all kinds of things, with big problems, with little problems. And we're going to help each other out of this very stressful, unfair situation that we find ourselves in. And laughing the whole time. So come join us there on the What Fresh Hell Facebook group. And with that, we'll talk to you next time.
47:23Thanks, everybody.
47:30Thank you.
From the publisher
We're often told that the American style of parenting is inferior—that we're doing it all wrong compared to, say, a laissez-faire Parisian whose kids eat whatever is served.
But is it our too intense/ too lax/ too snack-heavy parenting style that is making us (and our kids) so stressed? Or is it where we're doing that parenting?
In this episode, we explore the forces shaping parenting in America today, and the ways in which other countries offer parents more support. From the pressure to “do it all” to the lack of community support, we examine how our American struggles may be rooted in American ideals.
There's no doubt cultural expectations can shape our parenting decisions, leading to the "intensive parenting" that's so easy for others to criticize. But there's plenty about our circumstances as American parents that makes things harder.
Our friend Janelle Hanchett (whose writing inspired this episode) was exactly right when she wrote:
"As much as we may in the US give lip-service to universal healthcare, parental leave, labor rights, and childcare subsidies as key tenets of good parenting, just below these assertions is the implication that if American parents simply tried harder, they would not be so stressed and they would parent better.
The narrative bombards American parents relentlessly: Others do it better because they are culturally superior.
They are not better people. They live in societies with better policies."
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Jannelle Hanchett on Substack: They aren't better parents because they're culturally superior
Claire Cain Miller for the NYT: Today’s Parents: ‘Exhausted, Burned Out and Perpetually Behind’
Reddit/attachmentparenting: Thoughts on “Bringing Up Bébé” book?
Kate Cray for The Atlantic: Parenting in America Keeps Getting More Intensive
Kate Juilan for The Atlantic: What Happened to American Childhood?
Joe Pinsker for The Atlantic: ‘Intensive’ Parenting Is Now the Norm in America
Patrick Ishizuka for Social Forces journal: Social Class, Gender, and Contemporary Parenting Standards in the United States: Evidence from a National Survey Experiment
Yu-Chin Her for Population Research and Policy Review: Having Fun or Having Kids? Leisure Aspirations and Attitudes Toward Parenthood in Europe
Susan Kelley for The Cornell Chronicle: Hands-on, intensive parenting is best, most parents say
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
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