In short
Why kids melt down during holidays, framed as stress from disrupted routines, emotional overload, and unrealistic expectations; how parents can handle it with grace and planning.
Guests/backgrounds
Margaret and Amy (hosts). Guest mentioned: Joe Piazza, author/substack host of “Under the Influence,” who coined “wolf day” for the travel day when kids are off-schedule. Guest quoted: Melinda Wenner-Moyer, scientist and writer on why kids act out at holidays. Other experts quoted: UCLA clinical psychologist Catherine Mojell; psychologist Sarah Sitzma (routine definition); Tina Payne Bryson; psychologist Megan Devine; plus Melinda’s and others’ research.
Key claims
Holiday schedule changes remove routines that regulate emotion and reduce inflammation/behavior problems. Kids’ “emotional threshold” is breached by multiple small stressors (sleep, skipped meals, unfamiliar environments). Meltdowns aren’t “bad parenting” or “bad kids”; they’re real emotional moments or sometimes a learned way to escape situations.
Notable examples
surprise “cheese” chicken nuggets at a relative’s house; kids crying because “Christmas is ruined” or because they didn’t get (or did get) the desired gift; “fish” analogy for kids who don’t want the expected activity (bicycle riding); Thanksgiving lunch skipped leading toward meltdown.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Holiday Meltdowns
0:04 to 0:28
Discussing why kids misbehave during the holidays and the concept of 'wolf day'.
“It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.”
Understanding Holiday Meltdowns
0:57 to 4:19
Discussing why kids misbehave during the holidays and the concept of 'wolf day'.
“Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell?”
The Importance of Routines
4:19 to 6:01
Exploring how disrupted routines during the holidays lead to children's meltdowns.
“Like they also have that thing of this is going to be the best day of the year.”
Defining Routines for Kids
6:01 to 7:06
Defining what routines are and how they contribute to children's sense of security.
“She says, at this time of year, all of the things that we put in place to help children feel safe and secure and to know what to expect go out the window at this time of year.”
Holiday Changes and Their Impact
7:06 to 9:16
How changes during holidays contribute to children's behavioral issues.
“It can be things that caregivers initiate.”
Managing Expectations for Kids
9:16 to 12:30
Strategies to manage expectations and reduce pressure on children during holidays.
“And at the end of four days, my body was I could just feel it crying out to me like, please stop.”
Managing Expectations for Kids
12:43 to 13:42
Strategies to manage expectations and reduce pressure on children during holidays.
“When we come back, I want to say one more thing about routines, a little science you can use to back things up this year.”
Managing Expectations for Kids
13:47 to 14:02
Strategies to manage expectations and reduce pressure on children during holidays.
“That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash fresh for free shipping and 365-day returns.”
Managing Expectations for Kids
15:15 to 16:08
Strategies to manage expectations and reduce pressure on children during holidays.
“Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand.”
The Importance of Routines During Holidays
16:29 to 18:06
Discussing why routines are crucial for children's emotional regulation during the holidays.
“So routines, we've talked about why that's important.”
Show all 21 chapters
Managing Emotional Overload in Kids
18:06 to 19:38
Exploring the emotional pressures and expectations that children face during the holiday season.
“The better not pout, you better not cry.”
The Disappointment of Gifts
19:38 to 20:58
Understanding how children's expectations of gifts can lead to disappointment and emotional reactions.
“young women watching Catherine's wedding to William and they were like, God, she's the luckiest girl alive.”
Stress from Holiday Environments
20:58 to 22:43
Discussing the stress children experience in new environments during the holidays.
“One time my grandmother got me, she was so excited about this from like a craft fair.”
Understanding the Migraine Threshold
22:43 to 24:26
Exploring how a child's emotional threshold can be affected by stress and changes during holidays.
“your brother whatever that right well even for older kids like are you thinking about college It's like, well, I'm in eighth grade.”
Child Misbehavior at Holidays
24:26 to 27:48
Examining why children might misbehave during the holidays and the role of social dynamics.
“but it's because your threshold has been breached by a series of triggers that build on each other.”
Understanding Kids' Behavior During Holidays
28:00 to 29:32
Explore why children's behavior can change during family gatherings and the impact of social expectations.
“You're not weak because you're affected by other people's opinions.”
Managing Holiday Expectations
32:10 to 35:09
Discuss the unrealistic expectations of holiday celebrations and how to adapt them to our realities.
“Please arrive early to guarantee good seating.”
Planning for Different Kid Needs
35:09 to 38:19
Understand how to cater holiday experiences to children's unique needs and preferences.
“ruining it or they're ruining someone's version of it.”
Creating Routines During Holidays
38:19 to 42:00
Learn how to maintain routines during the holidays to help kids feel more secure and regulated.
“You don't want to sit in church for three hours, but my mom died.”
Managing Holiday Expectations with Kids
42:00 to 45:41
Learn how to have open conversations with your kids about holiday plans to avoid meltdowns.
“Maybe sitting around and opening presents for seven hours is not what your eight-year-old has in mind, you know?”
Encouraging Holiday Conversations
45:41 to 46:52
Discover the importance of discussing holiday traditions and expectations with family.
“Amy prepped it and I came in not knowing what we were even really talking about.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new.
0:06Amy Wilson:It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+.
