Oops! My Kid Hates Me

19:51Amy Wilson:You kind of know it's a taboo. And what happens? Mom is this kind of monolith who I don't even barely understand theory of mine that we're different people. But what if I hated her? What if I said that out loud? It's not like they're thinking about it that deeply, but there's a weird instinct of what if I punched this person in the face, which happens, you know, like what if your toddler hits you? Right. Yeah. They do. Yeah, as they move from you're just my giant helpful teddy bear to you're somehow separate than me. And sometimes it could just be like anger outbursts. Sometimes it's that boundary testing.

20:25Amy Wilson:And sometimes it's what happens if I touch the button that says eject? What happens when I touch the hot stove? I gotta see what happens. I'm too curious. Okay, so a social worker, Natasha Daniels, suggests that the best way to counteract a little kid saying I hate you is to say, well, I love you. And they'll probably be annoyed, but don't give it a big negative reaction. That's the jack-in-the-box you're saying, right? That just sort of reinforces like, oh, this is a great card for me to play when I'm feeling mad. Don't give it a big reaction. Give it a womp-womp reaction, and it will take the air out of it.

21:00Amy Wilson:I agree with that, but I also think it's almost impossible, especially the first time you hear it. You're going to be like, you know, this child that you've nurtured and given everything to saying I hate you is it's a big red line to cross. It's very emotional. It is like using a slur or something. It is a forbidden word. And there's a reason why that gets such a strong reaction because I don't think I ever, ever said those words out loud to either one of my parents. But I very much remember telling my mother she was the wicked witch of the West and having my grandmother, her mother-in-law was in the room and was like, nothing more transgressive had ever been said.

21:41Amy Wilson:We're like, that's right. You're the wicked witch of the West. Yeah. The same impact. I know somebody and I remember their child was expressing, I want to kill that guy. And she was like, we don't say that in the house. And he would say, the child would say, I want to X that guy. But he was just he needed to express this very strong emotion. And this is also like a set point. You might have four kids and only one of them ever says I hate you to you. There are different set points of kids. There are different rule followers of kids. I definitely was a person who said I hate you to my parents. I don't think any of my other siblings ever did.

22:19Amy Wilson:And for whatever's going on, I think that if you come back with, well, I love you. So what's going on? how can we fix this? And I will say, we know about red brain, right? If a kid is in red brain saying, I hate you, I hate you. This may not be the time to be like, what's underneath that? I love you. So let's fix it. You can co-regulate, but you can't talk somebody out of red brain. I think that when they're fully in red brain and slamming doors and saying, I hate you, you just say, I'm going to talk to you when you've calmed down. Do what you need to do to express how I can see you're very, very angry and upset.

22:57Amy Wilson:And then later you can have a conversation and you could say, wow, that felt really out of control to me. I think it felt really out of control. When you say, I hate you, I don't want to live here anymore. Like that really hurts my feelings. And I bet it doesn't feel that good to say, you know, and that's also good to remember that the kid is generally not saying it because they're like, ha ha, I'm really going to get you. It's like vomiting or something. It's like something has to come out. They want to evoke in you the level of distress that they're feeling. That's right. Like, I feel horrible.

23:31And I'm going to say this to you so you can like, don't you wish sometimes when your kid says they don't feel well, if you can only switch brains for a minute so you can see what they mean? Oh, is this a strap or is this just a sore throat? Same kind of thing. They're like, step inside my head and I'm going to induce the same state of distress in you for a minute. That's, I think, what they're trying to do. And so then it isn't personal. Then it is just like, see how distressed I am? That's what they're really saying.

23:54Amy Wilson:And so I want you to feel as bad as I do. Right. And I think it's important to remember, and we've said this about other things, when they say, I hate you, it will hurt your feelings a lot because that's why they're doing it to hurt your feelings a lot. And so yes, let it hurt But don't jump on the roller coaster with them if at all possible and like if it shocks you I think that trying to avoid ever having a bad moment with your kid is a terrible goal I think that we all make mistakes I think that there have been times where a kid of mine has walked out of the room and i've flipped them off and been like Oh my god go to camp.

