Bertie Gregory: Saving the Animals (Even the Ones That Are A**holes)

29:12So if the water, you can only see 20 meters, well, you're not doing any hiding. Like the animal's going to know that you're there. So you need to figure out, okay, how do I behave so that the animal is relaxed with me? I mean, one of my favorite animals to film is the leopard seal. They're these, I mean, they look like dragons and they live in Antarctica and they can be absolutely enormous and they have a very similar skull to a grizzly bear. So they're just this amazing top predator. Well, not top predator, So a killer whale can eat them because killer whales are - Because killer whales kill.

29:42Yeah, they're badasses. We got this. So, yeah, so with them, I mentioned that all animals have personalities and they have different days. It's sort of like a lucky dip when you get in the water with a leopard seal. You see this leopard seal and you're like, okay, I'm going to get in. And very quickly, I'm going to learn whether this is a leopard seal that is friendly, is not pleased to see me. You just never know. And you learn very quickly. and sometimes you get out immediately because you're like, okay, that one didn't like me here. And some start very shy. And then in the space of an hour, you can sort of kind of flirt with them and get like sort of pretend you're not interested in them.

30:22Sort of they know where you're looking. So you kind of turn away, face your back and they come sneak up on you and then you go boo. And it's amazing that you can have this interaction with an animal that may never have seen a human being before, but you can read its body language and even cooler, it can read yours. You're not just a weird alien human. It's like, oh no, it knows where you're looking. It knows whether you're, they often mirror your state. So it's really important that you're really chill. So they're really chill. If you get in the, I've been in the water, taking other people down there that have, you know, never seen a leopard seal before.

30:58And I take them in the water and they're really on edge And I hate it Because the leopard seal is really on edge Oh wow And then that person You get them out of the water And it's just me and the leopard seal Suddenly leopard seal is a different animal It's like oh yeah Sketchy Steve is out of the water now Sketchy Steve We're cool You can't trust Sketchy Steve So yeah I think I've always I've been a Sketchy Steve Yeah you've been I've been a Sketchy I'm still a Sketchy Steve Thank you No because you know I can't I can't Just find myself So I'm always stuck in the loop people would be like just relax then I'm like I would be relaxed if there wasn't this wild animal here then they're like yes but you relax and then the thing is I then remember videos I've seen of people who were too relaxed and didn't notice a shift in something and then all of a sudden life is not going well for them do you know what I mean?

31:47yeah yeah so I don't know like are you comfortable around animals like fully? party animals a bit sketchy never trust a party animal never trust a party animal but i've always been i love animals but from a distance but i've always been fascinated by animals um that that come close to resembling human beings so gorillas chimpanzees and i've often wondered because i've once seen this video of chimpanzees hunting monkeys that for me was the scariest thing ever i've never have you ever had an experience like that i've never seen that yeah there's a very famous troop um uh yeah it's the i think it's called the Ngogo troop.

32:31And yeah, there's, I'm not sure how big it is now, but at a time it was this enormous troop of chimpanzees. There was like 50 or 60 chimps living together. And yeah, they'd go and set very clever traps to eat colobus monkeys. Wait, wait, what? See, those are assholes. Surely they're assholes. Well, I mean, why does eating monkeys make, why does that make them? Okay, why are all the other monkeys not doing this? Why are all the other chimpanzees not doing it is my question rather. Well, so it's really interesting because they don't do it all the time. It's sort of, okay, yes, it's a very rich source of protein that they do.

33:07But most of the time they're eating fruits and things. And I think it's actually, it's a huge sort of, it's almost a ceremonial thing for them. Like they get so amped and excited. It's a troop bonding exercise. It's not just we're going to go out and get some food. Designated roles. There's some who go and chase, shake down the tree and some who wait for the monkey to fall down. then also when the monkey falls down and gets killed there's also pieces that get divvied up and who gets the meat first who gets what first it's you know they're giving out favors for dominant hierarchy why you're like that when we go out to like restaurants and stuff are you part of the ngongo then you're like when Eugene will be like Trevor you shake the table and then Ryan's gonna order and then someone's at the trap I'm gonna eat the first piece we gotta I've always wondered where you got that from okay okay don't go anywhere because we got more What Now?

33:56After this.

34:25Only V is October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17 on a middle without parent. If your child lives with type 1 diabetes, a low blood sugar is hard enough without trying to convince them to eat another chalky glucose tablet. That's where Glow Gummies come in. Delicious glucose gummies made with fast-acting dextrose to raise blood sugar quickly. In a soft gummy they'll actually want to eat. They're vegan, gluten-free, dye-free, don't melt or stick to teeth, and taste just as good as candy. Head to glowgummies.com, that's G-L-O-W gummies.com, and use code PODCAST20 for 20 % off. It's okay to brag every now and then, especially when it's over savings on designer picks from Ashley.

35:05Sleep deeper with a great deal on the five-piece contemporary Christyland bedroom set. And when your dinner guests complement your Corestone Round dining set, don't be afraid to tell them you saved big and that it comes with convenient storage options. With savings you can be proud of, why not boast a little? Visit Ashley.com to shop designer deals for your home.

35:32Do you ever find, like, human world just becomes, like, bleh because of the world you live in? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I have what I describe as post-shoot blues. Yeah. so i i come home from you know antarctica or whatever and i always it it's usually the first couple days when i'm sort of readjusting to a different a different world well i mean for me what i struggle with is my normal life is expeditions and being far away um and so yeah i'll be like stood in a in a supermarket deciding what kind of salad i want to buy and i'm looking around being like what about penguins and icebergs can can i just go back to doing that it just seems so sort of insignificant uh in comparison to the in comparison like this whole world and the significance and there's these dramas going on um so yeah it's it's it's really tricky to make that adjustment what's what's the what's the worst experience you had like you know when you're on a shoot you're trying to do something things did not go according to plan an animal or like was there ever a moment like that i'm sure in all the years because how long have you been doing it now uh just over 10 years yeah so i mean surely in that time something has happened to you where you've gone well the most dangerous animal on every single shoot is humans boo yeah every single time the you know the times that i have been you know in danger is because of a human that it's either directly from that human or the human has misinterpreted some animal body language and and has put us in a in a dangerous situation like you've been attacked by humans on a shoot somewhere uh that that that has yeah that has that has happened damn yeah yeah that was quite scary What happened?

