In short
How “typical” kid behavior becomes a problem, emphasizing that labels (on a spectrum) can reduce shame and guide support. The episode uses frameworks like after-school restraint collapse (kids hold it together at school, then melt down at home) and “it’s a problem when it’s a problem for you.” It covers disruptive mood dysregulation disorder (DMDD) vs normal tantrums, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, pathological demand avoidance, ARFID, dorsal vagal shutdown (freeze/dissociation), and delayed sleep-wake phase disorder (DSWPD).
Guests
Marguerite (Margaret Aples) and Amy Wilson, hosts of What Fresh Hell / What Fresh Michelle, parenting educators/therapist-informed perspectives (they cite experts but are the on-air speakers).
Key claims
Diagnosis isn’t to pathologize; it’s to explain normal human reactions to prior experiences and to target scaffolding. Focus on impact, persistence, and impairment (school, friendships, household functioning).
Notable examples
daily severe crankiness; avoiding social activities due to fear of rejection; “Dr. No” resisting every demand; ARFID causing growth/food distress and choking fears; freezing at Disney; extreme difficulty falling asleep until ~2 a.m.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Typical Behavior vs. Something More
1:01 to 2:15
Explore how to recognize when typical child behavior indicates deeper issues.
“week we are going to talk about when typical behavior tips into something more and how that thing that you notice in your kid is a thing.”
After School Restraint Collapse
2:15 to 3:38
Discuss the concept of after school restraint collapse and its effects on children.
“And the way in was one of our favorite terms is after school restraint collapse, which is completely self-explanatory.”
Disruptive Mood Dysregulation Disorder Explained
3:38 to 5:03
Learn about DMDD and how it differs from typical tantrums in children.
“Explain that a little more, because I think it's interesting.”
Identifying When to Seek Support
5:03 to 7:34
Recognize signs that may indicate a need for additional support for your child.
“And I will go to my sister-in-law, Christy Martin.”
Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria
7:34 to 12:12
Discuss rejection sensitivity dysphoria and its impact on children's emotions.
“diagnoses that depression is different than being sad sometimes.”
Understanding Fear of Rejection
14:00 to 15:16
Explore the complexities of children's fear of rejection and how to address it.
“I think getting more into what is this fear of rejection and helping the kid in an age appropriate way.”
Understanding Fear of Rejection
15:24 to 15:34
Explore the complexities of children's fear of rejection and how to address it.
“That's Q-U-I-N-C-E quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365 65 day returns.”
The Diagnosis Debate
18:26 to 20:40
Discuss the impact of diagnoses on children's behaviors and reactions.
“Back in my day, kids made friends, and they didn't have, you know, blah, blah, blah diagnosis.”
Pathological Demand Avoidance
20:40 to 22:44
Identify and understand pathological demand avoidance in children.
“even really little small ones like to put your shoes on or to brush your teeth or go get started on your homework?”
Understanding Resistance and Control
22:44 to 24:43
Explore how children's resistance to demands can be linked to a need for control.
“Because I will say this child then would go and have a great time.”
Show all 16 chapters
Navigating Picky Eating and ARFID
24:43 to 28:00
Learn about avoidant restrictive food intake disorder and its implications.
“curious if this is really anxiety coming out in this way.”
Understanding ARFID in Children
28:00 to 32:52
Learn about Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder (ARFID) and its complexities.
“Just the thought of mealtime is causing actual distress and going to a restaurant, whatever.”
Creative Spirit Days for Moms
33:40 to 40:59
Explore light-hearted themes for moms to make daily routines fun.
“But then tomorrow you should really try to get out of your pajamas, okay?”
Recognizing DSWPD in Kids
40:59 to 42:04
Learn about Delayed Sleep Wake Phase Disorder (DSWPD) and its effects on children.
“Speaking of things that might not be their fault after all, does your older kid, doesn't have to be your older kid, but this tends to happen with older kids, have a hard time waking up in the morning?”
Understanding Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder
42:04 to 47:26
Explore the implications of DSPD and how it affects daily life and parenting.
“I got a Fitbit for Christmas and my husband and I always joke because he is the guy who's like, I'm going to fall asleep.”
Understanding Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder
48:10 to 48:30
Explore the implications of DSPD and how it affects daily life and parenting.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Did you know Lululemon's iconic Flow Y bra also comes in tank top styles and even a dress? Now in new fun summer colors, Flow Y brings a racerback shape to streamline styles you can wear anywhere. Our buttery soft Nulu fabric feels nearly weightless with sweat wicking four-way stretch for comfort you'll want to keep on after practice. Flow freely on and off the mat with light support and refined design. Shop Flow Y now at lululemon.com.
0:30There's a name for that. What Fresh Hell, laughing in the face of motherhood. Don't judge me. With Margaret Aples and Amy Wilson. Hello, have you met a five-year-old? A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to.
0:46Amy Wilson:This is literally impossible. I might as well try to climb Mount Everest.
