Colin Kaepernick: The NFL Tried to Buy My Silence

44:14It's the code switch. Yes. And then sometimes their white friend would walk in the bar, because it happened the last time. The white friend walked, and he was like, yeah, man, we have to do that. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened here? So when you're mixed race, who do you feel the most comfortable with one and who do you have to explain the least to? Damn that's a good question Eugene take it Colin that's a really good question actually I'm gonna throw an additional factor in here in my instance which is being adopted you're constantly explaining the background oh I didn't think about that layer cause anywhere my parents show up it's like and you can see people trying to do the math in their head like did one of them have a black partner previously yeah who had that face you come with questions oh immediately yeah so like there there was constantly a space of all right i have to explain the situation i have to explain otherwise it's like i could tell people in anything we're doing are sitting there like yeah i hear you but i'm i'm still trying to figure out like how you got here yeah so you throw that in the mix but what's interesting in for me growing up even in being uh mixed race like black and white like i just view myself as a black man because you're going to be treated like a black man anywhere you go.

45:56There wasn't a middle ground within that. Now, the realization that you have as you get older is also you're going to be treated different being lighter skin than your friends and community that are darker skin. That's a factor too. now when either one of you walks into a space that's predominantly white like you're still getting treated like you're black the part that was interesting for me growing up is in being in those spaces and having white parents i also felt like white people were a lot more comfortable saying how they truly felt to you it was it was almost like oh if those are your parents like we're good like we'll just we can talk freely because you're part of the white family right so i think there was a lot more insight that i got into um like the thinking of how white people were operating just by way of them being comfortable because of the situation, which is also an interesting piece to navigate and deal with.

47:16You know what's funny is growing up in South Africa in the township, I was only an adult when I got exposed to the phrase mixed race because there were always lighter skin kids in the township, right? We couldn't explain them, but they were there. We couldn't explain them. You know why The phrase makes me laugh Sounds like a science experiment Yes we couldn't No because it sounds like There were like 10 of you And then they were like Hey my chance Guys we need to figure this out So what's happening with this guy Yeah we We couldn't explain them Because we also You know what made it hard Not to be able to explain them Is no one at their house Looked like them Yeah yeah yeah So they had other siblings Yeah And there was mum and dad And then there was them This is my life And then But in our heads It never clicked That they were mixed race It was just a guy or a girl that looked a certain way, right?

48:09So when him and I first met, we met through comedy. So he would come to the same club as I would come to, but on the days that he was there, I wasn't there. And the day I was there, they were like, yo, there's this colored guy. So colored in South Africa is, you know how it is. Has a completely different terminology. Yes. And for context, Eric Reid, his wife is South African. Oh, I didn't know that. so I've gotten a little bit of insight from her mom right she was the first one that gave me the context of colored in South Africa being mixed yeah I was like oh this is I had to reframe like my mental model it's completely so now all the people that we do comedy with who would see him and see me they'll be like you have to meet this guy this guy is super funny this colored guy this colored guy is colored and finally we meet Then I went back to the same people I was like Which colored guy Were you guys talking about?

49:07They were like That guy And I was like That guy is far from colored Not a chance Then I was like What are you guys talking about? Because of his skin tone They thought he was colored Yeah Because it's a culture And in South Africa It's so complicated You see Tyler going through this All the time The musician They keep asking her Why you say you colored Why you say black way and shame i always feel bad for her because i'm like they're asking her to explain one of the most unnecessarily complex difficult situations that was created by apartheid in south africa which was they gave this skin tone the designation of colored but what happened over time you know and it often happens in in the face of any adversity a beautiful thing emerges colored people became their own culture but they were forced to become a culture it wasn't an optional thing so now colored is both a culture and a color at the same time at the same time in south africa but you may not be colored you can look colored and not be colored you can also not look colored and be colored so so it's i and i think like most things in life if you if you just enjoy it and try not to flatten it it actually becomes more interesting but that thing was like yeah yeah i was like guys please explain the colored part to me yeah we're like you saw him and i was like yes I did they were like then then I was like guys I spoke to the guy but culturally yeah culturally like Eugene and I basically grew up the same life the same vibe the same everything so in our world it's funny you know that question you asked I think of it here's the thing I've learned in my life I'm not saying it's the same for everybody but I will say this for the most part and I don't blame the people I blame the systems that the people have lived within I find black people are generally more comfortable and more understanding of the nuances in between.

50:55They'll roast you, don't get me wrong. There'll be plenty of that. But what I found was black people just understood all the shades of black and they knew that they existed. So they knew, it's like, okay, even being black from Ghana and then coming to America means that you have a different experience in your blackness than a black American, but you both share one commonality and that is your blackness. But then there's the nuance and the beautiful tapestry that exists within it. Yeah, where you're from, who you're from. You get what I'm saying. The same thing goes in South Africa. We also have culture to fall back on.

51:28So you might go to me like, we colored, and then I'll be like, no, m 'kosa. And then it's like, m 'kosa. Now it all becomes like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But that adds another layer to it. And people are more accepting of that. They're like, oh, mama, m 'kosa. Okay. And then, oh, okay. Oh, m 'kosa. Oh, then like, oh, his dad is white. Oh, his mom is m 'kosa. They would be so much, it was so much easier for them to grasp that but it's also because in a sad and beautiful way i've always felt like the most marginalized communities in the world whether it's in when i go to paris and i've like seen like some of the suburbs when i'm in south africa obviously where i grew up even in the u.s the most marginalized communities are the ones where people are forced to be the most mixed do you get what i'm saying explain in many ways poverty is surprisingly inclusive very much so you know what I mean?

52:26yeah it's a strange thing yeah go to any hood yo you'll see every shade every style every vibe every everything and like I say it's not to like turn it into like a Disney movie that's why I say people will roast you they will tell you about how you look you will be that light skinned nigga you will be that you'll be that somali cat you will be they will say the thing yeah but the thing is they will they both acknowledge you in your nuance and then they will accept you or not accept you on a human level i believe so that is like not everyone's just calling friends because we're humans but then i find when you move into spaces where people are predominantly defined by one thing so if you like live in a country it's like the white thing or the that space generally has like a it's like this is the band and that's it if you're not in it you're not in it and you sort of like can't be in it yeah does that make sense absolutely yeah so when you ask me the question of like most comfortable i would argue i'm always most comfortable in a space where people are very quickly able to understand the complexity and the nuance of my thing but we've often spoken about this and i've seen it whenever we we do stuff with trevor is black people in south africa they will just go straight into vernacular like any black because he speaks any African languages so they'll just go without even thinking about it and then white people are shocked that he responds like them Eugene is always shocked by this yes because I get to watch it from the outside they'll always say the same thing why do you speak the languages how did you I don't understand how do you speak the languages I didn't Trevor where did you learn all these languages I'm like in the country that I'm from From my family And from my What do you mean How did I speak All these languages How do you not know All of these languages You've lived here Your whole life In a country that is Overwhelmingly Made of these languages I'm shocked that you Don't speak these languages Without fail It happens Really After all these years After everything that he's done Everything that he's said Everything he's written about Without fail it happens Like clockwork Yeah Eugene just sits In the back laughing Or just being You've always pointed I didn't even notice that Until you said it I just lived And then one day Eugene was like Yo why do people I was like what do you mean And then the next time I was like damn Eugene's right Because it becomes So normalized Yeah It all becomes normalized You're used to having To explain yourself And that Very similar experience Don't go anywhere Because we got more What now After this We're doing the deal We're past kneeling We shouldn't be talking About Colin We're moving on to action As if action hadn't been happening for years.

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57:17Be yourself.

