In short
How to cope when multiple life changes hit at once, causing “change saturation” and “change fatigue,” and how to navigate them using the Change vs Transition distinction (William Bridges), plus acceptance strategies like “lean into the bite” (Pema Chödrön).
Guests
Margaret Abels and Amy Wilson (podcast hosts). No other guests appear.
Guest backgrounds
Amy Wilson is a former sitcom/Broadway/stage actress returning to the stage; she’s also a mother dealing with major transitions. Margaret Abels is a co-host and mother discussing parenting transitions and emotional responses.
Key claims
Too many concurrent changes can exceed personal capacity (change saturation), leading to quiet resistance, emotional spiraling, and eventual shutdown/explosion. External “change” (events) and internal “transition” (identity/emotion work) can be misaligned, creating overwhelm. Journaling/meditation and acceptance help.
Notable examples
Amy’s dog dying, youngest leaving for college, selling her NYC apartment, and rehearsing 42nd Street; graduation “event overload”; returning to a childhood home and realizing closure; “lean into the bite” after being bitten by a dog and applying it to emotional pain.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction to YOWI and Shopify
0:00 to 0:25
Learn about YOWI's focus and why Shopify was selected.
“Ich heiße Shannon Maldonado und bin die Gründerin von YOWI, einem Geschenkeladen, der auf Kunstwerke und handgefertigte Objekte spezialisiert ist.”
Setting the Stage for Change
0:48 to 1:13
Margaret and Amy introduce the theme of overwhelming changes in life.
“My fuel light is on and I'm screaming at somebody as I like shove McDonald's in my mouth.”
Listener Inspiration and Personal Reflections
1:13 to 2:14
Discussion about listener Deirdre's message and Amy's changes.
“This kind of was inspired by Deirdre, one of our listeners who wrote in on Facebook, to say, I just listened to the episode on nostalgia, and even though my kids are younger than yours, I get this nostalgia too.”
Amy's Big Life Changes
2:14 to 4:06
Amy shares exciting and challenging changes happening in her life.
“You think I know everything about Amy, but she's about to prove you wrong.”
Loss and Transition
4:06 to 5:09
Amy discusses the death of her dog and the upcoming empty nest transition.
“Also, if that was my only big change happening in my life, it would be fine.”
The Concept of Change Saturation
5:09 to 7:50
Exploration of change saturation and how it affects individuals.
“We decided to stay until our youngest went to college and then do something else.”
Change Fatigue in Personal Lives
7:50 to 8:20
Discussion about how change fatigue manifests in personal and corporate contexts.
“And that can lead to something called change fatigue.”
Stages of Change Fatigue
8:20 to 15:10
Amy and Margaret outline the stages of change fatigue and its effects.
“But change fatigue was first identified in the late 1990s in the corporate sector among corporate employees who are subject to endless restructuring.”
Stages of Change Fatigue
16:46 to 17:57
Amy and Margaret outline the stages of change fatigue and its effects.
“Being a mom means putting other people's feelings and needs above your own pretty much 100 % of the time.”
Navigating Transitions: Graduation and Change
18:08 to 20:05
Discuss the overwhelming changes that come with graduations and transitions.
“My kids' graduation was like 64 different events.”
Show all 24 chapters
Understanding the Bridges Transition Model
20:05 to 24:15
Learn about the phases of transition and how they differ from change.
“My phrase of the year has emerged and it plays very much into this.”
The Emotional Journey of Letting Go
24:15 to 28:00
Explore personal stories of letting go and the impact of change.
“This has really helped me because I am definitely somewhere between, I'm moving from endings to neutral zone, right?”
Reflections on Change and Closure
28:00 to 29:13
Discussing the emotional impact of change and the importance of closure in transitions.
“Well, because the transition at the time felt big And now you are fully in your new beginning has been in place for 30 years.”
Lessons from Pema Chodron
29:13 to 30:27
Exploring a quote from Pema Chodron about embracing change and uncertainty.
“quote was what made Margaret say, we got to talk about this.”
Understanding the Fear of Free Falling
30:27 to 31:45
The discussion centers on fear and the instinctual reactions to changes and uncertainties.
“It's literally a reflex when you have a baby.”
Understanding the Fear of Free Falling
33:08 to 34:10
The discussion centers on fear and the instinctual reactions to changes and uncertainties.
“Summer is definitely a time when you want to be able to throw something on just before running out the door while also somehow looking like you definitely didn't just do that.”
Understanding the Fear of Free Falling
34:17 to 34:27
The discussion centers on fear and the instinctual reactions to changes and uncertainties.
“That's quincequince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365-day returns.”
Kids' Perspectives on the Past
34:27 to 36:10
Hosts interview kids about their views on whether things were better in the past or present.
“Okay, today on the podcast we're talking about whether things were better then or if they're better now.”
Embracing the Pain of Change
36:10 to 37:46
Discussing personal experiences and the idea of 'leaning into the bite' during transitions.
“I was fine, but it was shocking and kind of painful.”
Navigating Emotions During Transitions
37:46 to 40:00
Exploring how to acknowledge and deal with emotions during significant life changes.
“And oh, yeah, that's what I should have done in that situation.”
Finding Meaning in Unexpected Outcomes
40:00 to 42:00
Reflecting on the metaphor of unexpected changes in life and their significance.
“And I, I like to fight injustices that I see.”
Navigating Change and Transition
42:00 to 45:56
Explore the emotional journey of dealing with unexpected life changes.
“And I'm going to stop working out entirely.”
Embracing the Process
45:56 to 46:54
Understanding the importance of acceptance and journaling during change.
“So realizing that like, oh, this is fine.”
The Challenge of Change
46:54 to 47:59
Discussing the difficulties of managing profound life changes.