24:37Amy Wilson:I cannot stand your face for one more second Right. But I think the kids probably are less equipped to handle that than we are. And that if you get on the roller coaster with them, you're both going to end up or in the Trumbull dryer with them. You're both going to end up hot and disoriented. Yes. A teenager can really, they can really nurse that for a long time. If you respond to be like, well, you know, guess what? I don't like you very much either right now, mister. And like, yeah, leave you me. I'm not saying you're a bad person for feeling that, but that saying it is going to be like, all right, now you have a whole, you're gonna be paying for that for a long time because they're really going to, they can say things they don't mean.

25:20You don't get to say things you don't mean without coming back to haunt you.

25:24Amy Wilson:They're seeking the boundary. And I think that when it starts remembering that like a weighted blanket or even a straight jacket, what do you do to someone who's out of control? You kind of hold them still. You don't start spinning them and spin with them. You need to put a fire blanket on what's going on, not a can of gasoline on what's going on. And they're coming to you to be like, I feel unlovable. This is what they're saying. Therefore, I bet mom doesn't really love me. And I'm going to prove that by making my actions so unlovable and pushing her to admit that she doesn't love me. You know, my negativity bias is seeking confirmation.

26:08Amy Wilson:And so if you give that confirmation, it leads to more problems. And I think part of it is identifying when we're in red brain. Like I have had a kid who was very angry and saying really hurtful things. And it's like, okay, I'm going to wait for you to calm down. Okay. Now an hour later, we're having a conversation where that child is maybe able to verbalize. I don't even know why. I don't feel like I belong in this family. I don't even know why you want me here because, and this isn't teenagers, this is little kids, but you're able to have an actual conversation about what's going on when you're able to hold the boundary of, okay, I can see how angry you are, but I'm not going to be like you too, you idiot.

26:53Amy Wilson:No matter how much that's what you're thinking, because they're probably looking, they're testing the joists on your love. They're testing to see how unlovable can I be before they give up on me. And it makes me think when you were saying, if you can manage to get below that, I just really feel like into their angst, their upset, whatever it is, and you're underneath it. That's a great time. Like you are winning then as the parent. If they're talking to you about their upset and it's not all like you're the worst person in the world, stop talking. They are choosing instead to tell you what's really going on and rushing to the like.

27:26Well, just think about how much more you have than the children who went to bed tonight without enough to eat. Do not start to minimize or solve their global despair when they're finally talking to you about that instead of how much they hate you. You're winning, so just be quiet and let them talk. Take the W. Exactly. I have another thing to say about that.

27:44Amy Wilson:We'll be right back. Membership means more with American Express Business Gold. Earn four times membership rewards points in your top two eligible spending categories every month, including eligible U.S. advertising purchases and select media and U.S. purchases at restaurants, including takeout and delivery. What are you waiting for? Get the card that flexes with your spending every month. Terms and points cap apply. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash business dash gold. MX Business Gold Card, built for business by American Express. Hear that? That's now Crispy and McCrispy Strips meeting creamy Caesar sauce.

28:23Amy Wilson:Sounds extra crispy. Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time.

28:34And now, Things We Hate, the speed round. From the What Fresh Hell podcast.

28:40Amy Wilson:Birthday parties. Including, but not limited to, indoor play spaces, birthday parties we forget to attend, birthday parties that are way too long, and the horrible crime that is goodie bags. The word I long to hear for my whole life that I now hear 45 ,000 times a day. Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom, Mom! Winter clothing. Ugh, how is it already freezing? I don't know. The gloves are still in that box in the attic. You'll have to wear these oven mitts until I can find something else. Pushing the swing at the park. Can we put a motor on these things already? My arms are killing me. Sunscreen. Beach days used to involve, like, swimming, maybe a little volleyball if you're lucky, a cocktail.

29:22Amy Wilson:Now they involve coding angry small people in Elmer's glue every half an hour. This has been Things We Hate, the speed round from the What Fresh Hell podcast.