57:25It's going to give you a different type of outlet, though. Because, you know, when I read your story, what's beautiful throughout the book is, like, we're exploring this life of this young man Colin discovering himself and it's so many layers it's you as a boy trying to discover life then it's you as a biracial boy you're a black boy growing up in this town where there are like five black people your parents are white they love you deeply but they have very little understanding of blackness and how it is appreciated or unappreciated all of this is happening and then there's this new thing that develops on the side that's actually crystal clear and that's a scoreboard.

58:07What did sport do in your life? How did that change or develop you as a person? Because that's a whole different world. Yeah. So I love sports because they're so clearly defined. That must have been liberating. You can't tell me I'm less than when it's numbers on the scoreboard. Damn. And it becomes a space where it becomes very clear if you win or lose, if you're good or bad. That's not to say there's not politics within it and all of that, but it does become a space that's much clearer who is better and who isn't. So for me, that became a very comfortable space. It also became a space that's like, I can hyper focus and just go out and do what I love doing yeah and I will say it also looked different from sport to sport oh okay same way like culturally each sport is different like right now if you think of the NFL yeah or if you think of the NBA yeah or Major League Baseball right or the nhl just don't feel culturally you kind of have a feeling for each of those you do without ever stepping into the organization yeah yeah and for me football was the space i was like oh culturally this is closer to who i am interesting and there was there were more black people in football within turt ladder so i was like oh there's more community be here for me yeah um so i love football in that regard and one of my early experiences um When I was eight years old and I first played tackle football, tried out for the team, made the team, almost passed out the first day at tryouts, but ultimately got on the team.

1:00:22and going through our our first few days first is a is a anecdote to this one of our coaches um russ bailey was ex uh general in the military i believe or drill or drill sergeant okay yeah military yeah so eight years old out there every day it was like you gotta do 50 push-ups we'll call them push-ups I guess eight years old you're not getting a whole lot of elbow bend in there a lot more head bobbing we'd be doing leg lifts we're doing laps I was like this is this is terrible like kids are on the kids are on the field like it sounds like torture you can tell this man missed his old job yeah move move move move come on get trapped out I'm going to give it 50.

1:01:17Woo, woo, woo, woo. Get out here, maggot.

1:01:23And this was the worst part. If anybody stopped doing push-ups, if anybody stopped the leg lifts. He was one of those. Everyone else gets finished. Start it over. My kind of guy. Oh, no. So it was like kids are on the field crying. Oh, no. It's bad. But that ultimately led into this first drill. the running back was a 10-year-old, Joey Attaway. Never forget this. Joey Attaway, 10-year-old, one of the few black kids on the team. Yeah. But he was the star. Fast, strong, lean. Nobody wanted to tackle him. I didn't know this at the time. So we line up for this drill. It's called Cat in the Alley. Okay.

1:02:15Terrible drill. Half the team lines up here. Other team, half lines up here. Yeah. At opposite ends, you have a ball carrier and a tackler. Those are the cats? Those are... No, one is a cat. One is going to be the cat. Yeah, one's the cat. So, ball carrier is supposed to be the cat. Yeah. Tackler is the other one. So, you sprint around the outside. The alley. And then sprint down the middle. Wait, what? Like, at each other. At each other. Full speed, one-on-one, but you have the whole team lined up. So there's nowhere to go. Like, you have to go head on. So I'm waiting in line for my turn, and I'm supposed to be a tackler.

1:02:59I'm like, all right. And I start seeing kids shuffling around. I'm like, what are they doing? They're trying to avoid it. See kids go behind me. See kids over there like, oh, man. I've never done this drill. I haven't been in organized football like that. I'm like, all right, I'm good. All right, ready to tackle. And I look over and I realize that he's the person I'm going up against, Joey Attaway. I'm like, oh, shit. I made a mistake. Too late to shuffle now. So I blow the whistle. I take off running. I get to the end to turn around. And he is already halfway down the alley. The cat's already at the end.

1:03:53He's already halfway down the alley. He's an Ellie cat. I wanted that.

1:04:03And I go to try to tackle. He puts his helmet right in my chest. Oh! And runs straight through me. And I remember, I don't know how hard I hit the ground. I just remember looking up and I see his cleats going over my face. Oh, my God. And I just see the sky. I was like, I'm not even sure what happened right now. Did you hear the words, welcome home? It felt that way. I spent the rest of that drill regrouping. But that was my first experience. Now, I say that to say, as I was playing on that team, his mom, Mrs. Attaway, adored her. Adored her. Bigger black woman, every day at practice. Hey, baby, how you doing?

1:04:59Oh, man. How you doing? also very random growing up in wisconsin we were packer fans she was a packer fan black packer fan in turlock california i was like i don't know how this happened um but would always check on me and i was like in the moment i didn't i didn't realize it but looking back i'm like she was making sure i was good yeah yeah because she knows what turlock is Yeah. Like she just has the experience of being older. And that ties into the culture that I got to experience within football. I was like, oh, the sense of belonging within the community here, like that resonated with me.

1:05:48And that's not to say that didn't show up in ways within basketball and baseball, but football really became the home there. so the culture piece and then also being able to go out and have that definitive nature of hey in sports you get to compete and you're either better or you're not and it becomes very hard to be able to skew that perception right now you may be able to do it initially but over time players know coaches know people watching know it's like yeah you you should be starting you should be playing that's the best player out there that's the best team um so it has a level of defense against people being able to manipulate that yeah i think that's you know i i joked about this once with a friend we're chatting we're looking at like numbers in america and it was like okay incarceration and then you know employment in corporate spaces and talking about like how a black person moves and then the outsized influence or rather success of black people in sport and i remember i really said it flippantly but i just said i was like yeah because sport is the one place where you can't lie about the person's achievements or lack thereof it's there for everyone to see you just can't and we take this for granted again i don't blame the people but i think we take so many of these things for granted when you work with somebody in an office how do you grade how good they are or aren't yeah if we're honest about it do you do you look at their output but what does their output actually mean do you look at their input how they you know feel in the office or what they make other people feel like is is it is it how they sell themselves in a meeting is it how they we take yo we take for granted how much of that is just plucked from thin air and it's an idea are correlated to how we perceive good efficient performance professionalism you even see it take it out of race look at it um men and women one of the things i i remember i was talking to uh one of my team members about when i was in the office was she was having a really tough time she's like man i'm so sorry i like cried in that meeting and i was like why and she says i just i don't know i feel so like unprofessional when i cry i said but it's interesting you say that but i've seen the guys have like a temper tantrum and no one thinks that that's unprofessional and they don't apologize and they don't apologize you know be like i'm sick of this shit we gotta get it done and then people like yeah we gotta get it done he was really passionate about it and so you realize if you work in an office, for the most part, the office as a space has been defined.

1:08:33Most of its parameters that we take for granted have been defined through one idea and that idea is a white male man. Again, I'm not against it. I'm not saying it's the people are bad. It's just if you bring a group of people together and they define a space, that is what the space will generally be about. Okay? So now, that is the benchmark. How far you deviate from it will define your professionalism. You get what I'm saying? So if your hair is far from his, If your style of dressing is far from me, if the way you speak is far from his, if you're anything, the further you get, the less professional you will be perceived as being.

1:09:06Right? So even woman, you get, so when a space becomes more female, then that starts to change how we determine professionalism. But even then, it's like, how do you dress? Where does your dress get to? What is your skirt? What is your blouse? Et cetera, et cetera. You know what I mean? Right. And that's the thing that's so fascinating about sport. yeah it still comes with its politics and its complexity and we're going to chat about that but like the scoreboard is the scoreboard man it's really really difficult to close somebody out for a long time when the numbers start to speak it just becomes this world where it's like oh yeah yeah here you know do you put your numbers up do you beat your man do you get that ball to the carrier do you do you know what i mean and i so i can i can i can see that being this world but i i didn't know again you know because it's it's funny for me i i've experienced your journey backwards i didn't know that baseball was was such a big part of your life yeah and it seems like you like this is where you genuinely thought your your life was gonna go but then it was like what was like 200 how many dvds did you send out to scouts dvds yeah bro We're talking way back when, bro.