“Well, I also want to use, we've done a couple of, like, most useful phrases ever, and I want to use one on you.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Ich heiße Shannon Maldonado und bin die Gründerin von YOWI, einem Geschenkeladen, der auf Kunstwerke und handgefertigte Objekte spezialisiert ist. Meine Wahl fiel auf Shopify, weil Shopify im Vergleich zu den anderen Plattformen, die ich getestet habe, mit am benutzerfreundlichsten war. Ich habe vor allem an die Zukunft gedacht. Alle Tools, die für die Auswertung von Verkaufszahlen wichtig sind, zum Beispiel von Lagerbeständen, findet man direkt im Dashboard. Starte jetzt einen kostenlosen Test auf shopify.com. You know what the Dalai Lama says, Amy? What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood.
0:37Heidi Hedquist:Talk about the bloom off the rose. With Margaret Abels and Amy Wilson. We are literally just rearranging the deck chairs in the Titanic. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to. My fuel light is on and I'm screaming at somebody as I like shove McDonald's in my mouth. Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today we're talking about what to do when it's too much change all at once. Amy, I'm soaking in it. I can't wait for this episode. Me too. Can't wait to compare notes. This kind of was inspired by Deirdre, one of our listeners who wrote in on Facebook, to say, I just listened to the episode on nostalgia, and even though my kids are younger than yours, I get this nostalgia too.
1:25Heidi Hedquist:The looking back has got me to look forward, and I am applying to graduate school to be a school counselor. Is this crazy? I will be 50 when done. Deirdre says, I would love an episode on midlife mom changes besides perimenopause. And I thought, oh my gosh, do I have change for you? We're soaking in it. We're soaking in it. I also just want to say to Deirdre, not crazy at all. 50 is young nowadays. The best time to apply would have been 20 years ago. The second best time to apply is today. Yeah. I really believe in that advice. Like it's fine. You'll be done. You'll love it. Go for it. I have current vectors of change that are insane.
2:04Heidi Hedquist:I am in, like, I don't know what astrological plane I'm on right now, but it's insane. And I'm going to walk you through them. And there's a few surprises even for Margaret on this list of changes I have going right now. Love to hear it. You think I know everything about Amy, but she's about to prove you wrong. Okay, so I'll start with the very good news, which is I have not done a musical in 30 years. I have not sung or danced on a stage in 30 years, and I'm going to do it this summer. I am starting rehearsals next week for a production of 42nd Street that you all can come see if you want to.
2:36Heidi Hedquist:I'm going to put the link in the show notes. I have a big part with songs and scenes and lines, and it's such exciting change, but that is a big change for me. It's really exciting. So for those of you who might not know and haven't listened to the podcast for a long time, in her first career, Amy was a sitcom actress, Broadway actress. stage actress. Like, that was her career. Yeah. And then you kind of soft retired, as we call it, the unwilling retirement. You're like, oops, I'm retired. Right. After two kids and two years, like, oops, right, there goes that. Right. You leave for a minute and then you come back and it's like the door is basically like the ice door through the wall in Game of Thrones.
3:16You think you're just stepping away for a minute and then you come back and it's like tumbleweeds drifting down the streets you used to roam und wistel-Ghost-Town Musik. Es ist einfach, es ist auf dich. Das war ein Veränderungsgerät,
3:29Heidi Hedquist:und dann all at once, als sie sagen. Ja, ich bin sehr ähnlich mit meinem Writing-Karier. Ich bin manchmal, wenn ich nach Hollywood bin, es ist ja, sie waren nicht zu sehen, sie waren nicht, nein, nein, bitte bleiben. So wie lange hat es sich seit du warst? Ich meine, wir machen ein Stage-Show, so du war in das? Aufstage in any way, ein Jahr. Ich habe aufstage hier und da, but musical truly since I just got out of college. This is not a comfort zone for me at all. I'm going to tap dance a little bit. And this is like a real theater, as they say, with equity actors playing the leads and somehow I get to do this.
4:03Heidi Hedquist:I'm so excited. So it's big change. It's good change. But that's not all. But wait, there's more. It slices, it dices. Also, if that was my only big change happening in my life, it would be fine. But my dog died two weeks ago, Marshmallow. Marsh, she died, guys. At 13, she was part of our family first. More than 13 years. Basically raised my kids with her. And it was time. And I can go into that another time. Because I have advice, I guess, about it. But it went pretty well. Because we could see it coming. And we were able to talk to the kids about it. And, you know, it happened. It's changed that we're still feeling.
4:37Heidi Hedquist:My youngest child is leaving home in August. And I'm about to become an empty nester. In like two months from today, basically. I mean, people talk about that being the hugest change of people's lives. So that's also happening. And then I'm selling my apartment and leaving New York City after 30 years. Guys, I'm learning this with you. Congratulations. You've been pondering this for quite a long time. Yes, and that's true. It's like, it's too much change all at once. You're right. It is something I've been thinking about. Basically, since the pandemic gave a lot of us reason to be like, why am I doing what am I doing?
5:08Heidi Hedquist:And wait a minute, I could be doing something else. We decided to stay until our youngest went to college and then do something else. So we're going to remain in the New York area, kind of. but we're going to sell our apartment and leave the place that I've lived for 30 years, which is one is a logistical challenge and one is a like transition, like life. So what I'm trying to say, and I'm tripping over my words, is it's too much change at once and I'm short circuiting a little bit with all the change. Yeah. First of all, lots of congratulations, but you're absolutely right. It's a ton. I mean, I think sometimes change happens when like a spouse dies or your house burns down.
5:48Like none of your changes are being forced upon you. I mean, I guess your child leaving home kind of is. But they have a dog dying. Yeah, dog dying is somewhere by choice and some not right. But most of them are like happy, like your daughter is launched and it's good. Like your changes are positive. And I think sometimes we feel conflicted that like, well, this is all good. So why do I feel so maybe sad, maybe overwhelmed, maybe whatever else by it?
