Meredith Schwartz on Building a Reading Life You Actually Love

0:00Meredith Monday Schwartz:Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com. Find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Take.

0:35From what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood, this is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're talking to Meredith Monday Schwartz. She is a mom of four, a CEO of two companies, and co-host of the Currently Reading Podcast, which the New York Times named one of their seven best podcasts for bookworms. Today we're going to talk about reading and reading more and building a reading life that we love. Welcome, Meredith. Oh, I'm so glad to be here to talk to you guys. We were just talking about, before we got on, like, what kind of readers are we? And Margaret and I were saying, I think we both visualize ourselves as power readers, or at least former power readers, who now wish we read more than we do.

1:18Is that something you often hear from your listeners? Yes. In fact, most of the time people will say, I used to read a lot for whatever reason. We get into seasons of our lives where we just can't read a lot. I read a lot from the time I was really young. And then when I had the first 10 years of having all of my babies, I was barely reading at all. And I really felt like, am I ever going to get that back? But the reality is our reading lives, they're always there for us. They're waiting for us when we are ready for them to find the right fit and the right books. because sometimes when we return, we're different readers.

1:51So that was the thing I was interested when you guys both described yourself as lapsed power readers. What was the cause of the lapse? For me, the cause of the lapse was screens. So I'm reading Reddit in bed instead of reading a novel. I am a little stuck on books right now. I find that the kind of heavy literature type of book that I might have pursued at one time in my life. I'm not picking up Lincoln and the Bardo at the end of my days right now. No way. But I feel like I have read every girl on the train through the window who has an unreliable narrator memory of a murder. Read them all. And probably felt a little bit unsatisfied by those reading experiences.

2:37I wouldn't say so. I'm a big fan. I love a juicy, bite-sized book. But the thing with a mystery is the good ones kind of rise to the top. And then it's hard to find a really good. I mean, Gone Girl had its issues. But if you could basically find me a Gone Girl every day, I would read every single day. I just like kind of a fast paced thriller-ish book with a female lead. I'm there for every time. Okay. So on the Currently Reading podcast, my co-host and I talk about everything that we're currently reading, right? And spoiler free, usually about six books an episode. I read all kinds of books, but my wheelhouse is mysteries and thrillers.

3:16I grew up reading those. I was a Nancy Drew girl, and that's what I love. So, I mean, the publishing industry would love to find a gone girl every single day. We've all been looking for that since, what, 2012 when it came out. But the good news is there are lots of really, really, really good ones. And I just read one that was absolutely five stars that I think would check a lot of boxes for you. Oh, I'm so ready. I'm getting my notebook out. This book is, I think it's got a not great title, but it's got a great setup. It's called This Story Might Save Your Life. The author is a debut author and her name is Tiffany Crum, C-R-U-M.

3:54The setup is we've got podcasters. Yes. Benny and Joy are best, best, best friends who've been best friends for a long time. and their podcast just went wild, wildly popular. And so they have all this, they're dealing with all this fame, they're dealing with all this money, all these things are going on. And then one day out of the blue, Joy and her husband go missing. And Benny, for a variety of reasons, becomes a prime suspect. I'm in. It is so propulsive, but it's also smart. It's well-written at the sentence level. it's got enough twists and turns to be really really interesting but it doesn't have any dumb twist yeah that's the trick it's like if it goes wrong and the other thing i don't do at all is women in distress i don't want anybody i mean room was maybe an exception but i don't like kidnapped ladies which a lot of these books there's just like random disgusting violence that i don't want to read this book that we're talking about here does not have random disgusting violence at all.

5:00I think you'll be really, really satisfied with it. Oh, what a win. The other thing I was thinking about is there's this really big, and I think this is a great thing for the publishing industry, is in the last couple of years, we've been getting a lot more of what I would describe as accessible literary fiction. It's not a mystery or thriller. It's literary, but it's a lot more accessible than a Lincoln and the Bardo, for example. Yeah, I love the genre you're talking about. I would put like the other Bolin sister. Is that what you're talking about? Well, that is historical fiction, and that certainly is super readable too.

5:36So it fits what you're talking about there. I'm thinking about a new book that just came out called Good People by Patmina Sabit. This Middle Eastern family has come to the United States and really built themselves up to be, they're incredibly wealthy now. They're very much front and center in their community. And then a tragedy happens. We know at the beginning that something happens, but we don't know what that is. And the whole book is being told from the perspective of everybody but the family. So we're getting these breadcrumbs of what happened on, like, what is the thing that happened? So it's kind of building and building and building.

