Transitions

0:00This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen. Snacks. A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms. They're totally psyched to be leaving you behind. What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. I bet I can water ski. That'll be fun. With Margaret Aples and Amy Wilson.

0:43My love language is you doing the thing I remind you to do. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to. From first steps to death, I'm just worried that you're out there walking around without me. Hey, everyone. Welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Amy. And this is Margaret. And today, we're talking about transitions. Hard for moms, happy for kids. Yes. I have thoughts. But first, Amy, read us our mailbag. Our mailbag comes all the way from Hawaii this week. Over email, Christy emailed us to say, Dear Amy and Margaret, I just wanted to say thank you for all you do, but especially for something that has come up in recent episodes that has been really helpful in my day-to-day life with my eight-year-old daughter.

1:34You emphasize this in the recent deep dive on overscheduling, that kids may have the incorrect perception that how well they do with something or whether they do a certain thing impacts how much we love them. My daughter is highly motivated to do well and can get anxious about performance. After hearing this concept on your podcast, I now ask her sometimes, hey, question, if you get 100 on the test, will that make me love you more or less? Or, hmm, I hear you're nervous about the robotics competition. If your team doesn't win, will that make me more proud to be your mom or less proud? She just rolls her eyes and says the same either way, I know, but I can tell in her eyes that sometimes it is an important reminder to hear.

2:13Thanks for that. And for so much, you both are gems and my longtime parasocial besties, Christy Miliani, Hawaii. I love this. Thanks, Christy. Hope you're doing okay in Hawaii. They've had some bad weather recently, but thinking of you and thanks so much for reaching out with our mailbag. This is a great tip, by the way. We didn't give her this tip to say this. I think this is so funny, right? It gets at it in a funny sideways way. It's a great idea. It's going to come up again today. I think how we talk to kids about what we're feeling and giving voice to unspoken things. And I think it's something that we're not programmed to do necessarily as humans and can be a great thing.

2:57So I'm actually really glad we had this mailbag today because same as we start talking about this issue of transitions. So I recently sent my oldest off to college. I obviously have been thinking about it for a long time. Amy and I were talking about it. We were together in person recently, and it was kind of funny to me. I mean, I've always been a little tweet tweet about my kids spend a lot of time away from me. They travel to go see in-laws. They travel to go see my brothers and sisters. And, you know, when the parents are sobbing because the kids are leaving for the two-day trip to Washington that they do in eighth grade, I'm always a little bit like nice for you, but not my style.

3:43You know, I mean, I'm not judgmental of it, but I always hold myself a little bit apart. Like, I don't have that gene that is like, oh, my gosh, my muffin is leaving me for 12 hours. How will I survive? I feel like I have been a little bit judgmental about that. But you are right to point out that when you have built that in along the way, which I think is a nice thing to do. Don't have your kid leaving for college or be the first time they've ever slept not at your house. It's a good idea to get them out of the house before college. And to be fair, I'm probably a little judgmental about it, too.

4:17But I was trying to be self-protective, Amy. Then I dropped my kid off at college and he's going to college quite close by, but living on campus. And the weekend after we sent him was his dad's birthday and we had made a plan. So I knew he was coming home the weekend after I dropped him off. And so I was very much like, first of all, I don't care. I'm dead inside. This isn't going to affect me. And also, it's not like I'm dropping him, you know, in Ireland and then coming back across the sea. He's kind of right down the street. All this to say, I dropped him off and that day was super busy, fell into bed, you know, after moving all the stuff.

4:59I'm in the dorm on a hot day. Yeah. Passed out. And then the next night, I truly was laying in bed and thinking, you know, sometimes when something bad happens earlier in the day and you kind of forgot about the thing, but the feeling is still in your body. And you're like, oh, I have that bad, yucky feeling. And it's like, oh, my friend told me that her mom has cancer, whatever it is, like the feeling stays longer. And I was laying in bed and I was having the bad feeling. And I was kind of like, what is this feeling? So sudden and bad feeling to him. Yeah. I was like, oh, I have the bad feeling.

