In short
Why kids develop “extremely intense interests” (obsessions) and why they’re usually developmentally normal and beneficial; when they may need support; how parents can expand interests while prioritizing connection.
Guests
Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson, hosts of What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. They share parenting stories and cite child-development research (including D.W. Winnicott; University of Virginia; studies from 2007/2008; Simon Baron-Cohen’s systemizing theory).
Key claims
30–40% of kids ages 2–6 have at least one intense interest; it’s often more common in boys. Interests can start with transitional/comfort objects, then shift to deep mastery and persistence (e.g., Pokemon, dinosaurs). These interests can improve knowledge, attention, and information processing; they often fade by middle school.
Notable examples
a child hoarding toys/yard signs in bed; kids carrying Hot Wheels; “princesses and pachycephalosaurus” party; kids obsessing over Pokemon/Spider-Man; parents using “meet them where they are” (e.g., Spider-Man movie discussion) and “food/social chaining” to branch interests.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOTopic Introduction: Kids' Obsessions
0:47 to 1:00
Exploring why kids get obsessed with things and the positive aspects of these obsessions.
“Today, we're going to talk about why kids get obsessed with the random stuff and why that's actually a good thing.”
Childhood Obsessions: Personal Stories
1:00 to 1:30
Margaret shares a story about her cousin's son's obsession with Mr. Potato Head.
“Potato Head's, I have a younger brother.”
Unique Childhood Interests
1:30 to 3:30
Discussion about various unique interests children have, including hoarding behaviors.
“This week's mailbag is from Mikey on Facebook.”
Transitional Objects in Childhood
3:30 to 6:10
Understanding the role of comfort objects in children's emotional development.
“Like he didn't want to put them down lest brother, my guess is.”
Intense Interests and Child Development
6:10 to 7:21
Exploring the concept of extremely intense interests in children and their frequency.
“There's something about the lovey, the stuffy, the comfort object that involves smell because we tried pretty quickly to get duplicates and they were always rejected.”
Gender Differences in Interests
7:21 to 7:58
Discussion on how boys and girls exhibit different patterns in their interests.
“So the extremely intense interest, you're right.”
The Fascination with Systems
7:58 to 12:32
Examining how children's interests often reflect a desire to understand systems and facts.
“interest i'm surprised almost it's only 30 to 40 because i feel like when i'm trying to meet other people's kids.”
Developmental Psychology of Interests
12:32 to 13:56
How intense interests and mastery play a role in children's development.
“The only exciting item under the tree was Pokemon cards.”
Developmental Psychology of Interests
15:30 to 16:22
How intense interests and mastery play a role in children's development.
“Oh, that's why we are so in love with Quince.”
Developmental Psychology of Interests
16:29 to 16:40
How intense interests and mastery play a role in children's development.
“That's Q-U-I-N-C-E, quince.com slash fresh for free shipping and 365-day returns.”
Show all 20 chapters
Developmental Psychology of Interests
16:43 to 17:53
How intense interests and mastery play a role in children's development.
“time, but our own needs and feelings matter.”
The Lifecycle of Kids' Obsessions
18:04 to 23:32
Discusses how children's obsessions fluctuate and their implications.
“I mean, at least maybe like neurotypical kids that there's like a middle school cutoff for this.”
When Obsessions Become a Concern
23:33 to 28:01
Explores when intense interests might require parental support.
“They're always great things, but times that they might need some support because that's certainly one of them, that they might have circumscribed interests.”
Discussing Kids' Interests
28:01 to 28:13
The moms delve into the importance of supporting children's unique interests.
“Our collective social message is conform.”
When Obsessions Become a Concern
28:13 to 29:28
Explores when intense interests might require parental support.
“Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.”
The People at School Plays
31:01 to 31:58
Exploring the quirky types of parents you meet at school plays.
“She might be praying that the lead breaks her ankle so her kid gets a shot.”
Expanding Children's Interests
31:59 to 39:44
Discussing strategies for helping kids broaden their intense interests.
“You know, I'm thinking about getting involved.”
The Value of Intense Interests
39:45 to 41:42
Understanding how extreme interests can be developmentally appropriate and beneficial.
“And I think of a kid who I know who had an intense interest that everybody was like, oh, this is what this kid's into.”
Closing Thoughts and Engagement
41:43 to 42:01
The hosts summarize the episode and encourage listener engagement with the show.
“Now, you know, everything you need to know about intense interests.”
Closing Thoughts and Engagement
42:51 to 43:11
The hosts summarize the episode and encourage listener engagement with the show.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. The agents wrote the copy and managed the timelines, while our human creative director made sure it all made sense. Easy. Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. Nothing mattered except for Pokemon. What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. Oh my god, he's talking about Spider-Man again. With Margaret Ables. And Amy Wilson. I want to sit at the cool kids table and my kids are the cool kids. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to. It's okay, your yard sign is there and you're going to make it until morning.
