What Does "Dating" Look Like For Teens and Tweens These Days?

23:20Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Again, we're missing the point where I answer the phone and it's like, Tommy, you better say, hi, Mrs. Ables. How are you doing? Can I talk to Barbara? I remember running for the phone so that because if the phone rang around nine o 'clock, it was definitely for me. And I ran so that my very nice boyfriend, Jeff, you know, might not have to speak to my mother or father who would have been perfectly nice and who probably were like, oh, the phone's ringing. It's for Amy. I'm going to keep watching St. Elsewhere. They weren't jumping up to get the phone either. Because it was, oh, you had to talk to somebody's parents.

23:52It was very scary.

23:54Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:But the flip side is they knew Jeff's name and they had met Jeff. Sure. This is a whole new world that is very complicated, right? That you have a child who went to karate class as a 13-year-old and met someone who they're interested in. And they're now having a text relationship with, you know, Bob from karate, who you don't know, and you don't know is having a relationship with your child. And I would say not even text messaging, like my teenagers tend to like, yes, do they text with their friends? Yes, but they are more likely to be internet messaging or Snapchatting. It's not even visible on their lock screen.

24:35So like, one of my kids could be my kids are old enough that this is fine, what they're doing is none of my business at this point because they're old enough, but they could be having a conversation with somebody who's romantically interested in them or likewise. And even if their phone is docked in the kitchen, you're not even seeing it because it's existing nested within a social media app.

24:54Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Yeah. And this is where, again, have you had these conversations? I'm talking to myself. Does your 19-year-old know that they cannot have a flirty conversation with a 15-year-old? seems very obvious as an adult, right? Like we understand this, but maybe that's a senior and a freshman and they don't, you know, especially I think freshman girls look a lot older than senior boys sometimes. But have you put a very fine point on it? I mean, my sister tells a funny story about being on a trip and there was an older woman there, the grandma, and she was like, you guys know not to send pictures of yourselves, your nude butts to people, don't you?

25:41Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And like, my sister was laughing at like, okay, this is a crazy conversation. But has someone said that out loud to your child? And is it you? Yeah, you should not take pictures. And the way I express it to my child, which I think has been pretty effective is, please understand that anything you ever send to someone, I want you to picture your school principal and myself and your dad sitting in a room and seeing that and discussing it in front of you. I think that the unraveling of romantic relationships, which are difficult when you're in your teen years, is when text messaging is the worst idea, right?

26:23Like pick up the phone. If you're talking about whether you're breaking up or not, or did you talk to this one or not, if you're having conflict, talk on the phone, stop texting each other. And I do think that there is a reticence among literally all of us, but especially our kids to speak in person over texting. But yes, texting can be screenshotted, can be sent to somebody, can be, no, get your romantic dealings out of texts because it's complicated.

26:51Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And I think so importantly, stay on the same side of the net with your child against the problem. So if the example is my friend met a guy over the internet or even met a guy in karate class, he wanted to meet up with her and they met up. And right away, he was pressuring them to go to a second location where they could make out. And she thought it was very much a, oh my gosh, we have a sweet little crush and we're going to sit at the soda shop drinking. Like we're going to sit at McDonald's having Cokes and staring deeply into each other's eyes. I think you have to put a fine point on it sometimes that if you are sneaking behind my back, you lose a huge source of support in your dating relationship.

27:43Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:I will maybe let you go to the soda shop with a boy you're interested in to have a conversation, but let's have a code. If it's not going well, text me this and I will just show up at the soda shop. You need training wheels as a 14-year-old and I can be that, but not if you are going behind my back. We need to establish this trust with our five, six, seven, eight-year-olds and say, I want to be your training wheels. I am not here to come in and scream and pounce and say, you idiot. How did you put yourself in this situation? But you can more safely explore romantic ideas if you are safer. And that's what we're going for.

28:33Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Us figuring out together how to navigate romantic feelings safely. And I think, and I have seen play out, and I'm going to be gendered here, and I know people don't love that, but this is my lived experience that young girls sometimes think of romance as the kind of twilight version the vampire who cannot have sex with you but is so in love with you he just wants to stare deeply into your eyes and tell you how awesome you are they go in with that expectation and a boy might come into the same expectation with this girl likes me and we're gonna make out and that's gonna be awesome. Right. And there's these bases I've been told about.