6:15Heidi Hedquist:Yeah, it's the too much all at once. And I did when I was getting ready to do the research for this episode. As soon as I went to Google and I typed in too much, it automatically autofilled change at once. So I thought that was really interesting that this is like, as you said, well, you've been thinking about leaving New York. I have. But now that it's here, it's like, oh, I can't. This is way too much. I feel like I have too many trains leaving the station, you know, at different times and I can't handle it and it's too much. And I'm short circuiting a little bit and I think it's a human reaction.
6:46Heidi Hedquist:But you're right. Part of it is it's all happening at once. Well, it's not all happening at once. My dog died two weeks ago. My daughter is leaving two months from now. The apartment hasn't even been listed yet. Like I'm in a tumble dryer, but it's an era. It's within like the, you know, on a map, they're like, here's the zone of concern. and it's a big circle. It's all within the zone of concern at the same time. So I don't know that it matters that Marshy died two weeks ago and your daughter hasn't left. It's all happening in your zone of concern. So I learned about a concept of something called change saturation.
7:20Heidi Hedquist:It's really a business term. It's the specific point where the number of concurrent changes in a system exceeds the capacity of individuals to effectively adopt those changes. And the illustration is the cup. Think of a cup as your capacity for change. Yes. And a faucet being turned on is the amount of change. And there's sometimes more change than can fit in your cup. Yes. Sometimes you say we're soaking in it. Now I'm going to say my cup overfloweth with too much change all at once. I'm saturated. I'm saturated with change. Super saturated. Yes. Yeah. And that can lead to something called change fatigue.
7:56Heidi Hedquist:As I looked at this, all of the research about change and too much change and being okay with change is mostly in the business world. Pivoting. Pivoting, right. You're asking your employees to pivot and they're not doing it or they're not doing it well or they're not doing fast enough. And why is this such a problem? So a lot of this, like this change saturation, it was put in a corporate sense. It's certainly true in a personal sense, too. But change fatigue was first identified in the late 1990s in the corporate sector among corporate employees who are subject to endless restructuring. Yes. Like, now this person's your boss, now this, now that.
8:32Heidi Hedquist:And there's an author named Cassandra Worthy. She has a really good YouTube channel. We'll link to it in the show notes. And she wrote a book called Change Enthusiasm. And she says that change fatigue has three stages. Hit me. So the first stage is quiet resistance disguised as productivity. Amy, this you all over. This is me. You keep showing up, but you're numb and you're checked out. Definitely. My family members have been like, like, mom, what's up with you? Are you okay? And it's because I'm like, I feel a little frozen. I'm like, I'm good. I'm good. I am like going inward because like I'm feeling nothing.
9:09Heidi Hedquist:It's too much all at once. I'm just, I'm just going to kind of float through here. I was picturing there being an element of also disguised as productivity, like making a million lists. I can deal with this change by organizing my to-do list correctly. You're manifesting the change as writing a lot of things down, but you don't actually have control over anything that's changing. Right. You can't to-do list your way out of, oh my gosh, this is a lot. And the anticipation of it is actually making me more anxious. Yesterday morning, one of the things I had decided to do, and you're going to be my accountability partner on this.
9:45Heidi Hedquist:It's too much change at once. No, thank you. It's my third kid going to college and there's a lot that I have to do to help my youngest get ready to go and I've done this twice before so the one thing I do know that I can not overthink or think about really at all is what my kid is going to bring to college Have they ordered their comforter yet? What is this going to look like? What are you putting on your walls? Do you want a rug? Did you order your mini fridge? That really all of that is figureoutable after they get there or not at all and you bring one you think you know And it's easy for me to say, I know it is, but it's because I've done it before.
10:20Heidi Hedquist:So I have made this pact with myself that, okay, I'm going to make sure the health insurance waiver gets submitted, but I don't care. I don't care if you have the right kind of pillow, you know, when it's time to go. That's figureoutable. And it will help me with my kids to not be like, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? Because that is how I am, but I can let this part go. So anyway, yesterday I'm at breakfast with my spouse and my kid and my spouse starts. I'm like, now, have you thought about this? and the car's gonna be really packed and it might be, you know, there might not be enough room.
10:48Heidi Hedquist:So I'm thinking we should do this and trying to be helpful, but perseverating on a to-do list that's two months away because there's too much going on and let's nail something down right now, right? And I had to leave the room. I'm like, I can't listen to this conversation and not participate in it. And I promised myself I wouldn't do this. And so I have to leave so I don't get hit by shrapnel because of course the kid was like, leave me alone. It doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter. And so I had to actually accept that conversation. This takes us to our second stage of change fatigue, emotional spiraling.
11:19Resentment is growing. You're venting to friends or your podcast co-host. I believe we're there, right? This episode is stage two. Everyone expects me to do everything. And also, I mean, I think in a corporate structure, because I've seen this so many times, there's a certain randomness of change that can just feel like, what are we doing? I used to say this all the time at work, which made me realize that I can't actually have a real job. People would be like, should we launch this all at once or should we tease it for four months? I'm like, those are exactly equal choices. There's no difference between those two choices.
11:57They both have benefits. But this idea that we constantly have to change strategies. And I'm like, we are literally just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Not literally. But the feeling of change for change's sake is uniquely frustrating. You're more in actual change. I can see both sides of it. The emotional spiraling of like, we're going to change our system. It's like, oh my God, how about you make the coffee machine work? Stop changing, stop maximizing and optimizing because some stupid consultant told you to.
12:36Heidi Hedquist:Stop optimizing to make sure the change you're making is going to be the right change before you make it. That way madness lies, right? Should we get a new coffee maker? Right. Like we're just changing to try to make ourselves feel better about the fact that we're failing. We're going down in flames. Horrible feeling. And I mean, I have my first leaving for college, so I'm certainly in this place as well. Yeah. There's a lot of emotionality in our house that is just pinging around kind of like a ping pong ball. Yeah. in a thing, you know, like that makes ping pong balls ping. It's exactly what I meant.