0:46Hello everyone and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're going to talk about why kids get obsessed with the random stuff and why that's actually a good thing.
1:00Amy Wilson:We were talking on a recent episode about my cousin's son who had to have Mr. Potato Head's right arm at all times. Yes, yes. So I didn't mean this. Yeah, kids and obsessions. Mr. Potato Head's, I have a younger brother. Sorry, I'm not going to tell this story. His thing when he was little was a catalog of religious articles, like little, you know, rosaries and pins that have St. Joseph on them or whatever. He would, in his crib, pour over this catalog of religious articles and murmur to himself about his favorites. I absolutely love that. Let's do mailbag. All right. I can I can top it. We've got a good mailbag.
1:33Oh, yes. Wait a minute. Time for mailbag. Wait. Wait. Yeah. Yeah. Check the mailbag. Amy and Margaret, look and see. This week's mailbag is from Mikey on Facebook. She says, It was Margaret's description of elf sex that got me to read A Court of Thorns and Roses. It got me back into reading, and I feel more like my old self, the one before kids, the one who loved to read. I listen to this podcast because it feels like being with thoughtful, funny friends who care about their kids and want mine to thrive, too. I've taken so many gems from your stories and research. Most of all, you make me laugh.
2:11Thank you.
2:12Amy Wilson:Amazing books. It's fairies, right? It's not elves, it's fairies? It's not elves. It turns out it's fairies. We know that. We already know that. And then I got into the Dragon Riders next, which is Iron Flame or something like that. Everyone knows what I'm talking about. There's the elf sex and then there's the Dragon Riders sex. And yeah, I've really lost reading. Right now I'm in one of those seasons where I just, I don't know, having trouble reading. But right now I'm reading Heartwood. It's about a woman who gets lost on the Appalachian Trail. You would like it. Heartwood. I think it's called.
2:45Amy Wilson:Google woman who gets lost in the Appalachian Trail book. It's an easy read. I'm enjoying it. I mean, it's deep, but easy. It occurs to me that what we're trying to recapture is exactly this sort of childlike feeling of I can think about, talk about, be immersed in Pokemon six hours a day. And the more I do it, the more I like it. We're kind of trying to recapture a little bit of that excitement. Yeah, there's something about, so one of my children was obsessed with the idea of hoarding all the toys. I think he was the second child and was worried somehow that things were not his own. And he would carry around piles of toys all the time.
3:30Amy Wilson:Like he didn't want to put them down lest brother, my guess is. Yeah, brother, yeah. But it became so over the top that his bed, he was in the top bunk, was filled with toys. Like how he could get in there and sleep, I don't know. And you may be asking yourself, like, why weren't you doing anything about this? But I was pregnant with my third, had two kids under three. I had bigger problems. But he would, when we went to Nana's house, he would have a tray, like a wooden tray for serving drinks. And it was full of Folgers, empty Folgers plastic coffee cans. And inside that filled with little toys.
4:09Amy Wilson:And he would carry around this serving tray. Like he was hoarding all the toys all the time. And at one point we I went up and looked at his bed and he had somehow gotten a yard sign for a like state Senate election. And it was in his bed of yardage, two stakes. I can't remember. I should have written down the guy's name because it was like Murphy for Senate or something. The guy didn't win, maybe because there was a two-year-old stealing his yard size. But this went on for years, this absolutely insane hoarding of toys. And it was fascinating and adorable. I believe that psychologist D.W. Winnicott would have called those items comfort objects.
4:50This kid had a lot of comfort objects.
4:53Amy Wilson:It's funny because this is a kid who never had a super, both my other kids had a nameable object, Blankie and Blue Bear. They went everywhere with them. But this middle kid was more about volume. Yeah, options. He wanted options. I had two kids. He just wanted all of the things in his control and possession at all times. I also had two kids with Blankies. That was their transitional objects. Those are also called. And then my middle kid, same thing. It wasn't volume, but he needed like a Hot Wheels car truck bus in each fist at all times, like when we were going somewhere, including during the Christmas card photo shoot.
5:30And eventually we were like, whatever, he can hold the cards. This is who he is. He holds cards in his fists all the time. So double fisting Hot Wheels until kindergarten. And then, you know, that's it. So anyway, that's the first kind of obsession that we see most of our kids have is transitional objects, a blanket stuffed animal, piece of fabric. And this psychologist, D.W. Winnicott, said these were transitional objects because they bridge a child's inner emotional world and the external world. They provide continuity of experience when your caregiver drops you off at preschool or when you're in bed at night and your caregiver isn't there.
6:06It's okay. Your yard sign is there and you're going to make it until morning.
