In short
Kids lie as a developmental milestone, not a moral failure. The episode explains when lying is typical by age, what skills enable it (theory of mind and executive function), why kids lie (avoid consequences, get desired outcomes, test boundaries, manage shame/conflict), and how parents should respond (don’t interrogate or shame; do “truth checks,” then make amends).
Guests
Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson, hosts of What Fresh Hell? They discuss research from Dr. Kong Lee (University of Toronto) on lying and theory of mind, Dr. Matthew Rouse (Child Mind Institute) on levels of problematic lying, Dr. Fran Walfish (The Self-Aware Parent) on responding without shame, and Dr. Harold Koplowitz (Child Mind Institute) on habitual lying as a symptom.
Key claims
Most children lie between ages ~2–8; better theory of mind and executive function predict more/better lying. Not lying by ~5 can be a developmental clue (e.g., later theory of mind). Lying becomes more concerning when frequent, patterned, escalating, or consequence-driven.
Notable examples
toddlers “reading your face” (cake/lipstick), kids using trauma to get ice cream, “my dad is CEO of American Airlines,” hiding evidence of wrongdoing, and “truth check” resets for crayon-on-wall.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Complexity of Lying in Children
0:04 to 0:32
Exploring why children lie and the morality attached to it.
“but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be.”
The Complexity of Lying in Children
0:50 to 1:18
Exploring why children lie and the morality attached to it.
“Today we're going to talk about why kids lie, ages and stages, when it's normal, when it's not normal, what to do about it, and all that stuff we usually do.”
Ages and Stages of Lying
1:18 to 3:19
Discussion on different developmental stages of lying in children.
“Lying is one of those things that I think we attach morality to that is maybe not there often.”
Psychological Aspects of Lying
3:19 to 6:01
Understanding theory of mind and executive function in relation to lying.
“And there's a little bit of overlap with general understanding.”
Lying: A Developmental Milestone
6:01 to 7:58
Discussing how lying is a developmental phase rather than a moral failing.
“tell that kids are on the spectrum if they are not lying by like the age of five.”
Reasons Kids Lie
7:58 to 10:53
Investigating the various motivations behind children's lies.
“That doesn't mean that like it's totally fine if your child lies.”
Kids' Creative Mischief
14:00 to 15:25
Exploration of a childhood incident involving mischief and lying.
“And yeah, they could tell from my face, they quickly recalibrated in real time that that might not have been such a good idea.”
Kids' Creative Mischief
15:28 to 16:39
Exploration of a childhood incident involving mischief and lying.
“Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.”
Introducing Lachi's Children's Album
16:53 to 18:00
Discussion about Lachi's children's album focusing on inclusion and confidence.
“It's called Magnificent, and it's by Lachi, a Grammy-nominated musician and author.”
Understanding Why Kids Lie
18:00 to 20:44
Insights on how kids lie to boost self-confidence and navigate social dynamics.
“Kids can also lie to increase their self-confidence in the place where they don't feel confident.”
Show all 20 chapters
When Lying Becomes a Problem
20:44 to 23:49
Exploration of various levels of lying and when to address it with kids.
“And I think it's a that's a great thing that you don't know everything going on in your kids lives.”
Signs of Habitual Lying
23:49 to 27:49
Discussion on signs that indicate lying may be a concerning behavior.
“So I guess level two is just level one more, you know, that they keep doing that.”
Social Dynamics of Lying
27:49 to 28:00
Exploration of how social interactions can involve lying and fabrication.
“We got a bad medication three times a week.”
Exploring Why Kids Lie
28:00 to 32:27
Discussing the reasons behind children's lies and their implications.
“And the idea that there's no discernible reason.”
Exploring Why Kids Lie
33:36 to 33:51
Discussing the reasons behind children's lies and their implications.
“Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.”
Moms and Their Little Lies
33:51 to 35:53
Examples of the harmless lies moms tell their kids and their humorous implications.
“When you're eating a bowl of ice cream and you really don't feel like sharing.”
Understanding Childhood Lies
35:53 to 42:01
Exploring the complexity and motivations behind children's lies and how to address them.
“The way that people lie and especially kids, I think, can be very confusing.”
Understanding Kids' Lies: Communication Over Punishment
42:01 to 44:30
Learn how to approach your child's lies as a means of communication rather than a failure.
“because we don't want to end up dead like jeffrey and it was like total silence in the car she's Like I felt, would have felt a bomb for the first time as a comedian.”
Truth Checks: A Gentle Approach for Younger Kids
44:31 to 46:19
Discover the concept of 'truth checks' to help younger kids own up to their actions without fear.
“Let's talk about, this is really important advice for younger kids.”
Creating Safe Spaces for Honest Conversations
46:20 to 49:45
Explore strategies for fostering honest communication with your child about difficult topics.
“And it doesn't mean to get all tweet tweet and like, oh, it's okay that you burnt the house down and said you didn't because lying is communication.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love, and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.
0:32Amy Wilson:Developmentally appropriate. What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. I have four ponies at my house. With Margaret Ables. And Amy Wilson. I love a little theory of mind, Amy. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas. So you don't have to. They could tell from my face that might not have been such a good idea.
1:00Amy Wilson:Hello and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Motherhood. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today we're going to talk about why kids lie, ages and stages, when it's normal, when it's not normal, what to do about it, and all that stuff we usually do. We're going to solve it completely in the next 40 minutes or so. First of all, love that for us. Love that for our listeners. That's not a lie. Lying is one of those things that I think we attach morality to that is maybe not there often. Oh, interesting. And I think that's a really interesting that lying is somehow the sign of a bad child.
