In short
“Fix it or forget it” for parenting and household behavior—how to decide which behaviors to address immediately versus ignore, using categories like safety/danger/disrespect vs minor attention-seeking or whining.
Guests
Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson (hosts). No other guests appear in this episode; they reference Dr. Thomas Phelan (author of 1-2-3 Magic) and Child Mind.org as sources.
Key claims
- Balance reducing power struggles with setting clear boundaries.
- Use “target behaviors” (specific, observable, measurable) instead of personality judgments.
- Fix dangerous/aggressive/disrespectful behavior; ignore minor attention-seeking (whining in an annoying tone, silly noises, exaggerating stories) and brief tantrums once safe.
- Plan ahead with shorthand cues (e.g., “turtle”) and clear expectations; use neutral responses and brief planned ignoring.
Notable examples
- Teen outfit too revealing: fix; socks left by laundry basket: forget.
- Loud singing on a plane: fix; singing in your living room: forget.
- Child slamming door after an argument: forget.
- Whining for ice cream: forget.
- “What can I do to be helpful?” as a timed expectation phrase.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOListener Feedback and Mailbag
0:00 to 0:21
Discussion of listener feedback regarding homework challenges.
“That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now.”
Listener Feedback and Mailbag
0:44 to 1:55
Discussion of listener feedback regarding homework challenges.
“A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to.”
Introduction to Today's Topic
1:55 to 2:24
Amy and Margaret introduce the discussion on fixing or ignoring behaviors.
“What are we talking about this week, guys?”
Fix It or Forget It
2:24 to 6:15
Exploration of various behaviors and whether to fix or ignore them.
“And I want to get some guidelines because I think I tend to be an over investor, like an over fixer, an over fixer, an over jumper in her.”
Balancing Power Struggles and Rules
6:15 to 9:10
Discussion about balancing power struggles and establishing rules.
“But sometimes there's work to be done to get there.”
Setting Clear Expectations
9:10 to 12:20
The importance of establishing clear expectations for children's behavior.
“He wrote 123 Magic 20 years ago, and he talks about how there's...”
Handling Conflict in Parenting
12:20 to 14:02
Strategies for addressing conflict and managing behaviors in public.
“And so when we get into like, you're always so annoying when I'm cooking dinner, there's nothing to be done with that sentence.”
Setting Expectations with Teenagers
14:02 to 15:53
Learn strategies for setting behavioral expectations with teenagers during family gatherings.
“And the fix can be like, I need you to just take care of the table every time you're home and dinner's happening.”
Setting Expectations with Teenagers
15:56 to 16:22
Learn strategies for setting behavioral expectations with teenagers during family gatherings.
“You know how a mom's bag has everything?”
Identifying Behaviors to Address
16:22 to 23:59
Discuss which behaviors in children to fix and which to ignore, emphasizing safety and boundaries.
“From athletic stuff like a full court pickup game, swish, to athletic stuff like a half mile stroll.”
Show all 16 chapters
Managing Emotional Outbursts
24:00 to 28:00
Explore techniques for handling children's emotional outbursts and the importance of setting limits.
“If it doesn't earn your attention, it will probably stop.”
Managing Emotional Reactions with Kids
28:00 to 30:10
Learn strategies for managing emotions during conflicts with children.
“I definitely probably was just abandoning my children sometimes.”
Identifying Behavioral Triggers
31:35 to 37:30
Understand potential triggers for children's behavior and appropriate responses.
“Please support our show and tell them we sent you.”
Implementing Effective Consequences
37:30 to 42:00
Learn how to apply immediate and meaningful consequences for children's actions.
“stopping them in the middle of what they're doing to do something that you understand.”
Understanding Behavior and Consequences
42:00 to 45:19
Learn how to effectively address children's behaviors without damaging self-esteem.
“That's why negative attention can actually increase bad behavior over time.”
Understanding Behavior and Consequences
45:38 to 45:49
Learn how to effectively address children's behaviors without damaging self-esteem.
“Thank you to Osea for sponsoring the show.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Heidi Rose:Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com. Find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. I don't need to fucking embellish that often.
0:35What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. Turtle, turtle. With Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson. I just assumed you knew you had to keep your pants on during church the whole time. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to.
0:52Heidi Rose:You can't stop at the CVS on the way to your wife's birthday party because she'll be able to tell. Hey, everybody. Welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Amy. And this is Margaret. And we're not even going to tell you what this episode is about. We're diving straight into mailbag. Are you ready, Amy? I am. Lindsay was listening to our homework episode on Spotify. left as a comment on Spotify, which by the way, if you're listening on Spotify, comment right on the episode. We love to see it. She says, I have been in a constant battle with my eight-year-old over homework.
1:28The bribing, the rewarding, everything. This episode gave me a totally new perspective. Thank you for doing what you do. I listen on a regular basis and it really does help get me through the day. Lindsay, thanks so much for listening. And thank you, everybody. Go comment on your episode. We want to hear what you think. We want to hear your feedback. Yeah. You can do it on Spotify. You can come to our Facebook page. We love to hear what you're thinking about our episodes.