6:09Amy Wilson:Yeah, the yard sign was definitely a little bit later, I'm remembering. There's something about the lovey, the stuffy, the comfort object that involves smell because we tried pretty quickly to get duplicates and they were always rejected. It didn't have a stink on it. To rotate them. Yeah, we had multiples. But yeah, you had to constantly be moving them through. So you had an option. And I noticed with one of my kids, whenever the object came by, sometimes they would just take a hit off of the smell. Just to huff it. Huff it and then move on with your day. But it was like, yeah, that smell is still there.
6:47Amy Wilson:It's like there's something that goes really biologically deep about this that's adorable and charming. So that's like a, you know, two to four or five kind of thing, transitional object. And then they move into not all kids, but very many kids develop an intense interest. Sometimes it's called an extremely intense interest. About 30 to 40 percent of kids between the ages of two and six have at least one intense interest that lasts months or years. And I bet this rings a bell to you, too. For sure. And kids on the spectrum even more so, right? Well, yes. So the extremely intense interest, you're right.
7:24In the case of autism spectrum disorder, it's more often called restricted and repetitive behaviors, RRBs, that they're observed. The RRBs. The old RRBs. But the point is that these behaviors are also very much observed in neurotypical children. it is maybe the degree of depth and focus that is an autism spectrum like how intense how insistent persistent consistent it is might be more true for a kid on the spectrum than a kid not on the spectrum but lots and lots of kids have this very typical developmental stage of an extremely intense
8:02Amy Wilson:interest i'm surprised almost it's only 30 to 40 because i feel like when i'm trying to meet other people's kids. I'm like, what are they into? Because you can almost always answer that question, you know? Right. And it's always so funny. So there was a study at the University of Virginia that looked at like why this happens with the interest. And there's a bunch of things that are interesting. But my favorite one was that per this study, parents and caregivers were generally like, we have no idea why he likes plastic spoons and carries them everywhere he goes. that it just happens. And that's why that's such a fun question to ask.
8:37I ask people that question too. What's this thing? What's her thing? Because there always is something. Yeah. And it's like soy sauce packets. I don't know. I don't know why. It's just so funny that they love what they love.
8:49Amy Wilson:We have a picture from my four-year-old's birthday party. And the theme of the party was princesses and pachycephalosaurus. That was two reigning interests of the day. And it's this group of seven little girls all four years old, all in the kind of over-the-top ridiculous tool princess dresses and like dinosaur hardhats and some sort of hammer that they were going to use to, you know, uncover whatever fossil game we had invented. Oh, they're anthropologists? Princesses and prachycephalosauruses. No, they're paleontologists. They're paleontologists. How dare you? Sorry. So this University of Virginia, here is how they define an extremely intense interest based on the kids between two and six that they studied.
9:32Okay. Not every kid had an intense interest. Only about 30 to 40 percent have. Some parents might be like, yeah, I don't know. They just like toys. But of the ones who did, 88 percent were male.
9:43Amy Wilson:I was going to say that earlier, that I think this is more boys than girls. I feel like boys especially are the, I can name every single dinosaur. I can tell you every player who's ever played for the Mets. Right. And you know who's written about that? Simon Baron Cohen, who is the guy who plays Borat? It's his brother. Is it his brother? I think it's his uncle. No, it's his brother. Yeah. Yeah. I know that he's a child development guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he argues that males are systemizers who like to focus narrowly on analyzing, exploring, and understanding systems. Like little boys love a system.
10:20And that girls wouldn't. Now, he might say something different. This is 30-year-old research. But yes, that's what's happening there. But let's go back to the extremely intense interest. Okay, so it's more often boys than girls. Yes, that's borne out in the numbers. They can be relatively long lasting.
10:34Amy Wilson:Okay. Shown in several different contexts. I mean, I know somebody who's really into squishy toys. And yes, that love for squishy toys shows up in many different contexts because the squishy toys come with them everywhere that they go. But what does many different contexts mean? Home. At home, you're talking about dinosaurs. You go to your friend's house. Do you have any dinosaurs I can play with? Got it. And in preschool, you're like, I'm in the dinosaur car. Right, right. It's dinosaurs for me, guys. Yeah. Yeah. Independently noticed by people outside the immediate family. Yes. And again, like I said, parents and caregivers.
11:04This was actually like a feature of the extremely intense interest is that it was completely independently developed. You could be a paleontologist and your kid is going to like toothbrushes. There's something about it that they think is actually about expressing your independence. This is my thing.
11:18Amy Wilson:I think there's two different things. I think one of them is like comfort item category. Yeah, that's first. There's a different category that is like baseball statistics, Pokemon cards, dinosaurs, where there's a tremendous amount of factoids to be memorized. There's a difference between like holding Mr. Potato Head's right hand in your hand. And one of my kids was the kid who's like, that's the encephalopediasaurus. Like, and he has three toes. There seems to be a divide between comfort object and this vast memorization that seems to be part of the Mets, dinosaurs, Pokemon world. I think it's actually three things, and they just usually happen in an order.
