Asma Khan: More Than My Food

29:05We don't say these things to the women. We also don't say it to men. But I think that women particularly, because we make it look like effortless, people think it's valueless. Because we make it look effortless. Yeah, they think it's valueless. Because we don't, you know, I don't sit here and say, you know I'm this I did for you because now you're going to have this extra dish and you know I've taken half an hour out of my time instead of washing my hair I'm sitting here talking to you women don't do this especially women of that generation don't do it so in that silent sacrifices that so many women have made there is this hollowness in the storytelling every day I live one day less all of us do I try to tell the story of myself but I also try to tell the stories of all women because in that space where they never said anything my voice echoes every time I come back to this because I know the next dawn is not guaranteed to me and I want to use, I want to be useful.

30:24When that time comes and I'm submerged in the ocean, I want to look back and see greenery and moisture and that there is no barriers that I managed to break it, even it meant with my body. Wait, asthma? Yeah. You want to be buried in the ocean? No, no. That I don't want to. I'm scared of water. Okay. I was scared of water. I was worried there because I'm not going to visit you. No, no, no. No, no, I'm scared of water. Wait, why are you scared of water? Because I don't know how to swim. Oh, okay, that makes sense. I grew up, do you all know how to swim? I do. Yes, I can swim to save my life. Okay, but did you learn late in life?

31:01I did, I did, yeah. So my mom tried to teach me how to swim by pushing me into a pool. Hey. And then all that happened was I basically almost drowned. And then someone had to come in and save me. Wait, hold on.

31:16Was this a home pool Or a public pool It was a home pool So it was always there No no Not in my house Not in my house At someone's house So we were at a We went to a Prayer meeting Like you know You'd move from house to house Right so the church You'd have prayer meetings And each week You'd be at a different person's home And she was like Today's the day So we're at We're at a prayer meeting It was at the Voss family Right so we're at The Voss family's house And we're all in the backyard He's making up the name It sounds like No, no, no I remember them I remember them It's such a specific thing to me Wow And so We're in the backyard And everyone's having a good time Now I used to love swimming pools I still do But I couldn't swim So what I would do is I'd get in the pool And then I would hold the edge Yeah, yeah And I would just go I would just go around the side Go around the side Go around the side That's all And then when I'd get to the shallow end I'd bounce Yes Bounce Pretend you're swimming Bounce Pretend I'm swimming I'd do this It's good when you're a child I still do it now It's embarrassing It is

32:15So then what happened So then I was outside the pool We're standing on the edge I forget How this even happened People talking Talking about I wish it was a drop kick Then it was like Talking Swimming Not swimming Whatever Whatever And then someone said Someone said Trevor can you swim And I said No I can't swim He said Oh how can you not swim And he said Oh no You know Sorry Then he says Then I said I haven't learned Then he said Ah learn You don't need to learn My dad just threw me in the pool And then I swam And then my mom laughed And then she pushed me in the pool Because she was like Oh I've been slacking as a parent And then she pushed me into the pool And then I flew in And then it was deep end So I was down And it's hard to explain to swimmers How hard it is when you're in water And you can't swim It's happened to me Your body just doesn't know O &C it doesn't exist You just go to the bottom And you make the mistake of gasping So you And then And then water goes in Water goes in Water goes in And then I remember looking up You can see It gets blurry You can see up through the surface of the water You're there You're there You're there And then eventually Mr.

33:25Voss jumped in Clothing and everything Jumped straight in And then he came and he fetched me And then my mom was laughing hard She thought it was She genuinely thought it was the funniest thing ever And then I was like You Kill Kill me then she's like why didn't you swim that's not and then the guy who said my dad pushed me he was like that's not what I meant I'm sorry so then I decided that I would learn how to swim for myself and I I just did it myself it was actually my cousin who taught me Bulalo my cousin she's a good swimmer and then she was like okay just do we went through all the different strokes.

34:10You know, it was like breaststroke, freestyle. She's like, you got to, one of them has to work. Oh, so yeah. And then she was like, try this, try this, try this, try this. And then one I could like pick up so I can swim to save my life. My learning to swim experience was more traumatic than yours actually. And actually very dangerous. What did you do? Because we had just moved into this new neighborhood and then there was a place where it was a dam almost. So whenever it would rain, the water would rise higher. And everyone would go there after school. But the thing was, Everyone would talk about it at school So if you haven't been there You're a loser So the conversation would start about Something, something, something And it would end up with a dam Always got to the dam Always got to the dam So one day after school I was like I have to see what this dam is all about But I still remember You know how fresh water smells differently From swimming pool water And then we all went there after school Shorts on Small t-shirts Because you know After school you play with your old clothes Yeah That are not so fancy I remember we went there Then we stood there And then everyone jumped in because they'd been there before.

35:10Some people were swimming from branches, jumping in. And I remember to myself thinking, if I don't go into this water, I can't show my face at school tomorrow. You're a chicken, bro. Yes. But what no one tells you about a dam is it's gradually getting deep. So it's not just a hole. So I remember the feeling of sand, river sand, under my feet and going and the smell and the dragonflies and the next thing you know. Feet are not touching the ground anymore. It drops off suddenly. And then the advice starts. Just.

35:49It's the advice. As the water hits the air. Alternating between the advice and the advice. And the advice. And the advice. And then after a while, it's too far to go back. It's too far to go forward. Then I decide to myself, this is not my day. I've got an exam next week. My mom wants me to wash the dishes because I left without washing dishes because I just dropped my school bag and I went home. I said, I'm not going to die now. This is not how it's going to end. Obligation pulled you out. Obligation and responsibility pulled. Because I thought if I die, my mom would come fetch me. And she would embarrass me in front of all the spirits.

36:26You'd be in trouble. I thought, let me... There's nothing that I'm doing now that can save my life except for listening to this advice. And I listened to the advice and the coaching. Kick, kick Palm, palm, palm, palm And I kept on doing that And the next thing you know I was staying up No ways 100 % I was staying up I was staying up Confidence grew And then I was Out to the shallow side And then I just remember being You know Hugged by everyone And thinking You're a hero I was a hero I love this The fact that he didn't Want to die Because he was just worried About what his mother would do That's crazy right I was so worried Just responsibility Yeah I've gotten so many Say something about African mothers too I just thought she had powers to fetch me She would come and fetch me Oh my god, this is like terrible The next day is too Hey, Wena Who said you can drown?

37:12Who said you can drown? Are you drowning? Who said you can die? Oh, mama Did I say you can die? Did I say you can die? When I go home Oh, mom But I'm dead Hey, hey Hey, Wena Hey, Wena You think you're gonna die here Without my permission? Go home Did you wash the dishes? Oh, I didn't wash the dishes Are you bloating? Who said you can bloat? There was no. Full rigor mortis on my watch. Never. Yeah, African mother is the Asian mothers too. Same kind of. Same vibe. Same vibe. So wait, so I mean, obviously, most people don't understand your access to pools determines or bodies of water determines your ability to swim.

37:57So you were growing, where were you growing up? I was growing up in Calcutta. And the thing is that, you know, in our tradition, we don't swim Because you've got to wear a swimming costume How do you swim? You can't go in shorts and a t-shirt, you know Oh, wow So, it's not that There were some cousins Sorry, because it's revealing It's revealing Okay, okay, got it And also, it was just like a lot of strange men around And so, I never even thought that I had to learn how to swim Because it was like things you don't do I have cousins who swim And you know, like my niece swims and a lot of people swim now.

38:31But even at my time, in the 80s in Calcutta, we had a swimming team in school. But because of the kind of heritage I came from, it was a bigger issue and a challenge. And of all the battles that I was fighting, drowning in a dam was not something I was worried about. So I always, from a very young age, I will not go to every battle I'm invited to. so i you know i'll pick i'll pick the battle that i know i'll win as well okay so why go in and swim in water and drown because i'm scared of water so i picked the other battles that i had to fight like you know i was the first girl in my mother's entire you know my generation who went to college nobody went to college i mean the reason i went i mean i make it sound more heroic Like nobody married me because by 18, everybody got married.

39:28But at 18, nobody married me. So then I told my mom, I can't just stay at home. So if you were married, education was not out of the question. At that age. At that age, you know, at 18, you got married and you went off. I mean, like my sister went on and studied after marriage. Okay. So some people did choose to do that. But at 18, you got married. And that was it. That was it. So everybody's marriage was arranged. You know, an arranged marriage is different from forced marriage. Okay. can you explain the difference my favorite type of marriage yeah that one you've come to the right place yes yes so now I need to explain arranged and forced marriage arranged marriage is a bit like being on Tinder but all your family involved so they all choose so it's not your choice and everybody is deciding so you marry and they look at things like you know compatibility you know this person you know likes certain things went to the same education same school same education, speaks the same language, likes the same kind of stuff.