1:53Heidi Rose:We always love to hear from you. All right. What are we talking about this week, guys? I am coming in. Totally blind. Totally blind. Margaret had this one and I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about whatever we're talking about today. Amy, we're talking about fix it or forget it. Are these behaviors things you want to fix or ignore, basically? I would say with all behaviors, you kind of have a fork in the road. Are we going to dial in or dial out? And I think that this is actually something historically you have really helped me with on the podcast. And I was like, I want to do an episode.
2:23I want to think about it. I want to talk about it. And I want to get some guidelines because I think I tend to be an over investor, like an over fixer, an over fixer, an over jumper in her. We're not really talking about fixing as in problems. We're talking about behavior. here. So are we blank facing? We've talked a lot about blank facing. Blank facing is you just you have no reaction at all, right? You are not. As my pediatrician told me when I had a toddler, toddlers love a jack-in-the-box. They just want to see a response. So not a good response, not a bad response. They just want to see it pop.
3:01Heidi Rose:Yeah. And so do teenagers. And so do teenagers who are telling you they hate your face. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, let me just give you examples, and then I'm going to give you a thesis statement. I want to give you a bunch of examples of behavior. Now, in all of these things, we're going to be like, well, it depends. There are certain times yes, certain times no, there are blah, blah, blah, blah. Is it the 20th time? Just give me a speed round, fix it or forget it for these behaviors. I won't fix the questions. I'll just answer them. Your teen comes downstairs for school in an outfit that is too revealing, in your opinion.
3:37Fix it. Your husband leaves his socks right next to the laundry basket. I will try to forget it. Try to forget it. You will just put the socks in and then forget it. And deal with my feelings about it. Yes. Your husband for the third year in a row buys you an absolutely terrible holiday or birthday gift. Fix it. Correct. That is correct. Your friend is always 20 minutes late. I would fix it by fixing my own behavior. Meaning you would start showing up 20 minutes later. Yeah, I'd probably start showing up 25 minutes later. Love it. Your mother-in-law constantly, this is not your actual mother-in-law, Amy, someone's mother-in-law constantly makes comments about the state of your house, how you're raising your kids, just little asides.
4:24Heidi Rose:This is a tough one because I haven't experienced it, but I feel like I would feel the need to fix it and I'll be sure to do. Your child is singing loudly on a plane. Fix it. Your child is singing loudly in your living room. Forget it. Someone tells you a story and you know the details of that story are exaggerated. Oh, this is, I fix it and I should forget it. This is me. Got it. I love that. My husband fixed this. And let me tell you, as a story exaggerator, I'm not a fan of the fixer. Your kid and you have an argument. It is somewhat resolved. They go upstairs and slam their door. I forget that.
4:58Your kid is always the last one ready and makes the whole family late for school drop off for everything. I think I would fix that and thought of all the future people who are going to be annoyed. Your child is whining about wanting ice cream. Oh, who cares? Yeah, forget it. Forget it. Good. I figured we'd start with some examples because obviously these things get wide, right? Yes, in all of these examples, you might eventually have to fix your kid's singing because it's so annoying. And then there are spaces and places where you have to fix it. On a plane, your kid should be as quiet as possible.
5:37Right. And so if your kid is screaming the lyrics to let it go for three hours on an international flight, that's a problem. But if they're screaming the lyrics to let it go in their room for several hours, that's probably something you can ignore.
5:52Heidi Rose:Oh, yeah, you should ignore, even if I would say, like, forget it isn't as easy as said and done, right? Like, I should let my kid sing Let It Go for three hours in her room because she's enjoying herself, but I'm finding it really annoying. It's working my last nerve. So I think there's times when I'd be like, stop that, right? But that doesn't make that correct. I should let it happen, forget it. But sometimes there's work to be done to get there. I liked this idea. The goal of deciding which behaviors to address and which behaviors to ignore comes down to balancing. On the one side, reducing power struggles, constant yelling, fighting, and battling, right?
6:30Yeah. And on the other side, establishing rules and boundaries. So both of those things are important. And knowing which behavior falls into which category can be complicated.
6:43Heidi Rose:And it's complicated like on a plane. We've talked about parenting in public. Like I definitely want to be perceived as parenting well and not a parent who is a pushover and not a parent who would let their kid talk to me like that. Right. That I fix it with an awareness that I'm being perceived while I do that, which is also not great. But I mean, it's human. But also more realistically or more fairly, there are other people being affected by your kid's behavior. So if my kid is wiling out and rolling around the living room floor and screaming because I cut their sandwich wrong, I might very well be like, go have those big feels, queen.
7:20Like, I'm going to just be over here doing my own thing. But I would not do that in Target or on an airplane because that's not a time for learning when you're actively bothering other people. And so similarly, I think a teen who's like, whatever, mom, in the privacy of your own home, you might forget. But if they did that in front of my parents, I might not forget it. I might be like, watch how you speak to me. You know, there are factors that are not just about your own ego. Like, I think it is correct to not let a kid have a 45 minute meltdown in an aisle of Target that you might actually allow.