37:28We were in the Arctic and we were in a very remote camp. And one of the people we were working with, we didn't realize, was a drug addict. And not really sure what he was addicted to, but we were basically, because of a storm, our supply boat was cut off. So every few days we were meant to be getting supplies with food and fuel and all kinds of things. What we didn't realize is that that boat was also delivering his drugs. And while he was on the drugs He was actually pretty functional And he didn't get those drugs And started to Yeah go Damn that's scary This is in the Antarctic It was in the Arctic In the Arctic Yeah So you're like There's nowhere to go There's no No This seems like You know those movies This seems like a Perfect thriller Horror movie scenario Where you'd be like It's unrealistic Explorers The movie starts They often see the animals you know the whole thing and then they're exploring they're exploring the animals and then they're like oh there's a storm there's a storm we're hunkered down oh the boats are not coming in Bertie the boats are not we'll be fighting our supplies running low and then all of a sudden someone's just like ah yeah and it yeah and it started out sort of oh that was a weird thing that he just said and then it it kind of escalated and he started making threats uh and then he he's he snapped and and jumped on um yeah one of our team and yeah i was trying to uh strangle her and um yeah another one of the team managed to get her off and i get him off and uh we were in polar bear country so we were you know we carry shotguns so there's just a lot of you know i remember at one point looking at this situation with yeah him trying to get to her and at my feet there was a a shotgun for the polar bears and a paddle for a stand-up paddleboard and I was like okay what am I going to pick here um and uh then I was like I'm just going to use my words uh and yeah it all got very very scary um and I ended up well we we ended up managing to distract him, get her away.

39:45I won't name her, get her away and sort of separate the two of them. And then my job was basically to distract him long enough for the rest of the team to make a plan to get, find a way to get evacuated from this remote place. So I, the reason we were out and away from the camp was we were trying to collect fresh water. So we need to go up the river. So I, yeah, we basically both went up this river into the - Just the two of you. We were with another guy as well. And yeah, we were distracting him and sort of, yeah, trying to keep him occupied. And he would, what was most scary about this was he would flip-flop between being this crazy, really scary person and then being absolutely lovely with not really any recollection of what had happened.

40:35It was sort of Jekyll and Hyde. and um i remember we'd filled up the water jugs you know i'd managed to stall him for about an hour and i was on the stand-up paddleboard that we were using to to transport the water jugs and he was walking on the the riverbank next to me and i was paddling along just like yeah trying to keep him calm and i remember he suddenly got really on edge and was rummaging around in his pockets and i was like oh god what's he got in his pocket is it a you know a gun a knife like what is it he looked really on edge all of a sudden he pulls out his phone and he's like oh i just set up a tiktok account i'm gonna take a video of you on the stand-up paddleboard and for my tiktok is that okay i was like this is a very strange situation to be in sketchy steve um yeah sketchy steve and uh by the time we got back to camp um yeah the rest of the team had managed to make a plan that there was a research plane in the area and they were able to actually land on the the beach that we were on um and yeah we we got our our team out and we actually made the decision to take the the guy with us because at the point that the plane arrived he was in the good mood so it was And we were like, we don't want to leave him here.

41:53Damn. Did you guys want the pilot at least? Because this is really like a movie. No, no. Because now on the plane, it's like, oh, man. Next thing you know, it's Bane. Yeah. And then, yeah. So we sort of chatted to him and then we got him, yeah, going back to the town and, yeah, and then went our separate ways. When you tell a story like that, it makes me wonder, like, how did we, you know, because you work in this world now, How did we get to the place where, I think I'm safe in saying that more people in the world are terrified by animals than by like people. 100%. Do you know what I'm saying?

42:30Whereas I am completely opposite. Yeah, but how did we get there? Like, where do these myths come from? Where do they, I mean, clearly we spoke about one earlier where I was talking about like the killer whales and you're like, oh, they're attacking the boat. And everyone thinks this. I think a lot of people think this. And then you're like, no, one area. Well, classic example is human fear of wolves. Okay. So, you know, there's lots of movies, Hollywood movies about wolves eating people and all this stuff. But okay, in North America, how often do you think someone gets killed by a wolf? Maybe once a year.

43:08One time a year. Yeah. I'm going to say - So sharks is between five and 10 a year globally. Then I'm going to say - So with wolves, what do you think? Wolves, I'm going to say, attacked 20 times a year. Actually, fatal attack. Fatal attacks? Oh, no, no, no. Fatal attacks, I'm going to say seven. Per year? Yeah, seven. Eugene? I'll say one. Wow. Yeah, one attack a year. What if I told you that in recent history, so in the last few hundred years, that number's actually more like two total? What do you mean? In how many years? Not average. No, no, no, no, no. total since no come on Bertie come on now you're telling me we've made all these movies about a thing that happened two times and in both those times if you actually read about them it is not conclusive that the wolf actually did it ah ah ah so then you ask the question okay why well who done it yeah but what why do we have why does our society have this incredible hatred you know little red riding hood the big bad wolf why why is a child that we taught the wolves are so dangerous when at the same time we keep their closest living relative in our homes so i have a theory for this okay but i don't know if it's right or it's wrong when i when i read through like old historical accounts of like explorers and travelers people who are going around the world hunting one of the things i've learned is whether they were colonizers or whether they were just like hunters one of the most powerful tools they used to justify what they were doing was turning the subject of their action into like a dangerous villain.

44:50Yeah. You get what I'm saying? And so it's a lot easier, I think, to have people not judge you for killing wolves and you know what I mean, taking their furs if you tell them that you're protecting them. You have hit the nail on the head. Yeah. That is exactly why our society has this hatred towards wolves because, you know, livestock farming is a huge part of our society and wolves do sometimes kill livestock. And it is much easier to justify the killing of a wolf if everyone hates them. Okay. Just like, you know, with sharks, it's only very recently that everyone's sort of waking up to the fact that sharks might actually be really important to healthy oceans and we need healthy oceans.