40:27And there are middle people, aunties. Aunties who are a class act because they are interfering, prying, meddling people, but they also arrange marriages because they will ask you things like, so tell me, what music do you listen to? Do you smoke? Have you ever tried to smoke? So they are the ones who ask these questions and then they will carry news about you to other people. But because I was seen as trouble from a very young age because people felt even though I wasn't like defiant and doing crazy things but everyone saw me as someone who wasn't broken by the system that they had not overcome that I was resilient I think they could see it I radiated that at a very young age.

41:14I did not, I was joyous and I loved playing the guitar. I wrote poetry. I played Shakespeare. I, you know, I had, I loved playing cricket and I did things that, you know, were unusual. I had a joy, but I had gratitude every day for me. I was grateful I lived. I was so grateful every sunrise. I would say, yeah, I have another day. I'm going to do something exciting today so i think that this kind of signal to others that you know she may be trouble so i come from a royal family so ideally i should have married in a royal family wait wait you can't just say that and move on yeah my both my father father's family mother's family both royal family okay and my parents but but help help us understand because you know as you know from south africa sometimes people will be from royal bloodlines but we mean like chiefs and clans and it doesn't mean that they live in a palace so when you say royal family what does that well our palace i should have lived in but it's a crumbling edifice okay so we have a palace and we have a fortress got it uh but we're not like you know we don't go back generations of royalty so maybe only 200 years of you know become becoming royal before that we were thieves Oh Isn't that all royals?

42:36Yeah No I'm being for real though Which royals Just started as royals? Yeah yeah So we We also need a visa To the UK Yeah yeah Let's not About that diamond No but But let's be honest now Which royals Did not start as thieves? Now we're gonna act like You were just born And ordained a royal Yeah No If you wanna be a royal You've gotta steal enough Yeah For long enough Yes that you become so powerful that you then then you declare that you're royal and then your lineage starts to now clean it up so like you know our ancestors claimed that they were descended from the sun there you go and you know descended from sun and moon and you know basically so basically we were thugs we used to loot caravans the caravans going across the desert wow we looted caravans that's my favorite part of your heritage yeah yeah so that's why we were thugs and we then basically I prefer listeners yeah that's a separate thing as well But we were not that.

43:33We stole. We just stole. It didn't take money to. And essentially, then we were made royals and quietened down and given land, a lot of land. And we became, we were very rich after that. But they would have wanted me to marry in that same kind of, I don't want to use the word lightly, but it's class. They wanted me to marry in that same kind of level of, you know, of the other families that, you know, my sister had got married to or other cousins. that ain't happening with me because everybody who is a feudal and has a feudal son, I would beat at cricket. So, and I would probably beat at boxing too.

44:11I would beat at everything. It sounds like you were fierce at cricket. The way you talk about how much you played cricket. I was so embarrassed because recently I met in a random place. This guy was like, you know, I was your neighbor. I used to play cricket with you. And then suddenly my bad luck, you know, there are times when the room gets quiet. They said And you hit me with a cricket bat And then suddenly I was like Oh my god I remember him I remember hitting him With a cricket bat You remember him Yeah I remember after Hit him on purpose or Yeah Why do you Don't accidentally hit people With cricket bats You know what I'm saying Yeah I'm giving the benefit Of the doubt No no no And the person who was Pushed into a pool Yes You should know intention Versus mistakes Yeah So I did hit him Because he was cheating And How was he cheating He told me I was out Oh And I wasn't out And we didn't have Because nobody wants to be an umpire Yeah nobody wants to be an umpire It's a kind of It's mob rule They all declare that you're out But when the When the bowler says you're out Then kind of Too many people were saying That I was out I was the only girl In the whole gang But did How did you Because I want to know Why did you hit him then I want to know which I hit him because I was not out No also Also the bat was mine I took the bat home Damn Asma was out here Running these cricket streets Yeah Did you play in those?

45:29So when I went to India, I saw like huge fields where there's just... No, we didn't play in the field. There's like a hundred cricket games happening at the same time. That's the great... This is our religion. Cricket is an obsession in India. No, we played on the street. And then we had someone in the string stopping cars. And then we would all clear out. So we played just outside our house, but on the street. And then because in the 80s, we had a Marxist government running Bengal. so there were very frequent strikes. You know, there was a lot of labor unrest at that time. So then we would go onto the main street because there were no cars and because mobs were burning cars that were going around, we knew no car was on the street.

46:08Then we played on a big road and then we could have like a lot of space. That was your lord. Yeah. Otherwise we had, we used to just play on a narrow road outside my house. What was your forte? Bowling or batting? Bowling. Bowling, I can tell. Bowling. Why did you assume bowling? Fierce. Oh, okay. I was to bowl, but the thing is that, yeah, so I was so embarrassed. And everybody turned around. And I was just died of embarrassment because I was so apologetic to him. I apologized like, you know, 40, 50 years ago. I hit him and I told him I was so sad. No, I don't think so hard. He did cry, but it wasn't that hard.

46:43It was more the humiliation. You can tell how much you've changed. You've gone the opposite way because you go, the guy says, you hit me with a cricket bat. And then you're like, I apologize, I apologize. does, I feel like in that situation someone goes, you hit me with a cricket bat and you go, do you want me to do it again? Shut up. Do you want me to do it again? Bringing this up in 40 years later. Do you want me to do it again? That was very embarrassing. Because I couldn't recognize him. He kept saying, do you recognize me? Do you recognize me? That means you hit him hard. If he remembers 40 years later, you did a good one.

47:21I couldn't. I was too embarrassed. I said, no, I can't. did you remember at the beginning no i didn't remember you know people change in 40 years so i might recognize him but then he told me but you hit me with a bad night immediately who he was i knew his name i knew the match i knew exactly where we were wow and i remember hitting him yeah i'm not proud of this i'm very embarrassed that i hit people when i was but then in cricket that's how problem is when you when you're very young it and you play street cricket these things happen but they're not very frequent so i think i think we need more of those things you know we were talking to um jonathan hates on the podcast a while ago but like in general eugene and i talk about this i talk about it with my friends i think there's a shortage of that in the world today and i don't mean it in like an old man like in my day you're used to no i think it i think it was great that we used to live in a world where kids would go outside have their own conflicts have their own resolutions have their own stories have but also you define your own world without your parents yeah do you get what i'm saying you define your own world without an authority figure that's looming over you i think now we're like growing a generation of people who are always looking to something and not not just doing this yeah just what is this conversation what is this disagreement what is this lesson that you're learning you're swimming that's something that's formed you as Eugene, you know, whether you like it or not.

48:46And I always wonder what would happen to people when their whole lives have been defined by the moments that they had with their parents because they never had moments alone, essentially. Yeah. Like, I love that kids used to do that. I wish more kids would do that. Go outside, get hit with a cricket bat. It's a very different world. And the thing is, you can see this when the moment there is a crisis and it's so much worse after COVID, you know, I run a restaurant in my 41 staff. the moment there's a crisis the fear and the panic there is no attempt like you know you know advice that you know use your arms and your legs get out because the thing is that when you have been in a difficult situation and you overcome there is a memory it's in your dna you now remember It alters your DNA.

49:35Yeah, that you did it, that you got out of it. And whenever I've had terrible things happen to me, and the success is a veneer that hides behind a lot of battles that I still have to fight, which no one else has to, who's in my position, but I have to. I worry about this younger generation for whom, you know, challenge is something that is so different from what we faced, you know. It's not that drowning moment. It's not that panic. It's not that. And you worry. And I've spent a lot of time with young people now telling them that you are the future leaders. You must believe in yourself. If you do not believe in yourself, no one will believe in you.

50:28And as a leader, you must be willing to go out first. When you go into battle, you carry that sword. And maybe it's because I come from this ancient warrior tribe. But I remember this as a child. My father would always say, you know, you've got to stand up. You've got to believe. Because most of the battle is won in your head. Because otherwise, you're lost. If you don't back yourself, no one will back you. Yeah, and why should they? Yeah, absolutely. But there's a whole generation now who doesn't think that this is a thing, that you back yourself. And I worry. I worry a lot. But I'm also optimistic because I hope that they grow a backbone, they grow resilience in their souls, and they stand up for justice and right and equality.

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53:03I feel like young people today, like the younger generation, they may have been shielded on an interpersonal level a little bit more, but I think they're facing like a more systemic issue than we were in a way. And I could be wrong about this, but I find, I think it like Gen Z and that young generation, I think they were the first ones, for instance, to sort of break the internet and how we see it. If you look at how they use Instagram and how older people use Instagram, they were like, we don't care about the artifice. We're not going to try and make this fake. We're not going to try and make it beautiful.