7:58And I probably have allowed within the confines of my home.
8:01Heidi Rose:Actually, and I'm thinking when you're saying the way you just said, watch how you speak to me in that very boundary held, calm, the end. I'm the parent, so I'm going to have the last word on this. Don't talk to me like that. I feel like that is forgetting it in a way. It is. Am I saying it right? You're not like, what do you, who do you think? You're not starting a fight. You're just saying, nope, it is. And you're slightly skipping ahead to some of our solutions and conclusions, but I think it's okay. I liked how you said that so much. I just really wanted to underline it. Like, well, if I could do that, I would just do that.
8:34One of the things that we're going to establish is addressing behavior in the moment and then addressing behavior beforehand. So if I have an expectation in place that I have discussed and reinforced with my kids that you have to speak to me politely and correctly at all times, then I have an easier time when that behavior happens in front of my in-laws or my parents where I can say, do not speak to me that way. I'm not starting the conversation for the first time. So a lot of this is going to be about establishing expectations for behavior that you then have shortcuts for.
9:17Heidi Rose:We had Dr. Thomas Phelan on the podcast recently. He wrote 123 Magic 20 years ago, and he talks about how there's... Your favorite book. I love this book. And so when I interviewed him, he said, well, the basic idea of one, two, three magic is behaviors you want to start and behaviors you want to stop. And his sort of evolved point of view is if you have a whiny kid, you talk about it ahead of time. And then you have a word, which he said, you know, turtle is the example. The example is your kid is very whiny and you say turtle and that's what it's going to be. And so when they're doing it in front of your parents, whatever, there's a shorthand.
9:46Heidi Rose:You've set the boundary ahead of time. Now I'm just reminding you, I'm not shaming you, but I'm reminding you, remember that boundary exists, can be effective. And I think if you're struggling with behaviors that happen out of the house, I recently, I won't go into it because I don't want to embarrass my kid, but I recently had one of these interactions where I was trying to correct a child in public. And what? What are you doing? What are you saying? Turtle, turtle. It's like, turtle. and it's like okay this is a thing that we need to go back and reinforce in our safe space so that when we're out in public we can remember that like when I'm like that that should have an immediate response I used to joke my mother had a we called it the claw my mother when we were misbehaving in the car she would just reach her hand behind the seat I'm acting it out you obviously can't see me but she would make her hand into like a claw shape you know like a like holding a baseball she was about to throw.
10:45Wolverine. And she would put that hand behind the divider. We had, what do you call it? Like couch seats in the car. It was a station wagon. She would put the claw back. And when you saw the claw, it was like, you better cut it out. Because if I actually have to turn around, then it's going to be on like donkey clump. It was like, you just saw the claw and you kind of knew that like, once the claw comes out, you don't want to know what's next.
11:11Heidi Rose:Yeah. You can have that in place. It takes work and it takes consistency, but you can't put that in place and then there is less conflict. This was an idea I do not think we've discussed on the podcast, which 10 years in is saying something. And I thought it was super interesting. You have to start with target behaviors. Target behaviors should be specific, observable, and measurable. So everyone should be able to agree that the behavior happened. Why? Because this keeps us out of, you're always so bad. Your attitude always stinks. Right? You're in a bad mood today, clearly. It's the difference between behavior and like personality.
11:54Like, why are you always such a jerk to me? We want to try to avoid sentences like that coming out of our mouths. You are always ruining everything. You are always so hyper. You may not jump on the couch. Those are different targets. Really, really important. And I was like, wow, is that useful, right? Because I think sometimes the conflict comes in. We never perceive other people the way we perceive ourselves, and they don't perceive themselves the way we perceive them. And so when we get into like, you're always so annoying when I'm cooking dinner, there's nothing to be done with that sentence.
12:33It's kind of hurtful, and there's no action, you know, I need you to stay out of the kitchen for half an hour every night when I'm cooking is behavior based. And the other one is personality kind of based. Does that make sense? It totally makes sense.
12:50Heidi Rose:Cause, and then once you get clear about that, cause that's useful for the person you're talking to. And it's also clear for yourself. Cause once the behavior, once it moves from like, Oh, my kids are so annoying while I'm making dinner to, I really need to be alone in the kitchen when the oven door might be open, then you can do things like put chips and salsa at the other end of the room. You can fix it. Right. And being a little bit more aware of like, what are the sources of conflict? And I tend to be the person who half an hour before the meal, I'm hot, I'm cranky. It's the end of the day.
13:25I burn the rolls and I forgot to make a salad. And I know that that is a space in which I am my worst self. And so it is the best thing possible to keep as few people in the kitchen with me as possible, including my spouse, who I'll be like, could you get some plates out? And my whole tone is like, you useless speck of dirt on the bottom of my shoe. And yes, I can work on my own behavior, but I can also identify that like this atmosphere is somewhere where bad behavior happens from me. And like, let's try to stem it at the source.