45:40Yeah. But prior to that, with Jaws and our fear of sharks, no one really cares that sharks were getting killed. So why would you want to protect something that you're terrified of? What do you think people don't get about conservation? Because you've said it a few times, it's like not just because they're cute, not just because they're nice. Like when I was growing up, that's all I watched in most nature documentaries. It was sold as like this idea of like, they won't be here anymore. That's why we need to protect them Because they won't be here anymore And then it almost seemed like it's the novelty That justifies us Protecting an animal It's the right thing to do It's the right thing to do This is a cute animal that you'll never get to see That's why you need to protect it Which I think is a bad argument Tell me more So nature provides So many things that we need From clean water, productive soils, the air we breathe, regulating our climate.

46:45We're part of this incredible life support system that's free and it provides us with all these ecosystem services that we completely take for granted. So selfishly, we should want to look after the natural world because it's to protect ourselves. you know if we can if we can look after the environment and make sure that wild systems are healthy we make them more resilient they they can then better protect us from you know the effects of climate change or or you know whatever the thing may be even like disease is what i've learned on some of these things okay look at all of the the big sort of pandemics yeah that have happened, most of them come from the mistreatment of domestic animals or wild animals, or it's us being very naughty.

47:38And unsurprisingly, bad things happen when you're naughty. Because I love nature documentaries, I often wonder to myself, aren't we getting in the way of evolution? Because sometimes you have those series where they show you the prehistoric relative of a certain creature. But because conditions changed, humans interfered, they invaded certain spaces the animals evolved to something else aren't we right now standing in the way of evolution of certain creatures because we just want to conserve the way they look now for our own selfish reasons because we just like what this bird looks like now but the dodo bird you know was something else and it became something else and it became something else because life and the climate and the conditions around it changed yeah it's an interesting perspective i guess what i would say is that evolution happens on very slow timescales.

48:24And what is different about what we are doing now, we are in, you know, in history, there have been these mass extinction events and we're now in one. When the rate of extinction goes up incredibly high, there's sort of this big purge. And I think with humans, we often talk about wanting to save the world when actually in the long-term, world the planet world is fine it's gonna be just fine it's just whether or not we yeah exist or whether we exist on a place that's actually you know nice to be we're not just sort of surviving i think that's where the groups that do these things have done really well they have sort of participated in making us think of it as save the world which then arrogantly puts us at the center of it again in the wrong way you know it's like like oh do you want to save the world and it's like all right world if you need me i'll save you and it's like no no no no no no my friend no yes do you want to be alive do you get what i'm saying do you want to be able to go outside and not have a summer that is literally unlivable do you want to be able to grow food do you not want an animal to come hunt your dog because like that's the thing i think is so amazing when you watch these documentaries and you go oh you know why this animal is here like hunting your dog or like catching your cat or it's because where it was supposed to be there's no more animals there's no more prey do you get what i'm saying like polar bears i've seen are like coming further and further down as the as the the ice melts right they're just like coming more into like brown land territory i think well i mean uh yes they're spending more time you know many polar bears spend the, you know, part of the year on the sea ice on the ocean's frozen.

50:14And then in the summertime, when the ice melts, they spend the time on land sort of hanging out. And if they haven't managed to get enough calories during that important time when they're on the ice, they need to go looking for stuff. And so, yes, they will come into contact with, you know, humans, you know, they live in a very sort of inert, smellless environment. And then you have a human settlement suddenly that's like, ooh, opportunity. And they'll come into that. So, So yeah, when we mess with wild systems, that's when you get more human wildlife conflict. But I think kind of sort of taking one step back, you talk about saving the world and that idea.

50:51I think one of the biggest communication failures in history is that we've been led to believe that climate change is about, it was just about temperature and carbon emissions. These kind of abstract terms, right? So I can say, oh, 400 parts per million or it's going to go by three degrees. He's like, okay, I sort of get it. But that's basically, if you ask someone on the street that isn't a climate scientist, what's climate change about? They're going to tell you probably about carbon dioxide and temperature. But they're not actually the problems. They are proxies for what the actual problem is, is that those two things, when they go up, lead to the destruction of nature.

51:43So I feel like rather than talking about climate change and how we need to fight that, we should just be talking about the destruction of nature. Yeah. Because I feel like everyone can get on board with the fact that if you cut down a really big old tree, that is a bad thing. And so if you also approach it in terms of the giant climate change and it's such a massive problem and requires so much global cooperation in our broken, divided world, it's very easy to just throw your hands up and go, well nothing we can do what am I meant what am I meant to do as an individual whereas if you talk about the destruction of nature suddenly you as an individual whether you're the CEO of a huge company or a politician or just someone with a little apartment down the road from here you can do you know okay they're on different scales but you can do your bit to make the planet wilder and healthier whether that be you know plants in your garden that are insect pollinator friendly to help local bees or or you know choose to protect a huge area of ocean if you're a politician.

52:47And the thing I love about that is that it's actionable and you will see quantifiable positive change. If you plant a bunch of wildflowers in your garden, you will see a bunch of insects coming to those that weren't there before. And isn't that cool? The fact that everyone can have an impact even on the tiniest level. Exactly. We talked about those CEOs. They're interested in ROIs. Well, there you go do a thing gets better yeah that's the problem with with um you know yes of course we need to look at our individual uh carbon footprints or or you know uh changing our diets to to you know uh consume uh less or no meat or you know all these things you can do it's very hard to quantify the impact of those those things you know if you choose not to fly tomorrow well the the you know the global temperature isn't going to come down because of your one action you should still think about doing it whereas when it comes to rewilding the planet like you will see a quantifiable positive change and it you know people don't like being told to stop doing things yeah oh that's true but what about if you do a thing and then it makes a better you know you know what i mean i just think it's a much more positive proactive it is actually it is a proactive but here's where i'm often conflicted when it comes to conservationalists and nature documentary makers is for example you'd go to the ngorongoro crater shoot a bunch of animals right put that out on television people all of a sudden are interested in going and seeing these animals now all of a sudden there's 50 000 land rovers there disturbing the exact same thing that you try to do yeah yeah it's a great point so i'm really glad glad you point this up brings up so in yeah my new show on disney plus cheetahs up close we filmed cheetahs in the serengeti and because cheetahs are going to be extinct right cheetahs are they're pretty much gone not doing well yeah so there's you know there's there's less cheetahs in the wild than there are lions uh less cheetahs in the wild than there are rhinos you know that it's it's not good yeah um but for some reason i think maybe because they're really really fast everyone thinks they're okay Yeah.