53:36We're not going to try and invent a world that doesn't exist. We'll show you the messy. We'll show you the gritty. This was the picture. This was the realist moment that existed. Like, look at the kids now booing AI. Yeah. You know, all these commencement speeches that are taking place. and you've got these CEOs and everything coming to a college and being like, let me tell you how your life will turn. And then as soon as they mention AI, these kids start booing them. To me, that's amazing because I don't know about you, but I feel like our generation wouldn't have booed the AI institutional thing.

54:10But we were dealing with like interpersonal scuffles and family and life and friends. You know what I mean? We were almost dealing with like the micro. and they're dealing with the macro, I feel like. And so maybe they'll be, I don't know, I don't want to use the word weaker, but maybe they'll be a little less resilient than we are in some interpersonal instances. But I think on a societal level, the younger generation is coming through with a fierceness that I wish we had sometimes, to be honest. I also think us not, I'll speak for our generation growing up, the way we did. Our parents are not around because they couldn't be around.

54:48Yeah, that's true. So that's one thing. And what I've noticed is how we behaved was totally influenced by what we had. So if your parent goes to work, then at the end of the month, in 30 days, they get a salary. That salary gets to do whatever needs to be done so that life can go on. I understood from a very early age that soon time will come for me to find a job and be that person. So every moment after school was a good time with my friends Because I knew it wasn't promised It wasn't I didn't see any other 25-year-olds having a good time with us at the dam So I knew that when you get older You're going to have to guess a certain way Get a job, have responsibility Stay in the back room of your house Until you meet someone And then afford a house of your own So there was always that moment of I have to enjoy this I have to play soccer after school I have to go play with my friends We have to go hunt for birds We have to go learn how to swim we have to share one BMX bicycle amongst the 10 of us and one soccer ball.

55:48So the other one gets responsibility with their Christmas monies. You know, when the other one gets a BMX, the other one gets a ball, the other one gets a this, the other one. So we had this communal, we were bonded by our trauma because we saw what it did to our parents. And it happens, especially when you look at pictures, when you think my mom was 35 with three kids at that time. It's crazy. And she had already been working for this long. Yeah, it's crazy. And then waking up at this time and earning this much. And then I go, what excuse do I have when a flight is delayed, when this happens, when that happens?

56:21So I get to look at life like that. And I was fortunate enough from an early age that I would wake up in the morning and go, let's get it started. I'd never struggle waking up. I never struggled getting ready for school because I knew that as soon as you leave, the good times begin. I hated sleeping because I was like, ah, now we have to end the good times. The good times have come to an end. Yeah, the good times have come to an end. But where did, I want to understand like how your journey leads to food because, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, the girl who's out playing cricket and hitting people with a bat and writing poetry and playing guitar and in none of these stories are you mentioning food.

57:00And yet sitting here with you at this table, your name is more synonymous with food than it is with cricket or with assault or with guitar or with poetry.

57:13So I want to understand, where does that happen? You're growing up as this young girl in Kolkata, India. You're forging your own path. But where does food come in? I love to eat. When I was growing up in India, I had always presumed that I would marry a prince. And I would be some princess in some palace. And I'd have lots of cooks and be spoiled. It wasn't something that excited me. It's not really something I wanted to do. but I kind of presumed so I didn't know how to cook because girls didn't cook really I mean in our family because especially my house because my mother had a catering business so we had more cooks than everybody else so you know it was mad our house was like constantly full of food and just to cut you off there so help me understand I don't know how you know sometimes we'll simplify India or make it seem like it's like one place everywhere way.

58:07And there were some parts of India that I went to where people said most people sort of weren't cooking. They were just getting the food from places. Is that true? How does that work? So, I mean, the thing is that there is, I always find it challenging when people think India as like a kind of a homogeneous. That's what I mean, yeah. And it's never like that. And there are huge differences from the north to the south. But also our food-wise, you know, there's wheat growing areas where people have roti. There are rice growing areas. Wheat can grow in drier soil. And for rice, you need a lot of water.

58:42Rice grows in water. And so there's loads of differences. And we are a very, even three villages away in India, you know, the baghar, which is the tempering of dal, is done differently. So we're not a society where people are all together. There's huge differences in people. And in my household, my father and my mother never ate the same food. My father came from the north. If he saw a fish and if he saw eye of fish, he would just like almost pass out. He found, and my mother loved fish because she grew up and was born near the ocean and the rivers. And my dad was landlocked, never saw fish when he was growing up.

59:23So there's huge differences between my parents. But because I grew up in Calcutta, which is the food capital of India, best kind of food, you know, it was where so many cultures were there. You know, the food there is incredible. I didn't learn how to cook because I didn't have to. When my marriage was arranged with my husband, who was teaching at Cambridge University through an aunt, and my poor husband was like, you know, oh, my God, I don't think I want to do it. I convinced him overnight to cook no to marry me I told him I said you know you walk away from this it's the biggest mistake of your life you have no idea what I'm capable of I am gonna bring so much joy in your life where is this happening so yeah I convinced my husband and yeah it didn't happen poor guy he's an innocent man he's still married to me he requires a medal you know he believed in the story and he's you know very how old are you when this is happening so I was 21 22.

1:00:22Okay. And I realized this is my one chance to marry an intelligent guy because I'd asked my parents. Wait, so this is also arranged. So the Tinder family had gotten together. That's why you're my friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get down to the cost. Yeah, yeah. So they found this person. They lied to him and they brought him to Calcutta under some pretext, which is not to see a girl. Because he would never have come. He would never have come because, you know, my husband was not into all this arranged marriage stuff. he was teaching in Oxford and then he was teaching at Cambridge in his kind of ivory tar academic professor in economics a tweet jacket absolutely a mustache and beard and cycling with looking like Batman in his black gown that guy so he was that guy and also on paper I am feudal I come from royalty so I'm everything that he's against politically.

1:01:21So politically, he is left of center, you know, works with, you know, works on poverty, on corruption, on, you know, on, you know, failing states, all of that. He's not trying to end up with some princess. No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I realized, oh, wow, because I told my mother, please, I want to marry an intelligent person. You might find any intelligent man, I will marry him. So they found this guy. Well, I realized I have one evening to convince him. And I told him this. I said, you know, look at me and don't see the princess in me because I am, you know, I am fun. I do this. I can do that.

1:02:00I didn't tell him I could cook, but I did tell him I don't know how to cook. But then, this was much later after he'd agreed to marry me. He told me, oh, I don't believe in gender roles. I'll cook. I know how to cook. You don't worry. You just come and, you know, enjoy your life the last three months. Then I went into this kind of princess kind of mode where I had this grand wedding, which I planned you know everything including all the food yeah so it was it was so good that I managed to I managed to convince him to marry me and the relief of all these aunts somebody agreed to marry Asma and all the aunts that we didn't want to come to the wedding came just to make sure that they watched me getting married my mother was like you know why is everybody saying yes to the wedding I think because they're coming to make sure it happens to witness this absolutely incredible experience of seeing me getting married yeah and I got married and it was very exciting and I didn't know how to cook came to Cambridge ate the really bad food that Mushtaq made shockingly bad food but he said he was good no I didn't say he was good he just knew how to cook that's what he told me he just didn't know how to cook there's a difference yeah it's the same way when you told me you know how to cook I was like oh boy here we go because Eugene did this for me Eugene was like he was like oh why don't I I can cook your your favorite dish or whatever because I was trying to so I love pig trotters yeah right generally any like You can't call them pig trotters Okay Any hoof Okay Whatever Trotter or trotter Any hoof You know what I mean So we have paya Nehari Right So pig, cow You name it Anything with the hoof I'm in The gelatinous I love gelatinous food Of course So You can't really find much of it Especially like Hunanese I think that's how you pronounce it Cuisine in South Africa So Eugene one day says to me He goes Yo Why don't I I can cook that for you Then I was like Shame my friend He's really This is like a lovely gesture But completely unnecessary Do you know what I mean?

1:03:57And then he was like He's like I was like what do you mean? Then Eugene said Oh I cook Then I went Ah I understand what he means He means That he will put food Together on a stove Heat it up And then ingest it Now many people can cook Yes Most people shouldn't cook Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah I've met many people who can cook I've met many people who say You should come over, I will cook And then when you go there you go I pray this never happens again I pray this This thing you've done to me Should never be done to another person If I could call the Hague, I would Because of what In fact, I'm shocked that you spent time doing this The fact that you said We'll be busy for the next few hours And then this is what you made Oh my god This So when people tell me They can cook I I take it as a Yeah So I understand But he can actually like Make food that is delicious Yeah But I understand what you're saying He said he can cook He can cook Yes And that's what he did He cooked Yeah The food was no longer raw Yeah Is what it means Yeah It was cooked That's all it means It was cooked But that's when I really realized That I could not change The weather of where I'd moved to.