14:04Heidi Rose:Right. And the fix can be like, I need you to just take care of the table every time you're home and dinner's happening. I'll do this if you set the table. And it's a specific behavior, right? That would be like, why aren't you noticing? Right. Or I have we just had one. Where was I? And I said to all three of my kids, the only phrase I need to hear from you for the next two hours is what can I do to be helpful? That's the only phrase I want to hear out of your mouths. And this is maybe 45 minutes. Two hours is probably too long. For 45 minutes, the only phrase I need for me, my kids are teenagers.
14:40You know, they're not, I wouldn't maybe use this with a four-year-old, but this is the expectation for this place and time. And did that work? It does. It generally does. Yeah. It works. I think short times and, okay, we have Sunday dinner every Sunday night. Everyone arrives at 4.30. You guys should know by now that from 3 to 4.30, the phrase that pays in my house is, what can I do to be helpful? The phrase that pays. Like, let's look at the clock, guys. It's 4.15 and you're saying, hey, can you go to Walgreens and buy me more shampoo? No, you're using the wrong phrase. Yeah, that's great. I have another category that I think is going to be helpful that I'll share when we come back.
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16:35From athletic to athletic, Sierra's got it. So when we think about behaviors, are we fixing or forgetting? Fix behaviors that are dangerous, aggressive, disrespectful, actively ignore minor attention-seeking behavior. Those are like general categories. We'll go a little more specific. Behaviors to fix. Aggression, hitting, biting, throwing things. Any situation that is dangerous or a person might get hurt.
17:02Heidi Rose:Okay. Safety violations. Running into the street, touching hot stoves. I would argue maybe even like coming down in a bikini top and a miniskirt when heading off to the city. Like, I don't know. I think danger is safety. I'm worried about your safety. Yes. Could be wider than just like put your face in the burner. Yes. And there's a fix. There's like in that case, for example, young high school girls riding the subway in New York City often have a like extra large T-shirt that they wear. Like you got your subway clothes and you got your party clothes. For sure. And those are great discussions to have.
17:36And like, is it fair that you have to dress so that men won't bother you? Nah. But it's also realistic, so let's make some good decisions around it. Disrespect, defiance, backtalk, name-calling, refusing major instructions. This is a great time to set a limit. I think that this, for me, is a sometimes yes, sometimes no. One of the things that I think starts happening is what my mother, the therapist, would call boundary-seeking behavior. When I see a kid who's cursing at their mom, who's hitting their mom, who's screaming directly into their mom's face, or when I've dealt with a kid doing this, what I see is my mom's phrase, boundary-seeking behavior.
18:17That is a kid who's saying, where is the line? And they actually want to find it, which is counterintuitive.
18:23Heidi Rose:But I also think, don't you think there's a difference? I mean, with all these things, there's a range, right? And so I'm thinking of like an 18-year-old who's screaming at you when they're leaving for college in three days is maybe a forget it. A five-year-old who is running the household and cursing at her parents is probably a fix it. I agree. And you have really taught me this, honestly, doing the podcast. If there's plausible deniability that you would have heard it, ignore it. because I tend to have a little bit of the revolving door fight where like, and another thing. And I'm like, and you won't talk to me that way.
19:03And then the kid goes to the room and like they slam the door and I'm right back in it. Like, don't you slam the door. This is my house. You will respect it. Or they're kind of walking around. They're like, what did you say? Like, I can't. I'm like a dog with a bone at that point. And I have trouble letting it go. And also, I think these things scale over time. My kids did not curse when they were young. We would not allow cursing in the house. People, your mileage may vary. I know kids who cursed a lot, kids who curse not at all. Now my kids are older and they curse. Although my son, one of my high schoolers, spelled a curse word last night at the table and it just kind of delighted me.
19:41It was so cute. But because like that was a very firm rule that we had. But now, Now, first of all, my house has an annoying layout and really thin walls and doors. I can hear them in their rooms, on their phones, talking to friends. If they use curse words in their room, I'm not going up and being like, watch your language. I will say if they're walking around and cursing a lot, I will be like, oh, you know, like, again, like we have this behavior established. And when my kids were little, I did not allow their friends to curse in my house, which was a little more controversial.
20:14Heidi Rose:But they kind of knew. I was the square parent. It's good parenting, not because I think that nobody should ever curse, but I think kids need to learn that it's okay to talk like that in this space, but not that space. To this person, but not that person. Just like I had to teach my kids, they have grown up in an era where they don't really understand. We live in New York City. There's elevators everywhere. They are young enough to not really understand that a woman of a certain age will assume that she's going to board the elevator first and get off the elevator first. You can think that's right or wrong, but that's the assumption she's going to make.