0:27Amy Wilson:it's the worst possible combination what fresh hell laughing in the face of motherhood there's surprise cheese in there with margaret ables and amy wilson i got a fish guys they don't want to ride a bicycle a podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to my holiday threshold will not be breached if you just tell me what to expect ahead of time
0:57Amy Wilson:Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the Face of Mother. This is Margaret. And this is Amy. Today, we're talking about why kids can be at their worst at the holidays. Yeah. I mean, they can. That's all I have to say about it. I'm very familiar with the phenomenon. We often travel at the holidays, as do many people, which adds a whole nother layer of confusion and um yeah hit me because i got a lot to say about this so our friend joe piazza her podcast is called under the influence she's also an author she also has a hilarious substack she was talking in her substack about something called wolf day and that was particularly in relation to traveling at the holiday with kids which was the day the day that you travel and get there and everybody's off their schedules i mean time zone change or not and you just have to push through till bedtime, even though everybody's like more dead than alive, that it's wolf day and you give everybody a big, big pass.
1:53It's called wolf day because one of her children called it the worst day, like the worst day, but it sounded like she was saying wolf day. So it's wolf day and you have to give each other a pass.
2:02Amy Wilson:Yeah. I think that might be kind of where this episode is headed, but I do have a lot of research for you. Yeah. And I will say another headline that I could already anticipate is expectation management. Like it's the problem of this will be the most magical day any of us have ever lived through. We've talked about this with traveling too, right? Like, okay, we've spent 10 grand. We're going to Disneyland. Everybody better have the most magical, blessed day of their entire lives. Or we've wasted 10 grand. And it's pretty similar. Like you got a couple thousand dollars in travel gifts. You've got a lot of sunken costs going into it.
2:39Amy Wilson:And you also have your own, I think the holidays bring out very particularly like your own memories. The holidays are very much supposed to be one very specific way. Right. The way we never were, perhaps. But right. Maybe the way we never were. But certainly like the glossy bow on the car, gently falling snow, mom's cooking gingerbread. I'm Christmas oriented because I'm a Christmas celebrator. But whatever it happens to be, every night of Hanukkah must be, you know, a festival of lights. Whatever it is you're celebrating, you know how it's supposed to go, which is probably the first part of the problem.
3:23Right, right. And yet, so kids can sometimes be at their worst in those situations at your brother-in-law's at church on Christmas Eve in line to see Santa. Even kids who are generally pretty easygoing and even keeled just go feral, right? They fall apart at the most unexpected times. And as you're saying, it's at the moment that you are trying to get the Christmas card photo. You are going to visit grandma, whatever. It's things that are important to you that you have stress and expectations around. Your stress is feeding into it. And anyway, it leads to a sort of a crucible to go back to my high school chemistry class.
4:04It's an interesting little test tube under some heat where some stuff is happening. But none of it is because you're a bad parent and your kid is a terrible kid.
4:12Amy Wilson:And kids, especially once, even when they're four or five, they have their own story about how magical it should be. Like they also have that thing of this is going to be the best day of the year. And that is a lot of pressure that a kid is putting on themselves too. Like they're doing the same thing we're doing, which is Christmas is the best day of the year. Right. And so anything that gets in the way of that, I keep referencing Christmas, but like this holiday, this day, this week is so special. And if it doesn't go a very specific way, it's kind of ruined for the whole year. And we blew it.
4:50So Melinda Wenner-Moyer, who is a guest on the pod. I mean, everybody's been on our podcast this morning. Exactly.
4:56Amy Wilson:At this point, if you haven't been on the podcast, write us a letter. I believe we've had everyone on. She has a great sub stack. And I actually set aside this article a few years ago, like, oh, this is a great episode. And somehow we never talked about it. But it was about why kids are the worst at the holidays. So I'm going to link to her sub stack in the show notes because it led me to some really good research on this topic. But here's her thesis for you. And she's a scientist, guys. So this is coming from a scientist. The holidays are when kids act out the most and it isn't your fault. That's her thesis.
5:28I love that thesis. I think it's easily provable and we're going to we're going to do it.
5:32Amy Wilson:Can I add one comma to that? It's also not their fault. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Not your fault. Not their fault. Not their fault. That's right. Right. So lead with grace. All right. So let's get into the reasons why this is happening, because they're actually kind of specific and there's developmental psychology underpinning it. So the number one reason experts say that the holidays are when kids fall apart is because their routines are getting disrupted. So this is UCLA clinical psychologist, Catherine Mojell. She says, at this time of year, all of the things that we put in place to help children feel safe and secure and to know what to expect go out the window at this time of year.
6:14She says, you know, humans and kids in particular rely on routines for a sense of safety and predictability. And by routines, we don't mean rituals like we read a Christmas carol on Christmas Eve and leave cookies for Santa or we light them in a aura. routines. We go to bed at seven o 'clock. We have this for breakfast. Two stories. Right. Exactly. So let's define routines. Let's get really scientific and define routines. This is Sarah Sitzma's definition of routines. She's a psychologist. Routines are observable, repetitive behaviors, which directly involve the child and at least one adult acting in an interactive or supervisory role and which occur with predictable regularity in the daily or weekly life of the child.
6:57So like brushing your teeth while mom stands there to make sure you get the back teeth. That's a routine. Right. It doesn't have to be magical or special. It's just what you do every day. Yeah. It can be things that caregivers initiate. It can be things that kids initiate. It can be I have my blankie and I sleep on this pillow with this cheek down. I certainly have routines for my bedtime that I like to observe. You're cute. That go out the window. I like to pillow.
