In short
Why friendships stall and how to fix it, focusing on post-pandemic “friendship recession,” loss of micro-interactions, decline of third places, and the need for a more diverse “friend portfolio” plus low-friction ways to reconnect.
Guests
Margaret Aples and Amy Wilson (hosts of What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood). They cite research by Dr. Marlene Bauer (loneliness researcher, University of Sydney), Daniel Cox (Survey Center on American Life), and Hannah Collins (UCLA Anderson School of Management). They also discuss Kathleen Walsh’s article in The Cut (New York Magazine).
Key claims
In-person socializing dropped (American Time Use Survey). Micro interactions (hi’s at yoga/coffee shops) matter. Loneliness correlates with fewer close friends; diversity of social contacts predicts well-being more than total time. Text/emoji-only contact can keep warmth but doesn’t replace in-person.
Notable examples
“Can we set a date for January?” group dinners that never happen; using voice memos; “open door hours” (Sunday night); grabbing coffee with small time windows; joining community events/clubs to meet people.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMailbag Thank You Letter
0:01 to 0:21
Margaret and Amy discuss a listener's thank you letter about navigating challenges with a child with additional needs.
“That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now.”
Mailbag Thank You Letter
1:08 to 2:58
Margaret and Amy discuss a listener's thank you letter about navigating challenges with a child with additional needs.
“Today we're talking about why it feels impossible to make plans with anybody and how you can fix that.”
The Challenge of Planning with Friends
2:58 to 4:00
Discussion on the difficulties of making plans with friends and post-pandemic socializing changes.
“And thank you for highlighting the Facebook group where people really do help one another.”
Micro Interactions and Social Lubricant
4:00 to 6:12
Exploring the concept of micro interactions and how they affect socialization as kids grow up.
“It's also funny that they make it minutes per day, which has nothing to do with socializing.”
The Decline of Third Places
6:12 to 7:22
Discussion about the decline of public spaces that foster social interactions and their impact on friendships.
“And you realize like, oh, I need to be more intentional about this.”
Understanding the Friendship Recession
7:22 to 10:12
Insights into the decline of close friendships among midlife adults and the importance of diverse social interactions.
“Well, we were talking about this on our sports episode.”
Challenges of Expanding Social Circles
10:12 to 13:15
Discussion on the challenges of moving casual acquaintances into closer friendships and the complexity of social interactions.
“But are there people who have one close friend for their whole life and that's OK with them?”
Challenges of Expanding Social Circles
13:19 to 14:07
Discussion on the challenges of moving casual acquaintances into closer friendships and the complexity of social interactions.
“Coming in hot with my niece's new favorite thing, Yoto, a screen-free audio player for kids aged 3 to 12 that brings stories, music, learning, and imagination together in one simple device.”
Challenges of Expanding Social Circles
14:14 to 15:29
Discussion on the challenges of moving casual acquaintances into closer friendships and the complexity of social interactions.
“That's Yotoplay.com and the code FRESH for 10 % off.”
Challenges of Expanding Social Circles
16:40 to 16:53
Discussion on the challenges of moving casual acquaintances into closer friendships and the complexity of social interactions.
“Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.”
Show all 19 chapters
Navigating Modern Friendships
16:53 to 24:32
The hosts discuss the challenges of maintaining friendships in today's busy world.
“I need to be seeing more different people.”
Barriers to Connection
24:32 to 28:00
Exploring the internal and external factors that hinder friendships from developing.
“I know somebody who like, you know, we're kind of friends, more friends through friends.”
The Challenge of Group Gatherings
28:00 to 30:34
Exploring the difficulties of organizing friend gatherings and the pressures of ensuring everyone can attend.
“This was what I was talking about, the cocktails.”
The Challenge of Group Gatherings
30:41 to 31:44
Exploring the difficulties of organizing friend gatherings and the pressures of ensuring everyone can attend.
“That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash WFH.”
The Challenge of Group Gatherings
31:57 to 32:18
Exploring the difficulties of organizing friend gatherings and the pressures of ensuring everyone can attend.
Navigating Modern Communication
32:18 to 36:01
Discussing how voice memos and spontaneous meetups can enhance friendships and communication.
“I literally beg you to say fine and let me move on with my day.”
Building Stronger Connections
36:01 to 42:03
Sharing strategies for maintaining friendships and the importance of regular contact.
“random small windows that instead of being like, we have to wait till all 10 of us can have dinner.”
Enhancing Friendships: Practical Tips
42:03 to 45:25
Learn actionable strategies to improve and deepen friendships.
“Maybe that birthday group who I used to hang out with 10 years ago, who we always had a million laughs with, I should just send out an email and be like, hey, two weeks from Friday, let's go to a bar.”
Engaging with Our Audience
45:25 to 45:54
Discover how to engage with the podcast community and stay connected.
“Follow us on Instagram at WhatFreshHellCast.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit Progressive.com. Find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.
0:33Heidi Raykeil:Can we set a date for January? What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood. Friends, let me tell you about a thing called a stamp. With Margaret Aples. And Amy Wilson. Come up to me and ask me about the podcast. A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas. So you don't have to. And it was a place where everybody knows your name. And they're always glad you came.
1:02Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell? Laughing in the face of motherhood, this is Margaret.
1:07Heidi Raykeil:And this is Amy. Today we're talking about why it feels impossible to make plans with anybody and how you can fix that. I need this topic, Amy. I love this topic. But first, let's start with mailbag. Our mailbag comes from Lauren in our Facebook group, facebook.com slash group slash whatfreshhellcast. Fresh Hell cast. This is really a thank you letter to the Facebook group, but I loved this. I love this one. Lauren says, my child with additional needs is turning four today. I reached out to this group in the past regarding specialists and navigating uncertainty. While we still have therapies and specialists, life is so much smoother than it was when we were searching for a diagnosis and worrying about the future.