6:14It's a book that is really well written, but it has this throughline narrative that really carries you through because you're very interested. Really, really interesting literary fiction, but incredibly accessible. These two books are examples of books that are easy to get into, maybe for people who've been like, I haven't really been picking up books because I've been scrolling, and I struggle with that too. But when they hook you early, it makes it a lot easier to say, I'm going to spend at least 20 minutes reading right now. Set a timer, be like, I can go back to my scroll, but I'm going to give 20 minutes to this, and you might be surprised how you get sucked in.

6:49Let's talk a little bit about why read more, because I think if this is so universal, all of us are like, I keep scrolling on my phone. Right. Scrolling on our phone is entertaining. The problem is that there aren't good books out there to read. I've got a shelf behind me of, you know, I bought them and now all I have to do is get to them. What is it that is stopping us from turning to these wonderful books that are out there? It isn't that there aren't good books. It's that the phone is more interesting. Like, do we have to get in touch with why the reading is worthwhile? Because my phone is also very compelling and has lots of twists and turns.

7:19So why is it worthwhile to do something that feels harder? I think, right, it does feel harder. I think part of it is that there's just this kind of like honey stickiness to our phones. It's really hard. Like it's almost sometimes kind of physically hard to just be like, I don't want to be doing this right now. I'm going to like, I mean, clearly everything that they're doing is to keep our attention, right? That dopamine hit that we're getting from that. So I think that part of it is that we're really just fighting a force that is meant to be difficult for us to fight. So there's that element.

7:52Like I try to give myself some grace. It is easy to do. If I spend an evening, I'm like, oh my gosh, I just spent that entire evening scrolling. I don't really have a lot. I don't feel as satisfied with the time spent as I do when I get sucked into a really good book. And I read for entertainment, but there are also a lot of people who read to learn, who read because they want to get into other people's shoes. All of those reasons, I think, are ones that feel more fulfilling to us. We talk a lot about self-care, but there are certain kinds of self-care that feel more satisfying to our brain. And I'm not saying that everyone needs to want to read, but if you're thinking, I really, really remember when I love that feeling of being sucked into a good book, that is possible.

8:40And at Currently Reading, that's what we want to do is help people find the way to choose those books, right? To find those books to get sucked in. I never want to think about reading as a chore or a should do. I really should read more because smart people read. I don't think of it like that. I want people to find books that suck them in and give you that feeling of I just want to read under the covers for three more hours. That's the feeling I'm looking for for our audience. And I do feel like those books can be hard to find. I think part of my struggle is that I'm caught between should reads and just feeling like I don't have anything left on the delicious reads list?

9:19I think you just now hit on something really, really important, which is we need to have a delicious reads list. Yeah. Should reading looks really different, right? I'm a book podcaster, so I have kind of a running list of things that I feel like, I should read George Saunders' new novel that just came out, Vigil, right? I should read that. But then I really want to read the latest Andrea Mara because that's a delicious read. I think delicious reads should be the only reads that you're doing, honestly. Spicy opinion, I think we should just trash should reading completely because it steals the joy.

9:55We talk a lot about reader know thyself. And that is figuring out what kind of reader you are, figuring out what your deal breakers are, figuring out what your catnip is. Like if you tell me a book starts out with we're on a road and there are a bunch of abandoned cars, I have got to find out what happened. Like that's a catnip trope for me. We want to help people figure out like, what are those things that always suck you in? What are the things that ruin your reading for you? What is a format that really works for you? What is a time of day that really works for you? And then how do you manage things like your TBR or your stack of books?

10:33How do we make sure that you always have a list of deliciousness to pick from? We're talking to Meredith Schwartz. She is the host of the Currently Reading podcast, and we'll be right back. For some of us, tax season is one of the only times that we look at our finances fully. And once it's over, well, that was terrible. And it is completely understandable not to want to think about it for another whole year. But using Monarch and being intentional with your finances in an ongoing way helps you see where your money is going and how you can put your refund to best use. We are here to tell you, simplify your finances with Monarch.

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14:03This is care uniquely tailored for you. At Midi, you will find that their mission is clear to help all women thrive in midlife, giving them access to the health care they deserve because they believe midlife isn't the middle at all. It is the beginning of your second act. Ready to feel your best and write your second act script? Visit JoinMidi.com today to book your personalized insurance-covered virtual visit. That's JoinMidi.com. Midi, the care women deserve. Meredith, I'm wondering how you and your co-host feel about being a do-not-finisher of books. I I just did this. There's a book that's a Booker Prize finalist.