7:26Amy Wilson:Yep, exactly. This eye shade that I like. Exactly. And kids would never argue this, but school is a huge part of that routine. You get up at a certain time, even if you're homeschooling. There's a ritual and a routine to the day that completely disappears at one of the most heightened times of the year. For two weeks, right. It goes from like, and then you go off a cliff and there's nothing. That's right. Mealtimes is another routine and what serves and what it's served on and what it looks like and broccoli, how you make it and not how your father-in-law makes it, right? These are routines that are being - The chicken nuggets have the right shape.
8:02One time, my father-in-law, I mean, he still hasn't lived it down. He went to the, he knew his grandchildren were coming for Christmas and he went to the supermarket and he brought home dinosaur chicken nuggets that had cheese in the middle. Because he just grabbed, I don't know why those exist. Is he still in the family? He's still in the shock. He slept on a pan forever. He brought cheese. So imagine when my picky eater kid bites into a chicken nugget and there's surprise cheese in there. That did not go well for any of us.
8:34Amy Wilson:First of all, whoever made those chicken nuggets is a monster. What were you thinking? You were setting father-in-law for failure. The minute you sat in a boardroom and said, let's put cheese in these things. Cheese in the middle. You sealed father-in-law's fate. And as you said before, holiday days, days away from school, tend to have no particular structure whatsoever. You've seen the meme of, right, this is me, full of cheese, unsure what day it is, that way that you feel. So that's kind of fun when you're a grown-up. And if you need a sense of routine, you can check your iPhone calendar for how empty it is.
9:12But kids maybe feel a little more unmoored without that.
9:15Amy Wilson:Well, that's true. Even we just celebrated Thanksgiving. And at the end of four days, my body was I could just feel it crying out to me like, please stop. For the love of God, please stop. Nothing in my system was responding correctly. I have I got a trick hip, Amy. I'm at a certain age. The trick hip was going. The inflammation was off. Everything was not sleeping well. I just I would sleep eight hours and wake up feeling like I got hit by a truck. Like this happens to all of us. And that's right. Really hard. I mean, I struggle with it as a very grown adult. That's right. So I'm going to quote Tina Payne Bryson.
9:53She says, anytime something changes in a kid's environment, you can see an explosion of behavioral stuff. That's really just them expressing their stress from that transition. And she's not even talking about the holidays here. She's talking about transitions of, you know, parents getting divorced and the kid is to live in a different house at the time now, whatever, or new school. These are transitions. And so the holidays, we think of them as cozy, fall back into routines and stay in your pajamas all day. But they are a big change and even little changes like staying up later, like sleeping in later.
10:28You know, they can create what starts as a like unease and anxiety that is under the surface and then can bubble up. Yes. Also for us. Oh, for sure.
10:40Amy Wilson:For sure. For sure. And speaking to kids who have autism on the spectrum, ADHD, so much harder. These kids are even more invested often, I'm speaking broadly, in their routines. They also, I think, have sometimes of an underlying story. I am the person who messes stuff up because I can't handle it emotionally. I'm the person who cries when we're supposed to be having a good time. I'm the person who wants to be in my room when everyone's gathered for Thanksgiving. and having an amazing time. I have talked to my kids more as I started to realize this after doing the podcast, that taking time beforehand and being like, what are our expectations?
11:22Amy Wilson:What's hard about this for you? What does it look like? Because I think the pressure on kids with special needs becomes more like your only job is to not ruin it for the rest of us. And that's a really bad, I shouldn't say bad because God knows I've done it. But like, that's a really dangerous place to start a story with your kid, that your only job is not to ruin the fun for everybody else. Yeah. And so you're going to enter into an unpredictable situation with unclear expectations that seem to move around. We were supposed to have had dinner already and dinner still not ready. Whatever, whatever is happening.
12:02And don't mess up in a situation without certainty in any way. That would be heartbreaking.
12:07Amy Wilson:We cite that Gary Larson cartoon all the time. It's a kid and it says like he's saying, don't mess up, don't mess up, don't mess up. And it's like Bobby. And then the caption is Bobby messes up and he only has one symbol in his hands. And it's like, I just that thing of like, oh, my gosh, I don't mess up. It's like you're just setting everybody up for failure. Yes. We'll talk more as we head to conclusions. But like, what are your actual abilities? What are your actual needs? Because let's try to make it so that there's no such thing as messing up. Right. Changing the expectations. All right. Let's take a break.
12:43When we come back, I want to say one more thing about routines, a little science you can use to back things up this year. So I just did the closet swap, right? I got out all my summer clothes and I immediately thought, huh, a lot of this I didn't really like last summer either. So you know what I did, I headed straight to Quince. Quince offers a wide range of high quality essentials, but
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16:18Amy Wilson:That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code laughing. So routines, we've talked about why that's important. It makes sense that it's important. It's pretty hard. And we've definitely talked about this year how it can be hard when you get to your husband's aunt's house. What do you mean you're leaving at 8 p.m. so the kids can get in bed? It's Christmas. You know, whatever that that you're ruining it. Right. Right. Always ruining it. Here's some science for you. So there was a study. Saleha Salman and Janine Dilworth-Bart for the Journal of Family Theory and Review just last year.
16:57They studied kids going through a wide range of adverse experiences, aces, some very serious, some more like, you know, I moved to a new town. But just they're struggling with something and the importance of routines as a daily protective factor. Simple routines. Like I said, like we brush our teeth with the same toothbrush and then we listen to a song. The takeaway of this was consistent routines were associated for kids with better emotion regulation, lower inflammation in their bodies, fewer behavioral problems, and lower stress across the entire family system. So routines are a really strong protective against uncertainty.