29:39Amy Wilson:I think especially with teenagers, but it's true with kids of all ages, that I recently took my children somewhere that I didn't even necessarily really want to go as a nice thing for them. We got there, three teens. They were pouty. They were on their phones most of the day. They were unappreciative of how much money and time had gone into putting this experience together. And I was just sniping at them all day and night. And I was so mad because I was basically like, you little ingrates. you could be there and stare at your phones the whole time and act like you were being tortured when you're in a place that costs X amount of dollars and no one else gets to have this experience that I went out of my way.

30:29Amy Wilson:And I think that trying to teach certain lessons can be very counterproductive at points. You know what I'm talking about? Like what they were displaying was in fact very typical teenage behavior. Not that it's attractive behavior, but teens being disengaged and sitting on their phones as opposed to like participating with everybody and realizing, oh wow, look at how nice this pool is and what a great opportunity to be here. That we were just coming in from very different points of view and I was not giving that any credence. I was just going straight to you degenerate in grades. I will give you a 40 minute lecture about how much you stink.

31:09But P.S. you're right the maddest my parents ever were at me my dad ever was at me when we went through this was that We went on a college visit that involved a very long drive And I was seeming and I remember going to this college and it wasn't like I hate my parents It was I thought I really liked this school. But now that I got here I kind of don't and oh no, where am I going to you know Where am I going to go to college? I thought this was it and that's not it. That was where I was My dad had this whole story like you ungrateful. Do you not even understand? and I took a day off from work and we paid for a hotel and we drove this long way and da da da da da.

31:41Right. And the truth is, no, I didn't. I didn't. That's not what you were thinking about. Right. I was a self-involved teenager that is not thinking about the money, the time, the time off from work, the driving he was doing. And I know I was thinking of none of those things because I'm a self-centered teenager. It doesn't mean that you were wrong. Right. That you were like, God, they don't even know what I put into this. No, they don't. They don't. And you're right to be frustrated by that. But I also think you're right. Like when you lecture them, it's like, what? What are you talking? No, I didn't think of this until 10 seconds ago.

32:10And your anger becomes here she goes again instead of gosh, she has a point.

32:15Amy Wilson:Yeah, I think that's right. So looking at reasons why this happens. Okay. Raising Teens Today has a story called Help, My Teenager Hates Me and It's Breaking My Heart. And I think this is not just for teenagers. This is kids of all ages and stages. I think kids under 10 will say like, I hate you in a moment of anger. but it's pretty clear they don't mean it. I think with teens, it gets problematic because it feels like they do mean it. They have a lot of agency. And it's like, first of all, they're more likely to hate you because they're more resistant to boundaries, all that. And then they have a lot of agency.

32:51Amy Wilson:It's like a real person saying it to you as opposed to a mucket. They might be bigger than you. Right. The person saying this to you might be larger than you are. Might be 6 '4". Exactly. So you are their safe zone. I get it. It annoys me. I don't really want to dwell on it. But sometimes we say we're soaking in it. You know what I mean? Like they're saving all their love for me. This is the kid who behaves really well everywhere else and comes home and is a terror in your household. You are their safe zone. Congratulations. Right. They're oblivious to how they're treating you. This is what I'm talking about.

33:21Amy Wilson:Yeah. And I feel this and I've had this sometimes when I get mad. I'm like, God, you did. My husband, you know, you left this thing that I cooked out only. about? And he's like, OK, you're like freaking me out with this level of rage. And I'm like, it's just me. You know, you know me. I'm just obviously frustrated. But other people don't interpret your anger that's coming at them like a fire hose. It's like, oh, that's just Meg. She's just frustrated that she's just blown off steam. She's just blown off steam. They are experiencing what you are trying to give as a helpful critique, as a flame blower to the face.

33:57Amy Wilson:And that's not you You got to realize, and teenagers are huge like that. They're not really thinking when it's like, I wish I was never born in this family. That hurts you in a way that they may not be totally aware of. Right. Obviously, they're struggling with physical, emotional, and social changes. Teenagers, but also let's talk about younger kids. Like, when are you seeing this behavior? When is this boundary pushing, I hate you, or this emotional, I hate you coming out? Is it post-school restraint collapse? Is it when they're not fed enough? If you can use it as a clue to what's going on, because it is something they're communicating with you, even though it's not a communication you want.