54:57Metabolism. Slim weight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would gain you a lot of enemies because they're fast, they're okay. And, you know, David Attenborough said, summarized it really well, that we're loving these animals to death because where they are, you know, people want to go see cheetahs and, you know, in places where tourism is badly managed, they get surrounded by vehicles. They can't sneak up on their prey. They can't see bigger predators coming for them and their cubs, the hyenas, the lions, which is actually the biggest challenge that cheetahs face. And so what I would say to that is... And wildlife tourism is an amazing thing if managed correctly because it gives a value to those animals alive.

55:47If you look at it in many places where, well, as an example, I did a show that came out on Disney Plus a few months ago called Dolphins Up Close in the Azores Islands, which are a group of islands off Portugal. Exactly, in the Atlantic. And yeah, that community used to thrive on whaling. That was their big industry. And interviewed this amazing whaler called Daniel. He'd spent his life whaling and spotting whales. And yeah, him and the community realized actually people wanted to go see these whales and they are worth more alive than dead. And so he now - So it's more sustainable. Well, he's now spots the whales.

56:34and instead of calling a whaling boat onto them to harpoon them, he calls in a boat full of tourists to go in and take pictures. Now, of course, there is the potential for that boat to be disturbing, but if managed correctly, it's a much better thing. Because I feel like in an ideal world, okay, maybe you could say that, well, we should protect these places and then leave them alone and keep all the people out. But conservation is as much about the animals as it is about the humans that live in that place. And those animals, sadly, in our capitalist world, have to have an economic value to incentivize protecting them.

57:13So, of course, there's the intrinsic value of looking after these animals. They're cute. They're wonderful. It's the right thing to do. But we need the extrinsic value, which is the economic one, to make it ironically sustainable in the long term. It's the paradox of everything these days. If you don't have an economic, like have you seen how if they try like a program, let's say in Scandinavia, I saw they were piloting a four-day work week and whatever. People in the US were like, we'll never do that. Many places are like, this is stupid. And then someone wrote a paper about the economic benefits of it.

57:50And then all of a sudden companies were like, yeah, we're going to try this. We're going to try it. They're like, oh, you'll actually get more. As soon as there's a financial incentive. But look, that is the world we live in now. You have to show the economic something. Traffic doesn't get dealt with until somebody shows a politician how much a city is losing because of that traffic. But you can get very sad and cynical about it, but actually it's like, well, let's just play the game by their rules. Yeah, exactly. And then we can all agree. Yeah, you just go like, for every cheetah that dies, this is how much money you're losing in tourism.

58:21This is how much money you will lose in, this is how much money you will lose. You know what I mean? It's really interesting if you find the right incentive. Totally. When we were there with the cheetahs, you know, the reason that that national park exists and isn't just a giant cow farm or cow pasture is because of the money being brought in from each of the tourists that goes there. Now, we saw that in some places it is badly managed. So and actually a study came out that showed that cheetah cub survival was much lower in places that had a lot of tourism. Yeah. Oh, wow. Badly managed tourism.

58:59So this isn't just like, oh, I feel like this is a bad thing when that Cheetah family gets surrounded by cars. No, it's been proven. So therefore, it's really important that we do it correctly. And so that is, it's on the guide, but I think also it's on us as people that go there and are guests in these places to ask questions because the guides are under huge amounts of pressure there. You know, safaris for various reasons have traditionally been incredibly expensive and so very exclusive. Whereas now, you know, mass tourism, cheaper tourism is becoming possible. And it means that, you know, just to make the economics of the trip work, if you're selling it for cheap, people will go on safari not for a week.

59:47They will go for one day. Now, the guide, he will get a really big tip if he manages to find all five of the best animals, right? So he's just got to rip around. And for some reason, now that we all have a phone and not, you know, rather than bringing a normal camera, we now expect to get really close to everything to get a good picture of it. So we saw, we would follow these cheaters from a distance. and then over the radio, you know, we were a filming car and they knew what we were doing so they always knew, ah, filming car. They're good at finding the cheetahs. We had the, we had these amazing guides that would, you know, find stuff.

1:00:28All the vehicles would come to us and we've created this horrible problem where now this cheetah family is surrounded by cars very close. And the cops can't hear their mom's call. All that stuff. So we'd watch and people would be, they'd drive, rather than sitting, you know, 100 meters away, 50 meters away, like we would with our really powerful technology. They would drive all the way up. They would drive all the way up. And so that the guide got a tip that they want to be in a good position, they'd lean out and take a picture on the phone of the cheetah right there. And so actually, yes, you could blame that on the guide.

1:00:57Okay, it's his, you know, he needs to sort of - He needs family. Well, yeah, but he needs to educate the tourists on, you know, da, da, da. But actually, I think it's equally as much our responsibility to go, hang on. I blame the phone companies. Why aren't they making better cameras that can zoom in more? Make longer zooms, yeah. We make more wildlife zooms so that people can zoom in. We need longer telephoto lenses. So get on it, phone companies. It's amazing how they phone. You know what we should also do? No, you joke, but it's a good point. You know what we should also do is you should start making like, I don't know how we'll do this ethically.

1:01:29We'll figure it out. We make like scam nature documentaries where you just tell people there's animals, but there's nothing there. And you just go like, oh, welcome to the jungles of Long Island where we found. and then you just just diffuse people you know what I mean oh right some people are gonna get bamboozled you don't have to put those out because Disney won't buy those but just put them out online and it can just be like spread the humans out yeah yeah yeah you know what I mean and just like make a thing and be like guys I found this place where you can see cheetahs for really cheap and then just send them somewhere random spread them all out you know what I mean I think those we diffuse the thing those cameras work just fine I've seen them being used at Beyonce concerts people are sitting way at the back at the nosebleeds but they're able to zoom in They do make it seem like they're in front of you.