1:35Amy Wilson:Bad children lie and good children tell the truth. Right. Right. Whereas it turns out all children lie for developmentally appropriate reasons and some lie, you know, a lot and whatever. OK, so let's start with ages and stages of lying, because interestingly, babies, toddlers, like ages, you know, zero to somewhere between two and three. they can't lie and the reason that they can't lie is because they don't really understand that their parent isn't omniscient right first they don't even understand that you're different from them right first they don't understand that you don't have the same brain right right and then they don't understand that brains aren't the same and that you know their every thought and like kids just don't they don't know that they're completely bonded to you and they don't understand that.
2:22And it isn't until kids are three or maybe two and a half if they're very precocious that they develop something that's called theory of mind. I love a little theory of mind, Amy. Hit us. So theory of mind is the ability to anticipate what another person thinks or feels and to understand that other people's beliefs and feelings are different from one's own. So this means like your one and a half year old won't lie to you, but they'll also pull your hair or, you know, pinch mommy and think it's funny because they're not doing that to be naughty. They're doing that because they don't understand that somebody else can feel sad when they're happy.
2:58Somebody else can feel pain when they don't. You know, I want that truck. So I'm going to hit you over the head with this truck. Well, they don't understand that that's a problem because they don't understand other people feel differently than they do. Right. So theory of mind is very important. And once they figure this out, it's what would lead you to understand that lying is even impossible that you have a state of mind that's different from my own.
3:19Amy Wilson:Yeah. And there's a little bit of overlap with general understanding. This is why a three-year-old walks in covered head to toe in cake. And you say, did you eat the cake? And they're like, no, because they understand that the correct answer is no. They look at your face and they know that the right answer is no, but they don't really understand all the connections between like I'm covered in cake. Like if I wanted to not be caught eating cake, I should not have covered myself in it. That's true. That it can come not just out of like I can get away with something because they don't know what I know, but that I want to please mommy.
3:58That Facebook video everybody's seen of the girl who's covered herself in lipstick. Yeah, you're her ribstick. Her ribstick, right? I just, I forget what she says, but she's covered in lipstick. It's like, no, I'm not. I'm not covered in lipstick at all.
4:11Amy Wilson:Right. Right. That's a little bit more. They're lying, but they're doing a little bit more of the thing that we've talked about, which is how horses can do math. You know, they're watching your reaction and knowing what the right answer is. The right answer is I didn't take your lipstick. The right answer is I did not put any lipstick on. So are they lying? I mean, technically, but what they're really doing is just reading your face and knowing that the right answer is definitely no. So there's The psychology professor named Dr. Kong Lee, University of Toronto, studies kids, has studied lying in kids.
4:44And Dr. Lee says that lying, being able to lie, having the ability to even do it, requires two ingredients. One is theory of mind. And Dr. Lee posits that children who are better at theory of mind are also better at lying. And we're going to get to that because it was a really interesting study. But that makes sense. kids who are more clever and more adept at understanding people's mindsets, but also that you need executive function, which is the ability to plan ahead and curb unwanted actions. So yes, this kid, like, did you touch mommy's lipstick? Well, that kid is trying to plan ahead. Like, I can see where this is going to go if I say, yes, I'm curbing the unwanted actions, which is I can tell I'm not supposed to say I took your lipstick.
5:25So I'm going to say, no, I didn't, even though the evidence is all over my face. That's a kid with executive function and the ability to plan ahead.
5:32Amy Wilson:And the flip side of that, having had kids who were tested early for spectrum stuff, generally kids with developmental delays cannot lie until they're older. Because theory of mind tends to develop later for kids on the spectrum. They don't have the two parts of, they're delayed in executive function and they're delayed in theory of mind. And so it can be a very strong tell that kids are on the spectrum if they are not lying by like the age of five. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, it's the flip side of it. So this University of Toronto research said that a two-year-old who talks a lot, maybe like one in three can lie, but most two-year-olds can't.
6:18By the time they get to three, about half can and do. At about four, it's 80%. They're all doing it. They're all trying. We'll get into all the reasons that is. Five to seven, everybody's doing it all the time. And then like eight and later, it really starts to curb off. I mean, if your teenager's lying about where they went last night, that's very specific. But the idea that your kid is waking up from nap time and telling you that they flew to the moon with, you know, with their favorite doggy, they kind of stopped doing that. They stopped fabulating things about eight. Right.
6:50Amy Wilson:That I think is interesting that lying is a very specific word that we have very specific associations with. Lying is bad. Lying is sneaky. Bad people lie. Lying has this huge moral component attached to it. And that as you're raising kids, I think it's very interesting that lying is an odd developmental phase that is kind of important. And I think people would recognize that as, you know, what did you and Kitty do when you were at daycare? Oh, Kitty and I went on a train and we, you know, I'm talking about a stuffed kitty. We went here and there. Like, people are like, stop lying. That's bad.
7:32Amy Wilson:But a child who looks you in the face and is like, I did not do that. You do have this feeling of what's wrong with this kid. Like we feel strongly that as social people, someone who can look directly in your face and tell a lie is a sociopath. And that's the bad seat. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Lying is developmentally appropriate. We still need a theme song for developmentally appropriate and biological imperative. But it's developmentally appropriate. And I think it's important. That doesn't mean that like it's totally fine if your child lies. There's no consequences to lying. But I do think we overcorrect for lying is bad behavior of bad children.
8:17Amy Wilson:And in fact, lying is human behavior that develops in typical children. And it's onset can be really sudden. I'm quoting Dr. Matthew Rouse here. He's a psychologist at Child Mind Institute, that the onset of lying and a kid can be very sudden and that can be completely typical. That's how it goes. And yet if you have a kid who's doing that all of a sudden, you're freaking out as a parent like, oh, no, lying is bad. I have a kid who lies. my job is to turn off the lying. And I don't think it's black and white for kids. No, no. Don't lie to me. It's like, wait, what does that mean? What? You know, I don't think that children understand lying in the same way that we do.