1:44Heidi Raykeil:If you're in that season right now, I want you to know it gets better. We still don't have a definitive diagnosis, but we have the right specialists, the right therapies and a happy little girl. We don't know exactly what school will look like, but I know we'll have the tools to navigate it. I wanted to share this for those struggling in the messy middle. Be sure to look for the surprises and celebrate the wins among your child's individual path. I love this. Congratulations. I have been on that journey and I know exactly what you're talking about. And also, I want to put a little pin in this because I think this is going to play and a little bit to our conversation.
2:22Oh, really?
2:23Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. I love this, Lauren. I feel like this is the lesson you learn over and over again as your kid's journey and as they get older and as their journeys sort of have less to do with you in a moment-to-moment basis and their decisions are less checked in with you in a moment-to-moment basis, you don't have to know what it's going to look like for it to be okay right now and for it to be okay tomorrow and next month. You don't have to know how it's going to turn out and be sure that it will be okay for it to be okay. Beautifully said. Hard to do. I'm soaking in it right now. The like, it's okay to not know what's next.
2:58I'm not doing amazing with it, guys.
3:00Heidi Raykeil:But you know, we'll see. Thank you, Lauren. And thank you for highlighting the Facebook group where people really do help one another. It is a wonderful place. Thank you. Come find us. What Fresh Hell podcast? Search Facebook groups. So here's my question I'm bringing to everyone today. We're all seeing our friends less often than we want to, or we know we should. We all have, can think of five people right now that we're doing like, oh, we really should get together. We should do that thing. Oh, let's get a date for September on the books. Then you get older and die. And it doesn't happen. And I want to talk about why that's happening for all of us and how we can maybe break through that a little bit.
3:37And I'm going to throw out the question, can this be fixed? And also, should this be fixed? Like, have we done a reset post-pandemic that makes more sense for us? And that's why this is happening. I think that's at least worth, I don't know the answer, but I think it's worth asking the question.
3:55Heidi Raykeil:We've definitely done a reset post-pandemic, and maybe it is working for a lot of us. The American Time Use Survey says the average daily socializing fell from 45 to 60 minutes a day in 2019 to 35 minutes per day in 2022. I feel like it went from 60 to 1. I can't believe it only fell. What's that, like 20 %? That's not very much. This is in-person socializing. It's also funny that they make it minutes per day, which has nothing to do with socializing. Like there's probably four days a week that I don't interact with anyone who's not in my immediate family. And then there's two nights a week where I hang out with people for four to five hours.
4:33So it's like minutes per day seems a very odd measure of social time.
4:37Heidi Raykeil:All right. Well, we'll leave that aside because I agree. But it is true that post-pandemic socializing in person went from ambient contact to a more like hyper deliberate coordination. These were called micro interactions. We've talked about Dr. Marlene Bauer is a loneliness researcher at the University of Sydney, Australia, and she coined this term about micro interactions. And what was missing during the pandemic, like you still talk to your sister as much as you used to, but you didn't talk to the guy at the coffee shop, your yoga instructor, the woman who is next to you at yoga, who you don't even know her name, but you say hi to her twice a week.
5:16Heidi Raykeil:Those are micro interactions and that those count and that we lost something when we lost those that we didn't know we needed in the first place. I'm also going to say this is ages and stages. When I had toddlers and babies and little kids, probably up until about middle school, I had micro interactions constantly. We were at the park. My town doesn't happen to have buses, so I had to pick up my kids every day. I went to school pick up every single day at three o 'clock and talked to 10 different people like that. But I also find the older my kids have gotten, I really notice how much social lubricant is missing.
5:56You know, that kind of just, oh, I'm out with the kids all day. I'm at the zoo. I'm at the park. I'm talking to a million people. Now my kids get up and leave in the morning and then they come home after school and they drive somewhere. I'm cut off from so much of the micro.
6:10Heidi Raykeil:Yes, that sort of soccer sidelines, pick up, drop off, the waiting room at karate class. That's right. That goes away. And you realize like, oh, I need to be more intentional about this. Although I will also say it's not a 100 percent negative. Like I'm not totally sad to not be doing that anymore because there is a lot of social battery that goes into that, that I am not 100 percent missing. Yeah. Like the ballet moms, you like them fine, but you don't really care. You don't see them anymore. Yeah, I think that's right. I definitely noticed that it's less. I probably need to make it up more, but I'm not sure I totally miss 45 minutes of socializing every single day at three o 'clock.
6:47Heidi Raykeil:That's kind of how I feel, too. And that's why you were saying, like, maybe the pandemic wasn't all bad. Like, oh, who wants to do all that small talk all the time? So we'll talk about whether that matters. There was another factor, decline of third places. Like when Starbucks opened, I'm old enough to remember when Starbucks opened, it was like, we're a third place. We're not home. We're not work. We're a third place where you can just gather, where you can just hang out right around the time that all those seatings started disappearing from Starbucks because they didn't really want you to stay and sit down.
7:14Heidi Raykeil:pandemic shutdown, churches are closing, parks are being defunded, that there is a actual literal decline in places to meet and hang out compared to where they were 10 years ago. Well, we were talking about this on our sports episode. The parks shut down in COVID. You don't realize how much the pandemic changed everything. And that third places, it's kind of like the way that kids are not playing pickup basketball. We're not hanging out at coffee shops. Right. What I always love when I travel, too, you go to someplace like Ireland with the pub culture. Everybody goes to the pub. And maybe they're not doing that in Ireland anymore either, but don't tell me because I want to think that they are.