13:11Heidi Hedquist:You drop a ping pong ball in it and it goes ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, all over the place. Not like a pinball machine. You mean like on the evening news when they like get the lottery numbers for today? And they're going to get sucked up? Yeah. That's the emotionality of my house right now. That's it. We hate each other's faces, but we don't know why. And we all hate everything about everyone. And we can't quite identify that either. You're experiencing change fatigue. Okay, so at some point, the emotional spiraling shifts into either shutdown or emotional explosion or both. I don't quite get how three is different from two.
13:45It's the action. Two is the feeling and three is the action.
13:48Heidi Hedquist:Yes, resentment is growing and then three is the action. You're right. You're snapping at everyone. You're looking for a way out. But you realize you're there. And so maybe I'm in stage three because it's like, yeah, I am not doing well. I have something to say about this after the break. Okay. Amy, you know I'm going to my big family wedding this summer and thanks to Nutrafol, I do not have to worry about grabbing my husband's phone to immediately delete most of the photos because my hair is going to be on point. I love it. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.
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15:16Heidi Hedquist:That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code LAUGHING. Amy, you know from talking to me on this podcast that my kids used to have daily fights about whose turn it was to scoop the cat litter. But now we have a Whisker Litter Robot, which does the scooping for you. And my house is stunningly peaceful, at least in regards to the cat box, Amy. It's amazing. The Whisker Litter Robot automatically cycles after every use and notifies you when the unit needs attention so you're not handling waste or scooping every day. Plus, the Whisker app gives you real-time notifications that help track your cat's behavior and routines.
16:00Do we watch our cat videos 900 times a night from the Whisker app? Yes, we do. Best of all, the Litter Robot smells way better than a conventional litter box because it's totally self-contained. It has made our daily life so much better, I cannot even tell you. And guess what? The cats like it too.
16:18Heidi Hedquist:Litter Robot bundles make it easy to get fully set up while saving you money. Find the Litter Robot that's right for you, whether you have one cat or five. The future is feline. Learn more about Whisker Litter Robot models and starter kits today. Take an additional$50 off bundles with code FRESH when you shop whisker.com slash FRESH. That's an additional$50 off bundles with code FRESH at whisker.com slash FRESH. Being a mom means putting other people's feelings and needs above your own pretty much 100 % of the time. But our own needs and feelings matter. They need attention. That's why there's therapy, which is something anyone can benefit from no matter what their current situation is.
17:02Heidi Hedquist:And that is why there's Rula. Rula provides in-network covered mental health care for most major insurance plans. The average copay for Rula patients is$15. And depending on your benefits, your co-pay could be$0 per session. Rula partners with a network of over 23 ,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find the right therapist based on your needs, preference, and state requirements. Rula is committed to helping you reach your therapy goals by carefully screening providers, monitoring quality of care, and supporting your progress throughout your journey With a diverse set of licensed, experienced professionals, they make it easy to get the care you need.
17:46Heidi Hedquist:Take it from us, therapy is worth it. And thousands of parents are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance and helping them and their families. And so can you. Visit Rula.com slash WFH to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash WFH. Especially some of the changes that we're experiencing, like graduations and transitions. My kids' graduation was like 64 different events. There was prom, there was awards night, there was come to the celebration of this, there was do your final presentation on that. I was so ready to be done. It just felt like, can we not beat this dead horse for one more second?
18:36Like, it just was so drawn out. And I don't know if, like, parents want that experience or it feels to schools like they have to give up one million chances to celebrate these events. But by the time of actual graduation, I was like, I get it. They're graduating. Like, I don't want to come to one more last band recital, last. Oh, I found it so vexing and exhausting and it did nothing for my emotional explosion.
19:08Heidi Hedquist:I think your mileage may vary because I kind of felt that way this time. And I have had the experience of like, I can't believe we only have the pasta dinner, the class night, the baccalaureate mass, the graduation and the lunch and afterwards left. Right. I was definitely on the like, no, more, more, more. And this time I wasn't. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But I think, right, some people want all these markers of change. I think it's a chance to let go slowly, and you're a little bit more in the rip the Band-Aid off already. And that is 100 % my personality. I remember at some point I was living with people.
19:43They made a change. They were like, I think we're going to need you to move out. They own the house I was renting. And two days later, I was like, I found a place. I'll be out by Friday. And they were stunned. Like, wait, we just mentioned this, but I want it done. The minute I know change is coming, I want it done right away. You want to be on the other side? Amy, thrilling news. What? My phrase of the year has emerged and it plays very much into this.
20:10Heidi Hedquist:It's only June. It's only June and the phrase of the year is here. It usually comes by about August, but this year, every year, a phrase of the year emerges. It bubbles up like the ping pong ball comes up. Yes. Okay, so what's on the ping pong ball?
20:33Heidi Hedquist:Okay, so I found out about something called the Bridges Transition Model. This blew my mind and it really is helping me in this moment. So it was created by somebody named William Bridges. He died a few years ago in 1991. He made the ultimate transition. He made the ultimate. That's right, he's transitioned. But in 1991, he wrote this book and then he ended up being like, this is what he did. He talked about his transition model to businesses everywhere to help business leaders understand their employees' emotional reactions to change. Like the boss is maybe the rip the bandaid off kind of person.
21:07Heidi Hedquist:And then we're all being replaced by AI. And then like, why are you upset? And so William Bridges looked at the stages of change and he came up with this transition model. And it makes so much sense because it, first of all, differentiates between change, the external event or the circumstances, and transition, the internal process of moving through that change. Like the change of the graduation, like, let's go, let's go, let's go. Like the actual date and they walked on the aisle and they turned their tassels. That's the change. And the transition is my child is leaving home to start their new lives.
21:43Heidi Hedquist:and your transition process is misaligned with the date of the graduation, you know, one side or another, and so is your kids, and they don't line up. So your processes of transition are completely separate. Like, oh, got it. That's why I'm like, it's too much change all at once, because even though I've been thinking I do want to live somewhere else once my kid leaves for college, now that it's here, you know, I'm behind in my transition emotionally. So what he says, a transition is a psychological process of disengagement from the old thing and then embracing and identifying oneself with a new identity.