20:50Heidi Rose:So rule with it is the expectations people will have. And she would really not like it if you cursed in a tiny space with her. So don't. So just don't do. I think kids need to have that awareness to be good people in the world. Well, we've talked and it might be time to do another episode about manners because manners are one of those things that's a little bit like. Who cares, oldies? Like, we're not into manners because manners can do a lot of class reinforcement. It can do a lot of, like, unwelcoming spaces. They keep people out. Right. You don't know what fork to use. A lot of manners are designed to keep people, like, from moving classes, literally.
21:29You know, like, if you go to a place setting with eight forks on one side and, you know, it's set up like, you know, Buckingham Palace, most people don't know what to do in that setting. how to use which fork. Here's the rule, guys. You go from the inside out. Isn't that right? No, you go from the outside in. You go from the outside in? I think so. Is that right? Yeah. All right. We obviously have to do a manners essay. I can't remember. That's next. Coming up. I don't need to fucking embellish that often. But yeah. But at the same time, like, our kids are now, like, dangerously close and some of ours are in, like, the work world and stuff.
22:03What is the expectation? You know, eye contact and a handshake and how far that gets you and writing a thank you note. So anyway, we'll do an episode on manners so we don't go too far down that. And then destruction of property, breaking toys, damaging walls. I think some of these are pretty obvious, right? Like we have to. And then I think there is a little bit, there was this controversial policy in New York City that did a lot of damage, but it was called broken windows. And the idea is that you fight crime on this mini level because once people see like trash on the street and broken windows in a building, they're like there are no rules in this place.
Read the full transcript
22:43Anything goes. Yep. Anything goes. And as a policing policy, not amazing. But I do think there is some aspect of like boundaries everywhere make life easier that you're not really negotiating a lot of stuff. It's sort of like mom's rules go. Having boundaries makes life easier, I think, is my overall philosophy. Having boundaries in multiple spaces. Right. Safer for everyone. But on the flip side, this is where I need a little more help. I think I'm very good at boundaries. Perhaps I'm overcorrected on boundaries. Ignoring, whining, complaining in an annoying tone, often done just to get a reaction.
23:22Turn away or stay neutral until they use a normal voice.
23:25Heidi Rose:I'm going to put under this like also the like, I don't even like that thing that the kids sitting at the table that's putting on a face because they don't like chocolate cake or whatever. See also teenagers who did you clean your room? Yes. So the information you have is they did clean their room, but they answered in a very annoying voice. Like, are we going to go in on the can we just go with great, great job? Or do we have to double down on don't ever speak to me in that tone again? In my case, yes, but I'm learning. Minor attention seeking, making silly noises, exaggerating stories. If it doesn't earn your attention, it will probably stop.
24:03We can probably extinguish a lot of these behaviors by not paying so much attention to it. Tantrum and fussing once safe. Crying or pouting out of frustration should be ignored briefly if the child is safe and not in deep distress. So this is a rule we had in our house. You can cry and you can fuss, but only in your own room. Okay.
24:24Heidi Rose:And this is once we know, like, nobody's bleeding, nobody's, like, there's not an actual injury or the upset is out of proportion to the inciting incident. This is, you cut my sandwich wrong. This is, I'm not getting my way. This is, I wanted Captain Crunch for dinner and you served steak. Right. This is not blank facing every child's emotional outburst. Right. This is planned ignoring also, which I think is important, that you have established we are not going to allow temper tantrums to ruin the main living area of our space. So once we have addressed the problem, if you are still feeling emotional, go on into your room and have your big feelings.
25:11Heidi Rose:I've seen a slightly different version of this among parents who are younger than me that I think can work. Like if the kid is like, I didn't want, I want to eat a Captain Crunch from dinner. I've seen parents who are, you know, 15, 20 years younger than me say, oh, okay, I know. Come on, sit next to me and like, and distract, distract and redirect. Like, okay, well, dinner's going to be ready soon. Do you want to read a story or do you want to do this? And effective redirection. It's not giving in. It's not, oh no, should we change what we're having for dinner? It's not that, but it is. It's like calling in instead of calling out.
25:44Yeah. Calling in. I think that's a good approach and I think it can work. I think what we're trying to avoid is like, oh, I know you're frustrated. Yeah. Like just feeding the flames.
25:56Heidi Rose:I hear you saying I'm so mad. Right. For 10 minutes. We're goofing on that. But I think that it can be effective to say what I hear you saying is that you're so frustrated that dinner is not what you hoped and you're having big feelings about that. And that's OK. but now we're five minutes into those feelings and it's starting to be disruptive and so come have your big feelings here on the couch or come have your big feelings you have to be able to read your kid and know like this is a safe emotion that they're expressing and i'm fine with them having it in another room this is not like my girlfriend broke up with me and i'm devastated obviously you have to calibrate what is like whining for the sake of whining and what is not.