1:10:18Did you say DVD? You're damn straight. The TikToks from back in the day. Physical TikToks, baby. You carried them with you. You're going to have to put an explainer on DVD. We're just going to have a little pop-up for younger people who watch. Yeah, DVD. You sent out like hundreds, right? How many DVDs did you send out? We sent out 119. 119. to all 119 division one schools at that time that was for baseball that was for football oh that was for football that was for football now here's here's a part that we'll definitely have to explain around for my film was actually done on tape so we had a machine DVD player that would burn the tape onto the DVD so we had to go from VHS to DD you guys would have been really good friends oh man at some point this was my dream ran his own Apple music at his house that's a story for another day so you had to physically do this a hundred times over in the hopes that you would get picked up and did that with my dad and my brother yeah sent him out to every school and just got mail after mail letter after letter and I was like, yeah, we're not looking for anyone.

1:11:46And was this for the quarterback position? This was the play quarterback. You see, like, that's another layer that I've never really understood in football. And I know it's changing. And so forgive me, I'm really ignorant on this. Yeah. Why has it seemed like the quarterback position is also like a white guy position? And forgive me if I say anything, because I don't know the sport really well at all. I've watched, like, the playoffs. I see the people crashing to each other and then I watch ads for like 10 minutes. I don't really understand the sport, but I love like elements of it. But I've never understood that where people be like, oh, he looks like a quarterback or he is.

1:12:24Just explain that to me. Break that down. The best way to be able to explain it is think of the quarterback as the CEO. Okay. Of the team. Of the team. Okay. Particularly on the field. the common framing is well the ceo is going to be white okay they have to be intelligent uh-huh they have to be able to lead and command a team uh-huh they have to be a student of the game okay and all of those were attributes that were attributed to white quarterbacks okay now the flip side black quarterbacks and these were these were things that i was framed as yeah freak athlete uh gifted okay uh a dual threat okay and nothing was ever oh you're a phenomenal leader yeah yeah you're you're extremely intelligent you're a student of the game which it is fascinating because i think about coming out of high school when i was being recruited at a 4.5 what does that mean uh gpa gpa so grade point average so normal baseline is if you get straight A's you get a 4.0 okay if you take AP classes you can get beyond that that's like advanced classes yeah advanced classes so I was beyond the standard of what you're supposed to be able to get right the wonder which is also not normal for an athlete I may I might add like generally because like athletes in America would be again not their fault they would just be pushed through because athletics was so important and is so that academics get yeah they'd be like yo just push the kid through push them through then we don't care that they're not really learning just push them through so you're academic and athletic at the same time yes so the intelligence piece was always interesting to me yeah because it was like there's a track record like there's data to support what i've done there um but we see this consistently we also see it when quarterbacks, black quarterbacks have been athletic oh well maybe you should play receiver, maybe you should go tight end and trying to shift position out of the quarterback shift position away from being a quarterback and we still see this today this is not abnormal for this to occur have we seen it changing though from your time to what we're looking at now do you think there's been a big change a small change no change there's been some change around it yeah um in part because the talent and performance has become so undeniable there you go it's like you okay really like you can't make the claim that they shouldn't be playing right right right right right that's not say that they still don't try yeah the perception remains the same but I do think outside and more throughout society, people are starting to look at me like, no, that's the normal.

1:15:55That's the norm now. Yeah. Because if I could have someone back there who could stand in the pocket and throw the ball the same way his counterpart can. Right. And also can run a 4-4. You give me more options and you give our offense more options. Yeah. And that's what we're seeing play out. And that actually took a lot of time for offenses to evolve and offensive coordinators. To actually accept that there was somebody who could do more than the position had previously. That's interesting. There was a wave within football that they would have, typically it would be a white quarterback. Yeah. and then they would call in what would be a wildcat package.

1:16:44Okay. Which would be, we're going to bring a running back in to play quarterback because we want them to be able to run the ball and give us more options. Okay. So, like, we need you to throw. In this instance, for the running back, we're going to bring you in, play quarterback, but we need you to run. Yeah. Which defenses then looked at and were like, well, I know you're running the ball. Like, your running back's not throwing. They can't throw. And it's like, well, you have an option today that can do both of those. Yeah. Why would you not just do that? So it's pretty unpredictable now. And that was the, I think that progression.

1:17:22And we see this early on, like Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, Cordell Stewart, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, all of these black quarterbacks that came in extremely talented. Yeah. and I would say oftentimes limited by how the offense was designed to be able to maximize their abilities. Have you ever seen – there's a few studies that have been done on it, but there's one that came out really, really recently. Somebody analyzed – like a team analyzed the commentary in the Premier League, so the soccer league in England, and all they did – This is like one of those where, again, the data, that's where data is a beautiful thing.

1:18:12They just looked at the commentary and the words that were used for white players, the commentary and the words that were used for black players. That was it. That was it. They just wanted to see. When you look at the word map, the amount of times a white player was called intelligent, thoughtful, skillful. it was always like man the way they think about the game such a talent the way he oh his vision his ability and then the black players was always like he's a beast the man is you know what I mean he's unstoppable a force of nature a an absolute look at him power down the field and and some and don't get me wrong some of the things were very complimentary but but the type of compliment was like reserved in a certain way so it was like on this side it was yes you are like this machine and you are big and you are powerful and you're strong and you're gifted naturally it i mean no one can stop you you're just an unstoppable thing and then on this side it was like the way you use your brain man oh just moments where you use your brain and it's and and it's interesting how you this is 2026 by the way we're not talking about like 40 50 years ago and again those commentators i don't think are being like assholes the premier league even has like an anti-racism campaign there was talk about any black commentators in there in the premier league That's a good question.

1:19:32I'm sure there are contributors, but I don't think there's many main commentators. But again, because of the sport, they've brought in a lot of pundits and co-hosts and stuff. But you see, what I've also noticed in Premier League football, whenever they speak about a black player, they'll always also speak about their descent. They'll be like, so if a Chelsea player is from Ghana but now lives in the they'll say of Ghanaian descent and then yeah they love doing that their long journey in the they love doing that in the Premier League and then he's doing very well yeah he does a lot for his community as well and then they'll be like why are you telling us about this why are you explaining him can I tell you what I think it is they did a lot in the World Cup now can I tell you what I think it is genuinely honestly what I think it is so I think sometimes how something is intended is not how it's received right and this is life and now I think our role I mean it's your choice and you talk about this in the book and you talk about as yourself in life you can make a decision you can choose to receive the thing as it was intended you can choose to tell the the the the deliverer of the message that they've done it wrong etc etc I think what's often happening is people don't realize that they are they're showing how they've perceived a group of people and so they're like impressed by the journey that you've taken which can be felt in a very condescending way it can be it can feel very condescending so they're just like oh eugene i mean to see you i mean you've traveled around the world and huh this i mean this it's just look look where you came from and you wow you sound like immigration but but you get what i'm saying so i think i think sometimes sometimes the way they're saying it I think they're saying it because they are surprised that that person is there but they don't realize that their surprise is revealing something and not necessarily negative.

1:21:36It's just a feeling of something but they don't have that surprise when a player worked themselves up. So I'll give you a simple example. I very seldom heard commentators say this about Zlatan Ibrahimović. That's what I was about to say. And Zlatan Ibrahimović had one of the hardest lives growing up. He's one of the greatest footballers we've ever seen. He's one of the most talented individuals. A true freak of nature. 100%. The man is like probably your height. Like he's massive but he's nimble and he was quick and he was like he would do like acrobatic moves that like only tiny players would do.