8:53This study I thought was really interesting. So Dr. Kong Lee, who studies kids and lying, I guess, at the University of Toronto had this idea that theory of mind, you need theory of mind to lie. So then the theory became our kids who are better at theory of mind going to be better or grasp it, be better at lying. So they had a study in China. They took about 60 preschoolers and they put them into two groups. And half of the kids had six sessions where they learned about math and numbers and spatial reasoning. And half of the kids had six sessions of theory of mind training where it taught them how to understand other people's mental states and feelings and facial expressions and things like that.
9:35So they split the two kids up. After those six weeks, they found that the children who got the theory of mind training as preschoolers were not only more frequent liars, but were way better liars than the other group. And that that lasted for about a month. And then it kind of evened out. Evened out. That it is something that you can learn. Again, not bad, just interesting. They're just trying out. It's like a baby that was lying down at nap time, no problem. And all of a sudden, and they're standing up and they're getting stuck standing up. And like every day at nap time, it's a huge issue. Like it's not they're using something they've learned, not necessarily for better, but I've figured out this thing.
10:10And I'm testing it out.
10:11Amy Wilson:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that that's right, that we over index for morality with lying and that it really is. It's like rolling over. It's a developmental milestone. And we don't hear enough about that, because I feel like people have an idea of like, is my kid good or bad? And I would argue strongly that there is no such thing, but that your kid may be exhibiting good behaviors or bad behaviors or troublesome behaviors, but that lying until the age of, let's say, eight is mostly a developmental issue, not a moral issue. I think there's ways you can figure it out, but let's start to talk about why kids lie.
10:53This is a big, big section, but let's get into it because there's a lot of different reasons. We're going to link in the show notes to a Child Mind article by Beth Arkey, who breaks this down really well. A lot of this is from that article. She says that most parents think kids lie. I'll test you. What are the reasons, like off the top of our heads, that kids lie? Kids lie to get out of trouble, right? Number one would be. To get their sibling in trouble, maybe.
11:15Amy Wilson:To get someone else in trouble. Yeah. I would say kids generally lie before the age of 10 to get something they want or to avoid something they don't want. Those would be the two categories, I think. Right. So that's what they say, that it's get something they want, get out of something they don't want, or to avoid a consequence. That those are the reasons, and there are other less obvious reasons why kids might not want to tell the truth or the whole truth. Well, we talked about this in the kind of talking about hard things or, you know, when bad things happen episode, that children play in ways that can be very disturbing.
11:51Amy Wilson:Giving the example, your grandmother dies and then you find them out burying each other in the backyard and being like you're dead like grandma. It's very shocking to see how kids play. I think similarly, it can be very shocking to see how kids lie. I remember I was taking care of a kid who had been through a trauma and they were crying at one point and a parent had died. And they were like, I guess I'm just really sad that my parent died. And I was like, oh my God, like this is my worst nightmare. here we go. This is the thing. And then they looked up at me and they were like, ice cream would probably help.
12:23Amy Wilson:And I thought, oh, my God, like this little psychopath is using this huge trauma to get ice cream. And I remember thinking like this is so deranged. And what it was was extremely developmentally appropriate. People feel sorry for me about this thing that is almost too big for me to understand as a six or seven year old. But I do know that if I mention it, people will kind of give me whatever I want. Like, that's just a sign of intelligence in the kid, actually, that they're making certain connections. But as an adult who understands the bigger picture, I found it bad. This is nuts. That's testing out.
13:03Dr. Rouse calls this testing out new behavior. Right. This is just like, I wonder if this would work if I tried this. Could I get free ice cream all the time? Every time I mention just testing something out. Yeah. So that's one. Another one is a developing sense of morality. This is Beth Arkey saying children begin to lie as they are better able to anticipate which behaviors might get them into trouble. So they're understanding right and wrong. The good news is they understand right from wrong. They know that coloring on the wall was probably not a great idea. They know that.
13:35Amy Wilson:And so it was a great idea, but it's about to come slamming down into consequences. I suddenly realized some people might think that was a bad thing. right i mean my drawing is amazing oh but wow in looking at mom's face i can tell that she is not happy that i made this choice my kids we rented a house one summer that had a gravel driveway and my kids were they would call it the sandbox so they go out there with like with trucks and play in the gravel and then yeah i think they were probably five and three and my five-year-old came in like we have something to show you we've decorated the car and they had taken the pebbles and scratched designs all around the side of the car.
14:16And yeah, they could tell from my face, they quickly recalibrated in real time that that might not have been such a good idea.
14:21Amy Wilson:Did something awesome. No, no, it was my brother's idea. Now that I see your face, I remember it was all his idea. All right, when we come back, even more reasons why kids lie. Amy, I'm soaking in it. You know I hate packing to go places, which is why I'm so grateful that Quince's mix and match pieces make throwing together a vacation wardrobe so much easier. Quince specializes in high quality essential pieces that will become the basic building blocks of your wardrobe. Like the 100 % organic cotton poplin pin tuck maxi skirt I just got. You can wear it to the pool. You can wear it out to dinner.
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16:52Amy Wilson:We wanted to share a terrific new children's album with you. It's called Magnificent, and it's by Lachi, a Grammy-nominated musician and author. Lachi's work focuses on inclusion and helping kids feel confident in who they are. It's one of those albums that parents can enjoy as much as their little ones. Lachi's playful songs celebrate difference, diversity, self-expression, and imagination. There's a gentle message that runs through the whole album around confidence and emotional well-being, but without ever feeling heavy or lesson-y. Magnificent is the kind of music you can put on during your morning routine, in the car, or wherever your kid needs a little bit of a reset.
17:32Let me tell you, I am always here for catchy, thoughtful songs for kids that parents won't mind hearing again and again. Magnificent is streaming now on all major platforms, Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you listen.