1:02:13But all of a sudden, when there's a cheetah, you need to get closer and closer and closer. I think the other thing that seems to be a disconnect, I think, especially in our sort of, you know, I think it used to be that when you watched, you know, BBC Planet Earth documentaries, that was kind of the only sort of, well, relatively, yeah, the only sort of huge, amazing way to see a video of a whale, right? Whereas now, you know, you scroll through Instagram, you're just bombarded with everything. So I think we sort of normalized it. And so now when lots of people do get to go to these amazing wild places, which I think is a great thing for all the reasons we talked about, they sort of forget that actually this is a wild place and all these animals, this isn't a zoo.

1:02:58It's not this abstract world that's in your phone. Like it's a real thing and actions that you take will decide whether or not this animal lives or dies. Like the stakes are that high. And I think it's sort of reminding people to that. that you've got to have this respect. I think it might actually sound very trivial, but you are at Disney and Disney has made a lot of cartoons. I think animating and giving animals personalities are sort of skewed the way people should look at animals and not try to find out what the animals' personalities are, like you're explaining. But I would argue in a way, though, that that is sort of a traditional sort of documentary approach which is look at the grandeur of this amazing place.

1:03:41And isn't it? Whereas - Cartoons. Or even now, I guess more recent nature documentaries, we do try and personify the characters. Yeah, they're fully characters now. And I think it's probably gone too far, but it is a way to sort of engage people and get people to fall in love rather than just it being this like beautiful wallpaper. We'll be right back after this short break. Mr. President, my company formed me of the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out.

1:04:20From the director of Birdman and The Revenant. What would happen if I stopped doing it? You starve, you freeze to death, that's what. With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the first daddy.

1:04:35If you live with diabetes or deal with low blood sugars, you know the drill. Your blood sugar drops and you need to bring it up fast. That's where Glow Gummies come in. Delicious glucose gummies made with fast-acting dextrose to raise blood sugar quickly. They're soft, vegan, gluten-free, dye-free, and don't melt or stick to your teeth. Finally, going low doesn't have to mean reaching for another chalky glucose tablet. Head to GlowGummies.com. That's GLOWGUMMIES.COM and use code PODCAST20 for 20 % off. It's okay to brag every now and then, especially when it's over savings on designer picks from Ashley.

1:05:12Sleep deeper with a great deal on the five-piece contemporary Christyland bedroom set. And when your dinner guests compliment your Corestone Round dining set, don't be afraid to tell them you saved big and that it comes with convenient storage options. With savings you can be proud of, why not boast a little? Visit Ashley.com to shop designer deals for your home.

1:06:00I remember seeing that and I found myself wondering, I was like, are there any things we could take from nature? Do you ever see things where you're like, oh yeah, this could probably work for us as humans. We should be doing this. This could be like a way of life. This could be a, you know what I mean? I don't know if this answers your question, but it's just popped into my mind that wild animals' lives are really, really hard. Yeah. But they are really good at doing what they do and that's how they thrive. Really hard. They're really hard. They're really good at what they do. Right. They like, they're really focused.

1:06:39So what I take from that is, okay, for whatever I do, I've got to do my best to get really, really good at it. Oh, okay. I like this. And I'm not saying that - No, no, no. Specialize. It's like really go into - Go into something. Get good at it. Try and do your best to try and become like a master of it Because that's how you That's how you I'm not saying you Eugene what would you say You are a master at If you were to say one thing And you can't pick comedy It has to be something else I'm going to ref sheet With you my friend And then And then actually I want to show you a video To show you how hard Some animals lives are No show us What you got Show us what you got Okay You have the most wholesome Like camera role Of any human being I know You can get any girl Like just any Okay, so this is a female puma, mountain lion, and she is hunting a guanaco, which is like a wild llama.

1:07:41She is so close.

1:07:48She's got to be within 30 meters now.

1:07:55I think she's going to go. Yeah, here she goes. She's going. Who are you cheering for? The llama? No, the mountain lion. Really? Yeah.

1:08:14No!

1:08:20Go, Pataka, go!

1:08:27Oh my god, what a fight.

1:08:33She's got it, she's got it.

1:08:39The Wukunako's still fighting, it's trying to buck her off. So my point is, animals have really hard lives. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, but you can't just go and say my point is after that. There's so many thoughts I had after that video Eugene will ask his questions And then I'm gonna ask my questions Okay, break it down First of all, mine's not really It's a question for society really Why don't we make that the experience When we're getting like takeouts You know what I'm saying? Imagine having to do They have to do that once a week for their whole life And I'm saying this selfishly as somebody Once a week Who you know Once a week for their whole life Yeah, because like sometimes I'm like Hey man, it's so easy to eat the foods that I'm eating And then I'm just putting on weight and I'm like, ah, man, I just wish it would be great if I walked into a takeout place and then immediately had to get into it.

1:09:26Can I get the chef? Two piece, you want four pieces. Bring out more.

1:09:37Can I get fries? Bring out another one. Get a kick in the face.

1:09:49I mean, it would be good for society. It's so unprofessional. It would be good for society. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then at the end of it, when you're eating your fries, and then everyone's there bleeding and stuff, and they're like, how the hell is the fear? It's dope. Really, really good fries. But you would eat less of it. You know what I mean? Like, that animal looks like it's crazy in shape. How many times does that hunt have to happen for that animal to survive? So that's an individual called Pataka. So she's like a known individual. So for that puma to survive, how many times does Pataka have to do that?

1:10:18So she had her and her two cubs. She has to take down a guanaco, sort of a big wild llama like that, maybe once every seven to 10 days. Yeah. For her whole life. Every single guy's struggle. Take down a guanaco. And what's crazy. The local bar. It's a guanaco. How long has it been?

1:10:52we can relate to this i love how you're also cheering for so how do you know wait how do you choose which animal to cheer for well that's a tough one because you know as as a wildlife camera person we are you know we we can you know never get involved and so you know it's important to not, to try, I guess, we're normally told to not get emotionally involved. You were really involved. You were screaming, go Pataka! Pataka! Joe Kidd! But what I mean by him, kill him, Pataka! I was very emotionally involved. Kill him dead, Pataka! Pataka's life don't matter! Put you on the call, man! Go Pataka! I'm not shaking.

1:11:33Pataka, kill him! Oh, no, sticking a leg out trying to trip it up. You sounded like Joe Rogan at UFC. Oh, get him! Get him! So what I was going to say, if I was allowed to finish, was we are normally told to not get emotionally attached, but often when you spend all day, every day, following an individual animal for a month or two, and you know the stakes because you know it's cubs that it has to feed. I feel like often people want to choose the side of the prey because that's the thing being attacked. And I think that's often because, you know, prey is very cute. But my point often is, well, okay, if we're going to play by those rules and based on cuteness, baby predators are usually the cutest animals.