12:00First, there's a transitional object, the thing they drag everywhere. Then there is the extremely intense interest. I only want to look at trucks, play with trucks, talk about trucks, point at trucks. And then once they get a little bit older, I mean, dinosaurs, there are four-year-olds who know a lot about dinosaurs. but it's like the 6 to 10, 11, 12-year-olds who know every pitcher for the Yankees ever and every dinosaur ever. Right, right. And which Pokemon, and believe me, I have some very big boys who love to talk about which Pokemon evolves to that Pokemon with their younger cousins.
12:31Amy Wilson:It's fascinating. They want the systems. We still talk about to this day, and these kids are grown adults and professionals in the world now, but back in the day, a Christmas morning where my brother was the only one with kids, we were all gathered there, came down in the morning to brand new bicycles that grandma and grandpa had provided. The only exciting item under the tree was Pokemon cards. Nothing mattered except for Pokemon. There's something, I mean, they're designed very specifically for a reason, to light up whatever part of the brain it is that little boys, maybe mostly little kids, want the experience of like Charmanger has three power and 96 vulnerable.
13:18Amy Wilson:People who do Pokemon are dying right now because this is nothing to do with Pokemon. Yeah, that's not what happens. That's so not what Pokemon's about. But yeah. So developmentally, the intense interest, the Pokemon and stuff, that that's practice and mastery and persistence that developmentally they're doing that. They like knowing a lot about Pokemon. They love knowing more about Pokemon than mom does because mom doesn't know anything about Charmander. My son used to try to get me to name, he'd get me to name three Pokemon. Mom named three Pokemon. So I'd always be like, oh, Sidewinder. And I'd just make up words, you know, Dustbuster.
13:51As he just died inside. Yeah, that's not it. But it's all good. Let's take a break. When we come back, we're going to talk about what's going on psychologically and why this is almost always totally fine and what happens when maybe it's a little bit too much. Love it. After a long day in the summer sun, my skin needs a hydration reset. That's why I love Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum. It's super lightweight to put on, no waiting 10 minutes before you can even get dressed. And even though I'm just starting to use it, the hyaluronic acid is really helping my skin retain more moisture. Amy, agree. Osea's Hyaluronic Body Serum delivers multi-level nonstop hydration
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17:41Take it from us, therapy is worth it. And thousands of parents are already using Rula to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance and helping them and their families. And so can you. Visit Rula.com slash WFH to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash W-F-H. So a study that was published in 2007 found that these obsessions do sort of have an end date, usually. I mean, at least maybe like neurotypical kids that there's like a middle school cutoff for this. And they came up with a couple of reasons why they think that's happening. They think that once kids are in school and they actually have an hour of homework a night, they have less time to be staring at Pokemon cards.
18:25Once kids are in school, they're getting feedback about why you're still talking about dinosaurs. That's not interesting. That's not cool, man. That's not cool. Right. Either way. It's totally cool. And then you start, of course, once you're in like sixth or seventh grade, then you start thinking about your body, your identity, who do you like, who likes you, and that all kind of... Speaking of obsessions, really. It takes the place of dinosaur facts. Kind of takes over. I couldn't find much about this, but I thought this was really interesting. Like the celebrity obsessions, the boy band thing.
18:56Yes. Or like I was really into having posters of boy George on my wall for a little while and the police. You're really in a Madonna. And it's I think that that must be another version of this. That maybe girls do more than boys. And I'm going to have this very safe crush. I'm never going to meet boy George. And if you do. No harm, no foul. You didn't like women. I didn't understand that. Right. But I wanted to look like him, be him, sing like him. And he was just a very safe person for me to be obsessed with. and imagine what it would be like if we could meet someday because we actually were never were going to meet someday.
19:29Right.
19:29Amy Wilson:That was the most important part. It's basically every book that's like, it's a vampire, but he can't even kiss you. He just has to express how much he loves you. Yeah, I think that's right. And like Taylor Swift and knowing all the lyrics, I clearly remember, and I was saying it at my own dinner table. My mother would say, we're not talking about movie stars or celebrities. It would drive her crazy that my sister and I would sit there and be like, did you see that Madonna and Sean Penn are breaking up? And my mom didn't know any of these people. It's extremely annoying. I am now dealing with it.
20:00Amy Wilson:And I'm finding myself having the same conversation with my own kids about TikTok references and memes. And, you know, they're sitting around the table and being like, just speaking a language that is just they're basically reciting memes to each other that I don't understand. And I do find myself saying, We're not doing that at the dinner table. I cannot listen to you say six, seven one more time. I'm going, my head's going to explode. And I guess part of it is the thing of we're speaking our own language that the adults don't understand. And that makes it exciting. And God forbid one tries to weigh in with any understanding about this stuff.