0:54Amy Wilson:Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Michelle laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Marguerite. And this is Amy. And this week we are going to talk about when typical behavior tips into something more and how that thing that you notice in your kid is a thing. And like, it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It just is a thing. And there's a name for that. So like there's different things that we go through with our kids. There's a name for that. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to panic about everything that you see happening, but it's good to know about this stuff. I feel like the things we're going to discuss today that are useful takeaways wherever your kid is on the spectrum.
1:31Amy Wilson:That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think two sides of it. One, we've talked about the idea of like ADD. Oh, yeah, everyone's ADD. Oh, yeah, I forgot my car keys. I'm ADD. This kind of over labeling of stuff. But then on the flip side, I think that understanding the labels that are out there can really help us feel better because we can sometimes feel like my kid is difficult, annoying, or bad when if you understand that that is actually a thing that happens to most kids the first week of school, let's say, it helps you see it in a context that helps you be part of the solution versus just this kid is driving me crazy.
2:11Right, right. You're not alone and then there's something you can do about it. Yes. And the way in was one of our favorite terms is after school restraint collapse, which is completely self-explanatory. We always try to give credit where credit is due. So Andrea Lowen Nair is a parenting educator from Ontario. She coined this term after school restraint collapse, and she used it to describe the kids who hold it together at school all day, managing the demands, the expectations, sit on your spot on the rug, finally come home to a place they feel safe. And then the stress or emotional load they've been carrying gets released in meltdowns or crying or emotional outbursts.
2:49This happens to literally every kid, right? But then it really happens to some kids.
2:54Amy Wilson:Yeah. And this is a very common discussion that people have with schools. My kid is so difficult. My kid is overwhelming me. I cannot handle this kid at all. And then you go in at school, they're like, oh, that's odd because Bobby's a little angel here all day. And so what you feel like is everything that's happening with Bobby is because I don't know how to deal with that and I'm a bad parent. Right. But Bobby is really understanding and maybe also Bobby functions better in a high structure environment, which is information that you can use. But also maybe Bobby is working really hard at school all day and then falling apart when they get home, which is maybe another explanation of what's going on.
3:38I've had more than one professional explain to me during my parenting career that the fact that your kid doesn't do something at home that they do at school or they do do something at school that they don't do at home is, in fact, a very good sign and not a sign of your inferior parenting, but a sign of their skills being there, just developing.
3:56Amy Wilson:Explain that a little more, because I think it's interesting. So the good is that they have the skills. They're just not ready to use them all day and they feel safer at home to not use them. That's right. This kind of leads Listen to our first example of is this a thing or is this just what the kid is? So say, does your kid have temper tantrums on the daily? And then in between is also not really in a good mood is pretty much a total crankster. Pretty much always, always. And that would include at school, they're cranky and at home, they're cranky. OK, like if at home, they're cranky, but at school, they're fine.
4:29Maybe they need more sleep at night. If at home, they're cranky 100 percent of the time. And then at school, they're also cranky like a lot of the time and lots of tantrums. There's a name for that. It's called disruptive mood dysregulation disorder. I'm not saying if your kid is a super cranky kid, you know, this month that that means your kid has DMDD and you have to rush to a child psychologist. There's a range. Right. But knowing about this and what this is and how to know if it's a thing you need to put some scaffolding and attention around. That's the point of this episode. Got it. Yeah.
5:00And everything exists on a spectrum.
5:02Amy Wilson:Yes. Yes. Yes, literally everything. Yes. And I will go to my sister-in-law, Christy Martin. You can look up her episode. We had her on. She used to use a phrase with me that I thought was very helpful. It's a problem when it's a problem for you or your kid. So that I felt like was a really good arbiter for me of, okay, is this a problem that's getting in the way? And this is a therapist. We'll talk about this too. I've talked a lot about having OCD. and sometimes my OCD is kind of almost in remission, like I'm touching two things a day and I'm just going through my day. It's not really a problem for me.
5:37Amy Wilson:I've got it kind of under control, but sometimes I'm like, I can barely function because I have to touch a million things and my anxiety is very high. Then it's a problem for me. It might always be there, but when is it a problem? And therefore, when do you react and what do you do? So let's go back to the DMD day, putting this framework around it. It's interesting to note that this came into place, this diagnosis of disruptive mood dysregulation disorder. It was actually put in place about 10 years ago because kids were being diagnosed as being bipolar because they just were having tantrums all the time.
6:12Right. And psychiatrists like that's not it. That's not what's happening here. There's sort of a specific childhood thing happening here. The main problem was the temper tantrums and just the irritability all the time. It didn't mean they were bipolar, but there's something happening. So that's where this disruptive mood dysregulation disorder came in in 2013. Is that something that only kids have? Yes, I believe so. That this is it's for children. Yeah, got it. So let's talk about the things that are typical developmentally appropriate behavior and when you might want to look into some more support.