29:15Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Right. And my job is to move around the bases. And there's no, I mean, it's also funny that it's baseball where there's really no defense, you know, like it's like, it's not football where it's like, there's an offensive line trying to stop me from my goal. It's baseball. I just got to hit the right shot and run the bases. I have put a pretty fine point on that with both my boys and girls about like, you have to know what your expectations are. I will say my boys are very familiar with the concept of consent. That is something that's being discussed much more. And I like the way they talk about it.

29:54Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:But consent is something that we start talking about with three-year-olds. You're tickling that kid. They're asking you to stop and you're not stopping. Stop stops the game. there's this instagram account i'll put a link in the show notes called emerging kings it is a black man who is teaching boys mostly black boys in the video although there's kids of other races too how to do all sorts of things how to use a fire extinguisher how to check in for a flight like here's life lessons but at least half the lessons are him acting out in front of them you know let me give you a hug to a woman and her being like oh i don't know i don't know I don't know.

30:32He's like, oh, come on, come on. What's the problem? And then he stops. He's like, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong, guys? And these 10-year-old boys saying, like, you didn't listen to what you were saying. And he's teaching consent. I'll share the account because I think you'd like it. I think our listeners would like it. I think these would be great to show to your kids if you're looking for, like, how do I start talking about consent without their eyes rolling back in their head? Like, share these videos with them and see what they think about them. They're so engaging. And it's so important, as you say, to be talking about this before they're at the age where they're dating.

31:01Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Absolutely. And I think that underscoring these things with boys and girls from a young age, no stops anything that's going on. The minute you hear the word no, it stops everything. Then if one person in the know is like, no, no, no, it's fine. I'm like, then don't say no, because no stops the game. This is a lesson that I think is super important. And I wasn't comfortable as a young person. I think one of the reasons I didn't date and I've told the story on the podcast is at some point I got invited to my first party ever. And like the hot lacrosse boys were like, we need beer and we need you to drive us.

31:41Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And I didn't have a driver's license. I had a permit. And I was like, OK. And I just drove them to a liquor store with no license. And they bought beer and put it in my parents' car. And then I drove back to the party. At one point, I like hit the curb because I wasn't a good driver. And I remember thinking, if my parents caught me doing this, they would be shocked. They know they've taught me not to do this. But all that fell away the minute a cute lacrosse boy looked at me. And that's human. Right. So that's why you have to be talking about this early and often, because they're not always going to make great choices.

32:17Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And what does it feel like to say no? And it doesn't feel good. And then what's the second part when you start feeling bad about saying no? And I'm not saying you can prevent your kid from ever being in a bad situation, but start having these conversations very early. Yeah, we'll be right back. It's so important for our kids to be confident in the water because then our kids will be safe. But then you have to deal with cold pools, cranky adults swimming laps right next to them and getting in the water with the kids. Amy, you're giving me flashbacks, but not anymore. Now there's Goldfish Swim School.

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35:04Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:and now the six types of moms explaining the birds and the bees from the what fresh how podcast the playing it cool mom listen guys this is no big deal it's something everyone does i'm sure you've heard lots of things at school but we're just gonna talk it out okay no pressure no weirdness Just a chat ski with the old momstress. Nice and easy. The, I'm not going to make this awkward, awkward mom. I know this seems really awkward. Oh my God. When my mom talked to me about this stuff, it was so incredibly awkward. I'm not going to make this awkward. Should we sit? Because standing feels awkward.

35:44Okay. I think we may be sitting too close. That also feels awkward. And I do not want this to be awkward. The, let's lighten this up mom. The old bird and the bees. You know when a bee mates, don't you? When she finds her honey, get it? Well, it's time to talk about the birds and the bees. Buzz, buzz, and flap, flap. Am I right? I mean, could this be any weirder, talking to your mom about this stuff? Cringe. Am I right? The professorial mom. Gather round, children. I have a PowerPoint presentation that I will begin once everyone is seated. And the giggling has completely ceased. When you are ready, we will begin with the urethral orifice before moving on to the glands majoris.