17:45Amy Wilson:We'll put the link to Lachi's album, Magnificent, in the show notes for this episode. Just click the link and it'll take you straight to the album. Or search Magnificent by Lachi, spelled L-A-C-H-I. Kids can also lie to increase their self-confidence in the place where they don't feel confident. Yeah, this is Jan Brady. I have a boyfriend named George Glass. He goes to a different school. George Glass. It can also be, I'm fine when they're not. I mean, we don't think of that as lying, but it is. That didn't hurt when it did. Or that didn't hurt my feelings. Yeah, that's kind of a sad one. And yeah, this is also kids get very good at calibrating the temperature of rooms and stuff.
18:28Amy Wilson:And in like high trauma households, they get very good at what to say to not make mom mad or OK, mom's sleeping because she has a headache or whatever. And kids are incredibly good generally at reading dynamics in spaces. And I think kids from high conflict situations are even better at it. They're doing their job at this age, which is like their little Terminator brain, right? It is taking in information and ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like, what am I seeing and how am I supposed to react to it? There's also impulsivity. I mean, sometimes kids just love to tell whoppers. And that's an old Dulux alert.
19:11Amy Wilson:Back in my day. People don't say that anymore. Tell a whopper. No, I mean, that's an oldie locks alert from like the 1920s, Sammy. It's not even from the 1980s. Some kids are just impulsive. We had a kid come to visit our house once and we were taking him with us to my in-laws house, the grandma's house. And, you know, we're like, we're almost at their grandmother's house. And he's like, yeah, my grandmother has a house right over there. And my kids were like, he does? Why have you never played with them when his grandmother lives right across the street? I'm like, he's just, we'll talk about this later.
19:40I'm like, he's just saying that. He's saying that to make himself feel more comfortable and it doesn't matter that, you know, sometimes kids just do that. And sometimes we do teach kids like we are instructing them that a white lie is OK. Right. You're going to tell grandma you love your present even when you didn't.
19:54Amy Wilson:Well, that's the flip side of lying, right? That we want it not to lie, except for when we want them to lie. We don't want them to be like, I don't want to kiss grandma because she smells weird. We don't want that. That's the truth. Right. But we don't want them to say it. And so there's a lot of learning around lying and socializing and communication that goes on at this age between like two and a half and seven, let's say, where you're just constantly calibrating. That's why being in high conflict environments can be very damaging for kids of that age, because that calibrating, it gets an overdrive, basically, that like my safety is very connected to figuring out these cues.
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20:37Amy Wilson:but all kids are doing it they're trying to figure out cues and then once kids hit teen years it turns into more like lies of omission like the things that i don't know about what my kids are doing is because they're not telling me things more than they are telling me i was with jessica it's like i don't know where they went and they didn't mention it which again can be very developmentally appropriate i mean you don't want your parents not want your teens to be like and And then we went here and then, you know, that's a huge part of teenage development is the separation that starts to happen.
21:15Amy Wilson:And I think it's a that's a great thing that you don't know everything going on in your kids lives. That's right. Because that, again, is developmentally appropriate that. Right. I sometimes want to be like, and then what happened? And was it weird? Where were you? And I have a kid who's spending the summer just out on adventures with friends, biking with a fishing rod and going out. And this little group of friends just goes out every day and explores. And I'm like, but were you crossing at the line? Tell me more. But I want to feel the control of knowing everything. But it's better that I don't know everything.
21:49Let's talk about the difference between lying that's a problem and lying that isn't a problem. I think we've kind of established that all kids are going to lie at some point and that's not a problem. Right. So when is it a problem? Right.
22:00Amy Wilson:I'm kind of coming in hot with like, eh, lying is fine. But like, obviously, lying can be a problem. There's a line. Right, right. But you will probably be happy to hear how far it has to go before child psychologists think that this is a problem. So this is Dr. Matthew Rouse again, the child mind psychologist. He sort of says like level one, level two, level three. And each of these are not like call a psychologist. They're just levels. So level one is an attention seeking one. like if it's coming from a place of low self-esteem well my grandmother lives there too or like I have four ponies at my house that kind of thing right that's when you ignore or redirect I think maybe unless it becomes like I definitely knew kids in elementary school who were just constantly like my dad is the CEO of American Airlines or whatever yeah and we were like no they're not and you're a weirdo I think if it's a harmless one-off that's like I'm not afraid of flying and you could see them like shaking, you know, I think getting under this, if it becomes a pattern is a good idea.
23:02Well, I think how much they do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's lying. Like skipping ahead to like when it is a problem. If it's a four year old saying like my house is made of cotton candy, who really, you know, who cares? But it's a 12 year old saying, right, that my dad is a CEO of American Airlines. And the peers are being like, no, they're not. Stop it, you weirdo. That might be something that peers are going to correct pretty quickly, but that they lie much more than their peers are lying is actually is a sign of like, there might be something here.
23:31Amy Wilson:Yeah. Yeah. So I think that this one is not totally ignore. It's ignore if it's harmless, but know where your line is. But ignore it and don't ignore if it's all day every day. That's a good point. Level two, maybe these levels are a little confusing because level two is they keep spinning fantastical tales. Okay. So I guess level two is just level one more, you know, that they keep doing that. Then maybe you might say something like, wow, that sounds like an interesting story. But why don't you, why don't you tell me that again? What were you really doing at school today? You might push back a little bit.
24:03Like that sounds like a fun idea, but who was really at the party that you pushed back on it a little bit?
24:08Amy Wilson:I mean, as a person who had to tell my husband to stop correcting my stories, after we were first married, we'd be at parties and I'd be like, and this huge dog and I would be laughing and he's like the dog wasn't even that big and i finally was like you're not a journalist man you don't need to fact check me i am a spinner of tall tales and i don't want to be uh i like i tell the best story not the accurate most accurate story but yeah i think for kids again there's a line between like and oh my gosh at the at the very last second we scored the goal and the whole place went wild like you probably know that's not exactly how it happened but that's like the fun version of the story that makes them the hero it is a cool version of the story versus that doesn't sound right.