Read the full transcript
22:17Heidi Hedquist:You're literally letting go of part of your identity and then taking on a new one. The transitions have three overlapping phases and a transition starts with an ending. It doesn't start at the beginning. It starts with the ending. That's the first phase of transition. It begins with the ending. You have to let go of familiar roles, relationships and routines. This stage surfaces emotions such as sadness, anxiety, resistance, confusion. I don't want to not have a dog anymore, but I do. Or like selling your home is a big one. Or selling your home, right. I remember when my parents told us they were selling the house we grew up in.
22:52It was like, how could you? What a betrayal. What? Right. All of our wonderful memories.
22:57Heidi Hedquist:And I'm sure by the time they told you, they were in a different process, right? You're at the beginning of the transition and they're halfway through it. No wonder we're at each other's throats. So yeah, your transition begins with endings. Then you move into the neutral zone, which is where the old is released, but the new isn't realized yet. That's where you are. You've graduated, but you haven't graduated, but not gone yet. We're going to leave, but we haven't left yet or decided where we're going yet. Or, you know, like we're in a giant limbo where the old, OK, we've made this decision, haven't realized it yet.
23:28Heidi Hedquist:You're in this neutral zone that's very disorienting. This is the phase I hate and I try to skip by being like, you want me to leave? I've got a new apartment tomorrow. I hate this phase, obviously. Yes, yes. Very true. Yeah, this phase is marked by vulnerability, but it also holds tremendous potential. So maybe you shouldn't rush through it. Not for me, babe. And sometimes you can't rush through it. Like maybe, you know, heaven forbid, but it could be like, we cannot sell this apartment. Like I could be in the neutral zone for longer than I want to be. Right. But then you're there. And then phase three, new beginnings.
23:59Heidi Hedquist:As clarity and confidence grow in the new place, This new apartment is kind of better than the old one. You adopt new behaviors, you commit to your new role, you move with purpose. And transition is not linear, right? And so it's, as we said, it's in a completely different place than the act of change. This has really helped me because I am definitely somewhere between, I'm moving from endings to neutral zone, right? I think I'm maybe not even in the neutral zone yet. I'm still moving from endings to neutral zone or in neutral zone for some of them. und ich habe been trying to solve will these changes go will I be happy in my new place will my kid be happy in their new place will this decision have been the right one and how can I make sure that that's true while I'm still in the neutral zone I have a long steering theory about this that is like tent poles that you have four corners of tent poles for a tent right?
24:52It's hardest when you're moving multiple tentpoles at the same time. Like if you only have one tentpole out of the ground, you're like, okay, we know where we live. We know what our jobs are. We know what our summer plans are, but we're not sure what date the kid's moving to college. It's like of the four, there's only one loose. And the times that are the hardest are when you're like, don't know where we're going to be living. You're kind of in it, right? Don't know, have a kid leaving for college, lost the dog. Like, you're starting to pull up too many tent poles at the same time. And it gives you this feeling of like, the tent is not secure.
25:34The house is not, it will fall. And I think that it can be helpful to think about like, what tent poles you still have. You're still married to David. You still have a relationship with your kids. It can feel very much like the tent poles are all up. The fundamental tent poles are still there. It's just the strings that pull the tent are out. Yeah. I feel like
26:00Heidi Hedquist:the tent is down so we can move to a new campsite, but it's down. Right now, I don't have any shelter. When I get to the new campsite, will I remember how the tent is set up because I'm not entirely sure that I know where those instructions are. That's kind of how I feel right now. Well, let me tell you what I did this past weekend. When I was probably in my 20s, my parents sold the house we'd grown up in our whole lives. And it was kind of a magical house. And I had a great childhood. So it was like the place. It was our place. And my parents sold it. And ever since then, I dream about the house all the time, like this magical, magical, magical house.
26:38und ich habe alle Fasen. Ich war so mit, das kann passieren. Ich war so attached zu den Haus. Dann würde ich bei, sie verwendet die Schrauben. Warum würde ich mit Blue Schrauben? Die Schrauben schrauben gut. Ich habe immer immer das große Attachung zu diesem Haus. Wenn ich nach Hause war, ich würde passen. Ich drohe bei einem Monat und der Haus war für sale. Ich war so, ich bin zu gehen, in die Haus. Ich bin zu gehen, in die Haus zu sehen. Es war so, in die Haus. Ich bin und ich bin, ich bin zu meinem Haus. And I'm like, we're going back to the most magical place ever, the place. And we walked in and like, it sounds corny, but it wasn't the place.
27:16It was like, oh, damn, it really was the people that was the place. It was someone else's furniture. And like, they changed a couple of things. And there was a weird closet that is gold wallpaper with giraffes and their stripes were like made of velvet. It was from people way before us. And we would stroke that. I mean, that was gone. Just everything that made the house the house, I thought I would be in there bawling, like, let me buy the place. I want to live in the place. And it just was interesting how far... And I mean, you might be like, you're a middle-aged woman with three kids of your own and you haven't lived there in 30 years.
27:55Like, of course, the ending felt fine to you, but I was shocked by how fine I felt.
28:01Heidi Hedquist:Well, because the transition at the time felt big And now you are fully in your new beginning has been in place for 30 years. But I still thought like that place was the most magical. And going back, I really was shocked. Like, oh, it's not the place. It wilded me out. I think sometimes that closure is very helpful. We once owned a home that we sold after renting it. The people lived in it for a year, rented it, and then they decided they wanted to buy it. They had been using our furniture. So move out day, I'm going to get the furniture and move it out. they had completely trashed this house which they now owned and our furniture which is a separate conversation but like every rug was ruined they had all these pats and stuff talk about the bloom off the rose right it was like oh and so I had so much closure because I was like oh it already isn't my house anymore like they bought it and they've kind of ruined it and I'm so ready to go but I think that it's nice to be able to see that if you can because you realize how far you've come Yeah, I just think it's a good lesson in like the things you're holding on to.