1:05:14And I come from Bengal where the trees are lush. And I moved to Cambridge in January and all the trees had lost their leaves. I'm that generation where we didn't have internet. Obviously, you know, I predate all of that. And because of the government that we had in West Bengal, we didn't see a lot of films from abroad. So you didn't see a lot of Western films. I saw Love Story and I remember crying. Ryan O 'Neill, oh my God, so gorgeous. And then I saw Snow and you know that. But how do you go to an encyclopedia in a library to see pictures? I'm that generation. So I was a shock. I felt, and then there was this bad food at home.

1:05:51Then I went out. It was bloody freezing. And all the bark in the tree was raw. And I felt this was me, that the tree would never have a spring. I would never have a spring. Oh, wow. And it was this kind of, I was so lost. And I yearned for home. and I realized that the one thing I could do to change things I couldn't even talk to my parents because it's no internet no mobile nothing and I realized that I had to cook because in the aromas in that kitchen I would have felt the presence of my mother because I would have felt she'd come next to me and it was food became then not uh not something i ate but it became everything my identity my culture my religion my everything my name and so i came to start cooking not out of a sense of, sorry, my mom is wonderful, but I realize how lucky I am.

1:07:04Every day she lives there and she cooks for me. And now she's kind of not remembering things too well, that she still manages to cook for me. It's a privilege and an honor. But 30 odd years ago, I cooked and I felt as the aromas of the spices and everything and that I was connecting not just to my mother, but to my ancestors, to the matriarchs who had gone. I was now connected through food. So for me, food is not about, you know, yes, I love eating and I enjoy cooking, but food for me is about identity. It's about power. It's about language. And so much of the challenges that we face today, we have not used food as one of the tools to talk about justice.

1:07:55Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. And, you know, there's things like that I will not use. I hesitate to use. Like poppy seeds in Bengal, poppy seeds is used a lot. Yeah. But because I did my first degree in history, I know why we're using poppy seeds. We're using poppy seeds because the British forced the farmers on my land to grow puppy, to get an entire population in China addicted to opium so that they could get tea for free, literally for nothing, and export it. Their desire for tea, they used farmers, my brothers on my land to grow. And the problem is that when you grow, and they controlled the price.

1:08:38It was a cash crop. They controlled the price. They had a whole department controlling the price of puppy. The farmer had nothing to, no money left to buy food. So his wife, the farmer's wife, poppy seeds are hard. Crushed them, soaked it and crushed it. So they fill the belly of the children. So they ate, they added poppy seeds to whatever little they had. I refuse to use poppy seeds. So if food is not just about my identity, food is also about speaking about injustice. and the fact that we don't talk about these things. It's almost like, you know, why should we talk about it? No, I want to talk about slavery.

1:09:16I want to talk about colonialism. I think that British children and school should be taught about the empire. Yes, learn about the Tudor history and all of this. Very good. But you need to know. So when you push a child, a brown-skinned, dark-skinned child, and say, go back home, you need to know why that person is there on the land why they you know they were invited as guests after the war so many families that doesn't i know why they're there in the first place why are they here don't the problem is they don't understand they don't understand the wealth of britain was built on the blood of my people and i see so much of the food the fact the spices were traded and it's not just you know the indian east india company the dutch east india company oh yes we're well familiar with it and the atrocities so i think that food should be a lesson in history and justice and that is i first came to food out of just loneliness i missed my home i missed my parents.

1:10:31I missed being that child and being free of responsibility in this ivory tower in this university. I was abandoned and left alone. And I struggled. And, you know, my husband's a nice guy, but, you know, he's an academic and a bad cook. And, you know, he's a very, very below average cook and you know and he like asma still got that cricket bat out here it's just metaphorical now that cricket bat is ready anytime i don't know and he would spend the whole night writing and listening to opera and i thought opera was the worst thing possible wow i never heard opera in my life really an academic yeah yeah and it was like you know i'm dead i want to listen to you know i want to listen to brian adams i want to listen to madonna you know i was like in the 80s Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:11:50borders are there, but even just a tree that grows, where is the nourishment really coming from? And I've always been interested in justice because, I mean, and that's why I did law and I went on to do a PhD because I think that it's important to understand and to be unafraid to challenge authority. Because with knowledge, the reason why there's so much racism and so easy to ignite, you know, hatred is ignorance. If people understood, you know, why is this, you know, Jamaican person sitting next to me in my class? I'm going to tell this person, you know, that, you know, go back home. I'm going to tell the South Asian child that your food smells, you know, your mom smells.

1:12:37Did you know that the wealth was built on spices that is the base of that curry that that child has eaten? If you don't understand all of this, you're going to be ignorant and you will easily be persuaded by people telling you random things or you've got to hate them. And it's, you know, the fact that, you know, an element in my skin inside has made me a shade darker. How am I a threat to you? I bring with me the vibrant culture, the color, the music, the spices. I bring life, you know, and yet you want to hate me because of the way I look, because of my skin tone. I pity you. I want to sit with you.

1:13:21I want to break bread with you. I want to tell you about my people. If you get up from that table having eaten with me and still want to hate my people, I forgive you because that's my culture. Wow. I will let you go. But first, I must be able to tell you the stories. This is why, you know, in the Quran, the Torah, the Bible, there's always this thing about breaking bread. Always. But for me, that is so important. It's not about peace. It's that shared moment. When I break bread with you and you, we have had a shared moment. We've all had our different journeys coming to this table. When we eat the same thing, we talk about what connects us.

1:13:58You might tell me about the bread you ate or you tell me about something that you ate. And then we all realize there is more that connects us than divides us. Food is the greatest way to connect people. And as an immigrant, as a Muslim living in England, I built a successful restaurant. And I always say I could only have done it in London where people are open-hearted. I managed to kind of build a business, an immigrant business with an all-immigrant female kitchen. And we have been embraced. I don't know many other cities where I could have done it. I haven't tried it anywhere else. but food has been used for too long as if we become consumers.

1:14:42And leaving religion out of it, you know, and completely leaving religion out of it. We no longer say grace when we see food. We take our phone and take a picture. And if it's a nice picture, we post it on Instagram or we send it to our friends. It's become a tool of how successful you are. You know, I'm in this really posh place. I'm eating this fancy stuff. or even if you're in street food, you know, because you've had the ability to travel to Mali or some exotic... It's a signifier. It tells you who... So the food is part of that storytelling. That, you know, I'm not just in this cool place.

1:15:14This is what I'm eating. And we've become consumers. We see it as our right. The fact that eating is a privilege, a privilege that not everybody has, not in the past, even today, that hunger is in our midst. So unlike a lot of other chefs, where they use food to show off, to impress people. To make art. Yeah. I'm no artist, but I am the storyteller you need in your life. Oh, damn, I love that. So this is the thing. I never see my, you know, and I think it's so important because this is, everyone can relate to that beautiful meal. And, you know, in our culture, not anymore, and our kids are sitting on tablets and watching stuff.

1:15:59You know, you see, and I don't remember, of course, I was too small, but I remember seeing other children being made to sit on the lap of the mother and fed by hand. Yes, yes. And the touch on the lips of the rice. Wow. And you can't replicate this as an adult. But I want people to understand that food is spiritual. Food is healing. it's the most powerful language of love and even if someone turns around and says oh you're all fuddy-duddy and this is all I don't care I want to be emotional I have the right to be emotional and I have the right to use food as part of that emotional language Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this Feeling short on smiles?

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1:18:07Well, people might say that to you, but I would challenge anyone to think of their favorite meals and disassociate them from a memory. Yeah. There's nothing more powerful than biting something, drinking something, tasting something, and immediately being taken back to a moment, a memory, a person, an experience, a time, a place. You can't, you can't, the other, this was one of my favorite moments, because I'll remember it. I don't think she will, but one of my best friend's daughters, she's now, I guess, you know, in the 18 months or something, somewhere that, you know, baby ages, this or whatever.

1:18:52So they were eating Thai food together. So it's myself and it's him and it's his two girls, right? Twins, really young. And all they wanted to eat was the rice. So they keep going, more. They only got like 10 words maybe now. more so i put rice on the table we eat we eat more put more rice on the table they don't eat the curry or anything else that that comes with the with the food but then on the on like one corner of the rice some of the the spicy sauce had like touched the rice so cora takes the rice she puts it in her mouth and then like you know when you you can see something that has never happened is happening now so she first like she glitches and then she like opens her mouth to try and take it out but there's nothing there anymore and she looks and then she looks at us and then she looks at her dad and she's like and then you know when the spice is like warming up inside the mouth inside the mouth inside the mouth yo bro the way she cried but it was it was like a funny cry because she wasn't crying like somebody was hurting her she was crying out of confusion and literally I said to him, I was like, you do realize, I was like, obviously she stopped crying because it wasn't the worst thing in the world.