24:49Amy Wilson:And I find with my kids sometimes that they tell me stuff in the, not in the news, but like, oh my gosh, did you hear that? I don't know. Like in two years, climate change is going to wipe us all off the map. I'm like, yeah, there are elements that I understand where you got it from. But like, let's walk through that as a story or a version of the story that seems important. But there's a difference too between I'm realizing like, if a dog came running out at the party and you're like it was huge dog and it wasn't actually that big okay but there was a dog you're not saying a tiger came in yes right you're not completely fantasizing about things that didn't happen you're exaggerating for comic effect yes level three he's saying is a lie like you lied about where you were last night you didn't bring home the test with a bad grade like you did something you shouldn't have done and then you hid evidence of that in order to try to avoid consequences.
25:44Yeah. He's calling that out as something more specific that may require a consequence, short-lived consequence, he says, and fixing the wrong should be a part of that.
25:55Amy Wilson:I think I'm coming to a conclusion a little bit early, perhaps, but I think that what this is making me think is that lying is behavior. Lying is not who a person is. It's behavior and it's communication. In the same way sometimes that like hitting or screaming or tantruming that you have to attack lying from kind of that same point of view. Like lying is communication. And if you're lying about your homework, let's get underneath that and be like, what's going on in this class that we're not handing in our homework and lying about it? Right. And that you felt like you had to hide it from me. Right.
26:34Amy Wilson:Right. Or what's going on with your friend group that you're telling them that we have a Porsche, you know, or what's going on? Like, you have to see that lying can often be its behavior, its communication, and it's a clue to something that's going on in their lives that like, you can't just be like, stop lying, stop lying, stop lying. You have to get under it and say, why are we lying about this? I'm going to come at you with Dr. Harold Koplowitz. He's been on the show. We'll link to the fresh take we did with him in the show notes. He started the Child Mind Institute. He would agree with you, Margaret.
27:08He says habitual lying is a symptom, not a diagnosis.
27:12Amy Wilson:I'm going to tell you, I did not even look forward in the notes. I did not cheat, but it really occurred to me as we were having the conversation that lying is like a rash on your face. It's something that's going on with your system that is manifesting in lying. It's not who you are as a person. We're saying that all kids lie. Some kids lie a lot. So then the habitual part is something you need to look at. But even then, the habitual lying is because my parents are fighting a lot or whatever. There's a that's not a diagnosis in and of itself. That might be a kid who needs some support, but it isn't.
27:47We have a liar here. You know, start. We got a bad medication three times a week. We got a bummer. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. So let's talk about some of the signs that it might be more of a problem instead of developmentally appropriate. Okay. We've covered them, but the frequency. Yep. And the idea that there's no discernible reason. Like, why are they telling me this? I mean, I do know a kid like this. It's like, they just say this stuff. My dad is the president of American Airlines. Like, why are you even saying that? Right. What is the, I know that's not true. You know, I know that's not true.
28:18And let's be very clear. We all know adults like that, too.
28:21Amy Wilson:Why are you saying things that you and I oddly both know are not true? Oh my God. One of my kids, I'm not going to give any more details on that. One of my kids grew up going to school with a kid who was this kid and would always be at the dinner table like, this kid says this stuff and it's not true. And we would sort of be like, oh, that's a little annoying, but whatever. Just say like, okay, and move on. It doesn't matter. You don't have to prove them wrong. I got talking to one of the parents at a holiday party. and I haven't seen these parents in a long time because like this is when my kids were little and the parent like at the holiday party was just completely fabulating stories doing it too.
28:59I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. Like, oh, well, this is where it came from. That their kid is the most amazing kid then got like scores that nobody ever seen and was actually like, I know that's, as you say, like, I know that's not true. Why are you even telling me this? So it is sometimes a learned behavior. Lying more than their peers lie. That's a reason to be concerned. experiencing other personality issues that go along with it. Okay. And a pattern that's getting worse. Yeah. Your kid is hiding things from you and then they're hiding more things from you. Okay.
29:26Amy Wilson:So all of this is true. And even then. And lying that has consequences, right? Like lying about where they are, lying about. And I think lying can be a good sign that you are on the wrong side of the net with your kids. you know that like they're lying to you and it's causing conflict that you know I try to say to my kids listen if you're at a party and something's going on that you don't like or you can't drive the car and I don't have drivers yet just call me and be like I got drunk at 17 but then don't drive the car to try to cover up the fact that you're like let's figure out where I mean they always say this in politics, right?
30:11Amy Wilson:The cover up is worse than the crime. Don't get into a situation where your lies are getting you. You're trying to stay out of a small amount of trouble and then you're going to end up in a space where you are in so much trouble because you're kind of covering up too much stuff. Tangled web. When I was in high school, my drama club was supposed to do a spaghetti dinner to raise money for the play. Right. And so I was the president of the drama club. And so my drama teacher said, will you call Mr. Whoever? He was the head of the parents association of the drama club. Like we're talking like 10 people in each of these clubs.
30:44I was supposed to call like this dad that I didn't really know on the phone because there's no email, right? And talk to him about setting up a spaghetti dinner. And then the next week, my teacher said to me, I was in high school and my teacher said to me, did you call? And I said, yep, I called. Well, I hadn't called. And I really, because I really didn't want to call like somebody else's dad and talk to him. I just couldn't imagine doing that. So it's easier to lie to my Doma teacher about it. Anyway, by the time, like the tangled web that I had to put up to support that I had talked to him and that this spaghetti dinner was underway planning when I just needed to come clean and say, and then eventually I did.