34:39Amy Wilson:Yeah. Teenagers especially are trying to define themselves as independent. It's the work of becoming an adult. It's what it's all about. Right. They're learning to leave us and be on their own. Yeah. A little bit at a time. And when you think about it, it's easier to leave people you hate and don't have any connection to and don't like and don't respect than it is to leave the people who have had your back for your whole life. And so this goes two ways. I want to say a little bit about soiling the nest, which most people have heard of that. It's this idea that your kid will prepare to leave home to go to college or to leave home by being like, this place stinks anyway.

35:19They might not mean it, but they need to think they mean it in order to be able to go. And it goes two ways. I was researching this for Happy to Help. And it goes two ways. The mom who was like, get this kid back to junior year because I can't take it anymore. That's just the soiling of the nest happening in reverse. It's hard to be sundered. So you suck anyway, is how all of us prepare psychologically to do it.

35:44Amy Wilson:And the soiling of the nest is not just internal. It can be very much like, I hate this food. I hate your rules. It's very much, it can be external as well. It's not just what they're thinking. The actions come out as, you know, look at how much it sucks here because someone's always yelling, oh, hi, that person's me. Right. Right. I think this is important. Is it a mask to hide something else? This is all ages and stages. So I would say I'm not a psychologist. I don't know anything. But I think I hate you, mom. I hear often I hate myself. I hate how I feel. And there's you got to get underneath what's going on with the I hate you.

36:25Amy Wilson:because I do think it's almost always a dysregulation. It's a good indicator of dysregulation unless it's happening every single day, at which point I think you need to probably get in a professional to help you if you're just feeling like we're so lost in this that it does feel like we're just screaming I hate you at each other all the time. So are they struggling at school? Are they struggling in a relationship that, you know, what is going on that is making them this unhappy that we're at I hate you a lot. This last one, this is the Wendy Mogul medicine that I didn't want to take. Yeah. Is maybe it is a little bit you.

37:02Maybe you are kind of all over them because you can't believe that they're going to be going to college next year. You know, maybe you are really worried about things and so therefore telling them they have to do something every time they come in the room. Maybe you are overly controlling them.

37:20Amy Wilson:This is my work right now that I'm doing And here's the thing. I'm not amazing at it, but it is true that my kids all have great behaviors and tough behaviors. And right now I'm looking at them all the time in the story of, are they ready to leave for college? Are they ready? Are they ready to face blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. and therefore I am super corrector all the time. And do you know that if you're going to go on a date, you can't be eating your entire meal in four bites and your date's only going to see the top of your head. Do you know that if you record stuff in public, everybody can see that.

38:01Amy Wilson:I'm obviously fighting my own anxiety about have I done enough to prepare them for the world so that they don't go out there and make terrible decisions or make terrible mistakes or get themselves in stupid trouble. Because when they're in my little nest, I have control. I'm feeding them. I'm, you know, giving them everything they need and I'm with them all the time. But now they're about to leave the nest. And this period of my life feels completely governed by my own anxiety of I have to spend 24 hours a day being like, and don't send naked pictures of yourself on the internet. Like, wait, what?

38:36Amy Wilson:It's Tuesday. We were just talking about something else. Did you know that there's a scam where people call you and they want gift cards? That's not a real thing. Whatever it is, I'm panicked that they don't have the skills they need. And therefore, it is my job to correct every second of their behavior. Like I'm trying to pack in years worth of learning while they're trying to enjoy a day at the beach. Something that's really helped me with this, I read it along the way. I don't even remember who said it, but it's really, really helped me, which is to make sure that if you have three interactions with your teen or kid who says they hate you, whatever, that only one of the three can be, did you do this yet?

39:15Please go do this. Did you email the school, walk the dog, go to the dishwasher? I definitely have a tendency of a kid sitting and looking at their phone is an opportunity for improvement. Oh, yes. either the home or their gpa or whatever it is like isn't there something else you should be doing and it's not that i'm wrong it's that for the good of my relationship i need to make sure that two out of the three are like hey what's up did you sleep well the end so important yeah i'm

39:42Amy Wilson:not doing it right now i really need to work on like we talk about a list of responses this six point list okay five point list which we'll finish on is very i think apropos this is when somebody says I hate you, like things that you could say. This is I hate you. This is the response. Okay, what to say. All right. I'm going to say, I had to add to it, make sure they're out of red brain. Don't respond to anything. If they're in red brain, it's just like, I'll wait for you to come down. Like if a person is actively slamming doors, you're not having any useful interaction. The only thing that's useful is to present as calm a response as you can, yeah, a non-response as you can provide.