6:44Every kid has occasional tantrums, especially toddlers and preschoolers. They're tired, they're hungry, they're in a new place, whatever. Those meltdowns tend to be short lived and they can recover from them. You know, 10 minutes later, they're playing. If your kid is having severe, intense outbursts that last a long time, the down mood really persists and the mood swings are getting in the way. They're a problem for the kid, right? They're getting in the way of friendships. They're getting in the way at school. They're getting in the way. Okay, you might need a little more support here. Irritability or frustration that's specific, like fighting with your brother over a toy, even if it's chronic, if it's specific.
7:21Okay, it's situational, right? Okay. chronic, like you're falling apart over, I don't like this kind of sandwich. And then 10 minutes later, also about something else. I think everything's making you super upset. That's a sign that this kid maybe is struggling.
7:33Amy Wilson:I mean, it reminds me of adult therapeutic diagnoses that depression is different than being sad sometimes. These are chronic and probably less attached. Again, we're not medical professionals, but we're talking from our own experience, the idea that depression is less tied maybe to circumstances, right? That like, you just this pervasive feeling of hopelessness or sadness is not, oh, I just lost my job. You might feel depressed about that, but that depression is a little bit more chronic and a little less attached to events. A sad thing happening. That's right. That's right. And then, And the last thing would be if it's causing significant distress for the kid, for you, whatever, these are things you need support.
8:23And again, I want to underline, like, I don't want people listening to be like, does my kid have DMDD? Like, if you know, you know, but you can look this up and the strategies and the things that they employ to help kids who are sort of chronically upset recover more quickly. There's useful things to explore here, even if your kid is just a little more cranky than the average person. You don't need a diagnosis to say like, OK, this is something my kid needs more support around. Yeah.
8:49Amy Wilson:And I think on the flip side, sometimes when you have a kid with a diagnosis and you try to explain your experience with that, a lot of people react and say all kids are like that. All kids have temper tantrums. All kids struggle with transitions. But, you know, enough kids to know that your kid is on a very specific end of the spectrum with these problems. And so, yes, I see a lot of people, I think in an attempt to be helpful, say, well, no kid wants to go to bed. OK, but if you're having a three hour fight every night at bedtime where your kid is throwing things and screaming at the top of their lungs for hours at a time, that is not on the normal spectrum.
9:33Amy Wilson:Right. Don't be talked out of that. Yeah. And maybe I shouldn't even use the word normal, but it's outside. It's causing a problem in the household. Right. Right. All kids fight with their siblings. Okay. Yeah. All kids do fight with their siblings, but something might be going on where you're like, this is just too much for us. Yeah. Is your kid very attuned to or worried about being rejected or criticized or socially excluded? Sometimes even perceiving that rejection where you can see pretty clearly that's not actually happening or that other kids wouldn't feel that way. Yeah, I can see this one.
10:08Amy Wilson:I definitely know like adults who have this as well. Yeah. So there's a name for that. It's called rejection sensitivity dysphoria. So this one was coined by Dr. William Dodson, who was in ADHD. He's one of the top two living specialists in ADHD, particularly in adults, which is interesting. So he studied ADHD more in adults, as you were just saying, for about 25 years. And he observed in his clinical work with ADHD adults that some individuals had extremely strong emotional reactions to rejection, even when it was minor or even just perceived. It causes intense emotional pain that can cause a big emotional reaction.
10:49It can cause a very rapid shift in mood. And it can be really hard to talk yourself out of or come down from if you have rejection sensitivity dysphoria. Yeah.
11:00Amy Wilson:And I think as an adult or a parent, we sometimes have the tendency to be like, forget about it. Don't worry about it. Amy, they were just having a party and it wasn't your friend group. It's not about you, but in a way that can be kind of dismissive of a feeling that it really doesn't matter whether or not the feeling your child is having makes sense. If they're feeling it, it's real. Right. Well, when this can tip into something that might need more support, for example, so many kids would be upset over being actually excluded. Right. Right. And it's going to happen to your kids sooner or later.
11:36The point is not like make sure your kid is never excluded. That won't work. But that's something that's upsetting. But one way that you can tell like, oh, this is something that this person or I as their parent might need some more support around is when they avoid the child or the adult with rejection sensitivity dysphoria will actually avoid activities, group activities or going places or meeting new people out of fear of rejection. Like they're proactively avoiding social contact because what if it doesn't go well? Right. And that can clearly get in the way, you know, with school, with self-esteem, things like that.
12:09That's somebody who might need more support.
12:12Amy Wilson:And developing a fear around, right, getting things wrong, this intense feeling of I have to act in a certain way to be accepted. Right. And in this case, it's like you could have a girl who's a people pleaser and maybe there's a little bit of an alpha who's kind of running the show when you're seeing your kid try too hard to please that person. Or you could have somebody with rejection sensitivity dysphoria who, you know, doesn't want to ever participate in the activities outside of school because what if people don't like them? Even when you can see people might be like, hey, hey, Brenda, I'm using a very 70s name.
12:47They're like, hi, Brenda. But Brenda's like, nobody likes me. Yeah. So it's something that is real. I've actually talked to a psychologist who this is what he studies. This is his thing, rejection sensitivity dysphoria. And it's a very interesting thing that people can get stuck in because it's so out of proportion sometimes to what's actually happening.