1:20:11But I was like, this is a memory that comes from this, like this moment. I'm like you and he'll tell you, when it comes to food, I'm exactly the same as you. Because things happen around food. You know, friendships are made. Stories are shared. Hearts are opened. And there's like a... He ignored me when the trotters came out. Ah, my man. My man. I did the opposite. How grateful was I to you? Yeah, you were. I sent this guy pictures later on that night of like... Like you don't even understand. Because when somebody prepares food for you, and that's one of the biggest reasons I'm so sad that we have food delivery services.

1:20:56I understand they've made life convenient. I understand it. You say this all the time. But I think we take for granted and we haven't yet studied what we lose when you don't hear the food being prepared. You don't see the food being prepared. You also, most importantly, do not see who is preparing your food. That is so important. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You don't see who is preparing your food. And to your point, if we live in a world where we are separated from the labor that is providing anything for us, how can we then appreciate said labor? You know? Sure. Yeah. How do we even begin to, and I know some people might be like, oh, that's, you know, to reduce it to something.

1:21:42But I think of somebody like Mohamed Salah in Liverpool, right? Mohamed Salah Demonstrably changed People's attitudes Towards Muslims In and around Liverpool And I would argue in England Right Yes Just by being himself And doing his thing But would the effect Have been the same If you didn't see him You just heard about The goals being scored But you didn't know Who scored them Someone just scored goals For Liverpool Yeah And got assists for Liverpool It wouldn't be the same There's something powerful in seeing the person prepare the food. Who is this person? Oh, who are those people in the kitchen?

1:22:21Who is in my kitchen? That thing is so magical. And I think it creates a gratitude in us that we've taken for granted. Yes, yes. And I haven't now. I'm just moving locations to a bigger site in London. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. It's stressful, but it has an open kitchen. and the thing with open kitchens in in london especially central london because of the cost of rent all kitchens are in the basement you don't see you don't see the people you don't see the people there where the bathrooms are usually in the basement yes and it doesn't make sense because that's the money space you know massive open kitchen but for me the honor comes from that i have two grandmothers i've got three mothers i've got a kitchen of 12 women who are cooking and singing in rhythm.

1:23:10And so we have now moved to a bigger open kitchen. I've always, you know, I love Kingly Court where I was right now, but I've had to move because, you know, it was just getting too small for us. And I found this amazing site and it's just off-picketerly circus. And these things matter because this is my flag in the ground for all those women and all those men who cook hidden behind walls. I have opened it up. Watch us. We are cooking not as a show. We're not trying to impress you, but we want to remind you that someone is laboring for food. And even just, you know, I do a lot of work with farmers and I've always felt that, you know, the way chefs look at ingredients is their God-given right.

1:23:54And anyone who comes to my restaurant will never get okra. I do not want a jet-lagged okra on my table because it was flown from Africa or Asia in a plane. I do not want. So I only serve, you know, some stuff comes from Europe because of British weather, you have no choice. And a lot of it is British. But, you know, I make aloo gopi matah. I make really traditional Indian stuff, no fusion stuff. But I use ingredients close by. Because I think that this whole thing of hospitality, the customer's always right. No, the customer is wrong if they want to eat out of season. No, do you know that that phrase, by the way, this is one of my great joys in life.

1:24:32He'll tell you about this. I love, more than most things in the world, digging into the history of - Yeah, the anthropology of phrases. Yes. The customer's always right. Do you know that that's not the phrase? Really? That is not the full phrase. Okay, I'm going to get a master lesson now for him. No, really. So we've grown up. I grew up thinking that, right? I remember, I think - Because we heard it all the time. We hear it everywhere. The customer's always right That's what they'd say The customer's always right And we believe it means That if a person is Buying or doing something Then they are right And they must be Catered to 100 % No The full phrase is not The customer's always right The phrase is I'll read it out to you So I get it proper But it's basically The customer's always right In matters of taste But when it comes to I'll read it to you Oh my god Yeah yeah Basically the full phrase means This idiot doesn't know anything They're right when it comes to What they want to choose for themselves But it doesn't mean that they're right Oh man No, no, no I'll read you the full one I have no idea I promise you So how did you dig this up?

1:25:36I just love it Every time I hear a phrase That doesn't make sense to me Because I started So okay, the first one was Blood is thicker than water I fought with this my whole life Right? Because I remember like My mom would You would talk about struggles With her family And I would go But mom, you know oh, family is the most important thing. Blood is thicker than water. You have to. And then I would meet people who struggled with their families. People who - Who can't cut them off. Yeah. People who had families that were, you know, running the spectrum. Everything from abusive all the way through to just dismissive, let's say.

1:26:09But people realized that they were not of their family. Right? And what would society always say to us? Blood is thicker than water. Hey, blood is thicker than water. You go and you make up with your family. Of course. Blood is thicker than water. don't you your family you can't choose your family it's the only family and they'd always say blood's thicker than water and then one day i discovered the full phrase and it is the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb yeah that's the full phrase the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb yeah it means the exact opposite when they say blood is thicker than water which they shortened and then people misunderstood yeah what they mean is the blood that you make in a the blood pact in a bond yeah with friendship or with chosen family is more important than the water in the womb you didn't choose this person they might not have chosen you you don't choose the people who surround them no the people that came from it it's not as important as who you choose so who are the idiots who have used it and then we are mutated it to no because they shorten it they just shorten it as time goes it gets shorter and shorter yeah I'll read you I think it actually came Funny enough From Selfridges If I remember correctly Yeah It was like a full You know And it just It morphed over time Oh yeah Yeah here it was So it was All the person said was The customer's always right In matters of taste And that was it But it was in matters of taste But we left it at the customer He's always right They're not now I'm wondering what Kesha's team came from this is so interesting because I had I do have difficult people from my own community my you know South Asian especially men someone asked me can you take the the price of the dal off the menu and so they so my manager came I said we're taking the dal off because he didn't like it I said no but he ate it I'm going to go and ask this customer is always right kind of situation in heaven.

1:28:20So I walked up to him and I said, you know, did you not like the dal because you ate it and you want to take it off? He said, it doesn't taste like the dal my mother made. And I was like, but your mother's not working in my kitchen. I'm so sorry. So I was like, you know, I always tell you, Asma, you are busy kicking that Michelin star away day by day. Oh, no, no. No, no. I never aspired for a Michelin star. Because Michelin is so, the whole basis is excluding people like me. Because they're looking for a standard, which is so French, which is so white, which is so much about alcohol pairing. It is about, you know, the appearance.

1:29:09if I was given a one inch food on a 10 inch plate this is Michelin standard and I have something drizzled and rough and there's a poof and a puff and if I need to eat so much edible grass and edible flowers I'd go graze in a field I don't want it on my plate and I don't want to sit for two hours getting one inch food at a time after the third one inch food I wouldn't even know what I'm eating I always look at that standard and I'm thinking that was the biggest food colonization scam that has ever been perpetuated. People want to travel for so long for familiarity. They wanted to eat what they know everywhere they went.

1:29:47How crazy is that? That that became the standard of what good food is? But again, that one was an interesting one, is like when you look at the, I love that you, essentially, if I heard you, the subtext of what you're saying is like, we take for granted how political food is. And not political as in like, who did you vote for, not vote for, no. It tells a very complicated story Of the people that came before it You know what I mean? There's no food that does not contain a story Yes Who moved? Who was forced to move? How were they forced to move? What did they do to survive? What were they forced to grow?

1:30:20It's all in the food, right? The same thing goes for those quantities of food So if you look at old, you know, like history You know, and like we only have images Obviously there are no photos But the stories that were told What was the way you displayed your wealth? Through massive amounts of food Right The richest would eat gluttonous amounts of food Yeah They would have banquets that would go on for days Yes A pig with an apple in his mouth Yes And the way you would show that you were rich Is by eating more food than you needed to eat Getting big Throwing it up by the way Come back again Yeah They'd go They'd throw up They'd come back and eat some more And so this is happening all throughout like England and France and all of these places.

1:31:07But this is like how the rich live because the peasants can't have as much food. Then what happens? We discover this thing called farming and industrial farming. And we create this new way of mass producing food, right? What does it do to the price of food? It brings it down. What does it now mean for the poor people? They can also eat more. And then the rich people went, I don't want to be the same as... but they also have a full plate and I have a full, we're all the same now. I don't want that. And so now the true measure of wealth. Is how little you eat. Was to show how much you could pay for how little you could get.

1:31:44And so it became this thing of like, Oh, it's the best explanation I've heard of it. It literally became that. And so it, it became a, it's like poor people have a plate full of food. And so the way you would show how classy you are was that you had, you had so little, it was just a tiny little amount and a, I'll graze and I'll nibble. And that became the new signifier of class and power and wealth. And poor people had lots of food and like, you know what I mean? And it's actually crazy how that thing goes back and forth. It's so fascinating what you've just said because it deeply concerns me.