40:17Right. So number one, that really hurt my feelings.

40:20Amy Wilson:It worked. You were trying to hurt my feelings. It did. And I acknowledge that I'm not too scared to say, it really hurt my feelings. I just used this. I won't name and won't give any more details, but boy, did it really stop the red brain in his tracks. Like, what? I'm like, well, I think that's what you want. Yeah, that's what you were trying to do. And it worked. And then you don't like, and so therefore a young man, no, nothing. Just wow, that really hurt my feelings. Let them sit with it. Then try not to get on board. Right. That really hurt my feelings. And by the way, I hate your stupid face too.

40:49Amy Wilson:Right, right. React with empathy, bring the temperature down. So like, I can tell you're really upset. I can tell you're really nervous about heading back to school in a week, but let's figure out a better way to do that than like pooping all over mom. Same team, right? Like this is a stressful time and let's try to keep it calmer around here. Yeah. Bringing the temperature down. Humor, dangerous, but very effective. If you get to a place where you're like, well, that was a little out of control. I have one kid who this really goes well with. When I see it going to red brain and it's like, oh, I can't use your phone, my phone.

41:22Amy Wilson:I'm like, oh, they have an amazing new invention. You're going to love it. It's called a book. It has words on a page. Read it. And like, he hates it when I do it, but he always laughs, you know? So is there a time to inject? Remember me, mom, we get along. We're fine. We're going to laugh. I got to say this works if you're funny, you know, it doesn't work. If it goes wrong, it goes spectacularly wrong. If you try to inject humor and they're still in red brain, you're dead me. But it can be nice to find that moment. But then I think absolutely top of the hill most important is then redefine the boundary.

41:58Amy Wilson:Find the boundary. Because honestly, that is what the kid is looking for no matter what. And the boundary is not, you may not say that to me, young man. The boundary is my love for you is here, even if you are trying to push it away right now. What's the boundary? I think the boundary is, so you got really upset. We need to find a way that we don't get to that place again because it's too hurtful for me. You really it's not you are not allowed to say the words. I hate you because respect my authority But yes, I understand that you're really mad but screaming. I hate you and telling us you know that you hate being part of this family Does not mean it's okay for you to stay out until 4 a.m.

42:34Amy Wilson:And not tell us where you are Right, the boundary is the boundary and your behavior Has not scared us into changing our boundary because I think that's what young people are often looking for does this test work? I'm testing the joists and what they want to see is they hold counterintuitive. It's like a Batman villain, like they're robbing a bank and then they like throw smoke bombs as they depart. And you're chasing the smoke bombs. Like, yeah, you said that's, you know, here and there. You can't stay out till four o 'clock in the morning. These are great diversionary tactics. And maybe it is you can't.

43:10Amy Wilson:I mean, I've had conversations in my household with different people, like you are annoyed, but you just can't talk to us like we're garbage all day to make yourself feel better. Like that's not okay. Or you have said you're thinking of running away. That's not an appropriate thing to say. What we want to do is like, what are you really trying to say? Because this thing that you're saying is very disruptive and very chaos creating. And so is really not okay. And at the end of the day, I think leading back with, I love you. You know, I love you. I'm trying to solve this problem. I'm trying to get on the same side of the net.

43:50Amy Wilson:You are never going to drive me away with your words or behavior, but we need to fix the behavior and the words because they're too disruptive. I think we solved this today. Solved it. Also, it's totally normal. Totally normal. We've all been there. We've all heard it. and honestly a lot of us have felt it too but you know it's just how do we respond there might be somebody in your life who was just telling you how x kid is really giving them a hard time right now why don't you send them this episode just right now in the app just share it just send it like this was really helpful hit share post about it on social media about how much you enjoyed it and with that folks thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next time so long

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