7:53Heidi Raykeil:You just go to the pub and everybody's there. Or in Spain, you just go out to the nearest plaza, which is a couple blocks from your house, and everybody goes. And the kids are playing soccer and their grandmothers are talking and you don't have to dress a certain way or look a certain way or stand in line or be cool. You just go to this third place and everybody's there all the time. There used to be a sitcom called Cheers. This is such an oldie locks alert. Wow. Huge. Turn up that oldie locks alert for Cheers. Back in my day, there were these kind of various loners and losers who were regulars at this bar.
8:23And it was a place where everybody knows your name. And they're always glad you came. Exactly. So where is that for me right now? It might be yoga class, but it ain't the same. And I will say this is pandemic, but it's just a complete cultural change in general. They talk about air conditioning like it used to be at night. Everyone's out on the stoop. They can't be in their houses and they're all watching the kids play. There's just communal living. I mean, they talk about the New York City subway. It's one of the last places where people from different cultures and different income levels mix.
8:54Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. We've lost communal space. Yes. Well, Daniel Cox of the Survey Center on American Life calls this the friendship recession, which sounds like, well, wait a minute. You have friends. You're not going to hang out at the bar as much anymore. You're not going to the pub. Who cares? I have friends. But he is delineating this sort of middle line, which I think is really interesting that studies do bear out. So he says, first of all, yes, midlife adults increasingly report fewer close friends and diminished capacity to initiate in-person plans. Without the third space, you do have to initiate in-person plans.
9:29Heidi Raykeil:You can't just like go to the place where your friends usually go and maybe some of them will be there. You have to say, hey, why don't you come over or else you won't see them. And most adults are saying, yes, I don't see as much of my friends and I just feel tired and not really like I want to be the initiator of plans. But studies show socializing matters, like spending time with friends matters, but actually spending time with more different friends also matters. That the quality of your relationship matters, but so does the quantity. Because you can say like, ah, like I see my sister every day.
10:00Heidi Raykeil:It's fine. That's actually not what studies show. Nothing more strongly predicts the frequency with which we feel isolated from others than the total number of close friends we have. Interesting. so Daniel Cox has done this study where they ask people how lonely they felt in the last week people with two or three close friends more than half of them say I've felt lonely more than once or twice in the past week and only about 35 percent of people who say I have 10 or more close friends say the same thing so it's kind of obvious like the more friends you have the less likely you'll be lonely but it isn't about spending 10 hours a week with two people it's about spending 10 hours with like eight different people is actually the way to feel more activated.
10:42Can that be true for everyone? I mean, that is very true for me. But are there people who have one close friend for their whole life and that's OK with them? It feels like people have such different set points on this.
10:55Heidi Raykeil:You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I guess I would say like, well, be careful if you only have one close friend because people, you know, move to Alaska or things happen. You guys get in a fight. It's over. Right. Things can change pretty quickly. you want to average your mean out a little more. But I think this is more than that. I mean, I think the point is well taken, whether or not you're hyper social or not hyper social, that even if you're not like I am a person with 35 close friends, it's those micro interactions there, too, I bet. Right. Yes. It's just the differential that if you're only talking to and also it just puts a lot of pressure if you've only have one person you're interacting with, You might have one very deep friendship, but then it's this kind of light socialization where you're interacting with a lot of people.
11:40Heidi Raykeil:It's worth it. There actually was another study. Hannah Collins, UCLA Anderson School of Management. She did a study. She assessed the social interactions and happiness of 50 ,000 people. OK. This was, I believe, her like doctoral dissertation, and it's quoted all over the place now. So good for Dr. Collins. She assessed these interactions and she wanted to see which set of interactions would be most predictive of well-being. Like the more time I spend with family, the happier I am. The more time I spend with my spouse, the more time I spend with strangers, the happiest I am. What they showed in this was that the total amount of social interaction seems to matter less than the diversity of your portfolio, as she said.
12:23Heidi Raykeil:So spending time with each of these different groups of people, having a variety of people that you're in social contact with was more important than the actual total amount of time that you spent. That makes perfect sense to me. I think it's the word friendship that's throwing me. And it's right. Friendship. It doesn't mean best friendship. It doesn't mean deepest friendship. It doesn't mean that you're interacting with people and being like, let's talk about the time I can't die. Right, right. These are just a variety of interactions in a friendly way, not necessarily I have 30 really close friends and that makes me the winner.
12:59Heidi Raykeil:That's right. But I think that there are things that are uniquely challenging about expanding your portfolio and moving the friend from the person you bump into sometimes to like we should have dinner sometimes to actually doing it. So can we take a break and talk about that when we come back? Absolutely. Coming in hot with my niece's new favorite thing, Yoto, a screen-free audio player for kids aged 3 to 12 that brings stories, music, learning, and imagination together in one simple device. Kids just pop in an audio card and can take the lead themselves. No cameras, no microphones, no ads, just their own imagination running the show.
13:41With more than 1 ,300 audio cards, including stories in Spanish and French, there's something for every age and interest.
13:50Heidi Raykeil:Yodo helps nurture a love of learning and kids' sense of being in charge. My niece told me, because I asked her, that she loves all the different music cards. She loves switching them in and out. The reason Yodo becomes such a big part of kids' routines isn't just because it's screen-free. It's because kids genuinely love it. If you're looking for a gift kids will actually use and enjoy, head to Yotoplay.com. That's Y-O-T-O and use code FRESH to save 10 % off all eligible items. That's Yotoplay.com and the code FRESH for 10 % off. Add a little more imagination and a little less screen time to your family's day with Yoto.