36:23the having trouble getting started mom. So I wanted to talk to you about something. What's the word? It's sensitive, but it's not bad sensitive. In fact, it can be a wonderful thing. I mean, really one of the most wonderful experiences there is. But this experience should not be undertaken lightly. I mean, it's special in a very specific way that I want to talk to you about because it's so important in private. It is also private, but not in a bad way.

36:55Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Okay, wait, where was I? This has been Six Types of Moms Explaining the Birds and the Bees from the What Fresh Hell podcast.

37:10Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:So I'm just going to touch lightly because I feel like we understand this stuff. Online is causing problems that we're not familiar with, right? People are public online. The breakup is then public. There's a lot of people involved when you're in an online, you know, relationship status, dating, change to single. Everyone's got questions. I think back in our day, it was maybe easier to be like, are you guys together? Oh, we're just talking. And now we're not talking anymore. And that the aspects of online interaction have made this more complicated. And 69 % of teen daters, this is still from Pew Research, agree that too many people can see what's going on in their relationship on social media.

37:53Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:It's adding a pressure that we are not as aware of. Lots of negative aspects of technology, and we'll link to this article, and you can look at them. Here's an article from Child Mind, how to help your kids have good romantic relationships. Here are some rules to start to follow. All right. Some good parts, some good ideas for good relationships. Look for someone you feel comfortable with is a rule. What does that look like? Can you be yourself around them or do you have to change? Can you have different opinions than them or are you molding your opinions to theirs? Do you trust this person when you're not with them?

38:29Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And are you feeling pressured to do things that you don't want to do? This is obviously sexual, but also going places you don't want to go, drinking when you don't want to drink, wearing things you don't want to wear. And I think breaking these ideas down, and this doesn't always have to be, and I think it's better if it's not directly about your kid. But like, ha, you're noticing that your friend has a boyfriend and they seem to be controlling her actions. What's wrong with that? Why does that make you feel uncomfortable? What would you do in a situation like that? And just, again, these conversations, your friend Bobby made friends with Timmy, and now they seem like a completely different person.

39:12Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Why is that? Why do people do that? These are conversations that don't have to be about dating. They're about what it is to change yourself to be pleasing to another person. And what are the downsides of that? I just thought of another one. The way that the texting the phones can be hard with this. Why didn't you text me back? Like I texted you. Why didn't you text me back? Right. Whether it's two in the morning, whether it's in the middle of history class, whether they texted you six times already. I definitely have had to talk to people who are younger than me, but not as young as you might think, who really had to have it explained to them that you don't have to answer your boyfriend every time he texts you within 10 seconds, even if you're in the middle of your workday.

39:50And if that is the expectation, then the problem is the expectation.

39:53Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Another aspect that you've talked about, and I think is super useful, don't forget your friends. You talked about dating at a young age, and that you kind of were single focused on a boyfriend and that you look back and it's like, wait, I missed out on developing better friendships because I was always thinking about a boy. That's right. And I think that's something to put a fine point on for your friends. It's like, listen, the other reason I don't think dating is a great idea before 16 is like, you need to build up a base of friendships. And when you focus on one person at a young age, it costs you something.

40:29And heaven knows the romantic relationships complicate the pre-existing friendships that you have. Like, do you want to start some drama among your friends? One of you should start dating something that somebody else likes or whatever. It's just, it is, it's a powder keg.

40:46Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:It causes a lot of consternation and like you can want it or not want it, but you have to know you're making that choice. That's right. Be your own person. This comes back a little bit to, you want to share interest with the person you're dating. You don't want to become the person you're dating who they want to date. and I think this is very hard for young people and it's something to continue talking about. And I don't want to see you giving up ballet because your boyfriend wants to spend more time with you. And I don't want to see you as a youngster, again, giving up ballet, let's say, as a boy because your friends think it's lame to do ballet if you're a boy.

41:29Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:You can always make choices to make yourself smaller, to make other people like you, but I'm going to help you see what that costs you. Well said. Don't hide from problems. Problems in a relationship are very, very normal. It does not mean the relationship is doomed, but problems get bigger, not smaller. And it's much better to admit that something's wrong and talk about it and try to fix it, then push it to the side. You shouldn't just stop answering their texts and that's how they know you don't like them anymore? I believe, Amy, that's not the way to do it. I'll be sure to pass that on. A second point of this that, again, we can start doing when we're three, four, five, what is good conflict and what is bad conflict?