26:45Heidi Rose:And it's also not like a two-year-old who cannot really completely manage their own emotions. Like they fall apart over the sandwich being cut the wrong way and they're out of control and it isn't like they can't turn on a dime. And so then they need more attention. You see what I'm saying? Like the two-year-old needs maybe the calling in the eight-year-old's like, okay, that's been enough of that. You can go to your room if you like. Yes. And I'm not, I mean, this is how I handled it and I don't even know that I'm recommending it. It might be, it's just when you feel yourself pouring gasoline on the fire, that's when it is time to like watch that behavior.
27:18And I have found that works really well to be like, I understand how you're feeling, but I'm not going to listen to it for 45 minutes. So be somewhere else. Then when it's over, calling them back in. Like that's when, when they first come out of the room, I'm so glad you're feeling better. Give me a hug. I love Like making sure that connection is not lost to whatever behavior you're trying to address or correct.
27:43Heidi Rose:Right. The point is a peaceful home. The point is less conflict and less wanting. It is in teaching lessons necessarily. There you go. Praise the positive. As soon as your child stops the behavior, give them immediate attention and praise. And then keep timing short. If you're planned ignoring behavior, keep it brief so that the child doesn't feel abandoned. I might've gotten this wrong. I definitely probably was just abandoning my children sometimes. And then for me, and this is something that we've talked about and you've helped me with, you will still have the emotions after expressing whatever you're dealing with with your kid.
28:19And your kid may still have those emotions. And so this is where, like, I'm frustrated with my kid. My kid is frustrated with me. We go to our corners and we come back. And it's so tempting to be like, one other thing I just want to say about that. Or, you know, I'm still frustrated with your horrible attitude. Let it go. This is the problem that I have, is being able to say, like, one of my kids and I came up with the phrase, let's put a checkmark next to that. And it means, like, we're putting that aside. Let's put a checkmark next to the fight that we had where I was mad at you about this and you were mad at me about that.
28:55Because otherwise, there's an old phrase, it's like a revolving door on an Irish bar. Like you just the fight ends, someone goes to leave and they're back in two seconds later and be like, I tell you, Patty O'Doyle. And they're like fighting again. This is a problem that I definitely have. Me too. All right. We'll be right back. You all know I am not a lotions and potions type. I want my skin care to be simple, clean and effective. So let me tell you about my latest secret, Osea. It's clean, seaweed powered skin care from the sea. Osea has been providing award-winning, best-selling skincare for 30 years.
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31:47And now, let's all lower our standards.
31:52Heidi Rose:From the What Fresh Hell podcast. Tired. Keeping your house clean. Wired. Loudly stating to anyone who enters your home that you are leaning into the new Pinterest decorating trend, we've been recently robbed. Not. Feeling bad that we're not cooking more often. Hot. Feeling proud of ourselves for stimulating the economy by ordering takeout four to five nights a week. We're job creators. Yuck. Having kids who play elite sports get top grades and do volunteer work in their free time in order to get into a top college. Yay. Having kids' interests you can share, especially when those interests include relaxing in the afternoon and sleeping in on the weekends.
32:35Heidi Rose:Out. Fantasizing about being with the hunky new lead from Bridgerton. in. Remembering that sometimes when you are hungry while scrolling Instagram in bed, you can yell out to your spouse and they will bring you a snack. This has been Let's All Lower Our Standards from the What Fresh Health podcast. OK, so another aspect of this that I thought was really interesting and helping with our solutions is and we talked about this briefly, what's triggering this behavior, right? The fights in the kitchen are triggered by the fact that I'm hot. I don't really love cooking. And I'm like annoyed that I'm cooking in the first place.
33:14And now I'm hot and sweaty and cooking.
33:15Heidi Rose:And the kids are probably hungry and wondering when dinner is, right? Right. They're around. Yeah. So let's talk about some potential triggers. I thought this was a really interesting list. This information that I'm sharing is from childmind.org, a guide to problem behavior, assuming your expectations are understood. And so I think sometimes this is the thing of like, I just assumed you knew you had to keep your pants on during church the whole time. Like whatever it is, especially with little kids, it's like the things kids don't know are legion and you have to remember what kids don't know. And then with older kids, I think expectations and conversations around like how much makeup are we wearing to school?
34:00What are we dressing like during the school day? When are we coming home? You sometimes forget that like you have to tell kids everything. They have to understand the expectations. And I think we can overcorrect for this, but I think understanding the why is also really important.
34:18Heidi Rose:It's like the old, you know, trope of kids saying, are we there yet? Are we there yet? Over and over again. They don't know. they're asking because they really don't know, you could say two hours or 20 minutes and it would either one would be a surprise to them and helping them get their arms around what's supposed to be happening and when. Of course, that would make literally anybody feel better. Yeah. And I think that it can be a little bit of morass. One of my children currently has blue hair. And the question was, can I dye my hair blue for the summer? I said, yes. Now school is starting again, has started, and the blue hair is still with us.