5:32And I was like, what is this feeling? What is this bad feeling? How mysterious. And then it took me half an hour of like laying there and kind of being very teary to think, oh, I'm sad because I'm missing my kid and I'm feeling really sad about this transition. And that's fine. I don't get a prize for being the person who doesn't care that their kid left for college. Yes. We said this all the time, but like persona, you have to be very careful of adopting certain personas because they become your personality when you're not looking. And my persona of like, I'm dead inside and everyone who cares about things is a loser and I'm too cool for emotions, which I've come by honestly by being raised Irish Catholic in a world where like, you know, crying at funerals is seen as like kind of loser behavior.

6:23But I had to have quite a little reckoning with myself of this is a normal human emotion that you were feeling for real reasons. And you're not cooler, hipper or anything by being like, I don't care that my kid left for college. So Amy, I am here. My name is Margaret. And I am sad that my kid left for college. This reminds me a little bit of our fresh take with Sona Movesesian, who wrote The World's Worst Mom, who is a comedian. And we talked a lot in that episode about like being comedian is great or having a funny perspective on things, which both you and I have like something crazy is happening.

7:03The stuff is hitting the fan. My head does immediately go to like, well, this is a good story for later. And it gets you through. But the flip side of that is your comic ability to roll your eyes at literally everything is not always the best approach. And so this is one of those moments where I think you and I are both like, tweet, tweet, like, stop crying. Who cares? Hashtag boy, mom. Okay, let him go, freaks. Yeah. Yeah, and it doesn't, it's not really enough to beat the moment, it turns out. I also want to say that this applies to transitions in general. So my starting point was my oldest leaving for college, but we're talking to a lot of moms who have kids a lot younger.

7:43College seems like a distant, far away. But it made me think I sound like a Carrie on original Sex and the City. So I couldn't help but wonder. It's also interesting to me that it's really hard and sad for me and like nervous, exciting for my kid. And so when you have a sad thing happen, you know, when grandma dies, everybody's sad. But at these transition times, you're sad and the other person is happy, excited, maybe nervous, maybe sad, maybe lonely, but like mostly you're not on the same page with your kid. Yeah. The disconnect is why these are hard. That's the point of what makes this hard is they're totally psyched to be leaving you behind.

8:24I found this article that had, I thought, a great quote. Sometimes motherhood asks us to celebrate the very thing we're grieving. Let me give you some examples. kids' birthdays or achievements. So birthdays, learning to walk, learning to ride a bike. Like these moments that you wait for, you want them to happen. But, you know, when your kid turns 10 and you no longer have anybody who's a single digit in the house, whatever it happens to be, even one can sometimes feel like, oh, I don't have a baby anymore. I don't have a newborn anymore. If it's your last, whatever. Child gets a driver's license.

9:06I'm not familiar with that feeling. Amy, I'll tell you all about it. What's that like? Child gets into their dream college. They move into their first apartment. Now, this is an interesting one for me. You've been through this, but I was talking to a cousin of mine, and she was saying that of all the transitions, her child getting their first apartment was the hardest because she said if it goes well, they're never coming home again. Like in college, you have they'll come home for the summers. They'll come home for but like the first apartment for her. She said that was where the like weight really dropped for her of like, oh, this is a true end.

9:48I just said goodbye to my oldest kid who was able to spend a lot of the month of August with us. Job allows that to happen and just said goodbye to him at the airport the other day. And And I said something like, well, it'll be good to get home, get to the grocery store, get your stuff ready. And I caught myself saying that he was going home to an apartment in another city where I don't live. Ouch. And I didn't correct myself because it is his home. Did he clock that? No. No. No. And I was like, wow, I just called it his home. And he didn't say, well, it's not my home because it is. My home is really with you, mommy.

10:24No. Right. And I was like, that was, oh, wow. I'm so proud of this kid making their way in a new city, but wow, that's their home now. Yeah. On the flip side, we acknowledge these are conversations that hold many things at the same time. So I think with college, it's like, but look, they're living their dream. No, I get that they're doing something great, but I'm having a hard time. You can hold both things at the same time. I think for people, this is scaled and weighted that for some, like the first time they sleep away from their baby, this is a huge hard moment. Wasn't really for me, but like this feeling will find you somewhere along the path.