Read the full transcript
20:36Amy Wilson:Right. Exactly. It's torture. It's your kid's Pokemon names. So there are some benefits, like psychological benefits, brain benefits to having an extremely intense interest. There's a 2008 study that showed that sustained intense interests like dinosaurs can help children develop increased knowledge, a better attention span, and ability to process information better. Like certainly if your kid loves dinosaurs, they're going to be reading books that are at or beyond their grade level because they want to. It's a really great way for them to grow. And then a bunch of studies have also found that older children with intense interests tend to be of above average intelligence.
21:18Amy Wilson:All right. What about kids who hoard yard signs in their bed? Any studies on that? How does that turn out, Amy? I need to know for a friend. I don't think it is that your extremely intense interest has made you more intelligent. I think it is probably that because you are extremely intelligent young man or young woman, you are more likely to know every major highway in the United States. You're more likely to have a brain that wants to go deep on something. Yeah. And I think that it's it just is a sign of curiosity that is very useful. Right. We often talk about self-esteem and this mysterious box of self-esteem that's hidden in the woods somewhere.
21:54Amy Wilson:It's look at what I can learn about this thing. I am the person who knows everything about dinosaurs. Mom doesn't know anything about dinosaurs. I do. It seems to me a really good source of, I had an interest, I went to the library, I took out a bunch of books about it, and now I know all of these things. I teach public speaking, and we do a game called Expert Speaker. And the idea is you just improv and nonsense your way through being the expert on growing flowers on Mars, something absurd. But the purpose of the game is what does it feel like to speak as an expert when like it's all phony, but it gives you the opportunity to inhabit the brain and mind and speech of an expert.
22:40Amy Wilson:And what does that give you? And people talk a lot about the different things it gives them in the practice of being in that role. And I think for kids, that's similarly important. You know, there's also the social thing. We haven't really talked about this, but it can be pretty cool when you're in sixth grade and you know more about Pokemon than the other kids at the lunch table. Yes. Your mileage may vary, right? Like then you go visit your cousin who lives half an hour away and she doesn't know anything about Pokemon or care. But I've definitely seen my kids get street cred from knowing the most about Magic the Gathering or whatever was happening.
23:13Amy Wilson:Right, right. It can go both ways. It can also go the way of why are you such a weirdo? Yeah. Careers about something that's deeply unimportant. Right. Oh, that's the kid who always talks about Pokemon and it's boring and we're over it. So let's talk about when kids might need some support around extreme and intense interests. Sure. They're always great things, but times that they might need some support because that's certainly one of them, that they might have circumscribed interests. It's what it's called, which moves beyond. It's not just that trains are the most interesting thing for you to think about.
23:47It's that nothing else even comes close. Basically, if we're not naming every train in the Thomas universe, why are we even having a conversation? Why are we talking? Right. And this happens sometimes for kids in the spectrum. As they get older, they had this circumscribed interest. And it's really hard to move off it to talk about other things and need some help sometimes. So like, OK, now we're going to listen to this person talk about what they like. It's like, OK, fine. But what's interesting is Thomas the Tenkinson, right?
24:12Amy Wilson:When are we going to get back to Mordor or whatever it's called? Right. Where did you live? Mordor is Lord of the Rings, but they live on some. Sodor. Sodor. There you go. Sodor and Mordor. Yeah. Yeah. A little too close. So, I mean, any kid could deal with that and some kids more than others. They need help. Like, OK, not everybody wants to talk about that all the time. And it's starting to affect your social life at school. Yeah. This is something that I think a lot about having a kid on the spectrum. We've definitely done a lot of work around. And now it's time to listen to the other person's interests.
24:42Amy Wilson:And sometimes I can literally see the blank eyes of I'm nodding, I'm nodding. And soon we will get back to talking about what I'm interested in. And I'm just fascinated by the question of should you just find lots of people who really love Thomas the Tank Engine and talk about it all day? Or I guess it is a useful skill. And, you know, we've had this debate about, like, are we bringing the world to our kids or the kids to the world? That's a good question. You can mask your intense interest for people, which may be a useful skill, but also sometimes leaning in to that intense interest, a good and a bad thing about the Internet that you can now.
25:21Amy Wilson:It used to be like if you were the one kid in the world who was interested in the Zack Snyder cut of the DC movie. Nobody wanted to talk to you about that. Now there's worlds of people who will talk about the Zack Snyder cut. Should you just go out and find the Zack Snyder people with things like train collectors or Comic-Con? There are worlds of people who were like, we're going to spend 800 hours making a Tron costume and we're going to show up in it with all these other fun people at the Javits Center and have a big party. So here's the question that I think that one asks that, as you say, makes it both like it isn't about stopping loving the thing you love.
26:02If you're looking at your kid and you're thinking, is this we going too far with the Pokemon all the time? The question is, are they finding joy through this interest? Are they finding connection through this interest or are they more finding stress and isolation? It's a great question.