31:17And she was like, why did you tell me you call when you didn't call? You know, I couldn't even really explain it anymore, but it quickly got way beyond my ability to handle it. I want to say something about that as soon as we come back.
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32:20Amy Wilson:For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing. That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com promo code laughing. Hey me, I'm soaking in it. You know I hate packing to go places, which is why I'm so grateful that Quince's mix and match pieces make throwing together a vacation wardrobe so much easier. Quince specializes in high quality essential pieces that will become the basic building blocks of your wardrobe, like the 100 % organic cotton poplin pin tuck maxi skirt I just got.
33:03You can wear it to the pool. You can wear it out to dinner. Wear it everywhere because it goes with everything else that's already in my closet.
33:10Amy Wilson:Everything at Quince is priced 50 % to 80 % less than similar brands. They cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince also offers elevated essentials in every category, from bedding and bath to kitchen staples to furniture. Upgrade your every day. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash fresh. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's quince.com slash fresh. And now, why moms tell lies and when it's okay. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. When you're eating a bowl of ice cream and you really don't feel like sharing.
34:01Oh, sweetie, you wouldn't like this ice cream.
34:04Amy Wilson:It's really spicy. When your kids proudly show you their artwork. Oh, this is beautiful. Oh, no, of course I could tell it was supposed to be a cow. It looks just like a cow. And this is its face? Oh, no, its leg. Oh, right, right. That's its leg. I mean, of course. When it's time for homework. Are you crazy? It is super important to know how to scoop words with one open syllable. In order to function as an adult, you really need to get that right. When you get caught. What? No, honey. I didn't put your special art project in the recycling bin. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's the special place I save treasured things that I want to frame later on.
34:52Fluffy's fine. She is alive and happy in her new home. You know, as sad as it is, pets sometimes just go off to find their soulmate. And sadly, sometimes that soulmate lives somewhere really far away. You should be happy for Fluffy and her wonderful new life. When you just really want to. Sweetie, your Elsa doll that sings Let It Go at top volume 24 hours a day, it seems to be out of batteries. And you know what is so sad? They don't make that kind of battery anymore. Oh, how annoying. I guess you'll just have to enjoy the non-singing version of her from now on. When it's daylight savings time.
35:33Bedtime! What do you mean the clock says it's only 6.30? Oh, yeah, that's when we haven't stepped forward yet. Now go to sleep!
35:40Amy Wilson:This has been Why Moms Tell Lies and When It's OK from the What Fresh Out podcast.
35:52Amy Wilson:I touched on this before, but I think it's so important that in the same way that we don't understand kids burying each other in the backyard and playing grandma's funeral disturbs us. The way that people lie and especially kids, I think, can be very confusing. like why would you lie why did you tell that lie Amy you don't know today and you didn't know in high school like a weird thing you did yeah call that guy right right I think that that can get very like literally right here is the easy door of no I didn't because I'm feeling shy about it she might have helped you there was literally no reason to tell that lie you made things 400 times more difficult and you like ruin the pasta dinner like why there was no pasta just dead and as an adult there's just a million examples of we all find ourselves saying a lie and then you've made your life 800 times more complicated and the ability to suss that out in kids and kind of skip the step where you're like, Amy, what the actual blank is wrong with you?
37:08Amy Wilson:What a bizarre thing to do. Lies can be very weird in the same way that burying grandma in the backyard can be very weird. So that's like the first thing that we shouldn't do, as it turns out, to help our kids lie less or to work on it is to put them on the spot and force them to come clean. Like, I know you're lying. I know you didn't. Or to say, so why did you do that? Because this is a perfect example. And you're exactly right. I didn't know then. I just didn't want to talk to the guy and then I didn't want to let her down. So I just I just punted and said, yeah, I called him. And then I couldn't.
37:36Now I would disappoint her if I told her that I had lied and it blew up. But I didn't have a satisfactory explanation. This is why you like
37:43Amy Wilson:Fargo so much, because that's a lot of Fargo. The guy like tells just one stupid thing. Right. Right. For no reason. Right. And I think that we want to be like, why? Why would you do that? Why did you do that? I have a kid who did something in school that was extremely strange. And basically, kids were putting soap on a mirror and he ended up writing something really strange on the mirror that then set off a series of kind of events where people were like, who wrote this? And then, of course, he was panicked. Right. And I did make the mistake of being like, why would you write that? Of all the words to choose, it wasn't something, you know, racist or something.
38:26Amy Wilson:We leave these things vague because we're not talking about our kids' lives on here. It was just such a strange choice of words that it made it even weirder. But then the kid who's just fooling around and having a good time and is like, you know, it'd be funny if I wrote this weird thing, walks out of the bathroom and suddenly the consequences start hitting. And it's like, I now have to admit that I wrote this thing. Like it just executive function kicks in a little bit too late. And you do have this reaction of your example is so perfect, Amy, because why would you say that you called him when you didn't?
39:03Amy Wilson:There's nothing scary about calling the guy. Well, there was when I was, yeah, when I was sure for reasons I can't explain. It's just so weird. And or just say you didn't want to or say you can't or say, yeah, right. Just be honest. But right. That Fargo feeling of, oh, my God, I pulled a kid in my high school, pulled the fire alarm and it shot red dye out of a little thing at the bottom. to stay in their hands to so that you could tell who did it and the drama of I mean again why did you pull the fire alarm because you had some weird teenager don't have executive function right like you did not have executive function and you thought it would be cool and now you're going through this you're practically going to saw your arm off rather than admit that like in a in a moment of impulsive craziness teenagerness well let's talk about the things to do instead like of calling the kid the it is the die in their arm, right?