11:10So let's talk about like even little kids. We understand implicitly and on every level that healthy development means encouraging independence, Right. Like there was a Game of Thrones character who was like in her 50s maybe and had like a 10 year old who was still breastfeeding and like lived right next to her and stuff. I mean, you don't want that. That's not what we're going for. Yeah. But that it's hard that they're spending more time on their own. Or I think spending more time on their own is one thing because you might have a kid who draws travel sports. So you don't see or who travels a lot.

11:46But I have found that the phase where any one of my children goes from mommy, you're prettier than a thousand Barbies and I love you and put the bandaid out and make my life OK to even rolling their eyes at me like that's a transition. And I understand a thousand percent that a child who never pushes back against a parent is on the wrong path. That's right. But when I have a kid who, whenever my husband traveled for work, we would have a little sleepover party and like, come on in and sleep in my bed and we'll watch a TV right before we fall asleep. And we just had these cute little routines that we would do.

12:31I remember those days. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's the first night where you're like, it's slumber party. Actually, I'm talking to my friend on the phone and I definitely don't want to have a slumber party with my mommy. We want that moment to come, but it's also okay to sit in the feeling of like, wow, that hurts. Yeah. You're so right. And to not hit yourself with the second arrow of like, here you are being a loser for feeling sad. Explain the second arrow again, because we haven't talked about it in a little while. So I am not a Buddhist, but I really am interested in some of the ideas of Buddhism.

13:05So the Buddhism, the second arrow of suffering is first your kid on the phone says, like, I'm on the phone, mom, don't interrupt me. And you're like, I thought we were having a slumber party. So first it's the, you know, surprise that something has changed. And then the second arrow in this case would be like the beating yourself up, the lack of self-compassion that causes even more suffering. In this case, like, oh, why can't I get a life? Therefore, I can't get over this. I'm supposed to be a cool mom who doesn't care about stuff. Right. Or what have I done that makes my kid not want to spend time with me anymore?

13:35That might be the second arrow. But the meaning that you attach to the arrow is the second arrow. And that causes even more suffering than the first one. I'm going to take a slight aside. I'm having such a second arrow. And my husband just reminded me of this. I decided this weekend, like a moron, that I would go water skiing. I haven't water skied since I was 16 years old. and we were at a lake with my cousins and I was like, I bet I can water ski. That'll be fun. I've been having like a problem with arthritis in one of my hips and I just, you forget. You're out there, you're like, I'm 22. This will be awesome.

14:11I'm like, oh, water skiing used to be fun when I literally have not water skied since I was 16. Get behind the boat, hold the rope, and immediately the skis go in two completely different directions. I am forced into like a crazy split, fall forward. And I have now torn like all the muscles in the back of my leg to the point where I'm having trouble walking. And I'm currently recording this like in a reclined position. And all I kept saying is, I can't believe how stupid I was. I can't believe I did something so stupid as decided to go water skiing. And my husband did finally say to me, you're fun.

14:47It was fun. I love that you're game and you're trying stuff. And like, that's the second arrow. Like be in pain in your legs because you fell down, but don't spend all this time being like, this is all my fault because I'm a stupid idiot. Why not just be like, yeah, I tried something fun. It didn't work out great. Second arrow. All right. We'll be back to more mourning these transitions after this break, Amy. I am so over underwire bras, but until now I could never find a wireless bra that gave me the right support without the whole like sports bra uniboob effect going on. And then I found Honeylove.

15:26Amy, same. The Honeylove X Balance Bra isn't anything like your average wireless bra. You know how seriously, friends, I take being cozy. The X Balance Bra, I'm here to tell you, it's like a soft hug. And then the signature X design at the center gives you real lift and no more uni boob separation. I love it. It is no, I wear Honey Love every single day from structured dresses to thin t-shirts. The X Balance bra is so comfortable to wear. It looks good and everything. It is my go-to bra. And we love Honey Love because they are an independent female founded brand with products designed by the women who actually wear them.