26:17Amy Wilson:I've talked a lot about having OCD and that it it tends to be a temperature taker on my anxiety. The symptoms come up when I feel more anxious. And I think sometimes the intense interest has a little bit of that same quality, which is it's an outlet for something that is maybe not joy based. It's a safe place, but maybe it's not actually rewarding you in ways that are totally healthy and good. Does that make sense? Yes. And it doesn't have to be one or the other. Right. It could be it can switch from day to day. That's a spectrum for it to exist on. Is this more of a joy and connection or more of a stress and isolation?
26:51and you can just look at how it's leaning. But it is these extremely intense interests sometimes are very useful. They're a coping strategy during a stressful time. It can be actually a self-soothing strategy. Yes. Things are not going well, but I'm just going to sit here and I'm going to think about the Pokemon on the school bus and I'm going to be okay because I have mastery of this domain. They can be a source of a lot of comfort. So I don't think that it's ever about like, oh, you're too old to be talking about these things anymore. That's boring. Who cares about that? I don't think it's that ever.
27:19I think it's about maybe helping kids build bridges from it.
27:24Amy Wilson:Yeah. And I think it's complicated. I mean, I think that I've been in enough elementary school costume parades that you do start to see like, oh, there's kids who are still dressing as Toy Story while the other kids are all dressed as K-pop demon hunters. Right. They're like not caught up to the other kids. And that can be something that needs intervention or it can be something that does not need intervention. And I think that it can be hard to know which one it is, because if your kid is a sixth grader who loves Toy Story, they are going to get pushback from other kids that that's babyish. And we've moved on from that.
28:01Amy Wilson:We're not doing that anymore. Our collective social message is conform. We're about K-pop demon hunters now But I think it's supporting your kid in whatever choice they want to make Yeah, all right, let's take a break when we come back Let's talk about how we can help them expand their interests maybe a little bit just a little Amy, you know, I'm going to my big family wedding this summer and thanks to NutraFall I do not have to worry about grabbing my husband's phone to immediately delete most of the photos Because my hair is going to be on point I love it. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists.
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29:33That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code laughing. So I wore my new Zenni glasses the other night. My husband and my kids were immediately like, new glasses? Cute. Considering how much attention they usually pay to literally anything I wear, I knew my Zenni glasses are, as the kids no longer say, on fleek. The kids definitely no longer say that.
30:02Amy Wilson:Zenni is an online eyewear shop with prescription glasses, blue light lenses, and if you're like me and don't need a prescription, even sunglasses, all starting at under$30. You go to Zenni.com, you pick a frame, you upload your prescription, and they ship it to your door. No appointment, no store, no upsell at the counter. I even used Zenni's virtual try-on feature to make sure my new frames would look good on my face. Took 10 seconds. And I was like, heck yeah, statement tortoise shell. And when they showed up, they were exactly what I wanted. Same, I look like a movie star in mine. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time.
30:40Amy Wilson:Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast promo code podcast15. And now, the people you will meet at your kid's school play. From the What Fresh Out podcast. The Mama Rose. She's been to every rehearsal. She's standing on the side. She's mouthing all the words. She might be praying that the lead breaks her ankle so her kid gets a shot. The PR manager. Her kid is a solo and you're going to see it on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, and YouTube. If you run into her in the school parking lot, you're going to watch it again.
31:25The crew dad. He's busted out his steel-toed boots and he's not here to mess around. Now let's grab a two-by-four and start making this doorway, folks. No one is hammering a thumb on his watch. The, oh my god, was that today, parent? Arrives just before intermission. can't find their ticket. The paparazzi. There's like a hundred of them. They don't watch the show. They tape the show on gigantic iPads from like 2012. They sit up front so that you can watch your kids show on their iPad screens. This has been the people you will meet at your kids school play. From the What Fresh Out podcast. All right, let's expand some interest, Sammy.
32:00You know, I'm thinking about getting involved. There's definitely things that I have chosen to learn a lot about, like the players on Manchester united things like that that um but you do that i mean kind of yeah because your boys are into it yeah and then they weren't anymore good news is like okay now it's manchester united we have to get new posters for the wall and then like 18 months later we're not talking about that anymore
32:19Amy Wilson:you said the funniest thing you've ever said on the podcast i think when you were talking about learning nba players name like a desperate girlfriend trying right right by your sons being like oh i think that kyle irving is a great player i'm still at that we the nba players are an extremely intense interest in our house. So I'm still doing that. But right. I think kids like that. And then I think kids also like that only they know what the boo-boos are and we don't really know when mom is dumb. Like, I think that's sort of part of liking things. I think it's very crucial. And this is something I struggle with because I self-identify as cool mom.
32:52Amy Wilson:Like I'm with it. And it really bothers me that my kids think I'm lame. And so I often find myself shouting I'm extremely cool and my kids and they disagree as it turns out. But I do think that it's so developmentally appropriate for kids to have interests they don't share with you. It's worth acknowledging that that can be funny and ridiculous, but also maybe a little bit painful. Oh, I am actually being pushed out of this world by them talking about memes at the dinner table that I don't understand. And if it's annoying and I want to teach the lesson tonight of we don't talk about things at a dining table that three of the people at the table don't understand.