14:30Heidi Raykeil:Thank you, Yoto, for sponsoring this episode. Amy, you know that in our relationship, you have historically been the one to care about skincare. But let me tell you, Osea Skincare is an award-winning bestseller for a reason. Osea has been delivering results you can see and feel for 30 years. And after several months of using Osea's Dream Bioretinol Body Serum, I myself am a true believer, Ames. I also have the Dream Bioretinol Body Serum right there next to my sink so I can use it at night and right after getting out of the shower. Like everything Osea makes, it's deeply moisturizing, but also silky and non-greasy, absorbs fast and works fast.
15:11Heidi Raykeil:I'm really seeing the difference on my chest or, as we say, in the skincare world, on my décolletage. Also, the Dream Bio Retinol Body Serum smells like lavender just the right amount, which puts me in the space I need to go right before my sleepy times. Give your skin a little TLC. Go to oseamalibu.com and get 10 % off your first order with code FRESH. That's O-S-E-A Malibu dot com code FRESH. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials. Their pieces are made to be worn again and again and go with everything in your closet. Seriously, Quinces, short sleeve, 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweaters are my daily basic.
15:55Heidi Raykeil:And at$50 a pop, I keep getting more colors. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just apparel. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. True story. My kid was setting up her dorm room and looking online for bedding that she would think was cool and I would think was appropriately priced. Not an easy task until she said, oh, I know, let's look on Quince.
16:28Heidi Raykeil:Bada bing, bada boom, her dorm looks amazing. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash fresh. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. Gonna spell it. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash fresh. So I think the goal is like, OK, I like this. I like this as an idea for myself. I need to be seeing more different people. I need to expand my roster of friends and not just the time I spend with this person or that person. But then there are unique situations about this, too.
17:08Heidi Raykeil:So Kathleen Walsh, she just wrote an article for The Cut, which is part of New York Magazine, called I Should Be Allowed to Cold Call My Friends. Wow. Controversial. Right? She says, in the past 20 years, a new social boundary seems to have calcified among people my age. It is no longer appropriate to pick up your phone and call your friend whenever you feel like it. The polite thing to do is text witty observations, major life updates. At best, you can schedule an official catch-up call like a board meeting. Meanwhile, text-based friendships often devolve into a steady exchange of memes that go on for years before eventually withering away into nothingness.
17:46Heidi Raykeil:Friendships cannot subsist on heart emojis alone. I mean, I'm not sure about this one, Kathleen. I feel like one of my closest friends is a person who I am forbidden from ever calling on the phone. I mean, she hates the phone, but we text all day. We text funny things back and forth that make each other laugh. I think your mileage might vary on this. I don't want to go back to people calling me. Please, Kathleen, no. No. She says this is a millennial thing. I think this is definitely a Gen X thing. I'm thinking of one friend I have in particular that I don't see very much anymore. She moved away like 20 years ago.
18:22Heidi Raykeil:Yeah. I love this person. If it weren't for Instagram, I wouldn't be in touch with her at all. It just would have been the end. I saw that she started her, I think it was her 26th year teaching in the classroom the other day, which I only know because of Instagram. Right. I sent her a little heart emoji and like, oh, my God, have a great year. And she wrote back, thanks, sweetheart. You know, and we like each other. We're fond of each other. Once every five years, we like start the like, let's have a real catch up. And sometimes we do and sometimes we don't. And then we have to catch up for an hour.
18:51But I do think she's on to something that I am like, oh, I really want to talk to this friend, but I need to set up a 90 minute time on a Sunday because I haven't talked to her in like three years.
19:02Heidi Raykeil:I don't even know what her kids are doing now. And so I'm going to send her a heart emoji instead. And that's not really spending time with your friend. I think it's right. But I also think it's wrong. We're old and like we got busy lives. My best, best friend, best friend in the world since we're 12. Right. She lives in L.A. I live in New York. We used to live together in L.A. We were writing partners. This is like my best friend from ninth grade. First day of ninth grade. We can go six months without ever talking to each other. And then she'll send me like a funny thing about like the facts of life because we're just doing oldie locks TV references today because we used to joke about it all the time when we were 14, you know.
19:44Then this year, for the first time in probably three years, we're going away for a week together. and we'll hang out and we'll catch up and we'll like laugh at each other. I think there is a role in the social media hearting that like we're keeping it warm. We're on what you call slow blinking light mode, you know, and that then every once in a while it's like, oh, it's been too long. Like, let's go hang out for a weekend. Let's get together. I do feel like it's OK to be like, let's like each other's kids posts on Facebook. And then when I go to L.A., we'll all hang out.
Read the full transcript
20:19Heidi Raykeil:I think maybe there's a little bit of a difference between this person who, when you see her, it's like, no, time has gone by and you can talk for three hours. And I would, too, if I saw this friend I was talking about. Because we were friends in person first. Because we established a real friendship. Yes. And now we don't see each other as much as we like. We don't talk as often as much as we like. But that thing is still there. But let's say we're buying into this idea that's like, oh, but I need a variety of friends. I don't just need those three friends from 20 years ago that I can send a heart emoji to and know they'll be there for me.
20:47Heidi Raykeil:I'm trying to grow new friendships at the same time that I think you don't get to that place. The problem is that people I'm meeting now, I'm thinking of two women I'm friends with, who it's like, oh, we just set up a time to all to get together. And it's actually two different groups of women right now. I'm in a group text. Oh my God, it's September. Everybody's back to their schedule. Let's pick out a time. And it's impossible to find a time that the three or four of us can all have a meal or go for a walk or whatever. And so you just do that until it dissipates and it doesn't happen. That's right.
21:16And I think one thing, and I've done this 10 times and it always falls apart. I have a group who we try, let's get together once a month, whoever can show up or the birthday group, like let's get that group together. I can't make like somebody can't make it. And that's okay too. One of the things that I think gets in the way of this, I just had this experience. So I met a woman when my kids were in elementary school and it was kind of like love at first sight. We just got along really well. She's super funny. And actually, she really liked the podcast, which is like, I think how we started talking.