14:47Loved the cover. Looked good. The author uses run-on sentences. And as you were saying, I'm like, I can't get past this. That's a deal breaker for you. It was a deal breaker for me. I'm a Catholic school girl. I can't deal with run-on sentences. Just didn't like it. How do you feel about the do not finish thing? Are you a do not finisher? We are profligate do not finishers. We absolutely believe in setting aside a book when it's not working for you. Now, I'm going to put a little twist on the DNF because DNF, there's a really good place for that. There are books where I start and I'm like, this is not for me and it probably is never going to be for me.

15:19But we do something additional, which is in our end, which is we're going to not write now this book. There are a lot of books that may not be right for me in the mood I'm in sitting here on this particular day or in this year of my life or this season of my life. but I'm going to be a different reader five years from now. So the reason we want people to set books aside is not because there's something bad about the book, but because it might actually work for you at another time and you do more justice to the work, to the author. When you say, this isn't working for me right now, a little bit from now, three months, six months, three years from now, it actually could be a lifetime favorite.

16:01And I mean, there are so many people that have had that happen. Like I tried this book three different times. And then the fourth time I tried it, it became like top 10 of all time. That's for me, Life of Pi. I started it three or four different times, a hundred pages in. And then I tipped over one night and I read it until five o 'clock in the morning. And it's one of my favorite books of all time. So every other time that you set it down, it was because it wasn't right for you in that moment. Yeah. I would say anytime you look at a book or you think about a book, you're in the middle of a book, anytime that feeling comes up, set it aside.

16:35Yeah, because I'm three quarters of the way through a book right now. And I think one of the reasons I'm not reading is because I don't want to finish that book. But I feel like it's my assignment and I can't read anything else until I finish it. And absolutely no one gave you that assignment. No, no one even knows I'm reading the book, frankly. I mean, it's truly only in my own head. Exactly. So huge permission slip to set books aside if they're not working for you, whether you're three pages in or you are 90 % in. I was just talking to someone the other day who said, I haven't read a book in a year because of this one book.

17:13And so I said to her, please, please set that book down or skim the last 10 % or whatever you need to do to get past that book. Or look up the ending on Google, which I've done sometimes. Yes. Nobody is making rules that tell you that you can't do that. And she texted me back just this morning saying, I not only skimmed the last 10%, in the last three days, I've read two books. I've just, she was like corked up. Now, this makes me think of a question for both of you, because I don't know this about Amy either. Are you a one book at a time person or multiple books at the same time? I'm a one book at a time person, basically.

17:50I've got three books going right now. You're a three book. That makes sense for me. Is it like a fun book, a book for the show, and a serious book? Exactly. Right. It's a book for the show. It's a book for a book club. And then it's a book that I just wanted to read. And I have the three of them in different stages. I can't do that. Meredith, what about you? Are you a book at a time? Or you must be multiples. I do multiples and I do it. I have a book going in every format. So I always have an audio book going, a Kindle ebook going, a print book. And then I do something called my morning read. You guys might do this too.

18:24I have like a productivity book that I'm reading in the morning before I do a little bit of morning pages or morning journaling. So that kind of fills a specific slot. I just do maybe 10 minutes in it each day. But so I usually have about four books going at a time. But that's a really good reader know thyself question. Yes. Like, is it better for you to just be reading one and zipping through it? Or is it better for you to have like a lot of people will say, I have to have something going on my ebook, because that's the only thing I really want to read at night, for example. So I want to get 20 minutes in and I'm not going to pick up a print book and hold it and a book light and all of that other stuff.

19:02So that's why different formats might work too. It's true because I am not a Kindle person. Margaret loves a Kindle and could do without the print. I feel like I need the print. I need the pages because it feels like something different than my phone or my tablet. However, I get in bed at night with my spouse who's going to sleep and I guess I'll scroll my phone. I could be getting 10 pages in a night, no problem, if I was maybe the same book on my Kindle and I use it only for that time. Right. You absolutely could experiment with that. See if it actually helps you get into sleep faster. See if it keeps you up, but you're making really good progress on a book that you've wanted.

19:38I read on a Kindle Oasis and I have two of them and I have one that's in my house and I have what I call my purse Kindle. Wow. That's a good idea. Right. So it's always in my purse. And so it's really easy for me to go back and forth. You know, if I have that 10 minutes at the doctor's office, instead of being irritated about waiting because my OB is constantly late. I got an hour of reading in, but that purse Kindle comes in handy. Purse Kindle. That's a good one. Yeah. I'm all Kindle all the time. If someone gives me a book, I just get it on Kindle and I give the book away. I am so Kindle. I mean, book, I sit there like, what is this?