33:32Amy Wilson:That might be valid, but it's also worth examining how much of this is being like, I want to sit at the cool kids table and my kids are the cool kids. Right. Are your feelings that like, I don't know something that they know everything about? Yeah. And I think that often kids choose things. What do you say? In siblings, it's like defining an opposition that kids do that too, right? Like I'm going to choose choose a thing that specifically excludes my parents. And they're not really making that choice, but they're doing it on purpose. Yeah. I have a couple of suggestions if you have a kid who's really, you know, focused on one thing and you need to maybe help them expand a little bit.
34:13One of the suggestions is to invite expansion through the obsession. Like if it's sharks all the time. I know you have a loved one who really loves to talk about sharks all the time. I do. If you want to encourage her to expand that interest, you might say to her, do you want to sit down and write a story about sharks? Do you want to paint sharks? Do you want to make a shark cake? Whatever, that you take the obsession and you branch it out.
34:33Amy Wilson:It's like food chaining. If you like tortillas, maybe I can get you on dumplings. Like with bread, with meat in the middle. It's like socially chaining. For kids on the spectrum, this is super worthwhile. Go meet the kid in their world to bring them into your world is a model that I have seen work really, really well. Like, I am totally fine with talking to you all day about Astro Bot, which is a cartoon for the youngs now, because we're talking and talking is what we're trying to do. Yes. And connecting is what we're trying to do. And so if I spend all my connection time being like, stop talking about Astrobot, that's not interesting to me, I may be missing an opportunity for connection.
35:19Right. The other suggestion is to model flexibility that you can kind of show that interests can grow and change and talk about what you used to like when you were little. Just last night, I was talking to my high school daughter about how I got ready for school in the morning in high school and the things I needed to do and what I wore. And she doesn't want to hear much about what I have to say about a lot of things these days. But boy, she was very interested in like, and so what did you wear? And so what kind of outfits do you have? And like, I don't think I owned a pair of jeans. And that, of course, just blew her mind.
35:47And so talking about how you used to love to look at a catalog of religious articles when you were little. Such a good one. You had a state senator sign in your bed.
35:55Amy Wilson:Yeah, exactly. And I think this can be hard when you find the obsession very foreign or threatening to some degree. I don't want to have the kid who only talks about the boo-boos all day. It doesn't mean that you have to join an obsession that you think may be a little bit unhealthy. But if you think about prioritizing connection, I think that can guide you in the right direction. I know a kid who is really very obsessed with Spider-Man. That's his extremely intense interest. And I was watching him have a conversation with his grandmother where he was talking about the different stars of the different Spider-Man movies and the different directors and who's the best Spider-Man.
36:33And she said, no, you think that? Because I remember of the last time we talked about it, you told me that you thought this director was the best director. And I just was blown away because this is a woman who probably wouldn't care about these things very much. But in order to connect with this kid, she was really listening and she really engaged with them. And she really was having a two way conversation with him about who was the best director of which Spider-Man movie instead of just saying, uh-huh, uh-huh. Now come sit down. You know, instead of just redirecting and she was listening.
36:59Amy Wilson:Well, not doing the thing that we're talking about the kid with the obsession doing, which is just nodding and waiting for your turn to talk about something interesting. Yes. Similarly, one of my kids was super into Marvel movies, watched all the Marvel movies, knows all the characters. And my dad, who's never watched a Marvel movie and probably hasn't watched a popular movie in the last 20 years, they would have a sleepover once a month where they would watch a Marvel movie, get pizza and milkshakes. And this kid would explain every aspect of the Marvel universe, because to know Ant-Man and Spider-Girl, you need to know that Doctor Doom went to the second dimension and that's where he met.
37:35Amy Wilson:And like, I think it's important to really meet people where they are and that you can't actually be doing the thing of like, listen, was my dad super into Dr. Doom and the second dimension? No. But just being able to say my priority is us spending time together. And this is how that is facilitated is a gift. Yeah. And I guess like in your house, it doesn't have to be 24 seven, but you can have that movie night that's all about Spider-Man, especially if the kid is starting to get less of that at school, maybe. For sure. That at home, we can really focus on this on Friday nights. I think there is also the flip side that watch for exit ramps.
38:10Amy Wilson:Uh-huh. Because something that Allie Bosch, what's the, she wrote hyperbole and other something. Hyperbole and a half. Hyperbole and a half. This cartoonist. But she talks about as a little kid tasting hot sauce and being like, I love it kind of as a bit, almost as a four-year-old. and then for the rest of her life people were gifting her hot sauces and like pajama pants with chilies on them and stuff watch it becoming the thing where it's people being like oh that's your picky eater he won't want that don't worry about it make sure that you're not telling a story that has left the building which is my sister is so into sharks it's all she cares about that rather than get her like a nice sweater for christmas i'm gonna buy her a robot shark that swims around or bathtub.