21:50Always a good thing. I mean, I'm always up for somebody who likes the podcast. Come up to me and ask me about the podcast. But we used to go to lunch all the time and hang out. This is probably 10 years later. And we've kind of kept in touch, run into high at the grocery store kind of thing. But we're not friendly like we used to be. And our kids just left for college and we hadn't spoken in probably seven years. And I was just thinking, oh, this must be really hard for her. And what's weird is it's so much harder for me than I thought it would be. And I just wrote her a long text being like, you know, back in the day, we used to talk about this moment and now it's here.
22:24And isn't that crazy? And of course, before I sent it, I thought, is this weird? We haven't talked in a while. Like letting that story creep in. Maybe we don't talk because maybe it's because she doesn't like me, but then I was like, I just could have sent it, you know? And then we had a really nice text back and forth and we're like, let's go get a drink and like cry in our beers about the fact that our kids have left for college. And I think one of the things that often gets in the way is this feeling of friendship should be this, but I've failed friendship. And getting that out of the way is super important.
23:00Heidi Raykeil:I'm putting myself in your situation. I would not have called that person. I never call anybody without saying, can you talk first? I sent a text. Right. But to that person, I am trying to get better at being like, hey, I was thinking of you today, sending those, you know, texts out into the world. And that's when a text is good. Like if you called her to be like, so I thought of you, she'd be like, I'm sorry, who's calling, right? Oh, it would have been. I mean, I would have never in a million years and it would have been super weird. Or would have felt weird and maybe it would have not have been weird, but definitely would have felt too weird to do it.
23:27Heidi Raykeil:But to send a text because it's sort of, you know, asynchronous and you can receive this when and how you want, it enabled you to reconnect in a way that a phone call in 2026 would feel too much. Maybe it wouldn't have felt like too much in 1996, but it would now. Yeah. And I guess I just don't feel that second part where like, and that's bad. I'm very much a fan of texting relationships that keep your relationships warm, then once a year you get dinner. I feel like that's okay. Right. And that's a specific kind of thing. And some people need to stay there. But if we all aren't spending as much time with friends as we used to, and we all would be happier if we spent much time with friends, then the goal is to get it out of the text thread and into real life with some people.
24:14Heidi Raykeil:This friend of mine lives a couple hours away. I can't make it an in-person friendship. Right. Your friend in California, like you're going to see her when you see her. And until then, thank goodness for emojis. Right. But there's like another level of people that we're not getting to the next level with. Yes. Because everything on the phone now. As I'm thinking about this, what's important as our every topic we ever talk about is kind of doing an audit of what's going on. Like, who am I not seeing? What are my friendship problems? Have I lost touch with someone? I know somebody who like, you know, we're kind of friends, more friends through friends.
24:52And I know that they lost their mother at some point, but I didn't really hear about it until much later. Or I'm thinking of someone else and I know they have a health problem, but I kind of only know it through other people. I think weird stuff can get in the way. And one big thing is there's very few people, unless you have like a real problem with the person and real toxicity conflict or the person has told you to leave them alone. I don't know many people who don't enjoy getting a text that says, hey, I was just thinking of you. You're such a great person. Miss you. I hope you're doing great.
25:27Who doesn't like that?
25:28Heidi Raykeil:It's like the first year of college bias. That's like, oh, nobody wants me to walk up to them and say hello and be friendly and ask them where they're from. Like, yes, they do. They would like nothing more than that. This is a unique opportunity. You and I have each been trying to like impress that upon somebody who you just can't hear it. You're like, but that would be weird if I just walked up to that group of people. Yeah. Same thing. That would be weird if I let that friend know that I was thinking of her. And I think this is around the time when her father died. Like there's nothing bad in that.
25:55Heidi Raykeil:But you perceive it as like, but that might be weird or strange. I think about an email I got after my mom died. We have a huge family, right? Like cousins everywhere you look. Dozens and dozens of cousins. Dozens of cousins. That's a good podcast title. That's a sitcom idea right there. Take it around with it, guys. Dozens of cousins. But one of my cousins, who I would call, you know, a more distant cousin, and certainly it was my dad's cousin, so not even on the same side of the family as my mother, wrote this long email in which he talked about a time where he was trying to make a decision.
26:33And he had called my mother and she had helped him make the decision and how it really changed his life. And I thought so many people would be like, I'm not going to send this email because I'm not close enough and I should let other people. It's one of the things I remember most clearly from that time. And like the flowers that arrived from people we barely had seen in years and just a nice note that's like, I always remember your mom. Like, that's the thing. Why do we put that weird piece of paper that's like, I am not the one they want to hear from or it would be weird if I reached out.
27:08Heidi Raykeil:And it's odd how we get in our own way. When it comes to like meeting in person, there's a sort of it has to be worth it thing that can happen, I think. Like I have, we used to call ourselves the band. I guess we still call ourselves the band. So this is when my now like out in the world kid was three, started nursery school. Five couples because our kids started nursery school together. One was their second kid. Everybody else was their oldest kid. And that's how these friendships happen. Right. So I have close friendships with these five, in this case, five women married to five men. And the 10 of us have gone on vacation for different people's big birthdays, get together for dinner.
27:46Heidi Raykeil:The 10 of us have not been in the same room now for a couple of years, probably, because people move away and, you know, it's life. Anyway, the bar is being set that the 10 of us have to get together or else we have to wait till the 10 of us can get together. And it's not happening. This was what I was talking about, the cocktails. Someone might not be there. Right. It's not worth it unless we can all be there. And so the group thread of trying to set up like, can we set a date for January? And no, there's always some reason that one out of the 10 of us can't be there. And so now we haven't seen each other in a couple of years.