13:07Amy Wilson:Yeah. And I think it can be helpful for kids to be able to say like, this is a way that people feel sometimes and it comes from a thing. And it might even come from something kind of tangible, right? It might come from a fact that maybe a parent left when the child was young or whatever thing you can kind of tie it to, or even just having had the kind of seventh grade, like the whole school turned on you overnight for reasons you don't understand, but that really being able to connect the dots for kids to say, hey, you had this really bad experience that might be triggering for you this feeling when it is not necessarily what's going on in every situation.
13:54Right. Right. And that's helpful for a kid facing rejection, period. Right. When like, if they don't like you, you don't need them because they're not real friends doesn't really fit the bill. I think getting more into what is this fear of rejection and helping the kid in an age appropriate way. Think about it might be really helpful. Yeah. I have something else to say about that. We'll be right back. Summer is definitely a time when you want to be able to throw something on just before running out the door while also somehow looking like you definitely didn't just do that.
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18:52Amy Wilson:You're diagnosing this to say this is a normal human reaction to previous experiences. And then there's help to get us back to a place where you're not being constantly informed by previous experiences. I'll give you the example of PTSD. So I know people in my life who have PTSD and it is a lot of work to be like, listen, you spent X number of years in a war zone. And so your nervous system is primed to see every situation as heightened and fight or flight. And what if something bad happens? You're no longer in that situation, but you're still reacting as if you're in that situation. And so therefore, PTSD is not, oh, it's a fancy way of saying you had a hard time once.
19:43Amy Wilson:It's saying your operating system is doing this for a very specific reason that makes sense within the context of your experiences. But now that we know what it is, we can kind of focus in and say, let's address what's changed in your circumstances so that we're not reacting from a place that doesn't make sense for our circumstances. Right. It isn't like you have DMDD and so you get to behave however you want, whenever you want, kid. It's like, this is something that needs more scaffolding and support. And now let's look at it. Right. Somebody with PTSD, these just call it shell shock and send you home.
20:19It wasn't better back then. Right. Right. It still happened. They didn't do anything about it.
Read the full transcript
20:24Amy Wilson:Or you were just called a jerk. And it's like, well, actually, you're having a very specific physiological response to something that you need help dealing with. Here's one that I think almost all of us can identify with in some way, shape or form. Does your kid seem to have an extreme resistance to everyday demands or requests, even really little small ones like to put your shoes on or to brush your teeth or go get started on your homework? Does that sound familiar to you? I know this one, Amy. Can I guess? Yes. Yes. Pathological demand avoidance. Ding, ding, ding, ding. Pathological demand avoidance was first introduced in the 1980s by British psychologist Elizabeth Newsom.
21:05She worked with kids with autism in particular, and she noticed that some of them, so like William Dodson noticed some people with ADHD that he was already studying, had this specific rejection sensitivity. Elizabeth Newsom realized that some kids with autism she was working with, but not all had this extreme pathological demand avoidance. And yeah, I mean, I'm like, we're joking out a little bit because it's like, hello, have you met a five-year-old? You know, but it's a spectrum, right? And some kids are really going to be out the other end on that and it can get pretty hard to deal with.
21:38Amy Wilson:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of these things, again, every kid does them, but is it a problem? Right. Some kids, for you or the child or the way they function in school. Right. Well said. So all children resist demands sometimes. There's going to be some pushback. I don't want to go to bed. I don't want to like that's they're figuring out their willpower and their self-determination. That's normal. In pathological demand avoidance, every demand is resisted, even for things that they might want, which I thought was an interesting thing to highlight. They could want the piece of cake, but being told to sit down and have it, the demand avoidance is more present and appealing.
22:11Right.
22:11Amy Wilson:Yeah. And it's also it helps you. I feel like as a parent, I have a child who we referenced as Dr. No for several years, because whatever this child was asked, the answer was no. And eventually, I don't know how much we thought about it as pathological demand avoidance or anything specific, but we got better about how we approach certain things. And I got pretty clear at a certain point that no was not an acceptable answer. And so how can we get there? Because I will say this child then would go and have a great time. There was just something. I still use this quote all the time because at some point we were saying, do you want to do this?
22:54Amy Wilson:Do you want to do this? Do you want to do this? Trying to give all these options. And this child finally said, I don't want to do. And I think of that all the time. And sometimes I say it. I'm like, I don't want to do. And I get it. I understand it. But whether it was transitions or I'm happy where I am, I don't want to go to the pumpkin patch, even though I might kind of know everything for him was like the gym. I know it'll be good for me and I know I will feel good to have gone, but I don't want to go. I don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. And if the first answer is no to everything, but there's another answer behind it.
23:28They might really want to go to the playground. That's what they need. Some support around.