1:32:22And also in India, for us, food, there's rice, there's roti, there's things. now all Indian fine dining the ones that are Michelin star they serve food that I don't recognize and the fact that it's gone into this one inch stuff with no rice, no bread, no nothing it's unrecognizable and they've put caviar and they've put truffle oil which is like the worst thing in the universe in any case thank you someone said it absolutely overrated beyond belief and I think French food is also overrated just that damn asthma shots fired no because you know so much butter and cream you know wow you know i put so much butter and cream in my shoe it might taste nice but it is uh it just is you know i'm no offense man you know it's a great cuisine i'm sure that you know this brigade system all of that they have a great history and i'm not insulting any french cuisine please can i have that caveat like yeah you please yeah i i love french men and i love french cuisine sorry if I said that but it's true it's true I love the French men as well there's nothing to do with the men there's nothing to do with the men and then Asma was like I'm sorry about the I love French men and I love the food as well how?

1:33:39we weren't saying nothing about the men and Asma just threw that in out of nowhere no no do you realize one thing I did a law degree so you know this is that you cover yourself in every idea so this is you now so this is me building defense okay got it got it you're building up the case for possible denomination So in case I get into trouble, let me try everything. Oh, I have to say I like French women as well. These are all the clauses. These are clauses, I see. But I mean, yes, I think it's over. I think the problem is the fact that very few people say this. And, you know, I want to say this, that there's a lot of racism when it comes to what is elevated cuisine.

1:34:20Oh, of course. And the fact that French, Italian even, and when it comes to Asian, now you have, you know, Korean and Japanese food is seen as elevated. But so much of our cuisine, you know, and especially when you look at Africa and you look at large swathes of South Asia as well, you know, Middle East, it's seen as cheap and cheerful. Our food is all about wholesome, cheerful food. this fact that we are not seen as sophisticated i remember someone telling me asma no one's going to pay 139 pounds to come for your biryani we sold out within minutes and i said no this is my price tag i want to end this monopoly of this tattooed you know aggressive testosterone driven madman who's in a stainless steel empire, beating up people, allowed to beat up people, yes, shouting and screaming in this tormented soul has produced this dish.

1:35:19I'll get indigestion, please. I don't want to eat it. And I just feel that, you know, why is it that we are, you know, we, our food heritage in Africa, in everywhere, goes back, you know, centuries. We grew food, you know, this is the cradle of civilization. We actually, you know, so much of what we eat today is because of what happened in our lands, nourished in our lands, our soil. Please don't dismiss us. Do not walk over the souls of our ancestors and see that our food is not sophisticated. Today, the world eats because of us, because of our farmers. And in the dust that flies are the roof or the soul of these amazing men and women who grew crops.

1:36:06No one is telling their story. And this is what bothers me, that, you know, we are not seen, our food is not seen as sophisticated. Immigrant food in too many places is seen as, you know, ethnic food. We are bracketed in, yeah, and, you know, be cheap, be spicy, you know. And so in England, you have people who say, oh, you know, this is a hangover, you know, cure. You go for a vindaloo. people go to these you know what they call curry houses and have beer and are aggressive and just drink a lot and eat a lot please stop because it's a desecration yes it is it is and the problem is no one is saying it and if it means that someone doesn't want to come to my restaurant because they find my politics uncomfortable let them not come exactly the king came to my restaurant and he was amazing he was amazing and I think that if the king of England can come to your restaurant come into your kitchen and packed biryani for, you know, refugee families that were sitting outside.

1:37:07He was packing biryani for himself, but also for the refugee families. This is the great equalizer from one pot. Food is very powerful. We should be unafraid. But the problem is that in this desire to succeed, you will not find chefs talking about these things, not talking about power and equality. and you have this fringe of these people who I'm also uncomfortable with talking about, you know, environment and sustainability at a huge price tag. So this particular dish, the moisture in that was the rainforest from whatever it dropped from a leaf and this milk came and the moon was full and the cow was happy and they sang a song and they massaged the cow and then did yoga.

1:37:51The cow's cholesterol. Yeah, yeah. So this also drives me mad because again, you are twisting food into some kind of, you know, you're separating it out. Well, essentially what's happening, you're right, is, you know, I always fall back on the phrase. It was a beautiful one that I read once. I think it was actually a British author. She said, I can't wait for the world to get over race so that we can realize we're all dealing with class. And fundamentally, that's all this is, right? it is it is a way for people to define how much their class is superior to somebody else's and it doesn't matter how they do it so to your point with quote-unquote ethnic food why is it ethnic so then where's the center then where is the the normal if that's the ethnic the second thing is like the food itself i find it interesting even when you're talking about it that people make it seem like those foods are not a default at all they are being they are the things you eat when you're going off in between yeah yeah adventurous yeah adventurous yes oh yeah no no i couldn't oh i couldn't then it's like no no no no no no adventurous is eating food that has no spice that's adventurous when i see people that eat food with no flavor i'm like wow you're truly you're you're adventurous how do you eat fluid it has no flavor bro The food that we Like I think people take for granted How some of these things Are used to define Even what we're supposed to aspire to Yeah Right So to your point You know how many kids I mean adults now But how many people would talk about When they were kids Korean Indian You name it They had distinct cuisines And they were embarrassed Their whole lives as kids Oh yeah Embarrassed Yeah My best friend in school When I was growing up Thyssen Pillay Hated the fact that his mom gave him curry Every single day To take in a sandwich We became friends mostly because of this We swapped our curry Like I gave him the money that my mom would give me for food He'd give me his curry sandwiches Every day when I would eat it I was like Bruh I don't understand how You don't think this is the greatest food ever But most of it boiled down to the fact that He felt like it was Like less than Because the other kids were eating Burgers and hot dogs and all the things you could buy.

1:40:17Toaster cheese sandwiches. And then he had this curry sandwich that came in this little box. The smell would obviously... Exactly. But it's interesting how all of that becomes a signifier of your place in society and in the world. It's like, oh... I think we were able to measure, growing up in the township, we were able to measure time of the day. We were able to measure what day of the week it was based on what food there was. Yeah, definitely Sunday had its own Definitely Smell and flavour After work 5-6 Pumpkin Sunday Right? Yeah After work 5-6 You'd be hard pressed To find any house In the township In this cupboard That didn't have a box Of curry Curry powder Yes So there was this famous brand Called Raja There was just Curry powder So the staples In every township home Onion Tomatoes You know this Cabbage On a good day Spinach But potatoes is a must Yeah, potatoes are staple But the elevator was always Just a pinch of that curry powder That box would last the whole month But it just elevated the whole dish And you would know when your mom is home When you were playing in the streets When you could just smell You'd smell it everywhere You'd smell it in the whole neighborhood Right?

1:41:33There was a fragrance that I love that you say that It was almost like a siren's call Oh yeah To come home Home existed It was a dinner bell Yeah Actually this is something I've always wanted to know I'm confused by this So When I was in India I would say curry And then people were like What are you talking about Yeah Not really So they'd go like What do you love And I'd be like Oh I love curry And they'd be like What What do you What are you What are you talking about And then like once I said like Even when I was there I was like naan And the guy said Which naan And then I was like Naan of that Naan naan And he's like And then the One guy said to me That like naan is bread Yes And I was like Yes I want some naan bread And then he said, no, you're saying, and then he, it was so cute the way he said it to me.

1:42:18He's like, he says, Trevor, he says, do you understand right now? You're saying bread, bread. Yes. Then I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you basically came to me and you said, I want bread, bread. And I was like, I don't understand. I love the Indian accent. He's like, cause he said it so like, he's like, yo. As a matter of fact. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Help us understand. Yes. All of us who want to be initiated into this world, help us understand. So what is curry? I never heard of the word until I came to England First time someone told me Do you know how to make curry? I was like, I don't know I've never heard of it It's an English word That the British used That they morphed probably from curry Which is a kind of South Indian kind of sauce Spicy sauce We don't know Every dish has a name Curry is not a name of anything I never heard of it and first time I heard of it was in 1992 I've heard the word curry I never heard of it before and it's really interesting because it's almost like they need to dumb it down to the lowest common denominator by calling it one thing and the fact that they actually think it removes its complexity as well yes also the fact that they think a country the size of India has something called Indian cuisine.

1:43:46Let an Indian try and say there's a European cuisine or that I'm in America, there's an American cuisine, you know, putting the North and South America together. We are not that. But the problem is they take away from us our layering, our identity, our accent, the fabric that we wear, the thing that makes us different by literally making our, by painting us all in one corner in the same shade, it's easier for them to deal with us. Curry is a problematic word. And, you know, I recently did a show where it was Secrets of the Curry Kitchen. And I was like, I don't want the word curry. But they were saying that people will not understand that it's about Indian food.