29:06They might have a different value than you think they do.
29:09Heidi Hedquist:Speaking of holding on to things, this whole we were talking about this off mic and this quote was what made Margaret say, we got to talk about this. Yeah, Amy sent me this quote and I was like, that's an episode. We got to talk about that. So Pema Chodron, she is a Buddhist nun. I love her. Sometimes I just put on like a YouTube of a lecture or she's amazing. Amazing. So she says, and all her books are called When Things Fall Apart, Comfortable with Uncertainty. Right. You know, there's probably one called When There's Too Much Change, that that's her wheelhouse. That's her lane. That's her lane.
29:40Heidi Hedquist:And she said, I remember very clearly at a time of enormous stress in my life reading Alice in Wonderland. Alice became a heroine for me because she fell into this hole and she just free fell. She didn't grab for the edges. She wasn't terrified trying to stop her fall. She just fell. und sie looked at things als sie went down dann wenn sie landet sie war in eine neue place sie nicht in eine neue place sie nicht in eine neue place sie nicht in eine neue place es ist so die Idee of falling und diese sind gut als Sie sagen gut things my youngest child beginning a new life me beginning a new life es all good oder Sie können Sie wie es gut even wenn es fühlt sich aber ich bin grabbing onto die Sides ein bisschen We can't all free fall all the time free falling is scary Your body has a strong instinctual reaction to grab for branches.
30:31It's literally a reflex when you have a baby. I can't remember the name of that reflex. The moral reflex. Moral reflex. They drop the baby to make sure that its arms go out to the side. It's just a sign of neurological functioning that you have a reflex that as you fall, you spread your arms to grab onto something. That's humanity and that's how it is. We are not built to free fall and be like, I'm loving this experience. We just took kids in June to an amusement park. And I was like, yeah, so much of it is that sensation of free falling. And it's thrilling because you know you're safe. And we love the feeling of free falling, but only if we know it's safe.
31:13And that's the part that you're struggling with. You don't know it's safe. So of course you're reaching for branches.
31:19Heidi Hedquist:you know but it is safe you're not falling out of a tree like your kid is going to college you're not falling out of a tree but they feel the same because there's uncertainty involved with both and we hate uncertainty so it feels scary and change is hard developmentally so i i agree i loved this quote i agree with this quote it's beautiful it's a beautiful mind shift but at the same time i don't look at it if it becomes the thing of like i should be more like this You physiologically cannot be in free fall and be like, I'm loving it. Yeah. All right. This brings me to my phrase of the year. We'll be right back.
31:53Heidi Hedquist:So I wore my new Zenni glasses the other night. My husband and my kids were immediately like, new glasses? Cute. Considering how much attention they usually pay to literally anything I wear, I knew my Zenni glasses are, as the kids no longer say, on fleek. The kids definitely no longer say that. Zenni ist ein Online-Eyewear-Shop mit prescription glasses, blue light lenses und, wenn du wie ich und nicht ein prescription hast, sogar sunglasses, all starten unter$30. Du gehst zu Zenni.com, du pick ein Frame, du upload your prescription und sie ship es zu dir. No appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter.
32:33Heidi Hedquist:Ich habe Zenni's Virtual Try-On feature zu machen, dass ich meine neue Fräume aussehen würde. Es war mir gut, es war 10 Sekunden. Und ich war, ja, Statement Tortoise Shell. Und wenn sie kam, sie waren genau das ich wollte. Same, ich bin ein Film. Wenn ihr Augenblick auf ein Refreschert ist, jetzt ist die Zeit. Go zu zenni.com und benutze PODCAST15 für 15 % off your first order. Die Styles sell out, so nicht so sitz. Das ist zenni.com slash PODCAST, Prono Code PODCAST15. Summer is definitely a time when you want to be able to throw something on just before running out the door while also somehow looking like you definitely didn't just do that.
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34:10Heidi Hedquist:Go to quince.com slash fresh for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quincequince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash fresh. Okay, today on the podcast we're talking about whether things were better then or if they're better now. So I figured we'd talk to some people from now to see what they think. Do you think things were better back in Mom's Day or now? I think they were better now. Why? Because back in the days you had to ride like horses and you had to like get new ones when it died. Do you think that Mom rode horses when she was young?
35:02Yeah. Um, I never had a horse in my life. Oh, my bad. But I didn't have video games when I was young. Yeah, so that's the problem. What else was different back in Mom's day? You didn't have good food like right now. Like, what's good food that I didn't have? I had Twinkies, dude. Did you have, like, pizza? I mean, I definitely had pizza. It wasn't that long ago. What do you think was different back in Mom's day? Uh, there were no buses and you had to walk everywhere. I mean, we had buses. Hmm? How old do you think Mom is? Forty-something. Do you know when I was your age, there weren't even such things as computers?
35:45Uh, yeah, I did. What do you think you would have done back in the day if you didn't have video games and TV? Biking, skateboarding, playing outside. I mean, that sounds kind of better than video games, doesn't it? Sort of. Thank you for talking to me about the olden times. You're welcome, Mom. So, Amy, I don't know if we discussed this, but I got bitten by a dog this year. No, I didn't know this. Lots of disclosure this episode. I was fine, but it was shocking and kind of painful. I was at a friend's house. The dog was agitated. Something about, I don't know, I have a cat. I don't know. Something about me was very agitating.
36:27This dog, it jumped up and bit me on the leg fairly hard, like broke the skin. Then, unrelatedly, I was recently in a situation with some kids who had some tendencies to bite. And I was looking up information to be like, if I get bitten, what are you supposed to do? How do you handle kids who bite? And the fascinating advice is lean into the bite. So if you get bitten and you pull away, you give a tiny sliver of flesh that's fun and easy to bite all the way down into. If you lean into the bite, the animal, child, whatever, can't actually shut their mouths. And so you don't get bitten as badly.