28:19Heidi Raykeil:And that, I think, is like another version of this. Like, oh, but it has to be worth it. I'm not sure. Right. Can't be just four or five of us getting dinner. That's not right. It has to be all of us. And so it'll never happen. That's a trap that we have fallen into this particular group of friends. It's super funny, and I haven't thought about it this way as clearly, that yes, the things you put in the way. And then I'm also going to say, friendship recession, also real-life recession. The third spaces problem is also like, I live in New York City. And so, I mean, I live outside of New York City, but when I gather with old friends, it's because they're in New York City.
28:56And dinner for four in New York City is$250. Like, period. I mean, plus babysitting. plus babysitting. Like you could go to Shake Shack, I guess, but then your dinner is like only 35 minutes long. And so it's worth mentioning that there is a financial aspect to this as well.
29:16Heidi Raykeil:That's a really good point. Getting together after the pandemic, it is, it's really expensive to have dinner with 10 people. It's going to cost you a lot of money. And so that's also another piece of it. So I think we've well defined all the problems, Amy. So you better have some very good solutions when we come back from this break. Amy, I can report that my house is in the very sad transition from the lazy, hazy days of summer to the oh so crazy first weeks of school. And it's insane. But our skylight calendar makes it a little bit more manageable. It's so helpful to have a clear visual guide of everyone's daily schedule.
29:58Heidi Raykeil:Skylight's all-in-one digital smart calendar syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more, giving you customizable views for daily, weekly, or monthly planning. You can even manage events, chores, and grocery lists while on the go with the Skylight app, and it'll sync with the calendar at home. And if in four months you are not 100 % thrilled with your purchase, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners$30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com slash WFH.
30:34Go to myskylight.com slash WFH for$30 off your 15-inch calendar.
30:41Heidi Raykeil:That is M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash WFH. Fall is the perfect time for a back-to-one, new routines, and maybe a little more attention to the things you may have put off over the summer. If your hair could use an autumn reset, it's time for Nutrafol. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. And now the Nutrafol women's formula has been upgraded to its most advanced version yet. It's 100 % vegan, biotin free, and comes in a smaller capsule size to make your daily routine easier.
31:20Heidi Raykeil:It is huge. I really like the smaller capsule sides. It makes a difference. Agree. Whether you're just starting your hair health journey or you've been taking Nutrafol for years, this update means you can now get their most advanced support yet. See, thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months. Right now, Nutrafol is offering our listeners$10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code laughing. That's Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code laughing.
32:18Heidi Raykeil:dealing with a hand, foot, and mouth outbreak, I literally beg you to say fine and let me move on with my day. How people greet us. Hey, stranger, it's great to see you. What we hear. You have deeply offended me by being out of touch. What are you, some kind of hermetic shut-in? Crawl out of your cave once in a while like a real human, you freak. How people greet us. You look tired. What we hear. Oh my God, you scared me. Seriously, you look like that kid in the well from the Ring movies. Get yourself together, you beast. This has been How People Greet Us Versus What We Hear from the What Fresh Out podcast.
32:54Heidi Raykeil:We're going to shift our paradigm, Margaret. I'm going to say that we have to remember that the closeness is built through more mundane moments, more frequent mundane moments, not like a State of the Union dinner once every two years when everybody can actually be in town. Yes. Right, or not a 90-minute catch-up with your friend every two years. so one way that I see my daughter doing that I'm starting to do a little bit of I'm wading into is voice memos which is still not meeting in person I'm still not quite solving the problem of meeting in person but leaving a voice memo for somebody you're not calling them on the phone and you're not texting them she will send me I've seen her do this with her friends that's interesting now she's starting to do it with me while she's away at school hey I'm just walking to class and she just talks for a couple of minutes like you'd talk with a friend and they can listen to it when they want to and they can respond.
33:46Heidi Raykeil:Back in my day, this was called a letter and you wrote a letter to your friend at a different college? Friends, let me tell you about a thing called a stamp. Yeah, it was a letter, but that the voice memo, it's better than an emoji. It's easier to go deeper. It makes you feel more connected. I wouldn't send a voice text to a bunch of people. That seems like not what you do, right? Like, hey, y 'all, they're letting everybody know. Hopping on real quick to let you know. that I'm going to Trader Joe's. I'm thinking about some hummus. This is a way to increase intimacy. Do you send voice memos? It's not an in-person thing, but I still think they're nice.
34:22I mean, I think it's a great idea for some people. No, I don't send voice memos and I'm going to let that one pass me by. I'm not going to get on the voice memo train, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea. But I'm now in my full Luddite phase. I will not be adapting to any new modes of communication.
34:39Heidi Raykeil:I can see that this would work with me. You know what? I sent it to my oldest friend is from high school. We're still friends. Of course, don't see each other enough. You know, and I started texting her about something and then I was running out the door and I thought, OK, let me just send her a voice moment and explain this moment. And funny, the moment to get like met, I hear the moment was me saying, do you remember you and I were talking to this woman, Susan, probably at least 10 years ago. She was ahead of me in the parenting journey. she was starting to look at college with her oldest kid and I said do you remember I asked Susan how's it going and Susan said you know what I've decided it's going to be fun and it's going really well and it's super fun and I never forgot that and I'm thinking about Susan as I'm about to leave with my youngest for college like you know what this long drive is going to be fun I've decided it's going to be fun I sent my friend a voice memo saying that and then of course she immediately sent me a voice memo back saying oh my god I don't remember that but you have to contact Susan and tell her that you remember that, right?