17:38Yes. And when we blow them up for a week, two weeks, we're removing a protective factor that our kids always depend on for emotional regulation.
17:50Amy Wilson:It goes to me to your what can you add? What can you take away? Yeah. Adding all the stress to the holidays and you're taking away all the routines like it's the worst possible combination. That's a good point. So there is science backing this up that kids need routines at this time of year. Let's talk about the next issue that comes up is the emotional overload and the expectations around the emotions. The better not pout, you better not cry. I'm telling you why. That elf is watching you guys. He is a spy. I grew up a little worried that somebody could be looking in the window from the North Pole at any moment.
18:24But now I feel like we've put that in the kids' houses. I guess there is somebody here watching you every day who daily reports. Goes back.
18:31Amy Wilson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of stress. When you say it out loud, it's pretty crazy. I'm not going to lie. So there's pressure for the kids to get it right. Be extra good. Meet expectations even when they're off their routines. I had a kid who would be on the regular crying around December 21st that this was the year they had blown it. That they were, in fact, not going to get anything. Because they weren't good. Not for me. Because I have not. Right. And as the morning drew nearer, the anxiety would really ramp up. And, you know, I tried to be as reassuring as I could, but I mostly was like, this is what it is.
19:04It's anxiety building. Then there's the conflicting emotions. You said something before about the kid also has in their mind that I'm going to get that new bike and it's going to be the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm going to get that American Girl doll of the year or whatever. And like my life will change. and then either they don't get it, which is terribly disappointing, or they do get it. And then by 1030 on Christmas morning, there's this, right, this overwhelming ennui that you are still the same person, even though you got that bike you wanted. Yeah.
Read the full transcript
19:38Amy Wilson:I mean, it's kind of the big rule of, I think I've said before that I was with some young women watching Catherine's wedding to William and they were like, God, she's the luckiest girl alive. And I'm like, no, she's definitely not. The idea that there is some secret portal to happiness that comes either through marrying a prince or getting, you know, Josie's Country Kitchen, as was the greatest gift ever when we were little, or an Easy Bake Oven, or an Xbox, or whatever it happens to be, a la boo boo, whatever people are into right now. the kids want. Yeah. The spoiler is that you're not going to actually feel happy when you get that gift.
20:17Amy Wilson:There's a saying in 12-step programs that you have a God-shaped hole, whether or not you believe in God. It's a higher power-shaped hole and that you're trying to fill it with gambling or alcohol or whatever it is. And that toys and gifts and Christmas presents, Hanukkah presents, they are God-shaped hole problems. Like it's a longing-shaped hole somehow that the labubu cannot outfill. Yeah. So I'm going to quote Melinda Wenner-Moyer here. She says that disappointment when your kid doesn't get what they want or they do get what they want, they cry, whatever. That doesn't mean that they're a bad kid.
20:50It means they're having a real emotional moment that they don't yet know how to process because there's this intense Klieg light. One time my grandmother got me, she was so excited about this from like a craft fair. She got me a broom that was made to look like a doll, like a lady. And so they put like a head on it, But there's still, you know, it's still a broom. It sounds terrible. But the bottom of it is a doll. And yes, and I think I was about three and I, you know, cried and said, I don't want a doll with a stick coming out of its head and just, you know, had a Titanic meltdown on Christmas morning.
21:26And you can kind of look back like, yeah, I can see why maybe the three-year-old didn't want that. But she had really been excited about it. So then she was disappointed that I was disappointed.
21:34Amy Wilson:And it's a lot. I could do you one better. my grandmother crocheted hand crocheted uh santa doll that had like bells on its arms like it was stretchy you could like stretch it out and gave it to my brother and he was so frightened of it he was probably more like six or seven he was terrified of it he was screaming i don't want it in the room and it was that kind of hugely embarrassing moment where she's worked for like 900 hours to make this thing. She's finally presented it. He's screaming in terror. And then when she tried to leave several hours later, he ran after her and he was like, you forgot this.
22:11Amy Wilson:And he handed her back the crochet doll. I'm re-gifting this to you. Don't leave this terrifying item with me. I literally hate it. Then there is the actual, the stress. So the anticipation is stress, but also like the stress and overwhelm of the environment unfamiliar people in places uh uncle bobby smells funny there's a dog that barks and you don't have a dog at your house you know new environment right you're sharing a bed with your cousin who you don't like that much everything about it is tough the forced gauntlet of like oh what grade are you in now and none are you playing basketball like your brother whatever that right well even for older kids like are you thinking about college It's like, well, I'm in eighth grade.
22:55Amy Wilson:Like, leave me alone, please. Or they are thinking about college and they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about it. Right. Have you ever heard about the migraine threshold? I have not. Okay. So this relates, but it made me think of the migraine threshold working on this episode. The belief is that all of us have a threshold above which we could get a terrible migraine headache. Like, for me, if I drink like a bottle of champagne, I'm in trouble the next day. Right. Not that I've done it, but I can. That's why I don't. And I can see that would pass my migraine threshold. And of course, for some people who get migraines, which I have people in my family who do, the threshold is lower than maybe yours or mine.
23:31But we all have it somewhere. So your threshold is here. And as long as you stay below the threshold, you're not going to get a migraine. But you do get a migraine when things go above the threshold. And it's usually not one thing. It's usually a couple of things at once. So imagine like your threshold is here. You don't have a headache. But then you have a super stressful day. and then you sit up late worrying about it, which means you didn't get enough sleep. And then you didn't eat lunch the next day because you had two meetings in a row. Bam, migraine threshold. And then you drank a bottle of champagne.