1:22:08Everything. And when you read his story you're like man you know family from like the Soviet bloc and then they go to Sweden and he's an outsider and he's not accepted and all of these things and he's like he's not Swedish enough and he's not blonde and blue eyed and all these things. and the way he speaks, and all of this. But commentators very seldom, if you look at his career, very seldom spoke of him in that way. They very seldom spoke of him as a Cinderella story. They very seldom go like, man, from humble beginnings, Zlatan Ibrahimovic. No, they're just like, Zlatan, what can he not do? I mean, the guy, the most gifted player on the ball, the way he thinks about the game, and his talent, and he's just like, oh.

1:22:46He's phenomenal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you will find generally a player who's had a similar journey to his, but they happen to be a person of color, then people focus on that. But I've also noticed in soccer that it's easier for comment, maybe not easier, but commentators will gravitate towards explaining someone who's mixed race, trying to explain it to the listeners than someone of mixed heritage. Yes. Because in Europe, there's a lot of that. There's mixed heritage. Yeah, there's a ton of it. Czech, Czech, Republican, mom, and Belgian dad. Albanian, whatever, yeah. No one will ever say, with an Albanian mom and a Czech dad, he's come very far.

1:23:22You're not wrong. But if a mixed-race Belgian player plays, the commentator almost feels the need to explain who that guy is. His mom is from here, his dad is from there. How many… You know what I blame, though? A lot of times I've heard of his World Cup. Yeah, but what I blame again, like I say, remember, they all get their factoids, right? So the good commentators, at least, what they do is before a game, they will try and get as much information as they can on every single player. They download everything, really, and they try and learn where they're from. because they want to tell a story during a match.

1:23:50To them, what's interesting is that, because that's abnormal. You're actually noticing a thing that I'm saying. To them, it's abnormal. They're going, wow, and you know a Nigerian father, and then they'll say it about Colin as well. They'll be like, Colin Kaepernick, an absolutely fantastic player, originally adopted two really, really wonderful parents, grew up in Turlock and really, you know, grew up one of very few children of color in his community. Oh, Colin Gabbard is shooting the ball. It's really great. But they feel like that is what makes your story interesting. And so genuinely, when I watch it, I go, I don't think of it in a malicious way.

1:24:36I go, it shows us something, but I understand where they're like coming from. You know how, whenever I hear commentators doing exactly what he just did, I'm just glad It never happens in real life. Imagine every time you walk into a room, that commentator starts. You know, you'd be surprised about how he got here. Seeing as how he performed in high school. When you walk in the office, and when here we are, accounting department of J.P. Morgan, and it's going to be a big team meeting today. You've got everyone gathered. Brad Smith, there he is. Really, really strong guy. I mean, he's just, the way he thinks about the numbers in this team.

1:25:12You know, Bill, he's just, yeah, you know, he's really shown that he's a top thinker. He's a strategist. He's got everything going. His reports every single quarter. Then bring back a shameful background. Then stronger. And, oh, look who we got here. Oh, one of his coworkers. Oh, the one and only. Oh, the man himself, Marcus the Beast. Oh, look at, I mean, Marcus, look at this guy. His physique. The way he moves through the office. Have you seen how many files he can pick up at the same time? I mean, imagine this guy delivering a report to your office. What are you going to tell him? What are you going to do?

1:25:46Well, interesting fact about Marcus, Jim, is that his dad of Nigerian descent and his mom from Wisconsin. He's overcome a lot. He's just, I mean, his story, he's just overcome a lot. That's a real rags to rags.

1:26:04Let's get into the part of your journey that like really, I mean, there are two parts for me in football that you spoke about beautifully. I didn't coughed away from the mic. Yeah, no, no. He's been press conferences, but he knows.

1:26:20You know, because... I keep the sound quality high. Yeah, I love it. The reason I want everyone to read your book is because I think when anybody writes a book, if they write it well, it is both a beautiful introduction to a human being, but it's also a fascinating look into aspects of lives that we may never get to live, you know? and for me it's the sport itself you know when when when you're like in a you're sharing a room with cam newton and he's got like tons of arm under armor gear you've got no gear and he's just like yo just take it and have it like that that beautiful experience where you know where he's like in this echelon that you don't even know that you're going to get to at some point but you do you know when you talk about like meeting your idols and then becoming teammates with the working with them like there's so many parts of your journey but i know we'd be remiss if we didn't get into like two of the biggest seminal moments the first one being you the super bowl just like how you get into the team and how this like changes your life you know going to the mall getting mobbed let's just talk about that shift because for your for your whole life colin kaepernick sort of sticks out you stick out you you don't look the same as your family you don't like the same as most of your community and then you you step into a sport and you you know you go to a college and all of a sudden you blend in you find yourself you find parts of yourself you didn't know existed it becomes this like beautiful new version of what you get to exist in and in a way you're like anonymous again in a beautiful way in a way that i think everyone should experience like being both anonymous and special when you're an athlete you're part of that group you're part of that but there's a moment where it all switches for you and i i'm really fascinated as to like how you dealt with that and and what that meant for you like where was the moment where it shifted and then what was it like going forward from that like when you when you're in the nfl it's i love that question because when i think about what i was doing yeah there actually wasn't a shift The shift was the perception.

1:28:35I love the smell. Yo.

1:28:39Because all of the training, all of the workouts, all of the dedication, the film, working with teammates, staying after practice, showing up early. Yeah. All of those things were happening that ultimately led to the moment that when Alex Smith got hurt, I was ready to be a starter.

1:29:06And I think oftentimes we look at those moments and it's like, oh, this came out of nowhere. But not for you. All of a sudden, like a star is born. It's like, no, at that point, I had been playing football for 15-plus years. I had been, this was year two of me being in the NFL. Yeah. I had been putting in work for 18-plus months with the San Francisco 49ers just waiting for a crack in the door to be able to get on the field. because it's like, I know I can do better out there. And that position is tough because it is only, like in soccer, you might find a gap because let's say you're a right winger.

1:29:58Your coach might be like, you know what? I'm going to play you as a striker for this game. I'll play you as a midfield. Quarterback's quarterback. You get one. There's one, bro. And what made this situation unique too is my first year in the NFL, was Jim Harbaugh's first year with the 49ers. Okay. That first year, we went to the NFC Championship. Alex was playing well. Our team was good. Yeah. The second year, Alex gets hurt. I step into this role. And the first game, he gets hurt in the middle of the game. I jump in, go. We were behind. We end up tying the game. leaves questions for people of like, oh, some good moments in here.

1:30:45But like, we haven't seen you play a full game. But it wasn't a win. It wasn't a win. We haven't seen you play a full game. Yeah.

1:30:55And going into the next week, we have a Monday night football game against the Bears. And the question is like, is Alex going to play or not? Will he be back from concussion protocol? during the whole week we're sharing reps we're going back and forth it's not until sunday night that i'm told i'm going to be starting so less than 24 hours before game time and it didn't feel that different to me outside of the fact of oh this is my moment like this is my shot but all of the work and preparation had already been happening yeah and then go out play well we win the game um we have a great game out there and then the questions start coming up oh so who should be starting now and those questions came very quickly and the following week we're getting ready to play the saints and me and alex are splitting reps throughout the week and coach harbaugh had not made a decision over who's going to be starting damn so it's still everything in limbo finally makes the call i'm going to start the next game he's going to give alex another week to rest to recover go out play well we win against the Saints we beat Drew Brees and the Saints in the Superdome which is that is not a small task it's like a rainy night at Stoke it's also against you yeah it's just and that like very talented team go out we play well we win and then it becomes oh wait like you can't go back now wow, you can't switch quarterbacks at this point.

1:32:56Yeah. And that became the continuation of, oh, okay, now you're our starter until you show us you're not. Wow. And when I think about those moments from the time I was young, I remember my dad telling me prepare as if you are the starter at all times and what becomes most interesting to me about that when I started playing at 8 years old when I went to middle school football when I went to high school when I went to college when I went to NFL at every level I was always put in a backup position every level so i always had to work my way into a starting position and i think that's part of the reason i love sports is because you can say i'm not better initially and try to put me in a position that i shouldn't be in yeah but it's very hard to deny it over time players see it coaches see it parents see it everybody begins to see it and that was the part that in san francisco the spring before i started yeah i was randy moss had joined our team um my childhood hero it's crazy it it's surreal yeah serendipity and during uh otas which is uh off-season training activities.