35:36Heidi Raykeil:This person I've kind of lost touch with. That was her immediate reaction. Like, oh my gosh, how much that person would love to hear this. But it did feel closer to my friend in the moment than just texting about it. Wait, did you contact Susan? No, because she might think it was weird. I think it was weird. She doesn't want to hear from me. Hey, me. I promise I will. I'm going to write to Susan and tell her that I... Write to Susan. That's what you learned from this episode. I'm going to say, can we have dinner so I can tell you about that time? All right, moving on from voice memos. I have a new idea for you.
36:03Heidi Raykeil:random small windows that instead of being like, we have to wait till all 10 of us can have dinner. I'm going to be grabbing a coffee tomorrow at 915. I have a doctor's appointment at 10. I'm going to go to this coffee place next door at 915. If you're around, come meet me for half an hour. And if you can't, we'll try again. I like it. I like low pressure. Do you do this? I don't do this. No, I don't do any of these things. I have one friend I do this with. I don't do this. Here we're trying to get at solving seeing more people more often, not seeing the same two people more often seeing more people moving people up from the like, hey, how you doing?
36:35Heidi Raykeil:Waving to like, hey, I'm doing this. Do you want to grab coffee with me? I don't think I suffer from this as much as other people, I would say. I'm just my social whatever it is. Need is set super high. I might need to cut out socializing a little bit more, but some of the problems are still they resonate with me in terms of like, yes, the thing where the six of you need to get together for dinner. I get the problems. I'm interested in the part where you're like, yeah, I talk to people on the phone all the time. And I'm like, you do? Like, who are you talking to all the time? Like, I feel like that's so 80s to be on the phone with your friends.
37:07Yeah, I have like probably six people. I have a long commute. I teach upstate twice a week. Every trip, an hour there, an hour back, an hour there, an hour back. I'm on the phone with somebody for an hour. Friends in L.A.
37:21Heidi Raykeil:Is it a standing thing? Like, I tend to call you on Tuesday mornings and you know, I just ring them up. I just ring them up and they and they ring me up sometimes. I probably call more often than they do, but they're like, oh, are you in the car? All right, great. Let's catch up. I would say that's a lot more than most people do. Yeah, I think that's true. Every Sunday night, I have between five and 30 people at my house for dinner every single Sunday night. I have a very high social need. In fact, I was just thinking, I'm like kind of depressed and grouchy this week. And my kids went back to school.
37:54I'm catching up on a ton of work. And I realize it's Thursday and I have not physically seen a human being who's not a work person or one of anybody in my family. And I can feel in my body this like I really have a strong internal need to socialize all the time.
38:15Heidi Raykeil:So you've put these things in place and the rest of us should put more of these things in place. I mean, I've had a quiet week this week other than seeing my own family members. And I don't feel that as like a buzz of a problem. But looking at these studies, I do buy that I need to variegate the people that I'm seeing and figure out how to get out and see people in person more often. And the phone is a lot better than texting, but in person is a lot better than on the phone with the people you can be in person with. Why do you feel that you have to do that? Because I think I know that I would be happier, even though I don't feel its absence as a like stress.
38:49Heidi Raykeil:Yes, but I buy into like, oh, yeah, I used to do more of that. This is a path to happiness. This is missing, right? Like the drop off casual contact is gone and I've replaced it with nothing. And that's not good. Yeah, I do see that. I don't talk to people. I'm starting to. Like, I feel like, Amy, you can call me if you want. Anytime. Let's chat. What would I do if I didn't? You're who I talked to. You don't need to talk to me. No, and yet we do. When we talk, we could talk all day. I have two friends, two old friends who have each sort of been like, I'd like to be more in touch, which of course.
39:20Heidi Raykeil:Oh, that's great. Great. And of course, did I respond by being like, what? Why are you being so weird? Of course, I'm like, OK, let's. So I have like catch ups on the calendar with an older roommate. Now we'd go to the same place for dinner. We don't have to make it fancy. We don't have to make it come up with different plans. Right. It's the same place on 74th Street. That's where we go. And then a friend of mine from college, we're getting in more frequent, small contact. set up a time to talk, you know, that kind of thing. We're trying to grow this. I think that's amazing that you kind of have done this naturally.
39:52Heidi Raykeil:And I think most of the rest of us need to do. I mean, I'll give you another one of my things. You do it. Open door hours, low friction, spontaneous visits by establishing designated open door hours, which sounds like you have Sunday night. Like everybody in your close ish circle knows if they really wanted to come over on Sunday, they're welcome. They can come. Yeah. We did this a lot with my kids, too. Like Friday was open play at our house. They could all invite friends. Everybody kind of knew it was happening. No supervision. Come on over and play. I think this is a great approach. Doing things with friends means you do more.
40:27Heidi Raykeil:Like the more you do, the more you do. There's another survey from the Survey Center on American Life. 60 % of Americans with six close friends said they went to an event or a community meeting at least a few times in the last year. And only 33 % of those with no close friends did that. So the more friends you have, the more places you have to go. Honestly, I'm on the other side of this. I feel like my friendship problem is a constant hum of like, oh, I haven't talked to this person. I am a person who loves connection and connects with a wide range of people. I have maybe 25 former students who I try to keep up with.
41:06I just have this constant gnawing guilt of like, oh, I let that person down. I miss that person's birthday. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
41:12Heidi Raykeil:But what I've seen you never do, which I think does enter into conversations, at least in the Instagram world, it does, of like, I'm mad at this person. Like the real housewives thing, like you haven't been a good friend to me. You didn't answer this text, like that sort of friendship measuring. You're not enough of a this and a no. No, you can't do that. I've never heard you do that with anybody. And that's why you have a lot of friends, I think. I don't do that either. But that's right. That like high maintenance friendships or friendships that feel like they involve a lot of that. I am old enough now that I have kind of backed away from that.