24:00And then you drank a bottle of champagne. I guess I could have left that out, right? If you're the kind of person who gets migraines, not having a good night's sleep and then skipping lunch can be enough to trigger it for you. My point is your mileage may vary. And if you have a kid who's anxious or neurodivergent or just high-strung, their threshold to have a meltdown is a little lower maybe, but all of us have that threshold. All of us have been sent around the bend by something about something that's small, but it's because your threshold has been breached by a series of triggers that build on each other.
24:34Amy Wilson:Right. And this is all reminding me of Thanksgiving where I would have, you know, 18 people for bagel breakfast and then we would eat and then like my kids wouldn't have lunch. They're not used to just being like, we're going to cut a meal out of the day because we're going to have bagels in the morning and then Thanksgiving dinner at five. And at noon, they were like, what's for lunch? I'm like, there's no lunch. It's Thanksgiving. We don't eat lunch. But I have three teenagers. They were actually hungry. And even our own routines are like that. Like, I can't make you lunch. I've got to do dinner for 19 in 10 minutes.
25:07Amy Wilson:You know, you don't realize you're pushing them towards a threshold. Like, go talk to weird Uncle Bob. I can't feed you lunch. Like you've just hit two steps on the threshold. Yeah. And the migraine threshold is there are things you can do to try to raise your migraine threshold, like practice mindfulness and get enough sleep and don't eat blue cheese. And but your threshold is kind of something. It's set. It's kind of set. Exactly. And I think that's true for people, too, in terms of emotional regulation. You can work on it, but some some kids threshold is going to be lower than others. Oh, for sure.
25:42Amy Wilson:And I think this is going back to our earlier conversation that like I might have 20 steps in my migrant threshold, but a kid on the spectrum might have one or two. They're very close to that line. And you've already moved to a different place. You're serving different food. You're skipping meal. Like it takes nothing to that threshold. Right. So keeping in mind that threshold and how close you are to it. And again, like when you were saying before, like we're skipping lunch. You know, my husband eats all day long. We've discussed this before. And so he, I mean, to be clear, he eats very healthy food all day long.
26:16Amy Wilson:He doesn't eat all day long like chips on the couch. You need to eat all day long when it's like tofu and black beans. He has like three almonds every 10 minutes. It's not like he's like eating all day long. Time for another pizza. Yeah. Yeah. So when we were going to somebody else's house for Thanksgiving and we're supposed to eat at this time, but it might actually be at that time. He prepared, you know, he brought himself a little like traveling lunch because he. yeah, an eight year old can't be what if I don't like the food that they might be thinking about that, but not like, let me just make myself a healthy, you know, quinoa bowl before we go.
26:50Amy Wilson:And also not to goof on your husband, but like, this is a good thing to remember. He's a grown up who does not want to change his routine for a day, you know, like he's not five, but he doesn't want to change his routine for the day. That's true. We forget that like a five year old might feel the same way. Like, it's like, hey, for you, we're going to skip lunch and we're just going to do this meal that maybe you only like the rolls at in 10 hours. We have to remember that it seems very reasonable for your husband to do that, but it might seem it might not seem reasonable to our grandma that your six year old needs to do that.
27:25Amy Wilson:Right. I feel like if you're like, well, my husband has this eating pattern, so he's going to snack or he can hide it or whatever. Grandma is not going to weigh in on that. But give that same grace that your husband is giving to himself and you're giving to your husband to not your six-year-old, but like, yeah, to the imagined six-year-old in this scenario. Lastly, I do want to give a little airtime to the idea that sometimes kids do misbehave at the holidays, not because their threshold has been breached or because they need to be understood, but because acting out can be sometimes a very good way to get your way, to get out of a situation you don't want to be.
28:00Amy Wilson:Especially when there's other relatives around, because you know we are performative at our very base instincts and so if little jimmy at home is like i hate you i won't eat this i'm like all right go to your room full like we'll deal with it later if little jimmy does that in front of my mother-in-law it's a very different dynamic right suddenly everyone thinks i'm a bad parent how could your kids say you hate you how why isn't he eating what he's supposed to the three people in the corner are like well my kids always ate exactly what they were served. You're not weak because you're affected by other people's opinions.
28:36Amy Wilson:You're affected by other people's opinions because we're social animals who live to please others to stay in the tribe. That's right. That's right. I'm going to quote psychologist Megan Devine here. When kids don't know how to handle their problems appropriately, they'll use whatever inappropriate trick they have at hand to get their way. And misbehavior can sometimes be an effective shortcut. Like I'm tired of being at Aunt Amy's house. So I'm like, watch this. I'm going to blow my top and we are going to get out of here. I'm going to 11. Right. And maybe they do. I mean, I've certainly been in the room when kids are like, when are we leaving?
29:16Can we go home? Can we go home? And the parents are like, pretty soon, pretty soon, ignoring them entirely. And then the threshold gets breached, right? And now it's a four alarm fire.
29:26Amy Wilson:I have a lot of thoughts about some ways that I figured out how to help this dynamic. So let's take a break and we'll be back. Being a mom means putting other people's feelings and needs above your own pretty much 100 % of the time. But our own needs and feelings matter. They need attention. That's why there's therapy, which is something anyone can benefit from no matter what their current situation is, and that is why there's Rula. Rula provides in-network covered mental health care for most major insurance plans. The average copay for Rula patients is$15, and depending on your benefits, your copay could be$0 per session.