1:34:42So that happens in the spring. During that springtime, Randy walks over to me after one of the practices. He's like, hey, if we're going to go to Super Bowl, you're going to have to take us there. This is your hero telling you this. This is crazy. This is Randy Moss. I'm like,

1:35:07there's a moment of like, Randy Moss is telling me this. I have not started a game for the 49ers, but he's just seen me in practice and is like, you're the person who's going to have to take us there. How did that feel? Oh, I mean, at this point, Randy Moss had played with Randall Cunningham, Dante Pepper, Tom Brady, Brett Favre. like he played with stars and to have him say that it's like oh you've played with all-time greats yeah the confidence that comes out of that yeah it's like oh okay i i have to prove you right I have to and that year we go on we go to the Super Bowl no way go to the Super Bowl that year my 10th start of my career was in the Super Bowl it it's amazing but it was such a moment of I'm a backup quarterback an injury happens you come in and play and you have to show that you can do it and then everything else from there is just a byproduct of all of the work that you have already done and you have to continue to do it it was a crazy game a close game, it was one of those games that you hear about outside of sport even when you're not in the sports it was just one of the, wasn't like didn't you throw for like record yardage as well in that game what was it I feel like I remember like your numbers I just remember them at the time people kept on saying we've just never seen like a quarterback throwing these numbers in a Super Bowl it was wild 300 plus yards in the air another 60 plus on the ground yeah it was offensive stat wise great game yeah I like that what I'll also say for us as a team going back and looking at the film we didn't play well No way.

1:37:26Like, it was not a good game for us offensively. Even though, I mean, we put up, I believe it was 31 points in the Super Bowl. For us walking out of there, we were like, we should put up 40 plus points. We played bad basically the whole first half of that game. Like, little mistakes here and there that just piled up. had turnovers um we coming out of halftime uh we kick off they return it for a touchdown and it was like this is so abnormal for us and second half we turned around we we come back in the fourth quarter we get within five yards um of the go-ahead touchdown and we come up short. And it's like, that is obviously not the way you want to end it.

1:38:33What I will say is it does put you in a space that being so close, like you know what it feels like to be there. Yeah. It's like, oh, we have to go harder to get over this hump. And you start preparing. But for me, I started preparing as soon as we got back. It was like, I can't live with that feeling. Yeah, almost. Like the only thing I know how to do in relation to that is go back and get to work to try to make sure that doesn't happen again. Don't press anything. We've got more What Now after this. We're not doing that. Like, we're not selling people out. and you're also not going to take our careers away while we're fighting for black people and then be like, be the face of the thing that says we support black people.

1:39:23Whilst not actually supporting. Yeah, that's interesting.

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1:41:21So you don't have time to process the moment. You don't have time to process because it's the joy of reaching the Super Bowl. It's the historic occasion. It's your 10th start. It's a thing that wasn't promised to you, but you were part of creating for yourself. being chosen and then stepping up to the choice all these you don't even have time you just got to get back in and then start start working again all of this is happening you're in the nfl you you're playing football and then yo man like all of a sudden like like cat in an alley again another thing comes and tackles your life and it's protests it's america going through a period where it felt like every single week we were seeing police shootings of unarmed people black men oftentimes most times actually and then like the videos would contradict what the police were saying every single time would be a statement the person did this and then the video would come and be like but they didn't do that and then you saw trust in society fraying and all of this was happening in the midst of that and you you really lay this out beautifully in the book it's like you have this moment where you are you're basically processing everything that's going on and you make a decision and I honestly I hope that people who think they don't like you and I'll say think because they don't know you but people who think they don't like you I hope if they only read one part of the book I hope they read that part because I think it's shaped so much of how people think your thought thought process worked but it really showed me that there was no quote-unquote right way to do it because everything in every part of your story was what someone told you to do the other way around and then they shifted the goalposts and you shouldn't protest like that you shouldn't have done it like well why didn't you do that why did you do that why why didn't you take us through that moment please like you know because let's start at the beginning, the very first time that you decided to not stand for the anthem.

1:43:26What was going through your head and where was this and how did it happen? So going back to the moment of first sitting during the anthem in August 14, 2016, preseason game. And to your point, this moment of reflection, an important context leading into that is for the years prior i've been educating myself on black history systemic uh oppression we're trying to get a better understanding of why systems are moving and operating the way they are yeah and what that has looked like historically In the midst of doing that, I get injured in the 2015 season. Three separate injuries. Tore my labrum, tore my UCL in my thumb, tore my meniscus, had to get surgery on all three.

1:44:29Before you move on actually with the story, let's just rewind on this because this part of the book was really revealing to me. And it made me have a deeper level of empathy and respect for athletes. you made me realize in a really crystal clear way that we as fans take for granted that the athlete is not necessarily completely aligned with the sports organization that they work for no because i i know we're going to go down that story and we'll come back to it but i you just reminded me of something you talked about in the book about those injuries when you were getting looked at by the team they didn't tell you that you had a torn meniscus They didn't tell you that you had a torn part of - UCL.

1:45:12UCL. They didn't tell you that. They didn't use those words. There was a contusion is what they said. Contusion, which is essentially a bruise. Yeah. The minimization of it. Yeah. Well, what you realize is the team doctors are paid by the team. Yeah. They're not your doctor. They're not your personal doctor. So they're not there for your well-being. Depends who you ask. But in practice, I just look at things from an incentive structure. Yep. Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. Their incentive is to do what the team wants them to do and position things the way the team wants them to position it.

1:45:52So for me, I first injured my shoulder. They looked at it, told me it was a contusion. I was like, all right. So I just have to deal with the pain. keep playing keep playing uh it was a game or two later get tackled uh with the football in my hand like this my thumb splits oh tear my ligament here and they look at it like oh it's it's contusion like you just have to be able to deal with the pain and through this process every snap i take in practice excruciatingly painful but i'll say you have to get into the mind of a football player as well like there is a difference between being hurt and being injured in a football player's mind Being hurt is like, this may be extremely uncomfortable, but I'm not injured where I can't play.

1:46:58Part of the race within an NFL season or football season is what team can stay healthiest throughout the season. Yeah. When they tell me, oh, it's just a pain thing. You have to deal with the pain. For me, it's, oh, I can do that. If that's what I have to do, then I'll do that and I'll navigate it because I need us to win. The goal is winning. Pain just becomes an obstacle in that. Next game or a couple games later, get tackled, hit my knee, knee swells up, contusion. and the only reason i actually found the found out that these weren't contusions is because my now wife nessa yeah is flying in from new york and she comes to visit me and getting ready to lay down for the night i'm laying on my back and i didn't know at the time but i had a tear in my labrum on the front of my shoulder so if i just laid there like this my humerus was putting pressure on the tear so i was like i can't sleep like this like this is terrible so i feel the pain just hearing about it i stacked pillows all around my arm so i could sleep on my back with my arm up i was like all right this doesn't feel bad so i'm doing that and she looks at me and she's like what the fuck are you doing?

1:48:37Like what like what like what is what is that? You're like isn't that how you sleep in New York? It's a new thing. Like well it feels better if I sleep like this. She's like you need to go to the doctor and get an MRI. Like what are you talking about? No they just told me it's contusion. Like I'll be alright. Be alright. go to the doctor so i go to the doctor get an mri comes back and they're like oh it's just you know it's just a little tear like just a little tear like be able to deal with it no worries can check it out at the end of the season yeah at this point i'm like well you told me it was a contusion and now it's a tear now you're telling me it's a tear I'm going to get a second opinion that's not affiliated with the NFL.