1:12:19Like a baby mountain lion. Oh, my God, they're so cute. So, yeah, I don't think that's good logic, but that's sort of a side note there. But my point is with Pataka, her life is incredibly hard, but she is so good at doing that. She has mastered that. She's like an Olympic athlete. I really like that one Attack on it Yeah She's a single black mom Yeah that fighting hard My two cubs And I'm going in there Two cubs Public schooling Going in there Doing it Can I say like That also is a Is a valuable lesson For life though Is Don't be a single black mom If I mean That one's the hardest thing to be Sure If you are If you are going to Or rather If we lived in a world Where we were More able to see And spend time With other people We might have A little more Compassion for the situation That they're in Because think about it This is a random puma And then just because You spent time Observing her And her life With her cubs You now had a vested interest In her survival And success Yeah and I almost feel like If we just had a little bit Of that in society Just think It's just empathy isn't it Yeah but it's contact And I mean we've talked about this You know I'm a big believer In this Part of why I love pickleball And I always tell you these things But like if you meet people and if you spend time with them you're just more likely to be concerned about their well-being yeah and who they are and how they are and the further we are from them the less the less we're likely to consider them and their survival but bring it back to the wolves we talked about if you actually spend time with wolves in the wild which i've been very lucky enough to have done yeah you very quickly realize that they are not these sort of mindless man-eating killers they have these amazing social systems yes and they are so stoked to be alive and in a pack and they they love community they love oh my god they love each other so much it is so lovely you know when like if you have a dog and they do that but there's like 10 of them and there's no humans and they're just having a great party with each other and sniffing each other and having an That's pickleball.

1:14:29That's pickleball. Is it true that one of the greatest threats to these wild systems is how we expanding farming? I mean, in the case of wolves, yeah. I mean, conflict with livestock. But I guess it comes back to that empathy of if we don't spend time with them documenting their lives, showing how amazing and awesome that they are, but they're just they're not individuals they're just wolves they're a far away place it's very easy for someone to go along and be shooting them and go yeah terrible evil wolves again it's that it's a double-edged sword you need that that view into their world so what were your questions about the video

1:15:23that video

1:15:28That video was heartbreaking. For why? I mean, when the person shooting the video has clearly chosen a side.

1:15:43And as the llama you hear, you're fighting for your life. There's a guy there in a no space jacket. shouting for your death while your own llama kids are watching you I feel like most of it it's kind of fair it's kind of fair I guess I guess if you would like the context I can make a I can make a shameless plug if you watch the whole episode it's part of a series called Animals Up Close on Disney Plus you can see you can meet Pataka you can see her cubs you can see the stakes the challenges that she faces and why hunting guanaco is very challenging. And far more often, the guanaco wins. Oh, the guanaco wins?

1:16:28That stamping was far more often than not. Far more often, yeah. Far more often. Most of the time, the pumas fail. They get bucked off and have terrible injuries. How many pumas are there and how many guanacas are there? There's a lot more guanacos than pumas. That's what I'm assuming. Yo, did you see how that thing was stamping on it? Yeah, they've got the crazy neck dip. Oh, that they do like... Yeah, I mean, what a strategy. Yeah. Yeah, you want to jump on my back and crawl on my neck? I'm going to neck dip you. You know what? Actually, you brought up farming and I think farming has done a lot for conservation as well.

1:16:55I was watching this one piece about sturgeon and how wild sturgeon had almost become... What is sturgeon? As in the fish? The fish that they use for caviar. Oh, okay, okay. So they... I'm not familiar with fish. Oh, yes. Prehistoric looking fish. Amazing animals. Gigantic. What's that one with the face like that? Okay, then what face was this now? What face was this now? Was it wrong? No, I... Was it right? I don't know, because I don't... I'm asking... I'm looking at it, Mina, yeah. Was that the one? You've seen wild animals before. What is this? Do it again. Is it close? Are you sure? Yeah. Oh.

1:17:32I think it's fine. Anyway. I'm just trying to clarify which fish. Keep going. Sorry, sturgeon. Carry on. Keep going. Sounds like a prestigious person, sturgeon. Every time he says the word sturgeon from now, we're going to do an appointment with sturgeon. So what they've realized is sturgeon was almost... Don't do that Was almost extinct Because obviously They were being killed For their eggs But it actually takes Very long For a sturgeon To reach full maturity So that it can bear eggs Oh so it can bear the eggs Yeah so they were Getting extinct So in the EU They said no more Wild sturgeon So most of the carrier That you see now Comes from farmed Oh as in fish farming Fish farming yes Right So it's done a lot Obviously for Nature conservation They do it with lots of Does that count as nature conservation though?

1:18:20Let's back it up. Why not? Well, I would say that I don't know specifically a huge amount about the particular example with sturgeon. But if you look at other systems, for example, farmed salmon or even tuna, which is ranched, it's often used as a way to say, oh, this is much more sustainable because we're not affecting wild stocks. We're raising them in captivity. But actually, the reality is that it's complete and utter BS. Okay, you take tuna, for example. So bluefin tuna, previously, let's take the Mediterranean, for example. They go on this crazy migration in the Atlantic, and then some of them come into the Mediterranean Sea to breed.

1:19:12And so they would go past certain European countries a couple times a year on their way into the Mediterranean, on their way out. So these countries would get two chances to fish them each year when they swam past. On their way in and their way out. And what would happen was they would fish a huge amount during that period. They would sell them mostly to the Japanese sushi market. Okay. And it's classic supply and demand. You sell lots of tuna, you flood the market, the price drops. So what they realized is instead of fishing them and killing them, what if they ranched them? So they would go catch a whole bunch.