39:55You know. So instead of saying, admit it right now, you don't have to, you know, they know that you know, like you can skip that part. And instead, say, particularly if they're little, put positive attention on telling the truth. This is Dr. Fran Walfish. She wrote a book called The Self-Aware Parent. She says, bust your child in a nice way. Stay away from being like, you liar. And you like, don't skip that part and just go to like, okay, what are we going to do to fix this? You're going to write a letter to the principal apologizing. You're going to clean up the hallway where the die got on the floor.
40:23You know, whatever the things are, you're going to make this right because it's important to tell the truth instead of like ring the shame bell and follow them around for the next week.
40:32Amy Wilson:That is exactly right. And I also find that with like the shame stuff, this incident that happened with my kid, we ended up talking a lot about. And in the beginning, they could not talk about it at all. They felt so ashamed of it. And then in the months and years that follow, we'll still reference it sometimes, you know, whether it's table talk or it just comes up in conversation like what's the most embarrassing thing you've ever done? What's the most trouble you've ever gotten into? And I think that it's important to be like, I didn't understand why Amy told that weird lie in that weird situation.
41:07Amy Wilson:But it's not scary or shameful to talk about. that it's okay to say we've all had that weird instinct to pull the fire alarm. And was that the dumbest thing you've ever done? It's up there in the top 10 for sure. Right. But remember when you just randomly pulled the fire alarm on a Thursday, like, aren't our minds weird how they tell us to do these things? I think leaning in to the truth and you listen, this is not a one and done piece of advice. You've got to calibrate. You don't want to make it like, ha ha, Amy told that stupid like she's a dummy like you don't want to go into making fun of it but i think that leaning into the shame sarah silverman wrote a book and she talks about being in a car and she had a younger brother who died before she was born an infant and that at some point in the car she was like the child's name was jeffrey someone was like put your seatbelts on she's like yeah because we don't want to end up dead like jeffrey and it was like total silence in the car she's Like I felt, would have felt a bomb for the first time as a comedian.
42:09Amy Wilson:But also your kids are trying to probe at why don't we ever talk about Jeffrey? Like there's behavior there. If you can take it as communication, I think it's a little bit easier to get at what's going on. So this is like an older kids thing. For older kids, if you can tell the truth, if you can talk about it, which you need to do, then you move on to the consequence, which is to make it right. Right. Which isn't to like live in the shame of being a liar. and you can't like move beyond that because it will help with older kids. If you were drinking at a party and you come home and you tell me you're drinking at a party, I won't be happy about it.
42:43There might even be a consequence, but that's way better than lying about it. Kids have to feel like they can say hard things to you out loud.
42:51Amy Wilson:Yeah, and the conversation should be, let's get on the same side of the net with this. Not like now you're in trouble because you're a liar over there and I'm the righteous one and I'm going to stop you from lying. whereas I had a situation with a young person who went somewhere, didn't tell us, and the conversation became they were in a situation that then they were uncomfortable in in that place where they didn't tell us they'd gone. And so the conversation became pretty quickly, if you don't tell us where you are, then that situation is difficult. We are less able to help you because we don't have enough information.
43:31Amy Wilson:And there are very few situations, I think, where you say, I want to do this thing that we wouldn't have a conversation with you about, whether or not we would let you go there. But I hope you can see that lying to us about where you were fed into how uncomfortable that situation got. Right. And even then, telling the truth is better than continuing to lie. Like even though it's going to get even harder to tell the truth, it's always better to tell the truth than to try to prop up this lie even further. Yeah. And hey, we're both on the same side of this problem. You want more freedom. But when you take the freedom too far, you end up in a situation that's uncomfortable for you.
44:12Amy Wilson:So how can we address this problem together? Maybe we need to give you a little bit more freedom about where you're going, but then you need to communicate more truthfully about where you're going so that we can all make sure those situations are safe versus you did a bad thing and you're in trouble with me. And now you'll never go anywhere. Yeah. Let's talk about, this is really important advice for younger kids. Dr. Carol Brady, not Jan's mother. I was going to say Jan's mom, Carol Brady. This is such good advice. This is for younger kids. Not the teenager who's out drinking. This is for younger kids.
44:46Crayons on the wall. We'll go back to the crayon on the wall thing, right? Your kid clearly wrote on the wall. It wasn't you and the kid's only other one home. What happened here. Did you color on the wall? No, I didn't. And they're digging in their heels and getting panicky. You say something like, I'm going to walk away and I'm going to wait for 10 minutes. I'm going to come back and then we're going to talk about this again. And if you want to change your mind and give me a different answer, that's okay. You won't be in trouble for lying if you want to give me a different answer. And she calls it a truth check and just being like, okay, we're going to reset.
45:18And again, don't like circle the way like, how dare you? You're trying to make it easier for them to fess up so they can get to the part where they make up for what they've done by cleaning the crayon off the wall. So you give them a truth check, a do over 10 minutes, reenter it totally clean, right? No, like, are you ready to tell me? No, none of that. Just like, hey, I wanted to talk again about the on the wall, I wanted to do a truth check and just ask you again, do you know what happened here? Do you want to give me an answer as to what happened that they will usually that's enough time for them to be like, okay, I wrote on the wall.
45:48And then you move to the consequence, which is to clean it up and they say they're sorry or they tell grandma that they're really sorry they did it, whatever it is. Yeah. The truth check is a like shame free way for them to own what they've done.
46:02Amy Wilson:I think it's coming back to this idea of turning down the heat on lying as a thing that like we see lying as a moral failure and something that bad kids do. And so we want to stamp it out really, really hard. And that we need to change to this idea of lying is communication. And it doesn't mean to get all tweet tweet and like, oh, it's okay that you burnt the house down and said you didn't because lying is communication. It means not attacking the lie, but getting underneath it, not because we're so sensitive, because it really makes a difference. And I think this is somewhere where you can tell your own stories.