1:49:32So I sent it off to a doctor in Vail, Colorado, Peter Millett, checked it out. And he was like, you have a significant tear. Like you need to get surgery. I was like, well, they told me this. Like, no, you need surgery or you may tear the whole thing. So I'm like, all right. And so at this point, I'm like, I don't even know how to approach this. They're like, hey, I have to go get surgery. That's what the doctor is telling me. And I don't trust y 'all. So I go back and I confront our head trainer at the time.

1:50:18And this is one of these things that in saying this, I know there's going to be a reaction that people are going to be like, that didn't happen because that's too wild trainer goes oh well I told you it was a little terror because of my southern accent no you know it's just it's just a little terror little terror and why don't you why don't you go ahead and play more games Colin why don't you go ahead and ignore that over there it was blamed on the accent he blamed it on his own accent yo that's that's wild when I tell you the the level of rage that i had i was like i need to get out of this office because this is not good this is also a sport where if i understand your your your contract isn't guaranteed right like it doesn't work like so in the in the in like for instance in uh premier league football if you get injured you you still get paid they pay you because they go you got injured doing the thing that we paid you to do on duty 100 on duty right and then i think basketball is the same.

1:51:23In football, it's not like that, right? There have been a couple people that have been able to get guaranteed contracts. A couple? Yo, come on. There's two that I can think of. The fact that it's even called a guaranteed. This is crazy. But otherwise, like, your contract isn't guaranteed. They can cut you tomorrow and be like, hey, we signed you to a$100 million deal or a$300 million deal. And actually, we may not like that tomorrow and we'll cut you and we don't. No, wait, really? and we don't owe you that money oh I didn't know it was that level but then it's not a deal it is it's not a deal we need to make sure you never get your own NFL team you'd be a menace this guy deal with it NFL contract sounds like radio contract in South Africa so what are you going to be doing next week what do you mean well you're not going to be here exactly so okay no because i want to paint some some some context for the people there so you're dealing with all these injuries now we've now we we you know we flash forward now yeah now this is you you're injured you're in that season so injured as i go up to veil to get surgery yeah i also ask can you check out these these other injuries or other areas that they told me were contusions right like yeah you you tore the ligament in your thumb which is that's my throwing hand right it's like navigate that did a scan of my knee like tore your meniscus in your knee had to clean that up so at one point i'm sitting in veil i have a sling on my left arm i have a cast on my right hand and i have a sleeve on my left knee i was like this this is absurd like I just need to get healthy.

1:53:12I need to get back on the field. But what it also did, this was the first time in my career that I actually had to be still. Wow. There was never another moment that was like, you can't go train. You can't go practice. No distraction. You can't go. And I'm in Vail. I still have to go do my rehab. but the rest of the day I'm sitting there I'm like alright what what do I do and continuing to read continuing to research as part of this and it's months and months long as far as rehab and during this time period Mario Woods is killed in San Francisco and at that point in time I was visiting my family at home I'm sitting here watching the video I was like they they just executed this man in the middle of the street and the video looks like a firing squad like the police have him surrounded they said he had a knife and was threatening them he there was no scenario where he was any threat to them and they kill him and you just you hear all of the officers shots just ringing out i'm sitting here i'm like this this is on the back of mike brown tamir rice freddie gray like we're and those are just the high profile ones those Those are just the high profile ones.

1:55:01Back with Sandra Bland. We've seen this so frequently at this point. And it's like, what am I going to do? What can I do about this? And that actually became the moment that I call my wife, Nessa. And I'm like, seeing this, we have to do something. And we start thinking about what we can do. and that's actually where the birth of know your rights camp came from oh yeah yeah is december of 2015 and as we're building know your rights camp we're thinking about how we get our community home safe how we protect them as we were doing that there was also a realization of what a low bar to set to be like hey let's make sure our community doesn't die that then made us think about what other programs should we be building around this to help them thrive and i think that ties into some of the perception you were talking about yeah even in relation to how we are described when it comes to journeys or where we're coming from that's like we've set the bar down here for you so low that when you cross that bar it's like success it's amazing yeah it's like no the bar should be here it's just been low for so long that we've accepted those things right and so we were doing that work and as we're doing that alton sterling is killed yeah in baton rouge um philando castile is killed in minnesota and it just becomes this culminating moment where everybody's looking around saying, we need to do something.

1:56:55We have to do something. And the question becomes, well, then what are we going to do? And who's going to do it? And who's going to do it? And for me, the first time I protested, I was saying, it's like, I don't believe in the propaganda of what you are selling me. I believe we deserve better. And in that belief led me to protest. And when it became public, wasn't until three games later or to the third game. That's what I mean by the significance and the detail is so important in this. One of the biggest criticisms that you experienced, and I think many people experience, is that they did not protest in the correct manner.

1:57:46This is oftentimes the criticism. People will say, they'll say, you know, Colin, I'm all for, we live in a country with First Amendment freedoms. You can speak your mind. I'm off, but do it in the right manner. Do it in a peaceful manner. Do it in a way that isn't disruptive. Do it in a way that, but just literally so people can hear from you. Because you write this, you write this. Yeah. Literally, your protest at the time was you sitting where? Sitting on a Gatorade cooler. That was it. While the anthem's playing, the man is sitting on a Gatorade cooler. He's not interrupting an anthem. He's not cursing people out.

1:58:24He's not fighting with people. No, no, no. He's just sitting quietly. Who's too late, as we'd say? Yeah. He's there. He's quieted himself, is the way we put it. It means you are to yourself and you've quieted yourself. You know what I mean? And you bother no one. Three games, you're doing that. it's not a thing then something happens the then after the third game um finished playing it's the first time i actually stepped back on the field coming back from my injuries and cleaned up in the locker room our pr team comes over and they're like hey uh we just got a request from steve weish that he wants to talk to you after your press conference about why you weren't standing during the Star Spangled Banner.

1:59:16I was like, oh, okay. And I could tell they were a little nervous. Yeah. It was a high-pitched request. Hey, hey, um, we just... Hey, um, look, um, we just... We had a...

1:59:40the part that definitely comes through is the the hesitation the stutter in it and you could tell there's something more there I'm like alright so I go do the press conference everything's fine talk to Steve Weiss after talked to him on the side. He's like, hey, I want to ask you, why weren't you staying for the Star-Spangled Banner?

2:00:13And give him full explanation why I'm doing it, systemic oppression, what black people have faced, what we're seeing right now in police killing black people. and I remember he was like you know what comes with this right damn and Steve White's a black man damn he's like like you you know the implications I was like in that moment yeah because Because at that point, I had already been studying. History tells us this. Yeah. Whether it's Muhammad Ali, whether it's Kurt Flood, whether it's Tommy Smith and John Carlos, whether it's Mahmoud, whether it's Kareem. We have seen this. Yeah, Owens. Yeah, you name us.

2:01:13Owens, it's not a new playbook. Right. and I said that to him in that interview like I know this could cost me my job I know it could cost me endorsements At the same time, for us collectively, we have to look at are the fear tactics and consequences that are potentially placed in front of us going to be the thing that stops us from doing what is right and what we know is right? Yeah, it's safety and incentive. And that, to me, that becomes the lever that is held over us. Yeah. Is because coming out of slavery, because coming out of Jim Crow, we have been put in a socioeconomic position. Yeah.

2:02:09It's like, yeah, there is more poverty. Well, you want to get more money, right? Like you want to live a better life. What comes with those dollars is the expectation of that professionalism. Yeah. You look the way we want you to look. You act the way we want you to act. You assimilate to the culture we want you to assimilate to. And to your point, anytime you stray off of that, it's like, well, we need to cut that thread and make sure that everything else stays intact. and the reality is the status quo of what we are living in is an acceptable one the bar's too low not only is the bar too low it's quite literally killing us and that's not only is it killing us it has been made legal to do so in full view in full view and also it puts us collectively in a position that is well do you just accept it?