23:32Amy Wilson:And it's that moment of trying to become the detective of, is this a child who has felt very out of control in their lives or something has happened that has made them feel out of control. I'm thinking of somebody I know who's in this situation and, you know, something happened in their lives that was very out of control. And the kid now is very demanding of control constantly. And it's like, okay, we can put those two sides of this puzzle together and help the child hopefully understand that for them, the feeling of being out of control is much scarier than it is for maybe your typical child, because for them, the feeling of being out of control has had really difficult consequences.
24:20You know, another thing is that this is an iceberg, right? And if your kid resists every single thing and like just really lives in this place a lot of the time, it could also be anxiety. It doesn't have to have been brought on by a specific inciting incident or trauma or whatever. They could just be anxious. And this is how it's manifesting. And so if you have a kid who's just doing this all the time, it might be time to get curious if this is really anxiety coming out in this way.
24:46Amy Wilson:And I think also ages and stages is super interesting with this because a kid might become more demand avoidant as a teenager in a way that is developmentally appropriate, right? Like I'm not going to have mom tell me what to do every step of the way. I'm going to do it by myself. I don't need help with this. And you have the two-year-old who's like, I do it. I put shoes on. They want to be independent. And then you see it again as teenagers. Don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me. I know to everything that you say. And some of this stuff may be seasonal. And then some of this stuff, and I just had an experience with one of my kids where I would describe one of their behaviors as having been very much in remission, that this was something that transitions and new information were really hard as a young person.
25:37Amy Wilson:And as they're older, just the other day, I, not thinking about it because we haven't been dealing with it at all, kind of announced a major change of plans. And this kid got very upset. And I thought, oh, I forget now that this kid has, they're a cruise ship. They don't like tight turns. And so even though they're older and integrating things much better and having an easier time, I still have to remember that this child, who's not really a child anymore, still has a core issue with, I'm going to make a huge announcement out of the blue and expect everyone to move on. Right. And the correct support for that isn't more discipline.
26:17It isn't punishment. It isn't this. I'm talking for a younger kid. You're not going to punish a 17 year old for talking back. But it is about understanding routines. And in my house, it got a lot smoother when we realized the fewer transitions, the better. Like, no, let's not stop home to just use the bathroom and change our shoes real quick and then get back in the car. Like, no, we're going to bring what we need with us to the soccer game to go right to the birthday party. You can't transition in and out of the house. The more transitions, the more likely you're going to have meltdown. And so fewer transitions, right?
26:50And it's leading towards less yelling and fewer meltdowns and how you get there. Right. And you get there once you start to look at the strategies that are suggested for this, even if your kid doesn't have a diagnosis of pathological demand avoidance, some of the strategies that are suggested to support it might be really useful.
27:07Amy Wilson:And even for ourselves, like I am a person who the idea of stopping for gas is insurmountable for me. I just like, how could I possibly do that? I don't want to, God forbid, maybe I would run into someone. I would have to talk to someone. I have to stop my car. Like I'm on my way home. And then I can say to myself a little bit like, that is your crazy pathological demand avoidance head talking. It is actually not that hard to stop for gas. Or like sometimes I feel that way, like pack a suit. We had a family wedding this weekend. Pack an outfit for all five of us to go to a wedding. Like this is literally impossible.
27:40Amy Wilson:I might as well try to climb Mount Everest. It's like, okay, just remember that is a little bit of your brain telling you something that's not true. I really didn't want to. All right. This is one that's all over the news right now. If your kid is a picky eater, but like a really, really picky eater, like their list of acceptable of foods that they'll eat is getting shorter instead of longer. Just the thought of mealtime is causing actual distress and going to a restaurant, whatever. It's getting bigger and bigger. And the grandparents saying, well, he'll eat when he's hungry is not really playing out that way at all.
28:13There's a name for that. There's a name to consider anyway, which is called avoidant restrictive food intake disorder or ARFID.
28:21Amy Wilson:Yeah, this is something that you hear more and more about. And I will say a lot of these behaviors and terms are sometimes comorbid or come along with a diagnosis of ADHD or autism or other spectrum disorders. And ARFID is one. And let me tell you, if you have never been in it, you don't know what you don't know. Because I know kids in my life who's, they will only eat one brand of chicken nuggets that is hard to find. And you're seeing the Facebook posts. If you are ever in a supermarket and see this, please buy every box. I will pay you back. And you can look at it and be like, well, they're not going to starve to death.
29:05Amy Wilson:Why don't you just feed them something different? It is more complicated than that. And watch yourself if you have a kid who's a bit of a picky eater, but you figured out a way. I've never had a kid who had ARFID, but I have kids in my life who have. And it is much more than just they'll eat when they're hungry. They will not eat when they're hungry. And it also is really like most eating disorders. You're focusing on the food and the food is not really central to the problem. It's a feeling of control and anxiety. And the food is a symptom of something that's going on in terms of fear and anxiety and what is more integral to your personal control than putting things in your mouth.