42:14Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And this, the more your kids understand this as young kids, the more effective they're going to be in dating. You can explain how you feel to somebody. You can have a difference of opinion. You can argue about who's going to play with that truck right now. But how are we dealing with conflict? Are we giving up the minute someone feels conflict with us? Or are we solving disagreements with other people, whether that person is your brother or your first crush? Here's a topic none of us really want to think about, but it's important to help our kids recognize ahead of time, as you said, early and often, what are the signs of abusive relationships for themselves or their friends?

42:52So let's go through some of those signs. Let's go through some of those signs. Say the boyfriend or girlfriend in an abusive relationship might be constantly critical, make you feel bad, try to keep you away from your friends or family. I think that's part of what the texting all the time is about, constantly interrupting your continuity with literally anything else. Then they want to check your messages, who else you're talking to.

43:12Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:I think this piece of monitoring is super important. Monitoring your phone, monitoring your social media, your location. Then we get into threatening something bad will happen if you break up. They will hurt themselves or they will hurt you, force you to do things you don't want to do, make you feel guilty and hurt you. I'm going to say this starts at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. All of us have had kids who are in a friendship that we're like, I don't like the way that person treats you. They don't treat you really well. And here's my concern about how you are being treated in that relationship. These conversations you don't want to have them for the first time when your child is in an abusive teenage dating relationship you want to be having all the time and you can model this stuff too unfortunately i had to step away from a situation where i just felt like even though i had a lot of love for this person you can talk to your kids about relationships you were in how they ended my husband was divorced my kids are really interested in that like what happened wasn't an abusive relationship but like how did you realize that you had married someone you were not compatible with what did that look like how did you extricate yourself unfortunately it took me too long to realize i felt these things and i was worried but i ended up getting married anyway because i felt pressure to do that the kind of conversations the other thing that happens a lot it's like you watch television with kids this is a great time to be like i was in a relationship like that and i had the same problem I was having trouble getting out of it because I loved this person, but it wasn't good for either one of us to be together.

44:54Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:That is such a hard situation. Here's how I handled it. That's such a good point because you get into these relationships and of course, making you question your own self-worth is part of it, but you think that nobody else has gone through this particular thing before. And once you understand that your mom has or your aunt or uncle has, it hits different. And I believe strongly it is easiest to talk about these things when you are not like, Amy, I hate Bob, your boyfriend. Or Amy, your boyfriend Bob is bad for you. Amy is going to be like, Bob had a tough childhood and you don't understand. And the more you have these conversations before Bob arrives, the better you're going to be able to hypothetically or about a friend or about.

45:39Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Yes, I know you girls have been friends since you were eight, but right now it seems like you're treating each other really badly. And I don't like that. And how can we fix that? And that is going to lead us into the stickiest part of this. What happens if you don't like the person your child is dating? Okay. I'm going to get the big things out of the way first. Where is this coming from? Is it coming from prejudice, bias, religious beliefs? Leave it. You have no control over that. Is it coming from homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, political phobia? Is it coming from something that is not your business, whether or not your child likes someone you don't like?

46:17Leave it. That's not your business.

46:19Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:But is it coming from somewhere that you feel like, wait a minute, it's Bob. He's abusive. We hate him. He's leading my child down a bad path. I don't like it. The number one thing we have to acknowledge for ourselves is what level of control you have in this situation, which unfortunately is very close to zero. And watching your child make mistakes and letting them make those mistakes is a horrible feeling. Yeah. I mean, there's such a difference between like, I don't like my daughter's boyfriend because he's not Catholic or he is Catholic or whatever. Right. And I don't like my daughter's boyfriend because I don't think he treats her well.

46:58Like that's a huge difference.

47:00Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And it might be important to you, as it was very important to my parents, that we marry Catholic people in the Catholic Church. That was their tradition. It had been done for hundreds of years in both of their Irish families. And some people did and some people didn't. This is, if you want to explore this, watch Fiddler on the Roof, right? Like Tevye, the father, is like, we do it this way. and each of his daughters challenges him in different ways. And then one of the daughters at the end, he's like, I can bend, but I can't break. And the daughter makes a decision that is outside what he can accept.