1:19:48They would put them in these huge nets and they would keep them alive in these nets throughout the year. So then they could sell them when the price was right. And it was often said, oh, well, you know, this takes pressure off of hunting more from the wild. I mean, that seems right. Well, there's two flaws to this. One is if you're catching a huge, huge amount, well you're still removing them from the wild you're not you're not actually farming those but the bigger issue is okay i visited one tuna ranch okay and they had 24 nets in each net they had 1 000 bluefin tuna and these bluefin tuna those things are massive they can be two two to three hundred kilos these fish they're enormous uh yeah so a thousand fish in one net guess how much food you have to feed 1 ,000 bluefin tuna per day.

1:20:45Oh, shit. Tons and tons, I'm sure. Six to 10 tons of fish per net. This one ranch had 24 nets. That means they are feeding that farm up to 240 tons of prey fish per day. That has to come from somewhere. Where does that come from? It comes from anywhere in the ocean around the world. so once a week this enormous ship would turn up with herring from norway uh anchovies from the coast of chile uh sardines from the coast of south africa wherever it was cheap and these fish would get poured into these nets we were we were catching fish to feed fish this sort of you know the worst thing about so we're just hoovering up yeah this is the dark The worst thing about learning is that it can make you very depressed.

1:21:43Yeah, 100%. No, genuinely, because I think there's a lot of people out there, myself included, who would go like, oh, this is much better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, you're farming it and then now you're telling me, oh, yeah, the second system effect of doing this has far more detrimental effects on the food supply and on the ecosystem than we thought previously. So then, okay, then what do we do? I mean, that is part of the reason I've always liked your work as well is every time I've seen you, every time I've watched your videos, you'll always offer a solution. You'll always, you don't just go like, man, that's all folks.

1:22:20It sucks. Right. Because there's enough depressing stuff in the world. Yeah. What are some of the success stories that you've come across or you've been a part of where you go, oh, look, this is like an achievable difference we can make. It's not big. it's not monumental it's not like shutting down industries it's not what what is what are some of the totally well i mean i really staying with the you know theme of the ocean the really amazing thing about the ocean is that if you give it the chance it it comes back on an unbelievable scale the speed so uh a really awesome conservation success story uh there's a place called raja ampat uh in indonesia it's amazing archipelago it looks like something out of a storybook it's all these little islands covered in green jungle.

1:23:03And around those islands underwater is some of the most amazing coral reef. But in many places in Rajah Ampat, you dive on those places and it's just a rubble field because they've been dynamite fished. So that's when fishermen would come along. They would chuck a stick of dynamite into the water. It goes bang. All the fish come up to the surface, you know, dead, stunned. You get a quick, easy catch. But of course, the fragile coral reef is left destroyed. that coral reef is the basis of the whole ecosystem and so once you've trashed that bit of reef well it's it's gone you have to move to the next place now if you're doing that on a very small scale okay maybe that could work but there's lots of people and it's yeah so it's trashed so about 20 years ago in a place called missoul the community came together and they were backed by pretty significant private philanthropy they came together and they said enough is enough you know the the ecosystem is is dying and as a fishing community we are really really struggling so they basically just set up a no take zone uh you're not allowed to fish in it many of the fishermen became um kind of rangers you know some of them became dive guides and uh 20 years on um they you know they've made this this place has made an extraordinary comeback and in that time the biomass, that's the weight of living things, at some of the key locations, it's gone up by 600%.

1:24:30And it's one of the only places on earth where the biodiversity, so it's the number of different species, is actually increasing. And they're also replanting the coral reef. And so, the coolest thing about that is that, okay, nature's thriving. Humans are directly thriving because they're being paid to be rangers and dive guides and all that stuff. But the best part is that the marine life doesn't understand the borders that we draw. So it moves outside of those protected areas into the take zone. And so the local fishing community is actually doing really well. Yeah. I mean, it's so trivial to say, but it really is, it really feels like everything you say is just, us not having a wide enough aperture to actually understand time and the benefits of things.

1:25:28You have to make a small short-term sacrifice for a long-term massive gain. Not just economic. It's all become extractive now. That's the issue. We live in a world where companies want to extract as much as possible from everyone all the time, as much as possible. now now now now now and so growth has no longer been something and you see you see that it's it's it's not one way or the other by the way there are many companies out there especially like companies that haven't gone public where they they make a shit ton of money and the product is still good and the customer is still served and they and they treat their customers their workers well because they get to define their own growth yeah do you know what i mean they don't have to just just like vacuum up shareholder value everything yeah shareholder value like where's more more more more it's like yeah you it can be more sustainably but sustainably i do wonder if in x period of time 10 20 years we'll look back on this time you know we now we look back on you know certain things that we've done in the past that we were like those people were really bad that was really bad and you know when we look at you know things like slavery um or colonization and i wonder if in the future we're going to look back on certain things that we're doing to the environment now and go oh yeah what what what do you mean you you did that first shareholder what do you mean shareholder value yeah like what what's going on there i think you you're you're assuming we'll still all be around for that because this is the weird thing you know the other day I started like reading about extinction level events.

1:27:18One thing that's most terrifying about them is how they, it's just like a tipping point. You know, it's just like one thing that tips and then all of a sudden - It unravels. Yeah, it just unravels. It's like, oh, you lost this much forest or at a certain time, this changed in the atmosphere and then all of a sudden all the trees died and then that caused the thing and this caused, but it's just like, it's just a tipping point. And then the world has to go to sleep for a few hundred years or thousand years. And then... This got very dark and depressing. And so what I would say is that, yes, we obviously have big challenges.

1:27:56But there are so many good news conservation success stories. Now you're going to see why I love Bertie. There are so many. And not to say that we should, you know, bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But if we focus on when we've got it right, rather than going naughty, naughty, this is what you did wrong, I feel like it comes back to that thing of, yeah, if you're told not to do something, you will do it. You're going to do it. Whereas if you're told, you can inspire and celebrate the wins. So what's the thing that's inspired you most recently where you've gone like, what are you working on right now, actually?

1:28:33Every time I see you, you're working on something more crazy and more interesting, and it just goes in the most random directions. So I'm working on a couple of different projects with Disney+. It's really exciting. Continuing my Up Close series. So in each episode, we go and - Do animals ever recognize you, by the way? That's funny. Aren't you that guy? No, I'm being serious. Was cheering when my mom - Are you the Pataka guy? No, what I mean is genuinely. Because you go back to some places, I'm assuming. I wonder if you've ever encountered Any animal that has in some way Shown you like a familiar Like because you know the animals Is what I'm saying Have you ever had that encounter Where an animal has sort of like Gone like oh shit Obviously not going like Bertie Well so in the case of Pataka So the reason that I know her Is that when she was a cub When she was six months old In 2017 I filmed her for a BBC David Attenborough series called Seven Worlds.