30:06Rula partners with a network of over 23 ,000 therapists and psychiatrists nationwide, enabling you to find the right therapist based on your needs, preference, and state requirements.
30:17Amy Wilson:RULA is committed to helping you reach your therapy goals by carefully screening providers, monitoring quality of care, and supporting your progress throughout your journey. With a diverse set of licensed, experienced professionals, they make it easy to get the care you need. Take it from us, therapy is worth it. And thousands of parents are already using RULA to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance and helping them and their families. And so can you. Visit Rula.com slash WFH to get started. That's R-U-L-A.com slash WFH. You know, it's that time of year when I'm usually driving with two pairs of glasses, my prescription glasses, plus regular sunglasses over them, because otherwise I'll burn my retinas.
31:04But this year I gave myself a summertime glow up with new prescription sunglasses from Zenni. I love this for you, Amy.
31:12Amy Wilson:At Zenni.com, you can get prescription glasses, sunglasses, blue light lenses, all starting at under$30. Go to Zenni.com, pick a frame, upload your prescription, and they'll ship it to your door. No appointment, no going to the store, no upsell at the counter. Sure. I also used Zenni's virtual try-on to see exactly how my new tortoiseshell square sunglasses would look on my face before I ordered them. Let me tell you, they looked super cute on the virtual try-on and super cute in person. And with frames at under$30, I got a second pair just because. If your glasses are overdue for a refresh, now is the time.
31:50Amy Wilson:Go to zenni.com slash podcast and use code podcast15 for 15 % off your first order. These styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z-E-N-N-I dot com slash podcast promo code podcast15. And now, things you don't want to see on any invitation ever. From the What Fresh Health podcast. It's the holiday pageant. There are 19 acts and your kid is last. Please arrive early to guarantee good seating. There will be a gift exchange. Please bring a thoughtful present to exchange. No other information will be provided at this time. Please wear a costume that captures the spirit of the Renaissance. Please, no kids.
32:39All kids are welcome. We're going to the trampoline park with the two-year-olds from 2 p.m. until 6 p.m. Dinner will be served at 9 p.m.
32:49Amy Wilson:This year's dress code is high-end festive casual. This event occurs exactly at your child's nap time. It's a destination wedding. Clear a week on your calendar to help us celebrate. This event occurs exactly at your child's nap time. This has been things you don't want to see on an invitation ever. From the What Fresh Hell podcast. this idea of the holidays often gets bigger than the realities of our personal families and lives and so the holidays are going to be the Folgers commercial where we all joyfully sit around the tree and we have our presence every single night at Hanukkah or whatever our holiday is we're always picturing a version that has only happened to us through a television screen you know it's a A beautiful version.
33:41Amy Wilson:We've put, as we've said, hours of work. We've done the Christmas cards. We've made everyone something special. We've hand ordered everyone an iPad case with their name on it and their favorite character. We've done all this work. And the pressure for it to go well is so extreme that we set ourselves up for failure. And I think it is really important to say to ourselves and our families, what do we like about the holidays? What are we trying to accomplish? And also, you often say parent the kids you have, holiday the kids you have, right? You may have a kid, there are kids on the spectrum, who have no interest in gifts at all.
34:23Amy Wilson:They're just not into the concept. They don't care. What could make their holiday special? You know what I mean? Like, what is it that they need? And it might be that kid might need to sit quietly in another room and watch their iPad while the rest of you open presents. And that's ruining Christmas for absolutely nobody, right? It isn't like nobody can open presents or this kid has to tolerate sitting there because what do you mean he's not going to sit there? Like both people can have the holiday that they want. It's ruining Christmas for nobody, for absolutely nobody, if we have set some expectations around it.
34:55Amy Wilson:But if we go to open presents, the kid's having a meltdown. They're not going to be in the room. And then Aunt Amy's like, what do you mean they're not going to be in the room? It's not Christmas if we're not all together. Then they kind of are ruining it or they're ruining someone's version of it. I'm very, very sensitive to the idea of a kid who is a fish being asked to ride a bicycle. And then their story is, I suck for not being able to ride the bicycle. And then the whole family story is this is so sad that they can't ride a bicycle. Christmas would be so much better if we could all ride our bicycles together.
35:33Amy Wilson:I got a fish, guys. They don't want to ride a bicycle. I'm sorry. But we have to talk to the fish about that in advance. And we have to talk to the whole family about it in advance. And maybe most importantly, we have to talk to ourselves about it in advance. That's right. What is this going to look like? There's nothing wrong with a fish who doesn't want to ride a bicycle. There's something different about that. You know, 600 of us are bicycle riders and one of us is a fish. And so the whole thing makes it feel like the holiday is all about putting a giant lens on our fish because they don't want to ride a bicycle.
36:06Amy Wilson:And that feeling feels terrible for the kid, the fish. It feels terrible for the mom who's like, something's wrong with my kid. My kid can't do the thing that is expected on this day. I think that some of that sadness is inherent because maybe you have your own ideas that Christmas or Hanukkah is a bicycle riding holiday. And so that's some work for us to do for ourselves. But if you wait to address it on Christmas morning, when it's already happening, it's a million times worse. I think that people are getting a lot better at understanding that like there is such a thing as a sensory sensitive child for whom 10 people screaming over gifts in a room with blinking lights and blaring, you know, holiday music is a really, really hard dynamic that they don't want to be part of.