34:50And now I find we're having a debate about whether or not it's okay to have blue hair during the school year. And I'm finally just like, we made a deal and here's what the deal is. And now we have a box of oops color remover and we're going back to regular hair. But as part of that, we did have a conversation about my reasoning and maybe next year, this, that, and the other thing. So like, you got to do both a little bit. First of all, we made a deal and you're going to hold to that deal. But the reason for the deal is this and if you want to talk about the future. But right now, we had a contract and you're not going to break it.
35:27This is my favorite parenting rule ever, calling things out from a distance. Telling your children important instructions should be when you are face-to-face. Directions or corrections that are yelled at a distance are less likely to be remembered or understood. This was summed up to me very early by my husband's college roommate's wife, Kristen. saying no means standing up. It is an overarching rule. And my husband and I still say it to each other. And when you are trying to discipline fighting toddlers with your glass of wine from the couch, it's not going well. If you want to say no, you have to stand up.
36:07Because the flip side is when you're screaming from the couch, it telegraphs, I have no real interest in this. Like, I don't want to be involved. I don't care. And then they're more likely to ignore you. and then you're setting yourself up for problems.
36:21Heidi Rose:We're just setting us up for me yelling in five minutes when I finally do have to come in after I've yelled three times and you've ignored me. This is also a little bit like watch your no, a fight I've had with my husband many times. Do we really care that he's punching the Hello Kitty stuffy in the corner? Is that against the rules of our house, punching a stuffy? I get why you're saying no, because it's punch. Why are we saying no? Because once you say no, you have to enforce it. And sometimes, right, it can be ignored or it can be fixed in another way. We had extended family visiting once. We had two two-year-old cousins who didn't see each other very often playing with toys.
36:58Heidi Rose:Two-year-olds don't play together. They parallel play at best, right? So we've got almost immediately one cousin and another cousin fighting over one toy. There's 20 toys in the room, the one toy again. And now stop, right? There's a lot of that happening. The fix was you come over here with this truck and you come over here with that truck. Different rooms. The end. It took getting off the couch and finding a solution that was age appropriate. We can't talk two-year-olds into being different, right? We can just separate them. But sitting on the couch and yelling into either the room was not, as it turned out, the way to solve it.
37:29Another problem area, transitions, especially kids with ADHD, kids on the spectrum. Transitions are hard. stopping them in the middle of what they're doing to do something that you understand. I was reading a book actually about autism and it used the example of like somebody walks up to you in the park and you're reading J.D. Salinger and they slap the book out of your hand and you're like, we're going to the movies. Like you would be like, wait, what? Like I'm doing something I enjoy. Like I don't want to do your thing. And that that experience is often what kids are experiencing and watching transitions and also talking about it in advance.
38:05Because I have a kid who really struggles with transitions. And yes, I'm going to try to give you warnings, but sometimes transitions are going to happen like that. And I know you're going to be frustrated, but then you have a language to go to. This is an unexpected transition. We talked about how hard this is for you. Of course you're upset. Like doing the work behind the scenes so that when it happens in real life, you have language to talk about it. And then rapid fire questions or instructions, hard for kids also. Delivering a series like, go get your phone and get your shoes on and get in the car, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
38:37You forgot the thing in the middle and now you're in trouble. Not great. That will lead to conflict. It'll lead to you being mad that they didn't do the thing, right? And then they're... Yeah. So then we talk about adjusting the environment. That's getting out of the kitchen. Let's not try to have serious conversations in the 20 minutes before dinner hits the table. making expectations clear. Always a good idea. That's different for mom's funeral than it is for the playground. Providing countdowns for transitions, the duck, the timers. That we're going to be leaving in 10 minutes, right? We have to go to Nana's in 10 minutes.
39:08Counting it down. And then when possible, letting kids have a choice. Do you want to take a shower before dinner or after dinner? The shower is non-negotiable, but you still have a choice.
39:17Heidi Rose:Once you say these things like we're leaving for Nana's in 10 minutes, then you need to leave in like 15 to 20 minutes maybe, but not 90 minutes later. Like if you say things you don't mean to kids, if you don't stop that right now, we're never getting ice cream again, like that kind of stuff. Or if you say we're leaving now and then 45 minutes later, you're still talking in the kitchen, that's confusing and unclear to kids. And that's just going to lead to conflict. It's going to happen sometimes. I once saw a mom at the park yell at her kids, if you don't come right now, we're never going outside again.
39:46And I was like, lady, I love it for you. It's going to happen sometimes. But yes, the more consistent your behavior, the less they have to worry about it. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about immediate consequences. This is something with little kids and kids of all ages. You didn't eat your lunch today. Therefore, I'm not giving you an ice cream and dessert. Kids have completely lost the plot. Keeping the consequences quick and immediate. Kids cannot understand. Two days ago, you didn't eat the ice cream I bought you. Therefore, we're not having ice cream tonight. It's like their linear time does not work that way.
40:23Consequences that are natural consequences are kind of the best. Like you got in trouble with your bike and we're going to take the bike away for a week. Like this makes sense as a result of the behavior that you did.