37:18Heidi Hedquist:Wow, wow, wow. Und so mein Phrase der Jahr in mir ist, lean into the bite. Because I've had some tough things happen this year. And lean into the bite is like, for you, lean into this change. Like lean into the pain of it. The more you try to protect yourself from it, the longer it takes. And the more you're giving it like nice, stretchy, thin skin to like bite into and really hurt you. And lean into the bite. I'm feeling it. I'm like, I keep thinking about it. And oh, yeah, that's what I should have done in that situation. Like if I'm feeling pain about my son leaving for college or I'm recognizing that we're in a soiling the nest phase where we're hitting each other's guts, like don't fight it and be like, you can't talk to me that way.
38:05Just lean in like, yeah, I can tell you're frustrated and upset. I am too. This is hard. That's leaning into the bite. Like you don't give them something to like hurt you with.
38:16Heidi Hedquist:Ja, und es nicht nur zu verändern, um die Erlösung zu verändern. Nein. Ich glaube, die Person stopt Sie mit Ihnen, aber es ist zu lassen, um Ihr zu kontrollieren, die Situation, die fühlt sich gefährlich. Und es ist immer gefährlich. Ja, Sie wollen Sie nicht, Sie wollen Sie, Sie wollen Sie, Sie wollen Sie, Sie wollen Sie, Sie wollen Sie, Sie sind gefährlich. Es ist nicht gefährlich, Sie sind zu nicht be sure, wo ich werde, Sie leben, Sie leben. Es ist einfach so, dass ich mich nicht. Ich denke, es ist painful. Die Metapher ist nicht bieten, aber es ist painful to change houses and to give up the house you've lived in.
38:47And that the more you try to be like, that's ridiculous, this isn't a problem, I'll make a list of all the things, I'll feel the pain and acknowledge the pain and lean into a lot of painful stuff is happening to me at the same time.
39:03Heidi Hedquist:That's perfect. Pema Chodron says, let go of the need to fix or change the uncomfortable moment, which doesn't mean denying that you're uncomfortable, right? Like that doesn't hurt at all. That's leaning into the bite. Like pulling away from the bite is, I don't want to believe I feel this. I don't. And it hurts you longer and worse. Leaning into the bite is, I don't have to justify any way I feel about all of these great, except for the dog dying, but challenging and hard things that are happening to me simultaneously. Right, right. And even, you know, who knows what is good and what is bad, that my dog dying, she had a great life, I'm about to be an empty nester with the ability to do whatever, whenever without an old dog to take care of, that there's, you know, there's an upside to that, too, if I choose to see it, that I am entering a new phase of my life.
39:56Heidi Hedquist:And this was part of it. And it's not all terrible. Yeah. And I, I like to fight injustices that I see. It's like kind of a whatever, that sounds stupid. But like, if something bad happens, I'm like, how can I fix it? How can I make it not have happened? How can I? And I'm trying to practice a little bit more. What is happening? What are the feelings? What's changeable and not changeable? Like, rather than being like, there's no pain in this situation, I'm going to move by Friday. I'm trying to spend more time leaning into the bite like, okay, this is the reality of the situation. What does that mean?
40:35And what choices do I want to make in this reality? And very Alcoholics Anonymous, like things I can change, things I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference, you know?
40:46Heidi Hedquist:That's right. And I think that as you're saying, like, don't deny your emotions, but also what are your emotions, right? You're short-tempered with your kid because there's grief about the upcoming transition, say. And if you are more in touch with the feelings underneath your own behavior as well as other people's, then you can just allow vulnerability to exist. So over and over, as I was looking for like, what works during big changey times to help was the advice to journal, which I'm like, oh, that's literally the last thing I have time to do. I have a move and I have this, is to start journaling every day.
41:20Heidi Hedquist:But of course, it's a great idea. You dump your racing mind onto the page. You know what the Dalai Lama says, Amy? What's that? People should meditate for an hour a day. And when people say, what about people who don't have time to meditate for an hour a day? He says, those people should meditate for two hours a day. Yes, me, exactly. Well, I don't think you should meditate for two hours a day, but it's like the more you don't have time for it, the more you need it. The more you have time for, like I'm into yoga. My husband is actually into meditation and it's essential right now to do that, right?
41:54Heidi Hedquist:It isn't like that should be, Often during big, very busy times of my life, the self-care is the first thing to go. I know where I'll find bandwidth. I'm going to sleep less. I'm going to eat protein bars only. And I'm going to stop working out entirely. So it's time for that right now. And I'm not going to call anybody or text anybody because I'm frantically packing 10 boxes that it's in those moments that going to yoga for an hour is more important. Going to bed an hour earlier is more important in making a real meal for myself instead of waiting until I'm like my fuel light is on and I'm screaming at somebody as I like shove McDonald's in my mouth, you know, is not take care of myself.
42:35Heidi Hedquist:You have to start at the bottom at times like this. It reminds me a little bit of a piece we've talked about by Emily Pearl Kingsley, who wrote Welcome to Holland. And it's about having a disabled child. I'm going to summarize it as quickly as I can. Having a baby is like buying a ticket to Italy. You're like, I'm looking forward to seeing the Trevi Fountain and eating all the pasta and gelato. And then when you have a child with special needs that you weren't expecting, it's like you get off the plane and you're in Holland. You're like, wait a minute. No, no, no. I'm supposed to be in Italy. Where's my pasta?
43:07Trevi Fountain. I have all these guidebooks. And they all describe Italy. And she also says, like, everyone you know is busy coming and going from Italy. They're all bragging about what a wonderful time they had there. And for the rest of your life, you'll say, yes, that's where I was supposed to go. That's what I had planned But if you spend your life mourning the fact that you didn't get to Italy You may never be able to enjoy the very special Very lovely thing that is Holland And I think that like sometimes This is part of it too That like But my house was the most magical It's leaning into the bite is also just Acceptance of like this is what's next This is what's coming Rather than like My life was better when my kids were all at home und mein Dach war alive und ich habe hier nicht gewusst.