36:59Amy Wilson:And even though it's 60 people's idea of the greatest time ever, that doesn't mean they're wrong for not wanting it. Totally agree. And I also think that can sometimes get over applied in today's world that say a kid, a fifth grader. Again, I think it's expectations, set expectations ahead of time. We're going to go into grandma's house. We're going to spend about 20 minutes with the adults and they're all going to ask you how school is going and how you like baseball. And I'm going to want you to be really nice, especially to Uncle Bob, who remember his wife died earlier this year. We're going to spend some time with him and you're going to be very, and you can ask him if you want about the Green Bay Packers because he loves to talk about the Green Bay Packers.
37:41And I want you to do that for about 20 minutes and then you can go off and play with your cousins. But you're going to, you're going to do this first, or then we're going to have dinner. Grandma's going to have her fancy table decorated and you're going to come sit at the table. And if you don't want to eat something, you don't have to, but you're going to sit there and we're going to have Christmas together and you can sit there for a little while. And then after about 15 minutes, you can say, mom, may I be excused? And I'll say yes. and you can go play with your cousins. You know what I mean?
38:04That there has to be also built in a little bit of that.
38:06Amy Wilson:There's a spectrum. And so you may have a kid who really cannot sit at the table. That's difficult. It's something we're working on, but not this year. Maybe next year they'll be at the table with us. Not this year. We've been working on it. You know, I think about like funerals or difficult situations. You don't want to sit in church for three hours, but my mom died. You're doing it. Like, you know, spectrum, no spectrum, but you still have to have a conversation. This is not going to be comfortable for you. You're going to be wearing itchy, weird black clothes. It's going to be at a church for an hour and a half.
38:36Amy Wilson:Then you're going to be sitting at a reception. Let's make a plan. But this is what's happening. I think that's right. You don't want to let kids off the hook, but you also don't want to set kids up for failure. You know where your kid is on that spectrum. Right. And also, by the way, any given Tuesday, any kid is at a very different place on that spectrum. Any given holiday, you know, sometimes kids wake up and they're having the greatest day and sometimes they're, but like, what is it? Do we need snacks? Do we need to not skip breakfast because we're busy opening presents? Let's not just throw ourselves into this extremely stressful and difficult situation because we don't want to acknowledge it's stressful and difficult because we've been told by every song and special for our entire lives that it is in fact the most wonderful time of the year.
39:23Well, there's a very concrete, easy thing you can do here, which is just add back in some routines. You can't have all of them. Obviously, you're sleeping at your sister's house and the kids are all in one room. But what can you do? Maybe you put the kid in the car seat and you go for a drive till they fall asleep. So at least they get a little nap in the afternoon. Maybe you say we're going to go for a walk after breakfast or I'm going to go in the other room and we're going to sit and read some of the stories that he likes to read. There are things you can do to reset. And they are as easy as make sure they get a little taste of what they do at home.
39:53Pick something and stick to it. And then it can be something different the next day. But the more routines you can keep consistent, the more regulated kids tend to be.
40:03Amy Wilson:We went, I remember, to my in-laws for the first Christmas. I think I was pregnant. I was hormonal. I hadn't really thought about it. I was like, it's Christmas. And I just went to their house. I don't think I've ever spent Christmas at a boyfriend's house. I think it was the first time I was ever at someone else's house for Christmas. And we're big Christmas people. Like, we do it a very specific way. We do it up, all growing up, blah, blah, blah. We go to my in-laws house and in our house, Christmas kind of lasts all day. We kind of do wine and like, oh, let's exchange gifts and snacks. It's very much like an all day thing.
40:35Amy Wilson:I went to my in-laws house and they open all their presents first thing in the morning and like, don't take turns. They just like go down and like, everyone opens presents. And by like nine o 'clock in the morning, everything was open and Christmas was over. And I went into the room and And I cried for like half an hour. I was so upset. And by the way, this is not a knock on my in-laws. It's a knock on myself that I'm like a four-year-old. Like I was crying like this is a real Christmas. I was 40 at the time. Like I was old enough to know better. But still for me, it was like Christmas is one thing and you strayed from what it is.
41:12Amy Wilson:And I just couldn't believe how emotional I was about it. And I try to really keep that in mind with my own kids. It's like your husband with his snacks. Like we make adjustments for ourselves. We feel these things ourselves, but we somehow think that the Santa of it all and the jolly of it all and the you're out of school of it all solves every problem for our kids. And we forget like they need, they want it to be special and they're very dysregulated by the whole thing. And so I think the more you can plan ahead of like, let's keep a timer and every 10 minutes we'll take a break. if it's getting too much for you.
41:51Amy Wilson:Let's plan to go for a run. I mean, this is totally not me, but like, let's plan to go on a run at 11 or go to the playground and get our energy out. Yeah. Maybe sitting around and opening presents for seven hours is not what your eight-year-old has in mind, you know? Right, right. Outside, bundle up and get them outside. Yeah, go under some rocks, even though it's December. That's right. That would really help with a kid that needs a little reset. Like, let's go play with your gifts and let's set up the Xbox. Show it to me. Like part of their joy is sharing it and having a conversation about this in advance is going to solve a lot of the problems.
42:27Amy Wilson:What are we worried about? What are we looking forward to the most? I mean, this is something if you don't talk about, what is the most important part of Christmas for you? You might be surprised. I love when we eat, finally eat the gingerbread house, whatever it is. You might be surprised by the answer. You're thinking the only thing they care about is that Xbox under the tree. I don't even know if they make Xboxes anymore, but they do. They're getting smaller. You're pretty sure that like, if you put that labubu in the stocking, everything's going to go great. Have you talked about that? You don't have to say what they're getting and like, okay, first you're going to open this.