40:38Heidi Rose:Yeah. I also think we've talked a lot about this, like leave room for grace and consequences that are accommodating. So I'm going to help you clean up your toys versus I'm going to sit here and stare at you and create more conflict about not cleaning up your toys. Like, let's do it together. Over consequence, it increases the likelihood that the behavior will repeat, which is confusing. Because it's a lot of attention. They're getting so much attention for not cleaning up their toys. once it becomes conflict that fuels kids and it's like this is the expected behavior sometimes right you can see kids always be like my mom's gonna kill me and it's like right because part of it is like i'm gonna do what i want i know i have to do it with half an hour of mom screaming and steam coming out of her ears but then that's going to extinguish and so it's like figuring out a way to make the behavior actually consequential versus the jack-in-the-box response of like, mom goes crazy, but then I get to do whatever.
41:40Right.
41:40Heidi Rose:That's what I'm saying about like, you have to be, when you say like, if you do this, we're not doing that, then you have to mean it. And then you have to follow through. Otherwise, you know, here goes mom again, not meaning anything she says. I'm not gonna ignore it. Children value attention from their parents in their life so much that any attention, positive or negative, is better than none. That's why negative attention can actually increase bad behavior over time. Responding to behaviors with criticism or yelling can be a negative reinforcement and then obviously can affect self-esteem. So also watch that the consequences are behavior based, not who you are as a person based.
42:18So the difference between like stop jumping on the couch is different than you're always ruining everything in the house with your craziness. Which I get that like not many of us are saying that, but like we've all had experiences of being like, oh, my God, you're always late. You're always holding us up. You're always making everyone late. It's 8.57. We told you to be here at 8.50. Like next time we're leaving without you, like telling the story related to the behavior and not who the person is.
42:45Heidi Rose:See also your husband. This episode was very helpful to me because like getting across how to be effective, how to stop problem behaviors more effectively means you'll be doing less of it and you'll be less frustrated. Yeah. And I think that's key. And it's not really, although we started this way, I think it's just backing up a little bit and being like, what is this behavior? Where is it coming from? How is it affecting us? I think there are fixes. Let's go back to husband buying bad gifts. I did on our third, maybe wedding anniversary or third Christmas, sit my husband down and say, listen, I don't care about stuff that much.
43:23I'm not like, you must get me a diamond bracelet. But when the gift just shows, I took six seconds to think about this and I ordered it a week out or I bought it from the gas station on the way home, that says to me, you don't care about me. I do everyone else's gifts. I do all the kids' birthdays. I do your birthday. I do your parents' birthdays. I take care of gifts for 35 people. You only have to take care of gifts for one person. And it hurts my feelings when I can see how little effort you made. That's a fix to me. And I have to say my husband has gotten much, much better at gift giving.
43:59Heidi Rose:You should teach an online class. And everybody I know would sign up for it. Like, you have to explain this to the person who hasn't had to give a lot of gifts in their life. That, no, you can't stop at the CVS on the way to your wife's birthday party because she'll be able to tell. Yes, forget the name Pajamagram, guys. It's not happening. No Pajamagrams. No weird earrings. Do you remember there used to be a store in like every airport that was called like Whisper on the Wind or something. And it just was like... Like door knocker earrings. Like wind chime earrings. like ostensibly from like the Hopi Indians, none of it was.
44:36Heidi Rose:Thank you. I got some stuff that was pretty clearly from the airport gift shop too. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's worth having conversations. And then I think it's worth asking, first of all, can this behavior be fixed? Yes. Your husband's bad gift giving can be fixed. And it's worth, you know, stopping the resentment and having the conversation. Right. But then am I just throwing gasoline on a fire? I'm looking at myself. I think we can stop fixing some of that behavior. Some of it you can forget. We will link to Child Mind, where so much of this great information came from. And with that, I think we solved it, Amy.
45:11No more bad behavior ever from anyone. I will immediately know whether to fix it or forget it. And if I'm fixing it, what to do about it. Love it. Are you following us on our Instagram? We put clips from the episodes, all sorts of fun stuff up there. Instagram.com forward slash whatfreshhelcast. See us there. That's my next goal is 10K on Instagram. We're getting there. It's all about the gram for Amy right now, guys. So come follow us there. And with that, thanks so much for listening. And we will talk to you next week. Thanks, everybody.
45:46Thank you to Osea for sponsoring the show. Go to oseamalibu.com and get 10 % off your first order with code FRESH. That's O-S-E-A Malibu dot com code fresh.
From the publisher
Which kid behaviors need to be addressed in the moment—and which are better ignored? We discuss when to fix behavior and when to let it go, from whining and backtalk to tantrums and other attention-seeking behavior.
Topics include:
How to reduce power struggles while still establishing clear rules and boundaries
Why target behaviors should be specific and observable
How to set expectations before challenging behavior happens
Practical strategies for handling difficult behavior in public
Knowing when a child's behavior is really a signal of an unmet need
This episode includes advice from the Child Mind Institute's Complete Guide to Managing Behavior Problems.
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What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson.
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