29:53Amy Wilson:Like it's a very, and forcing kids to eat. And the good news is there's a lot of people who specialize in this and it can feel, I think, because people don't understand ARFID, it can feel very like, I must be a bad parent. And there going to be a lot of people who tell you that this is happening because you are a bad parent. Right. Right. There's a pretty clear cut sign if you're listening to this like, oh, they're pretty picky. If your kid has ARFID, they're going to start to drop off their growth curve. If they're actually not eating enough to meet their nutritional needs, your pediatrician is going to discuss this with you.
30:33There's a food aversion that is greater than the biological need to eat. It's pretty clear cut. Some kids are picky eaters. I had an extremely picky eater, but he was always on his growth chart. And so while I put a lot of attention into like, let's grow the list, let's food chaining, which is if your kid will eat a, oh my gosh, what do they call it? Like a wrap, you know, like a flatbread. Yes. That has tortilla. Yeah. A tortilla. Get your kid to eat like a little bit of cheese rolled up in a tortilla. Then the next time you try a little bit of turkey and cheese rolled up in a tortilla. And all of a sudden, like something rolled up in a tortilla becomes the acceptable food.
31:11Yeah, that worked in my case, because my kid did not need this extra level of professional support. But yeah, ARFID is more serious. There's signs of fatigue. Meals are very stressful. And sometimes I've seen this come into play too with the people I know in my life who have kids with ARFID that the kid has a concern about choking. Yeah. And it gets very serious. If this is something that sounds like you want to consider for your kid, then bring it up at your next pediatrician appointment and they'll either definitively reassure you or they'll help you get more help. I have one more thing to say about
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33:40Amy Wilson:and now if moms had spirit days from the what fresh health podcast it's monday moms and our theme is yoga pants and a sweatshirt day we figured we'd start it simple and kind of ease you into the whole concept tuesday's theme is at least you tried put on a smear of lipstick wear matching socks literally anything to make it look like at least you even tried Okay, Wednesday's theme is a little more advanced. It's put on a bra day. Okay, all right, fine. T-shirt bras count, I guess. Thursday's theme is pajama day. Stay in your pajamas all day. But then tomorrow you should really try to get out of your pajamas, okay?
34:23Promise? Just one day where you get out of your pajamas?
34:27Amy Wilson:TGIF, moms. It's Friday, and your theme today is wacky hair day. and it looks like you're all set already. Do you even own a hairbrush? This has been If Moms Had Spirit Days from the What Fresh Hell podcast.
34:46Amy Wilson:I think the very important is to take out of picky eating, ARFID, anything. You got to take the shame out of it because I know that what happens and I had a kid who did not have ARFID but was on the borderline, like a very picky eater. and then it was like we'll just give them vitamins i'm like okay you want to come to my house and try to get my kid to take a vitamin it's not get the chewy ones they're good they're easy for kids no like a flintstones vitamin i might as well just give my kid a plate of sushi you can say this is what's going on in our house this is what i need help from and if you're getting feedback that's like, just make them eat, just give them this vitamin.
35:29Amy Wilson:Because I remember even just having a picky eater that people would say like, then just make sure they're getting a vitamin every day. I mean, I could ground up a vitamin in a vanilla milkshake and this kid would take one sip and be like, this tastes weird. And I think it does tend to exist on the same line as sensory. Similarly, like you don't like a tag in your shirt. You can't stand that sensation. tastes are very strong for sensory kids. And so you might say like every kid likes Flintstones vitamins. I ate 20 of them one day when I was a kid. And you know, my mom thought that she had to take me to the hospital, like every kid loves them.
36:04Amy Wilson:Maybe not your kid. And it's take out the part of the story where you're like, I have to be very defensive and be like, okay, I'll get them to take a vitamin and then get home and think there's no way I'm getting my vitamin. Right. Right. I mean, and look, there's some medical providers who will be pretty old fashioned and they're thinking about this, too. And if you know there's more going on, then find another provider. You know the term ARFID now and you can Google that and you can say it. And this is what I love about these kind of diagnoses. I believe me, I have a little bit of thing like, oh, every kid's got a specialty.
36:36Amy Wilson:But it does give you terminology to say, this is not picky eating. This is ARFID. It's that thing. So don't tell me to go give my kid a Flintstones vitamin because my kid has ARFID and they will literally only eat one kind of thing. Here's one that I had not heard of before researching this episode. And I just thought it was interesting. Does your kid tend to zone out at stressful times, like underreact, really underreact? I had a kid who like we went to Disney World and they kind of just froze and acted like they weren't there while the parade was going by. And I'm like, are you having a good time or not?
37:08Amy Wilson:I'm going to give you an oldie locks alert back in my day. Cindy Brady on the game show. Oh, Cindy Brady on the game show. Right. When she's Cindy Brady bragged forever. She was going to be on TV. She was going to be on a game show. And she was like holding it over her siblings. And then she got on the game show and she just stared into space with a terrified face the whole time because she had dorsal vagal shutdown. Okay. This is sometimes even beyond freeze, like a kid might even fall asleep. In my fresh take with Genevieve Kingston, she wrote, Did I Ever Tell You? She talked about how her mom was sick when she was growing up.