47:34Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Beautiful story, great musical, great music. And you have to be very clear on these things too, right? That like, if you will not accept your child marrying someone of a different religion, that is your choice. You can make that choice, but your child may choose to marry someone from a different religion and then you won't have a relationship with them. That is a choice that you can make. Yes, but I also think what's very important to keep in mind, particularly in this day and age, as people are marrying later and later and the kid that you don't like when they're 16, I'm not talking about a kid you don't like because they're mean to your kid, a kid that you don't like because they come from the wrong side of town.

48:16Or like I said, he's Catholic and I don't like Catholic people. I'm saying that because I am Catholic. So I can, I can feel like I can throw that slur around. Your kid is not going to marry this kid. It's fine. You know, you start like laying down the hammer on every sort of like, I didn't like that he wore a backwards baseball cap to dinner, you know, then it's going to be a long road and you just let them figure out that the kid was kind of boring. He didn't have that much to say on their

48:44Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:about things to think about when your child is dating someone you don't like. Number one, have this conversation at a calm moment. Try to have this conversation about other kids before it comes home to you. Uh-huh. Right? Like, oh, gosh, her parents don't like her. What is that like? How does she feel about it? What do you think? Does the parent have legitimate points or not? Like, again, conversation is king. Number two, you will not get anywhere with passive aggressive comments about this person. Oh, backwards baseball cap. What a rude, not my day, right? Not helpful. You can have a conversation about like, hey, I found it rude that your boyfriend came to the table and didn't take his hat off the whole time.

49:27Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:You can have that conversation at a calm time, pick the hills you want to die on, you know, and your kid may react lots of different ways. And you can also set the rules for your own house. hey bobby we don't wear baseball caps at the table just take it off before you come to our table that's how we operate i'm big on like my house my rules your house your rules and then i think the biggest thing is amy your rope are you in a tug of war with your child almost always the best thing to do is drop your end of the rope because they're getting a lot out of how much you hate bobby drop the rope and see what happens if i thought you could tug hard enough to get them to break up with Bobby, I'd be like, keep pulling.

50:08Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:I don't believe you can. Therefore, I think the answer in most cases is to drop the rope. And you may have to do some Al-Anon-based work around like what I can and can't control and the wisdom to know the difference. And this is a place where, again, moms of three-year-olds, let's start laying groundwork so that we have a lot of room to have these conversations at 14, 15, 16, and 30, because just parachuting in to be like, this guy is trash, and I know it and you don't, it's not going well. I'm sorry. We teach our daughters and our sons from a young age to value themselves and to hold their value enough that they hold in esteem who they want to spend time with in friendships and in romantic relationships.

50:56That work's going to go a lot farther.

50:57Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:And I'm going to close very quickly because, man, there's a lot to talk about here. Yeah, there is. I hate to tell you, it's our old friend modeling. The New York Times did a decades-long study that suggests that close relationships with family members during teenage years leads to a rich network of friendships and positive relationships in adulthood. Your kids are going to marry somebody like you or your spouse, and they're going to have a relationship that reflects the relationship they've grown up with at home. And so how you treat your spouse in front of your children, whether they're three or 30, is going to inform a lot in who they seek out as a partner.

51:38That's true.

51:38Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:Gotta model it. We hate to say it. It all comes down to modeling. That's true. Well, yeah, they're not dating these days. They're just talking. They're hanging out, Amy. They're hanging. They're hanging. Actually, come tell us on Spotify. You can comment right on episodes on Spotify. So I want to know what are your kids calling it dating? They're not calling it dating. We definitely are oldie locks for using that term. So in my house, it's talking and hanging out. I'm curious if there's more euphemisms. Yeah. And we may end up with the dating part too, because there was a whole thing we didn't even get to dating trends with all of these terms like shallance, which is the opposite of nonchalance and ghost lighting.

52:17Heidi K. and Margaret Ables:We may have to do a whole other episode. We're like, what's going on with the lingo out there, guys? We will definitely do that in an upcoming episode. That sounds like a blast. Until then, hit us up on Spotify with those questions and we will talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody.

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