41:44And sometimes I call and I'm like, oh, it's been way too long. I'm sorry. It's been crazy. Or I haven't returned your call from three months ago and I apologize. But I think what we're coming to, and I hadn't thought about it before this conversation, is what we come to with like kids behavior or homework or what we're making for dinner. That really what you need to do with these things is sit down and be like for half an hour, I'm going to think about my friendships and my relationships and what's good about them and what's not good about them, what I would like more of and what I would like less of.
42:20Maybe that birthday group who I used to hang out with 10 years ago, who we always had a million laughs with, I should just send out an email and be like, hey, two weeks from Friday, let's go to a bar. Anyone who can come, great. And if people can't come, we're not going to look for 46 different dates, we're going to just do it again. And let me tell you, you get to a phase of your life where you only see people at funerals and fix that. You know, I mean, I say it all the time. I'm like, let's get together in joy, too, so that we're not only seeing each other when there's a coffin in the room.
42:51Heidi Raykeil:Well, the last tip I'm going to give is that I think if if it's true that having more close friends means you attend more community events and you get more involved in your community, then I'd like to think that that's another way to deepen your friendships and to get more friendships is to become more involved community wise. If you're not like, I don't have 10 people I can call to do stuff with. Well, then become more involved with the community, go to the diaper drive or whatever, show up at that stuff and use that as a launching pad. That's how, you know, shyer people like me get started. I think that's really smart.
43:23Go to the gym, go to pickleball club, like whatever that thing, go to the gardening club. I mean, I wouldn't go to the gardening club if you pay me$10 million. But if you have an interest, then you have a share. Amy and I were actually together socially this weekend. We were talking about college roommate matchups and they now have more of like a dating app. And it's like, okay, you guys are a 40 % match. You guys are a 90 % match. And that's how my kid found a roommate. And it seems to be going pretty well so far, but lean into like common interests. You're 90 % of the way there to friendship.
43:57You know, if you find somebody who's a movie buff and you love movies, like you don't have to start from zero. Getting those activities involved really helps.
44:07Heidi Raykeil:I think it's important to remember, too, that whatever effort you're making, even though it feels like it's weird and it won't be welcome, that's just our weird heads getting in the way. It will be welcome. It'd be totally welcome. That thing where we put in front of that piece of paper of like, well, it's been too long. Well, I missed the fact that they were sick or they had a parent die and now it's awkward and I don't even know. I mean, I have that with friends. Like we're at that phase of life where if you haven't seen someone in a year and their parent was 90, you don't actually know whether their parent is alive or not.
44:39And then it's like, it's too awkward to call. Just call, like watch your story in friendships. And yeah, that thing of like, we haven't talked and I'm sure it's because they hate my guts and they realize I'm a terrible person. Probably not.
44:51Heidi Raykeil:He solved it. Turns out you had already solved it. You were fine with this all along, but this was very helpful for me. And I don't mean to be like, Amy, I don't worry about this because I'm so popular. But this does not happen to be a huge area of struggle in my life is all I'm trying to say. But it's important to you. It's important to me. And it's something that I think I have a natural ability at. Now, come talk to me about what my desk looks like right now, if you could see it. Like if we want to talk about organization, I'm going to take every tip in the world because help me, Jesus. But yeah, I like this conversation.
45:25It was super interesting.
45:26Heidi Raykeil:Follow us on Instagram at WhatFreshHellCast. We do clips from the episode, like little short clips, couple from each episode. And they're really easy to send to somebody. If you have a friend who's not really maybe a huge podcast listener, but they might be. You could send them a clip of this and maybe we're going to reel them in and get new listeners. And it's as we said, it's a good way to keep our friendship warm until we see each other again. And just keep hearting us on Instagram. And with that, friends, thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you next time. So long.
46:01Hey, before your Q3 call, I've got the campaign brief ready, built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape.
46:08Heidi Raykeil:Great. Did you include the differentiation angle the CMO asked for? Already in there. Three angles no competitors using right now. Just need your approval. Approved? Thanks. Oh, agents, where would we be without you? Hmm, somewhere with a lot more tabs open. Create your first Monday agent in minutes at monday.com.
From the publisher
Why does it feel harder than ever to get together with our friends? Why does every "we should hang out soon!" in a group text feel destined to peter out before it actually happens?
In this episode, we explore the modern “friendship recession" that started during the pandemic and hasn't changed back.
We discuss:
the surprising finding that the quantity of one's friendships matters at least as much as the quality
how to set the bar for in-person gatherings a little lower
why having three old friends is good, but bringing new people in migh be even better
practical ways to build more connection into everyday life
Here are links to some of the resources mentioned in the episode:
Kathleen Walsh for The Cut: "I Should Be Allowed to Cold-Call My Friends”
Erica Pandey for Axios: Americans of all ages are spending less time socializing
Derek Thompson for The Atlantic: The Anti-Social Century
Russell Contreras for Axios: 15,000 churches could close this year amid religious shift in U.S.
Daniel A. Cox for Survey Center on American Life blog: Yes, Having More Friends is Better
Daniel A. Cox for Survey Center on American Life newsletter:
America’s “Friendship Recession” Is Weakening Civic Life
H.K. Collins, et. al. for the Proceedings of the Natural Academy of Sciences: Relational diversity in social portfolios predicts well-being
What Fresh Hell is co-hosted by Amy Wilson and Margaret Ables.
Protect your loved ones without spying on them. Go to https://heypolo.com/hell or use code HELL and get 70% off your first year!
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website:
https://www.whatfreshhellpodcast.com/p/promo-codes/
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