1:44:32And eventually I gave in. I said, fine, you know, I'd rather people understood. And the first thing I said, the moment the camera comes on, I'm going to say, there is no word like curry. They said, say it. So literally every episode I said, there is nothing called curry. But I'm going to show you how to make korma. I'm going to show you how to make chalfarisi. I'm going to show you how to make things. Okay, so the thing that we are calling, so when we say like, when people are like, I love butter chicken curry and I love vindaloo curry and that's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. Okay. It's like, you know, I like spaghetti pasta and I love, it's a generic word that is added on.

1:45:05It has no meaning at all. there is no dish that doesn't have a name and there are things that you know like in you know random things like you know you will say you know zira aloo zira is cumin aloo aloo is potato so sometimes you might call something by the combination of things that are in there okay okay if you don't have a name because it's it's such an ordinary everyday dish yes uh but no we have names for everything so it's like saying rice and beans in that way you you could say rice and beans because that's what it is two things that are simple yeah yeah so so we do have a lot of that as well we have simple words like you know that we combine because they're they talk about the two main ingredients but i think that this is again to do with the fact that they have not you know i say this to a lot of people i say i will not let you eat my food unless you sit down and understand who I am, my music, my poetry, the rhythm.

1:46:04You cannot take away my fabric, my culture, my music, my architecture, my everything, and then dismiss me. I won't let you have my food then because you cannot appropriate my culture by dumbing down my food and taking the easiest thing for you is to accept my food. You cannot have my food unless you have me. You need to understand. The problem is that so many cultures, I mean, in England and in a lot of other countries as well, this is what they find easiest to take. But are they interested in hearing about your tribe? Are they interested in hearing about your faith? Or our poets or the books that excite us?

1:46:51What is it that we wear in certain festivals? What keeps us up at night? No. They take our food because it's so easy. And they walk away. There is no respect. And where there is no respect on the table, I will not serve. Yeah. I will not. Because I feel like sometimes in our quest to be accepted, we become party to our own exclusion. Hmm. Yeah. You know? Yes. And I think that it's hard because when you're bread and butter and 41 families that I work with my team, are dependent on our success. I have to be careful, but I take it to the very edge of where I can be. Right. And I know everything I'm saying now, people will listen, you're hugely popular, and I'm very grateful to be here speaking with you all because it allows me to reach out to an audience in my Muslim name, in my accented voice, the fact that I tell the story of women and our food.

1:47:52people should come and watch an open kitchen. There's no anger. No one is screaming and shouting. It's not the thing that we see in TV all the time. No, no, no. And the problem is that television is worshipping. And all these crazy manic men who are not being able to deal with the pressure in the kitchen, I can send them to an ashram in India, in the Himalayas. If you can't deal with pressure, go away. Do not traumatize young people Because we are losing Yeah, you're not wrong We are losing so many people Young men and women Who leave hospitality Because some crazy person Cannot deal with the pressure Why are they Do you ever hear Of a CEO of a company Going around slapping their secretary Or someone else in there On the board No And who are these chefs Powerful people Picking on Their playground bullies Yeah Tell them to go slap the owner Or the head sommelier or this investors or the landlord no no who do they burn with hot spoons who do they bite I've seen bite marks on women wow who've been bitten by and the way that they slapped you know and our skin is dark you really need to hate hard for us to show bruise yeah how are they being allowed in no other profession and I'm I'm saying this not because I'm just I'm a lawyer but in no other profession in no other space with this level of assault, physical, sexual be allowed, as allowed in the kitchen, if it was outside the kitchen, they would be in jail.

1:49:25In full display. But we are allowing this because we allow the excuse that this is pressure. It's even glorified. It is glorified. This is seen like there are these tormented people. And I feel that it's almost as if the men who cook today do not want to be reminded of the women who cook for them. Because like in England, I don't know what it's like But like school meals were served by older women. Yeah. Lunch ladies. Yeah, lunch ladies. Exactly. Your memories are your grandmother, your mother, lunch ladies. Yeah. Now that you're an artist, you will become this macho kind of crazy man who is so, you know, radiate testosterone because you've made cooking into a combat sport.

1:50:10Yeah. So that it is so far away from the spiritual rhythm of the spices as they're crushed in our homeland. I even think the instrument that is used to symbolize cooking, the knife, so combative. You're right. I think it's a man that says, why not the spoon or the ladle? Yeah. Come to my kitchen, you'll see that the only knife we have is a very small tomato knife. Because every household had one sharp knife. And in my kitchen, we have one sharp knife. And it moves between people. We all had one sharp knife. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. There's one sharp knife in everyone's house in the township. Yeah.

1:50:54And in my kitchen, I have one sharp knife. I don't have fancy knives. I got very excited. I went and bought some Japanese knives. We had to take women to A &E after that because they'd cut their fingers. because we're used to bloody working with blunt knives. But the whole thing is that why has it become so competitive? Why has it become about aggression and show and that you are taking this ingredient and you are imposing yourself on it? Can I tell you why I think? I think it goes back to something that you said literally at the beginning of this conversation. it is because if you make it seem like it is combative and if you make it feel like it is pained and if you make it just like look like the the most gritty and difficult task then people are more likely to appreciate it whereas the women who as you said when we first started they make it look effortless they make it seem as if it didn't take their time as if the planning wasn't meticulous they make it feel as if it was a foregone conclusion you're less likely to appreciate it and so funny enough even just if i'm just guessing in a way when asma khan or any other woman our grandmothers whoever they were when they would cook and it would just be when i think of like my gran and how much food she would cook every single sunday for everyone in the family We all had that story There's not one One time where I can remember her Like barking like Gordon Ramsay Like screaming at people Get me my bloody Where's my spinach you little shit But the amount of food that was cooked for people And the quality and the consistency of that food Do you get what I'm saying?

1:52:45We're not talking about burnt bottoms We're not talking about undercooked anything But I'm Using only four plates Yo And the stove itself There was nothing fancy See, there was no, you know what I mean, a cold stove. But if you think about it, beyond like her family and beyond that world, the appreciation isn't known. Everyone will go like, oh, yeah, I'm grandmother. But grandmothers know how to cook. Do you get what I'm saying? But when you punch walls and slap people and scream and come and wipe a plate with your serve, you know what I mean, and turn the plate. You know they love doing that thing.

1:53:19You turn the plate. Turn the plate. Then it makes it feel like, I mean, this effort. Have you eaten there? Have you? Oh, we're lucky that we got in. It's so hard to prepare that one carrot in the middle of the plate. Even the word gastronomy. I mean, I actually think that's a lot of what it is. This is so true, what you're saying. And then the added insult is that often I hear chefs being interviewed and they say, who's the best chef? And they say, my mom or my grandmom. Show me a mom and grandmom who's in your kitchen. Damn. They are not there. There's also ageism. And if you told me now to go chase a deer in a forest, deer will have gone to another continent by the time I even go near it.

1:54:06But you asked me to cook with very few ingredients. And this is the simplicity of a thing. I will cook you a meal you will never forget. But the problem is that the world will judge me, will look at my body shape, will look at my age, will look at my gray hair and decide she's not creative, she's not dynamic, she's not this muscular, tattooed, pierced monster who's screaming. When was that ever something that was required to make a beautiful meal? Our grandmothers, my grandmothers, slight and small, and you come into my kitchen, you'll see you know we've got women who are not even five feet they're small they're bright they're full of spark they love and they love to cook and there's a joy and they smile but i i feel so sad because we have and also i must blame the media as well oh definitely the media television you know all kinds of media worship this kind of irrational erratic unkind behavior.

1:55:13And the thing is that what bothers me is the physical sexual abuse that's happening. And we are allowing this to happen. It's shameful because it's, I am ashamed of hospitality. I'm ashamed of our industry that we have not stood up for our women. It's not just women. It is men too. It is the empathetic men, men who are of different sexuality. The way that young, Because often in England, you'll find young kids who are struggling in school be sent off to vocational training. They often learn cooking because it doesn't require you to read and write too much. They come in at 16. Then they're called the most aggressive things.

1:55:54They're reminded about all the struggles that they had. How are you powerful when you cannot embrace the weak, when you cannot actually show them hope? For me, a leader is someone who tells someone who's gone in, afraid and broken, who has been bullied in school and comes in, boy or a girl, it doesn't matter. You take them into this world, your secret world of cooking, and you show them how spice works and use the food to speak to them about hope and love. Our industry is all about pushing each other down and this kind of very fake service where service and hospitality is all about impressing people, making them feel good.

1:56:48But when there are tears behind the wall in your kitchen, who are you actually looking after? You don't look after your own. So then if the guest leaves and thinks that this is great, give you a five-star review, Michelin gives you a star, Michelin might give you three stars. What is that star worth when you have broken the soul of someone in your kitchen and we are allowing this every day and we have not been able to protect our own. I often think, to the point you're making about the media, I often think it's quite an indictment that, and I'll use Hollywood as a shortcut for it because it's just one of the media spaces that has informed how we live, that Hollywood has been really lazy at finding ways to glamorize things that seem as if they contain no glamor.