16:07You can't say that about a lot of bras, Amy. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20 % off Honeylove at honeylove.com slash fresh. That's honeylove.com slash fresh. After you check out, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Experience the new standard in comfort and support with Honeylove. Amy, you know that in our relationship, you have historically been the one to care about skincare. But let me tell you, Osea Skincare is an award-winning bestseller for a reason. Osea has been delivering results you can see and feel for 30 years.

16:45And after several months of using Osea's Dream Bioretinol Body Serum, I myself am a true believer. I also have the Dream Bioretinol Body Serum right there next to my sink so I can use it at night and right after getting out of the shower. Like everything Osea makes, it's deeply moisturizing, but also silky and non-greasy, absorbs fast and works fast. I'm really seeing the difference on my chest, or as we say, in the skincare world, on my décolletage. Also, the Dream Bio Retinol Body Serum smells like lavender just the right amount, which puts me in the space I need to go right before my sleepy times.

17:25Give your skin a little TLC. Go to oseamalibu.com and get 10 % off your first order with code fresh. That's O-S-E-A Malibu dot com code fresh. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen? Snacks? A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms. Another piece of the transition morning in a lot of these things is that from taking your first steps to getting a driver's license to getting your first apartment is that it opens another door of anxiety for mom as well.

18:25So like you're not only sad, but you're nervous, right? Like the kid starts to walk. Have I covered all the outlets with the little plastic thingies? You know, the kid starts to drive. I mean, the nervousness of that, forget about it. And so it's not just sadness that comes in. It is less control. I mean, an infant in your belly is the most control, right? Then you have the baby. That was a hard transition for me of like, oh my gosh, vulnerable infant out of my body, right? And I developed some really bad postpartum anxiety, which was hormonal, but also just the idea of like, I'm less in control.

19:07And then they start to walk. And I mean, a baby in arms is, you have a lot of control over. And I think the idea that these transitions, literally a walking child can move farther away from you physically, a driving child, a child who starts rolling their eyes. There is both sadness and nostalgia, but then also worry is a big part of it. My child is now a college several, several states away. And it isn't that my child might not need something or fail or fall down or stick their finger in an outlet, whatever the version of that, right? It's that not only can you not prevent that from happening, it's that you won't even be there.

19:47It isn't like they're fine now, they don't need you. They might need some help in what will happen then. That uncertainty is a big part of this, I think. I remember being a young adult living in an apartment and I turned on the stove, lit the gas on top of the stove. And back in the day, there was something called a pilot light in a stove that you had to light separately. It was a very old apartment. I had literally never heard the term pilot light. I've never seen anyone have to light a stove. So I didn't light the stove. the stove filled with gas and then hit the range and exploded through me across the room and I was briefly like my sweater was briefly on fire I was totally fine I was unhurt I called my mom I was like you won't believe this thing they have a little blah and she was freaking out and she was like oh god oh god and I said well don't worry it now I know and she goes it just makes me think of all the other things you don't know that I don't know you don't know yeah and that's it right like I'm worried.

20:47I'm worried that you're walking around. Not knowing. From first steps to death, I'm just worried that you're out there walking around without me. It's hard. We talked in a recent episode about swimming back to the wall. The kids swim back to the wall when they're learning to swim. First, they're only on the wall. They won't leave the wall. Then they start to leave. Then they're mostly off the wall. And they only come back to you after maybe some mean kids splash them a little bit too much. And sometimes they need to push back off the wall and join their peers by being like, Mom, why do you even care about that?

21:18They might be a little bit nasty as they push back off the wall in order to get ready to go. Anyway, I think about that a lot in this new stage of my life when your kid is out there not knowing about pilot lights that don't light. Because when my kid does tend to come back to the wall, it's usually to let me know that they fell and they might have broken something, but they're not sure. I'm really tired today. That's the chickens. When they come back to the wall, it's only to let you know, like, here's something for you to worry about, Mom. Hold this for me. Okay, bye. And then they leave again.