20:15Pages? It's so irritating. Right. I often will have the same book in print and on the Kindle. And I really love, this is like a dumb thing about me as a reader, but I love moving a bookmark forward in the physical book, even though I'm primarily reading on the Kindle. You're like the person who writes your to-do list at the end of the day, so you can scratch it all off. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's why I like a real book, right? I like to hold, I like to see my progress. Do you annotate your books? Will you mark them up? I do for the podcast. And so I've learned that I do prefer, I actually prefer a PDF.

20:50of a book that we are getting for the podcast because then I can actually meditate it on my screen. That's different. That's for work that I'm actually creating an outline of what I want to talk about from the book. If I'm reading a book that I'm trying to learn something from or present to somebody else, then I like to have a highlighter and a pen to write in the notes. I mean, I do find that very appealing and I haven't replicated it on the iPad. Oh, that's interesting. So you're like, you're the opposite. Yeah. If I'm learning, I want a paper book. You want a paper book. Yeah. That's a good thing to know about yourself.

21:22How many books, for example, a month do you guys need to read for your show? Well, we have a guest every week, so four or five, right? But we take turns preparing the work. So probably we are reading each reading two to three books a month for the podcast. Okay. And that's definitely should reading, right? You want to be doing it. You want to be reading those books, but that does fall into the category of that is something you need to take into account when you're thinking about your overall reading rhythm. You have those kind of goalposts within your month that you need to work around. I think you can get caught a little bit too.

21:53This is speaking for myself and my husband too, that like we read nonfiction, obviously for the podcast almost exclusively, and he reads nonfiction. He does a lot of should reads, a doorstop about Herbert Hoover is going to be sitting on his nightstand for the next two years. I'm trying to encourage him and then him me like let's read this fiction that fiction is worthwhile so let's talk about that that in this world of like constant news world on fire important things to understand more about like AI or Iran why is it worthwhile to get lost in a court of thorns and roses why is that worthwhile in and of itself so right a couple different questions there reading fiction versus non-fiction definitely again know yourself as a reader, some people, if you're reading to learn, then that would really affect what fiction you're choosing.

22:41So if that is you as a reader, where you're like, I just don't feel satisfied unless I'm also learning something, well, there's lots of fiction that helps you to do both. But if we're thinking about, is it okay for me to want to read A Court of Thorns and Roses when the world is on fire? This is something that I really, really understand. It's something that we hear from our listeners all the time. Should I feel guilty that I'm wanting to unplug when there's so much that I need to be paying attention to? And for me, the overwhelming answer is, please take some time to unplug, get into that deliciousness, get sucked into those other worlds.

23:20Because like I said, to return to this issue of some self-care is actually more useful for your brain than others. Of course, unplugging in a way where you are letting yourself sink into another world for a little bit is really restful for your brain. You will be refreshed in a way that you weren't before, and it gives you more energy and clarity when you do need to come back to those things that are really important for us to be paying attention to in the world. And I think it dovetails with your point about not yet books, because I have been trying to read Demon Copperhead for three years now, and I'm not getting there.

23:56I've read 100 pages of it three times. And I have a feeling she's one of my favorite authors, Poisonwood Bible. I mean, my perfect book. Incredible. But I just it's not for me right now. I got enough heavy right now. And I'm like, yeah, I get that as a not yet book. Like I want drunken lady on the train tries to solve the murder that she could barely remember. I just don't want heavy stuff happening to young people. It's not what I'm looking for right now. And when you said about self-care, that reading was a form of self-care, Meredith, that was really eye-opening to me and what you were just saying now about like, it's okay to do this to rest your brain.

24:32I would never say, I can't go to yoga. You know, there's too much going on in the world. I need yoga. I would never say, I can't sleep when there's so much to worry about, right? I must keep the watch. Right. That it's a form of self-care to put it down and enter some Victorian world of, you know, intrigue and murder. That that's great for your brain. Right. Maybe experiment with, I haven't been reading for a long time. Choose a book that sounds really, really good to you. Put it in your Kindle and decide the only time during the day that I'm going to read is when I take a bath and I'm going to, maybe I'm in the bath for 15 minutes.

25:08But the only activity I do when I take a bath is I allow myself to just be in this world right now. And then maybe the whole rest of the time you let yourself scroll your phone. But just even that habit of letting your brain and your body relax, it really is going to make you stronger and more able to deal with the realities of the world when we let ourselves turn off a little bit. Yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe that's why reading has become harder and harder for all of us is that it involves a state of concentration and relaxation that we don't feel like we are safe to have. Yeah, absolutely. And I really, really think we'd all be better for turning our attention a little bit to some things that feed us for a small amount of time.