38:53Amy Wilson:It's like, you know, is the story the real story? It occurs to me, too. So having an extremely intense interest is not only normal and developmentally appropriate, it builds confidence and it could either make your kids smarter or is a sign that your kid is already pretty smart. So it's pretty good if they have one. I'm thinking about a little boy who is really into Stephen Sondheim and can tell you at 11 who was his favorite gypsy. Was it Ethel Merman or, Or, you know, Audra. Yeah, right. Audra versus Ethel. And you're like, oh, this kid is going to suffer. We got to help this kid broaden their interests and get them to play Little League.
39:32Right. And I think that's where we have to watch our story, that they're extremely intense interests. You know, that we can get our own reactions to it, I think, can get overly intense and negative and can be part of the problem sometimes.
39:45Amy Wilson:Yeah. And I think of a kid who I know who had an intense interest that everybody was like, oh, this is what this kid's into. And then in school one day for their birthday, a teacher trying to be really kind to this kid made some sort of game that they play to like ask questions in school. I can't remember what it's called. Made the theme of this thing, the kid's interest. And the kid by then was in high school and was kind of embarrassed that, oh, I don't want to be like the train kid anymore. that when you hold that label gently for the kid too, that like if my dad and my son are watching Marvel movies together and I'm like, this is the most important tradition, they always watch Marvel movies, that I'm going to at some point be forcing them to watch Marvel movies together that neither one of them are interested in because that's what you guys do.
40:34Amy Wilson:It's like labeling the picky eater or the kid with a short temper that when we label kids externally, We can create problems doing that that we might not even see coming. Well said. Thank you. Well, I think it's important just for takeaways that these extremely intense interests are very developmentally appropriate, extremely typical, probably even more so among boys. Most kids naturally broaden their interests by middle school. Some kids don't. And both of those things are OK and also appropriate. and to remember that the thing that they're fascinated with now is really teaching them curiosity and skill set building and things that we really want our kids to have.
41:18Amy Wilson:Yeah, I think that's really true. And it's also just so fun. I smile thinking about it. I smile thinking about the little kid who loves soy sauce packets. I smile thinking about the yard sign in the bed. Like there is something wonderful because it's fundamentally, it's curiosity. It's your child's individualism coming to light. And it's so thrilling to watch. I agree. All right. We solved it. Solved it. Now, you know, everything you need to know about intense interests. Don't buy my sister any more sharks, but it's okay if you're still into Marvel in high school. It's really good if Wet Fresh Hell is your extremely intense interest.
41:56That's very appropriate. Oh, please, people. This is what we want it to be. Yeah. And if it is your intense interest, there's a lot of ways you can follow us. Like maybe you're not subscribed to our YouTube channel. Maybe you don't follow us on Instagram. There's so many places you can find us. Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube. I'm sure I'm forgetting something. Our newsletter. We're going to link to all of them in the show notes this week. Our producer is like, oh, God, sorry, Erica. We're going to link to all of them in one place. This is one-stop shopping, Erica. We're going to put all the links in one place so that you can be like, oh, I'll check them out on TikTok.
42:27So that when you say, how can I get even more What Fresh Hell? That question has already been answered for you. Love it. Thanks for joining us on our deep dives into things like extremely intense interest. I love doing these episodes.
42:39Amy Wilson:So fun. And with that, we will talk to you next time. Thanks so much for listening. So long.
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From the publisher
Amy and Margaret discuss why kids become intensely obsessed with the things they love—whether it’s dinosaurs, Pokémon, sharks, or Spider-Man—and how those fascinations manifest throughout their childhoods.
They explore the developmental benefits of "intense interests," from mastery and comfort to confidence and identity. They break down when an obsession is typical and when it may need gentle guidance.
Finally, they discuss how to connect with kids through their intense interests—and then use them as bridges to broaden kids' horizons.
Correction! Comedian Sasha Baron-Cohen and psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen are neither siblings (as Amy claims in the episode nor uncle/nephew (as Margaret believed); they are first cousins.
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Winnicott, D. W. for The International Journal of Psychoanalysis: Transitional objects and transitional phenomena; a study of the first not-me possession
Dr. Judy De Loache et al for Developmental Psychology: Planes, Trains, Automobiles—and Tea Sets: Extremely Intense Interests in Very Young Children
Lisa Joseph et al for Autism Research: Repetitive behavior and restricted interests in young children with autism: comparisons with controls and stability over 2 years.
Our episode "Dinosaurs and Trains and Superheroes and Nerf Guns: Boy Obsessions"
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intense interests in children, transitional objects, child psychology, special interests autism, supporting kids interests, mom friends, funny moms, parenting advice, parenting experts, parenting tips, mothers, families, parenting skills, parenting strategies, child development, family activities, family fun, parent child relationship,
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