37:45And then there were a couple times in her childhood when her parents would sit them down and she and her brother knew it was coming. We're going to have another talk about mom's illness and how it's progressed. And she said, I would react by running around the room and like singing and dancing and trying to stop it from happening by performing. And her brother would fall asleep. He would just be like night-night and fall asleep on the couch. That's dorsal vagal shutdown.
38:06Amy Wilson:Isn't that interesting? Humans are so, the brain is an amazing organ. God bless it. Yeah. So dorsal vagal shutdown is a state where the body and mind power down as a survival response. Your heart rate slows, your digestion slows, your energy drops. It can look like numbness or dissociation or even fainting. I was going to say, I believe the vagus nerve. I mean, I'm not a doctor, but I have a niece who is one. And so that makes me basically a doctor. but I know the vagus nerve is the nerve that controls. It's why you faint, right? Something hits your vagus nerve. Yeah, exactly. It's this nerve that runs down the whole left side of your body and it moves you from a sympathetic state into a parasympathetic state.
38:46And like you want the vagus nerve to be working well. It's kind of counterintuitive. If the vagus nerve is stimulated, you will relax. So the vagal nerve here is being shut down, I guess. And that's why. That is fascinating.
38:57Amy Wilson:That story about the kid running around and the kid falling asleep. And I think it's so fundamental, but I forget to do it all the time. Like just getting curious about what's going on with your kids. Yeah. And starting from the point of view of, okay, they're not giving you a hard time. They're having a hard time. And sometimes we've talked about this, that we had an event that happened when my children were little, that was just absolutely tragic and horrible. And it was so fascinating because we knew the impetus for it and because it was an outsized tragic event. Watching a group of second graders respond to it was fascinating.
39:40Amy Wilson:I mean, the kids who would make jokes about it, the kids who would cry all day, every day, the kids who would probably fall asleep. Like, your body is designed to protect you. And I think sometimes you might have that instinct to be like, I'm telling you your mother is sick. Wake up and stop singing and dancing. Both of those ways are absolutely insane and bonkers. but getting curious and I think it can be really hard because I'm not in the mood for it basically when I tell my kids something and I'm like oh that's right this is a transition and now we got to do the whole thing sometimes I'm just like can you just not right but the answer is no they cannot just right they cannot right this is something that's happening if you're somebody who's prone to dorsal vagal shutdown you're going to just go numb and dissociate at certain times It's not a problem unless they're doing it all day long at school and they kind of become unreachable for long periods of time.
40:37Like, you'll know, you'll know if this applies to your kid. This one is on here mostly is a thing that I found interesting that there's a name for something that most of us have seen a kid do at some point.
40:46Amy Wilson:And I think it gives you that perspective of am I yelling at Amy for having brown hair or am I yelling at Amy for like behavior she's choosing? And that's where I think with kids you could get a little off. Yeah. Speaking of things that might not be their fault after all, does your older kid, doesn't have to be your older kid, but this tends to happen with older kids, have a hard time waking up in the morning? Like a really hard time? Like you have to go up. This happened to me with one of my children. Like, I'm up, I'm up, I'm up. And then 10 minutes later, they're sound asleep on the floor. We had a war last week.
41:18Amy Wilson:Get up. Yeah. Why didn't you wake me up? I woke you up three times, literally saw you get out of bed and put your feet on the ground with your eyes open. And it was, I'm now late and you let me oversleep. And both of us were pretty mad. Yeah. And both of us were kind of right. Yeah. Well, don't be too mad because that might be delayed sleep wake phase disorder. I have this, I think. DSWPD. Sleep researcher Dr. Charles Seisler described it in the late 1970s, looking at circadian rhythms that suggested this is a circadian rhythm disorder where your biological clock is shifted later. He's talking about something a little specific here that somebody with DSWPD, delayed sleep wake phase disorder, can't fall asleep or don't get deeply asleep until like two in the morning.
42:06Amy Wilson:This is me, by the way. I got a Fitbit for Christmas and my husband and I always joke because he is the guy who's like, I'm going to fall asleep. In my life, I don't think I've ever fallen asleep in under 45 minutes. I just cannot fall asleep. Yeah. Yeah. And he then wakes up at four o 'clock in the morning and he's up for the day. If you woke me up at four o 'clock in the morning and we like come outside, there's a robber here. I could go out, call the police, send the robber away and then go back and fall right back asleep. And we have these watches now that track our sleep. Yes. And it's crazy.
42:43Amy Wilson:He falls asleep and he falls into deep sleep immediately. Three minutes. That's what I do. Right.
42:51Amy Wilson:It's like light sleep the whole night and then I fall into deep sleep at like 5 a.m. How about that? And so it actually made me feel better because, of course, being a person who doesn't wake up and start, you know, tap dancing in the morning, I've always been considered kind of lazy and like, oh, she hates, she loves to sleep. But I actually fall deeper asleep right before waking up. There you go. Listen, everybody, I have DSPD, DSWPD. DSPD slash DSWPD, please use the full name. Don't judge me. There you go. And it's kind of the perfect example. Like it's in the data on the watch, right? We don't have that concrete thing with some of the other things we've talked about today, but it's a thing.