43:03Amy Wilson:You don't have to prepare them for every moment. Also, they may not know. They may say, all I care about is the labubu and then they're crying five minutes later. But I think being ready for, staying light on your feet, I think. and like being able to pivot and improvise and not getting locked into like every Christmas at 7 a.m. we see the tree you know we have done holidays with people whose kids are not early birds and we traditionally do like everyone's up at 6 30 and we go to see the tree at 7 okay let's move it to 9 30 I don't care right you know like I do care I guess I think when it first comes up I'm like well but the tree happens at 7 right I just said I don't care and I realized that was a huge lie.
43:46Just last year, I was totally mad at my family because, of course, I had done all the wrapping and the shopping and I got it all ready. I was exhausted when we got home on Christmas Eve, but I made sure everybody's presents were under the tree. And then I got up at seven and started making the coffee. And there had been a decision made without telling me that we were going to wait because my kids are big now. We'll all wake up at 9, 9, 30 and do presents in, but nobody had told me and I had done 100 % of the prep work and then got up and got everything, you know, got the coffee out and the, you know, Danish and then I was alone and I was so upset.
44:21And it was because you're upset. That's terrible. But if all we needed was to be on the same page ahead of time.
44:26Amy Wilson:Yeah, that's right. Like so many things we talk about on the podcast. You don't want to acknowledge that your marriage sucks. You don't want to acknowledge that your kid is failing out of high school. You don't want to acknowledge that your college plan is completely unrealistic. You don't want to acknowledge that your five-year-old has some sort of burgeoning sensory issue that you don't understand. And so your instinct is just stick your fingers in your ears and sing Holly Jolly Christmas and just keep moving. And also it's super busy. I'm sure your family was not like, let's not tell Amy about our play.
44:58Amy Wilson:No, they're like, what do you mean? We all talked about it. Right. They were on the crazy holiday train. And at some point they were in a car together and be like, oh, let's just sleep in tomorrow. We don't need to wake up. But they didn't tell you, not because they're evil people, because they were on the crazy train, as we all are. And this is the time, like, you got to start two weeks out, you got to start having these conversations. Get on the same page. And maybe I would have been like, what do you mean we're going to sleep in? But I know it's happening. And then I can, my holiday threshold will not be breached if you just tell me what to expect ahead of time.
45:28There you go.
45:29Amy Wilson:Let's stay away from the migraine threshold. Friends, if you have anyone in your life who celebrates a holiday, you should share this episode with them. That's right. I actually really enjoyed this episode. Amy prepped it and I came in not knowing what we were even really talking about. And I feel like it really helped me out. Like, I'm actually going to do this. I'm actually going to sit down with my kids who are now teenagers and say, do we want to wake up at 7 a.m. still? Do we want to do this? What do we want for the meal? What do we want this to look like? What's important about it? What's not important about it?
46:02Amy Wilson:another part of this conversation, we're now at the point where you want like a laptop. That's the only gift you're getting. You know, when you were little, you got 45 things that were all, you know, under$10. If you're asking for a laptop, that's your gift. You're done. You know, I just realized as I'm saying it out loud, like I haven't said that to them, but I've said to myself, listen, if we're getting something expensive, we're not getting a million other things. I better tell them that. Yeah. Because otherwise here comes tears. Yep. More communication and a little more routine where you can find it around the edges.
46:35And this will really, I think, help. It will really actually help. Also, you're not a bad parent and they're not bad kids.
46:41Amy Wilson:Share this episode either by sharing it from your app, posting about it on your social media, or literally just telling your friend, hey, you should check out this episode of What Fresh Hell? It was really helpful about the holidays. And with that, go have those conversations tonight, friends, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody.
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From the publisher
Why is the "most wonderful time of the year" also the time, all too often, when our kids are at their worst?
Drawing on research from child psychologists, developmental experts, and real-life family dynamics, Amy and Margaret explore this extremely familiar dynamic, and explain how disrupted routines, sensory overload, anxiety, social expectations, and good old-fashioned exhaustion collide to push kids past their emotional thresholds.
They discuss:
How blown-up routines remove a key emotional “protective factor” for kids
Why holiday excitement + uncertainty creates anxiety (for kids and adults)
The “migraine threshold” analogy for understanding meltdowns
How neurodivergent kids experience holiday environments differently
Why expectations—ours and theirs—fuel disappointment
When misbehavior is emotional dysregulation vs. strategic escape
How to rethink traditions so they actually work for the kids you have
Practical ways to add back small routines, reduce overwhelm, and prepare kids ahead of time
If holiday gatherings feel harder than they “should,” this episode offers compassion, insight, and doable strategies to help every kid (and parent) get through the season with less stress.
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Selman, S. B., & Dilworth-Bart, J. E. (2024). “Routines and child development: A systematic review.” Journal of Family Theory & Review
Amhefferan for In the Now Counseling blog: Why Do Kids Misbehave On Holidays?
Howcast: How to Handle Your Child’s Holiday Stress with Dr. Robin Goodman
Melinda Wenner Moyer on Substack: Why Do my Kids Turn Into Monsters Over the Holidays?
Melinda Wenner Moyer for Slate: Better Not Pout, Better Not Cry
Melinda Wenner Moyer on Substack: Managing the Post-Holiday "Why Are My Kids Acting Like This?" Slump
Megan Devine for Empowering Parents: How to Manage Tantrums, Misbehavior, and Meltdowns During the Holidays
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Margaret Ables and Amy Wilson.
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
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