2:03:26Do you hope it just misses you? Like it doesn't knock on your door. Yeah. And you just alright let me see if I just do the right things I can avoid it. And ultimately what we see it may not knock on your door it might knock on your neighbors or the rest of your family in some way or fashion ultimately it is going to come back to you the thing that people also don't realize I know Barack Obama quoted Nelson Mandela on saying this but Mandela said something that truly was one of the most powerful things and it's stuck with me in my brain forever these systems what a lot of people don't realize is they imprison everyone and he he had the famous line he said he learned in his time in robin island you need to break these systems up because you need to free not only the prisoner but also the god and that's i think that's what made nelson mandela unique is that like he he had a compassion for his captors that people didn't expect any human being to have he made friends with them we always talk about the stories he befriended they had to rotate his prison guards so that they would not become friendly with him yeah but also sympathetic to his cause because when they spoke to him as a person they were like wait this guy seems reasonable this guy seems actually these are good points about the country because this is one of the biggest misconceptions i think people have we always assume that we are all experiencing the same reality at the same time yeah and so we judge other people for not coming to the same conclusions that we've come to because we're like but we're both seeing the same reality you get what i'm saying but but what's interesting about it is when you realize you're not seeing the same reality when you realize a huge majority of white south africans did not know what the black experience was at all yeah and it's not that they didn't care no they just didn't know and how could they know the news didn't show it to them when you read about uh dr martin luther king jr most of his campaign was him trying to get the images and the videos to the white people in america because he believed he's like yo if they see what's happening they will then have a different understanding and i think you it's funny you were almost i know this is crazy to say but it's you almost like ahead of the curve because when Black Lives Matter really explodes, when the pandemic hits, when people now no longer have the social or the socioeconomic constraint, you saw how they responded and the distraction.

2:06:02Black and white were marching in the streets. People collectively all over the world were saying, hey man, something just needs to change. Imagine that for a movement to move from the United States to Paris, to Spain, it can't just be like people being, yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. I'm going to join and it was like, no, actually, we didn't know that this was something that everyone was experiencing. And actually, what are we doing here? And it needs to be done. Yeah, but the timing of when you were doing it made it so that you didn't have the cover of the collective. That's a good one. You know? So you were the one who sticks your head up first.

2:06:37So you get, you're in this world. You know, you kneel with your teammates. It becomes, like, let's do it respectfully to be together. That's still not accepted. Everything is not accepted. Everything. We go through this world, and I'll speed through what now people know, and I want to get to the other side. Let people read the book, but I want to get to the other side that people don't know. For a lot of people, it felt like Colin disappeared. For a lot of people, it was like if the people don't know you, Know Your Rights campaign. If they don't know you and your community gatherings, for many of them, it was Colin disappeared.

2:07:13Where's Colin? There were moments where we saw you throwing the ball and saying, I'm ready to play in the NFL, but the NFL wouldn't have this. So just help us understand, what happened in that end part? They shut you out. You took them to court. I don't know what you can or cannot speak about, but what actually happened and how did that conclude? Yeah, so coming on the back of the protest, the NFL blackballed me. They couldn't get a job with any team. um we did a full breakdown of this in relation to was this going back to to facts and stats yeah historically someone of my caliber that has performed the way i have has there ever been a scenario where they haven't found a job after a season not a single one so the data supports that the reality also supports it in relation to uh went uh to go visit the seahawks everything they're asking is about the politics damn the following year um they call me to come in for a workout they've already said like we know you're a starter call me to come in for a workout before i get there yeah um or before i'm supposed to get on the flight call my agent and i like well before he comes will he commit to not taking a knee and i wouldn't commit to that cancel my flight workout never happened so there are plenty of instances of this happening um and also just be explicitly clear with it no team has ever offered me a job at any position not as a starter not as a backup up not as a practice squad player damn no position whatsoever so going from a starter to nothing yeah um on the back of that uh filed a grievance against the nfl um that is laid out by the cba process which is the collective bargaining agreement between the players union nfl so have to go through that process yeah um part of the terms of that process which i will say candidly i did not know going in um is everything is confidential right which i thought there would be opportunity to expose all that um had a settlement with them um i would say it is also interesting when we talk about systems and incentives you have to go through a special arbitrator as part of that process that is agreed upon between the nfl and the nflpa at any point they can be fired by either one of those mid arbitration um i believe mid arbitration but also um from my understanding that agreement at any point they'd be like we don't like you So going back to incentives, that became a factor.

2:10:21Also during that time period, because we had looked at, can we take this to the Supreme Court? Right. This factor. We also saw the Supreme Court flip under Trump. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kavanaugh gets elected. Gorsuch gets put on the Supreme Court. both of them backed by nfl teams and organizations um one by john elway in the denver broncos the other by michael bidwell in arizona which then made that not a viable path um so ultimately got to a settlement as part of that as part of it i was still able to seek employment yeah I can obviously still say what I want about the NFL. But to the point of why haven't you spoken and those things.

2:11:21During the time period I was protesting, it's fascinating to be able to see perspective. Over and over again, I heard, oh, well, you're talking so much. Why is he always on TV? why does he always have press conferences why is he always which all of those were mandated by the nfl as a starting quarterback like you have to be available for the media yeah three times a week yeah that's your obligation that's your obligation as part of your job so i can't control what they're asking me but what i can control is i'm going to be honest when you do asked me right so the volume of that was significant during that 2016 season everybody was coming and asking it becomes fuel in the flame yeah and it's like oh we'll get clicks out of this like we we like this it's good momentum um on the back end of that there was also a realization of within media within society and culture i had a sense that it was like well you are the leader within this yeah and i was like that to me that's not an appropriate position of like the leader it's like there's people doing work across the country yeah that's extremely valuable and that needs to be elevated and part of that is and this is some of the learnings that we take from ella baker it's like not only do you need strong leaders you need strong people yeah like we have to be strong collectively right right right which also means as someone who who is viewed as a leader there's times you have to step back and allow other people to step into leadership positions and lead from the back and part of that was also uh the realization of like, as they were trying to discredit me, it was like, well, if they can discredit me, they're going to try to discredit the movement based off of that as a proxy.

2:13:32It's like, we'll make you illegitimate, which means anything that you are talking about is illegitimate. It's like, that's not reality. So how do we elevate more people into that space? and for me that is one of the pieces that was extremely important the other part is generally my leadership style is i'm going to do the work and i have to do the work if i'm going to ask other people to do it so while people may view it as oh you're you're silent or you're not on tv talking and doing these things we're doing direct work in the communities yeah and we're doing across the country we've done it internationally and that became the focus of the efforts like how do we organize on the ground better more collectively and now this becoming a an opportunity to be able to to re-engage and reignite that and be able to take that further but that work never stopped um part of it just becomes like strategy around where we think we're going to have the biggest impact what is your relationship with jay-z now where does that stand because that's become like a a twitter guessing game you know people are like jay-z said this colin feels that i don't i don't know anything about any of it and i and i hate to assume but but i just want to know because i'll lay out what i've seen and you'll tell me what is or isn't but like some people frame it as if like they go like jay-z joined up teamed up with the nfl to help them they said he was coming in to like you know revitalize not just their image but the way they they did the game based on on you and then the camp split some people say it felt like jay-z didn't focus enough on the original messaging and focused more on the entertainment side of things and then the other camp goes no colin went off and made his own deal and that's why like jay-z and colin don't see eye to eye and then the other day when he was like at his one of his concerts he said something about you so like like how yeah in the freestyle how do you how do you see the situation where does it land for you yeah um i mean i i think we have very different perspectives as far as how we operate as a people and for me there was a point in time rock nation was trying to recruit me to be represented by them um saw jay-z wear my my jersey on snl um so i had tried to reach out to him previously in part just say thank you at that point for the support right and wouldn't take a call wouldn't take a meeting which i'm all good like that's strange but okay i i agree but it's strange to me because you're wearing my jersey that's the only reason i'm saying that yeah yeah that's strange but okay and your organization is trying to recruit right right but i don't know what people have going on so i'm i i'm not asking for anything right um now on the back of that uh he asked me to come on stage take a knee while he performed story of oj I was like that's weird you won't get on a call with me but like you want me to do this I was like no but would love to sit down if you have time my man you're like no thanks I'll need to be a prop yeah I'm good it's all good right but where where the real issue came about was I believe he has started negotiating with the NFL in 2018 um during that time period the nfl had built up an organization called the players coalition to be able to end the protests in the nfl right and explicitly explicitly giving them a payout to be able to end the protest they came to an agreement the next week they stopped protesting yeah um eric reed kenny stills were part of those meetings they were like we're not we are not doing that they've been protesting um with me from the beginning so there was a split there and part of what came in advance of that deal was a player's owners meeting where within that meeting it's It's Roger Goodell.