43:53Was war es nicht.
43:54Heidi Hedquist:Oder sogar ich muss, ich muss, ich muss, ich furchtbar, für den Weg, weil das besser funktioniert. Das besser wäre ein guter Idee. Ich habe es, ich habe es, was es ist. Es ist einfach, was es ist, no matter how much, you know, you leave on the ground. Das Welcome to Holland-Holland-Tag, das occurs zu mir, es ist die Change-versus-Transition-Tag. Like, you're misaligned. If you have a baby with a disability or a birth defect that you weren't expecting, that's a change. The change is the event. The transition is the months and maybe years after that where you adjust to your new reality. And then you do get to a point where Holland's amazing.
44:35Heidi Hedquist:I can't believe I didn't want to be here in the first place. But that doesn't happen. That's misaligned with the event. Right. And the transition is like, there's a phase where you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't belong here. This isn't right. This is wrong. You're fighting it. Then there's a phase where you're like, okay, this is real. I'm really in Holland. I got to figure this out. Amanda Knox talked about this on the podcast that when she was in jail in Italy, her mom was like, we're fighting, we're fighting, we're fighting. And there was a point where she was like, I want you to stop talking about me getting out of jail.
45:07I have to figure out how to make this my life. und her mom kind of fell out a little bit because her mom was like, you're innocent I'm never going to stop fighting, but I think there is a point of that acceptance phase and then the kind of enjoyment phase comes afterwards I don't think you're going to enjoy Italian jail but you're going to live there
45:28Heidi Hedquist:Yeah, it's that transition isn't linear and she and her mom don't have to be matched up but conflict happens like, why aren't you more accepting of this? It's like, why would I accept that you're never coming home? Right. Nobody's a bad person in that, but they are in different places in their transition. They're misaligned. And yeah, so I guess that's what's going on with all the change in my life. Like, okay, I wasn't really ready. Being ready to let your dog go, making the decision to put your dog down was a place where we got on the same page, but we didn't start on the same page. So realizing that like, oh, this is fine.
46:00Heidi Hedquist:This is fine that my calendar says this and my emotions say that. And I am Julia Cameron in the artist's way. Yes. Which is a great book. It's about reclaiming your artist's self, which I'm also trying to do that right now in this exciting way, right? A lot of change. And journaling every day was what you do. Like the secret sauce is you get up and you do what she calls morning pages, which is three pages of just dumping your emotions onto the page. And you're not even gonna read them later. Like it's not for anybody. That's how you start the day. And when you do that, she says like, big changes start to happen in your life and it can work.
46:35Heidi Hedquist:Anyway, she talks about in that book about the change may start to feel a little much. And she says, like, you are at rest in a rapidly moving boat. Just lie down. You're moving fast, but you can lie down in this boat and just float. That's what's helping me right now, thinking about that. Like, yeah, the boat's moving fast, but nothing bad is happening. Well, I also want to use, we've done a couple of, like, most useful phrases ever, and I want to use one on you. One, this is as hard as you think it is. You are having a really hard time, a profound change. So there's no essay or phrase that's going to take that away.
47:13This is as hard as you think it is. But also, it's great to think about it and break it down. And where can we lean into the experience? Where can we journal, meditate? How are we getting through this experience and not doing the thing that I like to do, which is like, oh my God, there's pain in the gap. So I'm just going to sail right past it as fast as possible. And I'm going to Evel Knievel. I'm going to Evel Knievel right over it. And it's helpful for me because I have some big changes going on as well. Not quite as, you know, all at the same time as you, but your heart is hard, as we all like to say.
47:53My heart is hard as well. And I think this was a really useful conversation. Thanks. It certainly was for me. If you know someone who is going through a big change in their life or someone who would like to see Amy in 42nd Street, share this episode with them. All of the apps that you're listening on have a share feature. It's like a little button that says share this episode. Sometimes you got to hit the dot, dot, dot. Sometimes you got to hit the square. You got to look around a little bit. You can just send the whole episode to a friend and say, hey, I know you got a lot of change going on.
48:26Check this episode out. So if you enjoyed this episode, please do that. And with that, Amy, we're all behind you. We're buttressing you like outlying buttresses over here. I don't know about being your accountability partner, but I'll try. And with that, thanks so much for listening, everybody. Thanks, everybody.
48:54Thank you to Osea for sponsoring the show. Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum ist ein Multilayer, hyaluronic-powered Hydration für den ganzen Körper. Und jetzt haben wir eine spezielle discounten für Sie. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide mit dem Code FRESH at OseaMalibu.com Das ist Code FRESH at O-S-E-A Malibu.com
From the publisher
Have you ever felt like your life consisted of too many moving parts at the same time? In this episode, we explore why life tends to deliver too much change at once—and the difference between an actual change and the larger, more uncertain area of transition that both precedes and follows any big change.
We discuss:
Why even positive and worked-toward life transitions can feel overwhelming once they arrive
What "change saturation" and "change fatigue" look like
How your business partners, family members, or loved ones might be going through the same change, but on a very different transition timeline
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Our episode "Why We Avoid Uncertainty (And How That Gets In Our Way)"
Talkspace blog: How to Keep It Together When Everything Keeps Changing
North Highland blog: How Much Change is Too Much Change?
Cassandra Worthy: The 3 Stages Of Change Fatigue And How To Recover
Prosci blog: Bridges Transition Model Explained and Made Actionable
William Bridges Associates: William Bridges Bio
Cassandra Worthy: CHANGE ENTHUSIASM
Get tickets to see Amy in 42nd Street at the Sharon Playhouse, July 25th through August 9th! sharonplayhouse.org/42nd-street
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
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