1:57:44And what I mean is this is like, if you think about how many industries Hollywood has taught us about and how they've shaped how people see them. You can't help but think that it now becomes a case of like the tail wagging the dog. I'm yet to meet a policeman who didn't see police in a movie or on TV and think that that's what policing is. Simple example, we all at some point in our lives watched a TV show where there were police, where the one cop wanted the law to be done so badly that they slammed someone's head on a table or they smashed them against the wall. And the story tells us that they are the good person because they're willing to break the law to save the law.

1:58:31And you're just like, wait, no, but if you, what are you doing? But the way it's portrayed to us, like, that's the way you do it. At some point, it's like, you know, turn off the cameras. I'll get this guy to talk. And we at home like, yeah, turn off the cameras. Screw their civil liberties. Get them to talk, you know? And then they do the same thing with like the military. They go like, this is how you do it. You go to that country and those people are savages and you shoot them all. And we're like, yeah, shoot them all. We do this with everything. There's no just war. The same thing that we do with the cooking or with the chefs is like, it's these stories of like, the only way you can make this food is if you're pained, if you're struggling, even artists.

1:59:08It's interesting how we forget that the image that we give out that inspires people to become this thing becomes how they define who they're going to be in it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So when I was approached by Chef's Table, I was so shocked because till then I was like, you know, oh, these are like the world's best chefs and they're like, you know, serious artists, you know, with gold leaf and caviar. And then when I realized that this is not a hoax, first I thought it was a hoax and then I realized it's real. I told them don't script me please don't script me I'm not scripted at all I told the story of my people I spoke about my mother crying when I was born as a second daughter the lamenting on my birth I spoke about inequality and justice and I was so happy they just sat there let me say it I didn't need to tell them that my food is this exquisite and I do this and I'm so tormented and I have all these things.

2:00:11I didn't need to. I cooked biryani and I opened the biryani and I fed people and that's what it is. But I think that the problem is that, you know, when media is looking for those kind of, it's like, you know, self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, you're this, you're that. And there's so many of us, you know, I'm not just the only one. There are many people who have really interesting stories who understand justice, but where are they? No one is telling their story. they don't get the opportunity to talk about what makes them special and their food special and then you have we are flooded by all these crazy wacko men who are going on beating people and we all think they're great because they're abusive and it really worries me because the problem is and i don't want to be hypocritical i'll tell you one thing i don't have a daughter if my daughter wanted to work in a commercial kitchen i wouldn't let her go wow because of what you know.

2:01:07Yeah. I would be awake and I would check her all the time to see, has she got injuries? Is she being bruised? Is she being bullied? It's funny you say that. Throughout our conversation, I was looking at your arms and you have no scars, you have no burn marks. Because I know this female chef who had like scars and burn marks all over her hands, all the way up to her elbow. And she said, that's the only way you get respect in these commercial kitchens is if you have these marks and these cuts on your finger. It means you've done the time and you've put in the time and you've done the work. And our grandmothers didn't have that.

2:01:40You don't have that. Yeah. I mean, if one of our grandmothers burned themselves, all the other aunties would say, how could you do it? You'd be looked down upon for getting burnt. You know, that's a sign of incompetence. You are so right. And the whole point is that the whole culture in the kitchen is so violent. It is so horrible. And I actually took on Michelin. There was proved allegation. It has to be approved allegation. Again, I'm a lawyer backing myself up. Yeah, the lawyer. I'm backing myself up. Improved allegation where abuse happened in a kitchen which has a Michelin star. I asked the Michelin, take the star off.

2:02:16They didn't apply to me for a long time. I kept asking them. Then they got back to me with some kind of answer saying, oh, that's not what we do. But you do. You recognize and you give a kind of accolade to that kitchen and that chef. But they have been brutal. they have been proved to have abused someone in the kitchen. Why can you not take off the star? But they will not. And the problem is that when the entire industry is based on this, that no, we will not speak up. We will keep silent because I've never wanted to be, I am on the fringe of this all male Mayfair club, mostly white people who are in this exclusive club like you have them in Britain, where women come in.

2:03:07I mean, now, of course, the law has changed because the law says women are members as well. But in hospitality, women are just guests who you sign in. You know, the clubs that we have. You sign a woman and you bring her in. Someone has to vouch for you. Someone has to vouch for you. And if you now look at all the successful women, I've always said this, whenever there have been proved allegations of abuse in a kitchen, not a single Michelin star female chef has spoken up. If you Google and you will see, it's just me. The voucher stops there. It's just me. I've read full page articles about allegations, including some very prominent male chefs who said, you know, we don't want to hire women because when they get pregnant, they cannot pick up pots.

2:03:49I was like, wow. To say this, and every female chef who is seen as a leader of this industry, who has a Michelin star, The silence is deafening. Why are you silent? And this is our problem. And I have said it repeatedly. And not even once has any of these women approached me privately saying that, you know, I also agree with you. But because, you know, these are my friends, I don't want to say. They haven't even approached me personally. That's how broken we are. That women see themselves as chefs first and women, fine, you can see yourself as, you know. queen of, you know, whatever. You can imagine yourself to be whatever you want.

2:04:34But I also see you as a female. I see you as a female leader. There's a woman in your team who might be getting bullied. Your silence tells her, shh, keep quiet. Because to progress, you stay silent. You follow, conform to the system. You become an accomplice. I could not breathe. I could not live. If I had to stay silent and allow abuse in front of me for my success, my success would hurt me more than anything else. And I don't understand. I guess it's a personality thing, but I do not understand how they are still silent. Nobody else is speaking up. I am one of the only females who's speaking up in the industry.

2:05:19And very, you know, not so long ago, a male chef was asked this in a press conference publicly that you know what do you think of someone like Asma who says you know that male gentleman he said tell her to come into a real kitchen and work with men tell her to come he said this when I challenged him he said it was his as English is not his first language I was like English Frenchman I was like I was saying English is also not my first language but I would not say something like that it's not about English wow Wow, what a cop-out. Yes. Eugene, I challenge you to come work in a real kitchen. What's that, Trevor?

2:06:01And me, no, no. You see, you see. No, Eugene. It is a language. Don't speak. My first language is a coward. That's true. But despite how tough it is, I am so optimistic. Maybe she's not born yet, but the legacy I'm leaving and that girl that's not born yet, she will know my name. I will be dead and I will be dust. She will know there was someone like me who created a space that was free for women. And I want her to know. I want her to know my name. I want her to know that I walk in thorns and I go through fire. because one day she will be free and she will be without fear. And that is what excites me that I will be able to push back and clear the pathway and through just the water that I see myself, that I'll leave everything moistened and fresh and the harvest will grow and there will be women and men who will be free of fear.

2:07:23And I believe this will happen. I may not see it. You will see it. But I feel that there will be a day when there is no fear in the kitchen. And this is what drives me. And I feel everything in my life has led me to this place where I fight for those who I will never see. And I speak for those who I don't know. But what a privilege it is. And what an honor to be able to do this. This excites me more than everything else because all my friends who were in law school with me, who were really bad, are super rich now, have fancy cars, live in St. John's Wood and all of this. And I think, I might want to be poor my whole life and I think I will be.

2:08:13But I know that legacy is more important than everything else. If you are a CEO or a CFO of a company, Your name is on a door with the title. But when you die, all your things are put in a box and given away after a respectable gap. Someone else's name is put there. What is your legacy? I know one thing, that when I die, I will live on forever. Because I did something for women in industry, in kitchens, that no one else has done so far. and I asked my father that, you know, when I die, do not bury me inside the fortress and the palace. Bury me on the street so that everyone can walk past and I want them to ask, who is she?

2:09:01I want the world to know this story because I want them to know that you could succeed. You could be kind, you could be graceful, you could be, you know, caring about the community and I'm very successful. I want people to know you can be successful without being scared. No, that's why you're here. And that's, I mean, when I told the team, when I was like, we really got to get Asma on, they were like, some people were like, who's Asma? Some people were like, oh, from Chef's Table. I was like, no, no, no. Forget all the things you know. You just have to meet this person. And so I'm glad, I'm glad you came and joined us today.

2:09:37This was amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Now, I mean, we have to go and eat the food now. Yes. I don't think I've ever been this hungry. You have to come. And women cooking Magical You've got to come No I mean that we know That you can't even like Yeah But just like Now Nglambi Nglambi Nglambi Ndolta My stove Apparently Eugene Download the app Eugene Download that app Eugene Let's get going Asma Khan Thank you so much You're very good Thank you so much This was lovely Thank you very much

2:10:16Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackl. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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