46:46Amy Wilson:Everybody has gotten in trouble by lying. Everybody tells lies. I mean, everybody tells lies every day, basically, you know, from does my sweater look good to did you do the thing I asked you? My husband has a funny habit. And it's now made me laugh, but it used to make me so crazy, I would say, hey, did you deposit that check I asked you to deposit? No answer. It'd just be this long pregnant pause. Well, I could tell that his brain was scrambling to be like, I'm in trouble and I need to come up with something. And I'm like, just say no, I didn't. I'm not like, I'm not your mom. I'm not going to yell at you.
47:24Amy Wilson:Not that his mom would yell it in and not throwing his mom out of the bus. But, you know, I'm not asking you. I'm not, you know, your mother, meaning I'm not trying to get you in trouble. But that instinct to be like, the answer is no, no gets me in trouble. So let me think of some other crazy answer. It's just like, we're on the same side. If you forgot to deposit the check, I also forgot to go to the post office yesterday. It's fine. Right. But yeah, lying is taking the heat down under lying and making it more like, hey, can we communicate about something without this being in our way? So kids lie for usually pretty good reasons.
47:58They're trying to stay out of trouble, even if it's obvious. And understanding that is the key to sort of moving past like, okay, you know, I want you to tell me the truth about coloring on the walls, but let's fix the wall. And it sort of takes the heat off lying because going back to my example in high school, like lies led to more lies. Like now there's no pasta dinner because I've created this whole repeated phone calls that I didn't have because it was harder to tell the truth than all of that. You want it to not be that hard for your kids. Not that my teacher was doing anything wrong.
48:29Amy Wilson:Or lies lead to, I would tell my kids, you know, I snuck out of the house. I told my parents I was going one place. I went somewhere else. I then found myself in a scary situation. And it was much more scary because nobody knew where I was. And that was scary. And I would have probably been better off, you know, negotiating with my parents to go versus putting myself in a bad position because I thought I was being so clever lying. Can I give one more piece of advice that I read that it was so good, I want to include it, that with kids, if you know, like you hear there was a party in the woods and you're pretty sure your kid was at it and there's like mud by the front door, right?
49:08Mud by the front door. That you can preamble because the whole point isn't you're going to test them and see if they lie or tell the truth. You want the truth, right? And so you can preamble with your kids. You can say, look, I'm going to ask you something and you are maybe going to have a hard time telling me the right answer. But I want you to know that your behavior isn't who you are. But I'm going to need you to tell me the truth, even if it's a really hard thing to tell me. Were you at the party last night? And that if you preamble it and give them a world in which telling the truth doesn't feel like this impossible thing, you're more likely to get to what you want, which is let's fix the situation instead of the fact that you lied about the situation.
49:45Amy Wilson:Yeah. And I think you can get very off course and find yourself as like angry detective lying suspect and when you find yourself in those roles right it's a back to one it's a kind of whoa we are very much on wrong sides of the fences and my whole relationship with you is like where were you really you liar that's a point to sit down and say let's talk about what's going on here you are not telling me anything about your life, I feel like I'm constantly in detective mode. It feels like it's putting us at cross purposes and putting us on opposite sides of the net as, you know, opponents. I would like us to get on the same side of the net so that you don't feel you need to lie as much.
50:29Amy Wilson:And I don't feel like my only relationship with you is catching you. That's right. Well said. Solved it. I was going to say no one's going to lie anymore. In fact, people are going to lie much more and we're going to like it. That's what we've really learned. We're going to give them truth checks. I'm going to try more truth checks in my house. Hey, What Fresh Health Plus, we haven't talked about that in a while, but What Fresh Health Plus is our subscription plan. You can always listen to this show for free. You'll always be able to listen to this show for free. If you want to get an ad free feed of every episode of this show ever, ever for the last nine years, plus very special monthly bonus episodes that are only for What Fresh Health Plus listeners.
51:09You can go to the link in the show notes for this episode or go to our website, whatfreshhealthpodcast.com. Sign up for What Fresh Health Plus. Two taps. It's five bucks a month and you can keep listening right where you already listen. You don't have to like download a special app and a thing and a thing. No, it's super, super simple. And consider being part of What Fresh Health Plus.
51:28Amy Wilson:you can learn a lot of hilarious and useless information about our inner lives that's right non-parenting non-parenting related episodes about our deepest truest silliest selves we'll see you over there at webfreshhell plus and thanks so much for listening thanks everybody
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From the publisher
Margaret and Amy discuss the surprisingly normal reasons kids lie—and why it’s not always a sign of bad behavior.
From toddlers covered in cake who swear they didn’t eat it, to teens who “forget” to mention that party in the woods, we unpack how lying is often a developmental milestone, not a moral failure.
We discuss:
When kids first start lying—and what brain developments make it possible
The role of theory of mind and executive function in fibbing
How to tell the difference between a harmless whopper and something more concerning
Why habitual lying could point to deeper issues—and how to address them without shame
The importance of “truth checks,” “consequence resets,” and staying on the same side of the net as your kid
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Jennifer Soong for WebMD: 8 Mistakes Parents Make With Preschoolers
Beth Arky for childmind.org: Why Kids Lie and What Parents Can Do About It
Harold S. Koplewicz, MD for childmind.org: When should you get help for a child who’s a habitual liar?
Sarah Gonser for Parents: A Parent's Guide to Lying and Age-Appropriate Consequences
Xiao Pan Ding et al for Hangzhou College of Preschool Education: Theory-of-Mind Training Causes Honest Young Children to Lie
Susan Pinker for Wall Street Journal: Children’s Lies Are a Sign of Cognitive Progress
Zawn Villines for Good Therapy: Why Do Children Lie? Normal, Compulsive, and Pathological Lying in Kids
Our Fresh Take with Harold Koplewicz
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