43:33And then understanding what it is, there's probably something you can do about it. I don't know. And there's also ways you can accommodate it. Like, okay, shift your day earlier. We don't record at 8 a.m. for a reason. I mean, neither of us are ready at 8 a.m., but there's things you can do to make this work. And when it's a hard thing for your kid because they have to be on the bus at 6.50 a.m., it's not because they're lazy or a bad person. Get them a sleep tracker and see if this is happening.
43:59Amy Wilson:Two things I think that we've come to today. And one is that the value is knowledge. It's the enemy of shame to say, listen, you're not just a lazy slob. You actually fall into your deepest sleep right before waking up. So it is harder for you to get out of bed than other people. And then the other thing is to say diagnosis is different than behavior. You can change behavior, but it helps to change your behavior to know your diagnosis. So it doesn't mean like, oh, by the way, hon, you are going to now take care of the kids until noon because I need to sleep in. I have DSPD. I have DSMDY or whatever it was called.
44:44Amy Wilson:but knowledge is power and knowledge works against shame but then behavior you can still hold firm lines on okay yeah you may have pathological demand avoidance and there may be ways that we can structure the way we ask you to do things dr no to make them more appealing to you or make them less stressful and i have gotten much better about i have a kid and i'm do not make demands of them before 9 a.m. They're red, but just why bother? Right, right. Why? It's just going to cause a fight. Similarly, I will learn again and again that the hard left transition is not good for one of my kids. Doesn't mean I'm never going to do it because I am a human being who sometimes is like, hey, we're going to change this up.
45:30Amy Wilson:We're not going to go to that place. We're going to go to this place. But it doesn't mean that you get to not come. It doesn't mean that you get to have a 45-minute tantrum. It just means, and even in this conversation that I was having with this kid in the transition, it was, this is hard for you. This is why you're having this reaction. What are the strategies that we use when we feel this way? Because instead of just fighting of like, I can't believe you're always so difficult about this. And I can't believe that you just sprung this on me and fighting about the tip of the iceberg, we're now hopefully having a conversation, it doesn't mean it goes fine, but it does mean that we're able to be like, okay, we're actually talking about what's under the iceberg.
46:10Amy Wilson:We're not just fighting about the tip of the iceberg. I just wanted to say one thing too, that across everything we've talked about, the line that I'm trying to keep clear is that the line between like, this is something everybody does. And this is something that I, as a parent need more support, or maybe the kid needs more support or scaffolding, it's the impact on the daily life, the degree, the persistence, the impact on your daily life. If it's being run by pathological demand avoidance or restricted food intake, then get the support that you need. And you've talked about this as a mom who's had some chronic medical issues with your kids, that being that advocate, when you're getting back, All kids do this.
46:54Amy Wilson:They'll eat when they're hungry. That you can say, I'm actually going to go to someone who understands ARFID because I'm not going to keep having the same conversation with my pediatrician who says, just feed them the vitamins. I think that understanding these conditions can help you be a better medical advocate for your kid as well. Good thing we solved delayed sleep-wake phase disorder.
47:21Amy Wilson:It's not a problem. I definitely have that. I've self-diagnosed. I've gotten people. This is a great episode to share with people you know who might be struggling with some of these things with their kids to say, hey, I know you've been having this issue or just I found a lot of really interesting information in this episode. If so, you can just share it right from the app. You can send them to our website, whatfreshhealthpodcast.com, our Facebook group. We're everywhere. You know how to find us. Let someone else know about this episode because that's how we grow as a podcast. We would love that.
47:56Amy Wilson:And with that, we will talk to you next week. Thanks so much for listening.
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From the publisher
Is your kid extremely resistant to the simplest of requests? Or completely impossible to wake up in the morning? Or sure their peers don't like them, despite pretty clear evidence to the contrary?
All of these are extremely typical kid behaviors. All of these also have more intense manifestations—PDA, DSWPD, and RSD, respectively— which meet clinical definitions and which may require more concrete support, for both you and your kid.
In this episode, Amy and Margaret discuss the amorphous lines that often exist between typical child behavior and an issue that may need more attention and scaffolding.
From afterschool restraint collapse to ARFID, Amy and Margaret explore the moments when everyday challenges start to interfere with family life, friendships, or school—and what parents can do to respond from a place of understanding and clarity.
You’ll learn:
How certain behaviors can sometimes point to larger patterns.
The value of having names for behaviors—reducing shame, guiding next steps, and helping parents advocate for their kids.
Practical strategies parents can use at home to reduce stress, manage transitions, and support kids in ways that actually work.
If you’ve ever wondered, is this typical, or is it more?—this episode is for you.
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parenting podcast, kids behavior issues, child tantrums, picky eating help, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, disruptive mood dysregulation disorder, ARFID in kids, pathological demand avoidance, delayed sleep wake phase disorder, typical vs atypical child behavior, parenting strategies for behavior
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