21:47It's a tough transition because you don't get to hear the... Lunch was fun and I sat next to a new kid that I really like. You only hear, like, something might be really wrong. Okay, bye. Well, Obama used to say when he was president, by the time it gets to me, all the smart people have already tried to solve it. Like, if it can be solved under him, then it doesn't get to him. So he's like, the problems are just hard because I have a lot of smart people working for me. And it's only if they can't figure it out that it involves me. And I think that is exactly what you're talking about. Like it only elevates to you if it's a problem and if no one else could solve it for them.

22:24That's right. So anxiety. And then also, I think mourning and what you've lost. And so things you might be mourning during transition, your daily routine. So that might be, I loved holding my baby for six hours a day. And now that they're walking, that time is over. That is hard. I will tell you, I had the sadness the first night and then we kind of were on vacation and doing a bunch of things, having a great time. And then we came back and just the way the timing worked out, we had our first meal as a family after traveling, after dropping my kid off. And the first night we sat down to the table and there was four of us instead of five of us.

23:07It got me all over again. Like, wow. Wow. It can hit you at different phases. Being needed in the same way is part of that as well, right? Like you talk about this all the time. And I think it's so insightful that the world and being a mother kind of asks you to put away a lot of parts of yourself and devote a lot of yourself to the job of mothering. And then when that job disappears, the story is immediately like, stop being a hovering idiot, you dummy. It's like, wait, I was very needed. Is it like someone breaking up with you. It's just a very, it gets ripped out from under you and it feels terrible.

23:53I think it's a lot like somebody breaking up with you. And I don't remember what movie I saw recently that had a scene. I'm seeing the scene in my head right now. And I don't remember the movie of the person being like, please don't leave me. Like on the floor crying while the other person is like packing their bag, like, okay, bye. Clearly the loser is the person crying on the floor. You are a loser for having, you know, dedicated your life to this other person who's leaving you. But it was the assignment. It was the job. I feel like at least being broken up with your girlfriends come over with like mint chip ice cream to be like, he stinks and I help they help you cry.

24:29And I think that these little leavings just kind of it's a little death by a thousand cuts sometimes. And when you're like, I'm sad that my kid's going on the Washington trip, I sit there and make fun of you. Like it's it's hard, you know? Right. This is also wrapped up with like, who are you, right? Right, who am I now? You are a mom of littles. My sister, who is the youngest of four, by quite a bit, we're three in three years. We're born every year, my brother and sister and I. And then my sister is five years younger than me. So she was always the baby of the family. And she has a big birthday coming up.

25:07And she's like, it's killing me. And I think it's because it's part of my identity to always be like the young one. Oh, your brothers and sisters are older, but you're the little one. And I mean, we literally call her Whittle in our family because she's the little one, you know. And I do think loss of identity is hard for people. Full stop. Passive or spontaneous time with your kids is harder to come by. I've talked about this with divorced friends. Like the problem isn't that you don't see them, but if you're seeing them on a schedule, it's like you just miss the interactions that happen at breakfast.

25:47Like a lot of the interactions you have with your kids, it's not the same as being on the phone with them, you know? That's right. You miss the thing of like, oh my gosh, you're so funny how you always sneeze when you walk out in the sun. You know, like I laugh every time you do it because it's so cute. You remind me of your dad. Like the micro joys, you kind of do lose that. The micro micro interactions. It's a singular version of this idea of like, during the pandemic, we all lost. You stop saying hi to the guy at the coffee shop because you don't go get your coffee at the coffee shop anymore.

26:17You just make it at home because why wouldn't you? But you've lost that micro interaction. You're losing that with your own kids. That's right. Certainly when they start full day school, when they come home during high school and just go right to the room or sometime sooner, the parts of your children's lives that they share with you start to be much smaller than the parts that they do not. This is a question I have for you because Because another thing that I think I wasn't thinking about when I sent my first to college is first of three. So I was sort of like, well, I think it'd be hard to be an empty nester, but I'll still have two kids at home when my first leaves.