1:29:39And I was filming her mother, Sermiento. And Sermiento was fighting to protect her cubs and feed her cubs and raise her cubs. And one of those cubs was Pataka. She was six months old. She was this little fluffy cubs. Bertie, this is the context you should have given us earlier. We thought she was out here cheering for a murderer. You've known her since she was a child. So then I went back, yeah, four, five years later. And now she has not only survived, which is a big deal for Puma cubs because they don't have great survival rates. But she was now this, her mother had passed away Semyanto and now she'd taken over her mother's territory and was raising her own cubs now it felt like going back to see this long lost friend and obviously she was just like I don't know you I think if you do it long enough it'll happen I genuinely do and maybe it's the types of animals I'm not expecting a crocodile to be your friend but I do think like an elephant maybe a whale we'll have this conversation Why not a crocodile?

1:30:35Okay. I don't think crocodiles roll like that. Why? I just don't. I was recently on a project that hopefully Disney will be okay with me talking about it because it's not the main focus of the show. But I did meet a manta ray. Oh, wow. Huge, giant, oceanic manta ray. Five meter plus wingspan. Five meter? Oh, yeah. I don't think they could get that big. Moana's grandmother did. Yeah. That was beautiful imagery, Eugene. I hate it when you do that, but I love it. And manta rays have, relative to their body size, the largest brain of any fish. They're actually incredibly intelligent. And they pass the mirror test so they can recognize themselves, which is pretty mind-boggling.

1:31:24But this particular manta ray, she came over to us on our first dive at this particular location. and she was really friendly and she sort of parked over our heads. And I won't tell you what she did because that would be giving the game away. Okay, cool. We'll park that down the road. But what was amazing was that for the rest of the five days that we're at this location, every single time we got in the water, she would come and find us. See, this is what I was asking. Now, the question is, okay, they are technically capable of differentiating between humans. So was she just A massive attention seeker And went to go and be really nice to everyone Or was there something special about us And she wanted to come hang out with us I think we know the answer I hope it's the latter She had a Disney Plus subscription She was like that's Bertie And then she was like You know let me go say what's up Moana is on Disney Oh yeah Moana is also on Disney Look at this it's a collaboration Cross pollination We've done, huh?

1:32:29This is what they call synergy in the corporate world. Synergy, Eugene. You, they'll love you and you must go to corporate one day. You got to go and do it. Bertie, this has been amazing, man. I think I'm really excited for like everything. I just like, you know, because I'll tell you why. Because you've helped me and I think millions of other people who've watched the shows understand the link between the worlds. And not in like a cheesy way Just genuine in like a You know like ROI Kind of way You've really helped people go like Oh wow Alright we need that That animal We need those We need all of these animals We need these creatures to survive So that we can get our food So that we can live our lives So that we can You know what I mean?

1:33:10Yeah No I love the fact that you Emphasize that Because you know Humans always think They can go elsewhere Like if things don't work out In this reef They can go somewhere else Planet B Yes And then Planet B This guy. Sorry, carry on. But now you've made it possible, or for me to even imagine, that we must coexist with the animals that we've displaced. We don't have to be away from the Ngorongoro crater to be close to the animals or to love them even. You know, we can be there. We can't love them to death. But I think you've done a lot, man. And I hadn't known much about you until we spoke today.

1:33:45And I see your passion and I see why my friend here loves you so much. Wow, well, thanks very much for having me, guys. It's good to chat and getting people to care about animals in the natural world. And I would encourage people wherever they live, even if it's in the middle of a city, even if it's like here in New York, this city is home to the fastest animal on earth, peregrine falcon that will be hunting off the skyscrapers not far from this very room. So it doesn't matter where you live. I've always wondered if I was really seeing those. It doesn't matter where you live. There is amazing wildlife to be found.

1:34:15I was like, that looks like a falcon. Then I was like, Trevor, it's a pigeon. Clearly it's a pigeon. You can't just see a falcon in New York City Yeah you can But you can Yeah yeah yeah So yeah Give us a tip for how to sneak up on animals As you depart Like in a good way Because when you said that I was like I want to get close And like What are the do's and don'ts? Well the most important thing is Knowing your subject Knowing the animal And I think just spending time Spending time outside I know that sounds kind of obvious So first be outside First rule yeah be outside go look and and uh yeah no no knowing the animal and you you want to know as much about it do as much homework as you can about it okay research about it so don't just like don't just like go out so no well don't learn on the job no no learn on the job for sure but the reason that it's good to know things yeah or be with someone that knows things is because one that means you've got a greater chance of actually finding it in the first place and understanding what the heck it's doing when it's flying around or doing whatever but the other thing is coming back to that loving them to death you make sure that you can understand the cues that it gives off when it's you know comfortable with you being there uncomfortable so that we make sure that when we're watching animals it's on their terms and this is this is this is exactly why i only go to like a nightclub or a bar with eugene because then he can help me spot the situations and then eugene will be like whoa he's interpreting the wild yeah eugene goes like ah don't say hi oh calm down don't make eye contact with that guy absolutely shake your hips here Trevor and then you know that's how because before me he used to just feed on carcasses

1:36:00sort of works as an analogy I made a terrible mistake engaging you at all yo Bertie it was nearly really awesome thanks so much no man but thank you thanks for indulging this was fun man thank you Bertie thanks man this was great What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle Rebecca Chain is our producer Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth Thank you so much for listening Join me next week for another episode of What Now

1:37:06Thank you. Every business needs sign up at odoo.com. That's O D O O.com. Looking for your lucky side. You'll find it at Lucky Land Casino. It's your ultimate spot for fun. No app needed. Just jump right into your browser, spin for free gold coins or collect free sweeps coins for a chance to win prizes. Plus score daily login rewards every single day. Ready to meet your lucky side. Head to luckylandcasino.com right now. Your first surprise is waiting. Lucky Land Casino where the magic happens. No purchase necessary. VGW, GERB, void where prohibited by law. CT &C's 21+.