2:18:07It's Jed York and Bob Craft and Terry Pagula, Stephen Ross, like all of the decision makers within the NFL. And Terry Pagula during that meeting was like, we need a black face to help us lead this. Now, I've never heard anyone explicitly say it that way. like we need a black face to put out in front and they tried that with the players coalition that wasn't successful and jay-z was the the 2.0 version of that in my opinion and part of that is during the grievance process we have all the documents we have the discovery like we have the insight of what was actually happening during that process um prior to me coming to a settlement with them they had also offered me that position damn and it's like we're going to continue blackballing you but will you be the face of our social justice initiatives and they offered this to me as well as eric reed and there there was a nice price tag associated with that i can imagine it was like no i'm not i'm i'm not going to do that eric was in agreement we're not doing that like we're not selling people out and you're also not going to take our careers away while we're fighting for black people and then be like be the face of the thing that says we support black people was not actually supporting yeah that's exactly but he did that deal and then during that process this is where I just, I looked at it as very disingenuous, is he did an interview with Andrew Bean, I believe the Wall Street Journal.

2:20:05During that interview was asked, like, have you spoken to Colin about the deal that you just signed? And he said, no. The next day I get a call or I get a text. hey can you get on a call from jay-z i'm like all right so something must have happened because it's been a couple years or a few years at this point that we've i've been trying to have a conversation you want to get on the phone all of a sudden it's like hey we need to get on a call during that shares i i did a deal with the nfl i was like well can you share like details of what it is weren't a whole lot of details at that point um i was like i i completely disagree with what you're doing and you're you're selling the culture out to people who do not care about the culture huh and he was like well the the ink is dry i was like well that's if that's how you feel just keep my name out of it and that was that was my one ask keep my name out of it and the press conference the the next day was we're doing the deal we're past kneeling we shouldn't be talking about colin we're moving on to action as if action hadn't been happening for years um and on the back of that what we saw was and we got direct calls on this like they had been putting out hit pieces on us and trying to plant stories.

2:21:59Oh, he's already had a job. He doesn't want to play. And we had journalists call us and be like, hey, we got these calls from Roc Nation. Like, is this true? Like, what's that? It's like, no, absolutely. That's not true. So a bunch of them came back and were like, oh, well, we're not going to run those pieces. And then it was like, oh, well, we're going to run an ownership story. Like maybe he'll become an owner or whatever. So it pivoted. But we saw a definitive effort to try to disparage me in that process. Like we got the calls. And for me, that's where it's like, I can disagree with what you do, but I'm not going to maliciously go out there and try to derail what you're doing.

2:22:53Home align you. Yeah. Yeah, like that's a different type of action. I don't care to partake in. Man, your life, the craziest part of it is that it's not even finished. Yep. It's already like multiple movies. Yep. I know you've already made one. You talk about that in the book with Ava DuVernay. The one thing I'll say to you is honestly, thank you. Thank you for how you've shared your story. and I genuinely hope everyone reads the book before they say anything. Just before they say anything because then you see like every shadow and every light you see, every complexity, every grain, every wrinkle, every detail.

2:23:33Then have your opinion. But like you've written a really beautiful book and you've told a really wonderful story. I think it's nuanced. I think it's layered. I don't think you can just come out with like one flat idea. You know, I loved your parents. I also felt bad for them. I felt bad for you. I enjoyed parts of the NFL the parts I got angry about you know thought about justice thought about the system and the biggest shout out I have to give yo oh that's the book there it is there it is I'll hold that up I'll hold that up this right here man this let me tell you something biggest shout out because the I think a lot of the time the shout out won't be said because it isn't mentioned as clearly as it is here 100 % the lady in your life yeah let me tell you something man exceptional Let me tell you something.

2:24:19Nessa, your wife, the way you talk about her in this book, she is one of the structural walls in the house that is Colin Kaepernick. You talk about her in the foundation of your program. You talk about her in helping you recover and looking at what you need to do to your body. You talk about what she's done for your mind. You talk about how she supported you when the whole world was against you. You talk about how you strategize together, how you live together, how you laugh together. you talk about the birth of your child and how stressful that was how terrifying it was how painful it was I think a story that many couples many women many men can relate to you know almost losing a newborn child but man the fact that you don't tell the story as if it is only yours you just tell it from your perspective is honestly one of the goaded things I've ever seen anybody do in their book so shout out to Nessa because I know this isn't without her and it's amazing that you've told the story so that she's not a footnote that people then have to try and find later on in life, man.

2:25:16Thank you for that. Because Nessa is exceptional. And it's one of the things that I think goes underappreciated. Yeah. Is when we think of, for me, when I think historically. Oh, yeah. Coretta Scott King? Come on. When we think about Coretta. Oh, Winnie Mandela. You name it. You can just keep going down a list. Exactly. and all of the women that have been leaders in their own right. Yeah. Yeah. And for me, one of the special moments that we had early on is we got to spend time with Lani Ali. Wow. And she was giving us insight in preparation for what was to come. Wow. And how we should be thinking about it.

2:26:03And that was from her own lived experience. She's phenomenally strong. and when I think about what Nessa has done what she's accomplished in her own right and how she has supported me I wouldn't be sitting here today in this way if it was not for her yeah you can feel that so I appreciate you calling that out oh man we appreciate you this has been amazing Colin thank you so much thanks to your team for making the time taking the time I don't think it was an of course this has been amazing of course for real man thank you so much of course of course of course and as we would say back home you're welcome you are welcome to join us anytime I appreciate that genuinely brother thank you so much for listening this has been a pleasure true enjoyment thank you this segment is brought to you by YouTube Premium you know I've been thinking about how some of the most interesting ideas I come across aren't from conversations that I'm a part of but it's the ones that I overhear or I stumble into and no I'm not talking about gossip that's a different thing I enjoy.

2:27:10You know what I mean? Sometimes someone is talking about something and suddenly I'm carrying that idea with me for the rest of the day. You know what I mean, right? It's one of the things I love about YouTube. There's always something happening there. Interviews, podcasts, documentaries, people who've spent years going deep on a single topic. Sometimes you're searching for something specific. Other times, you just land on an idea you hadn't even considered before, and it tends to stick. I'll hear something while I'm getting ready or walking somewhere, and then later on, I'll find myself saying, hey, I actually heard this thing today.

2:27:52I'm like, oh, yeah, that's from YouTube. It turns into a conversation somewhere else. Now I'm sharing it with another human being, but I don't always want to be tied to a screen, right? Sometimes you need the video, of course. But a lot of the time, especially with interviews, podcasts, documentaries, it can start as something you watch and then you continue as something you just listen to. And that's great. That's what I like about YouTube Premium. Background play means it doesn't just stop when the screen does. So you can start something over breakfast and then you lock your phone, put it in your pocket and keep listening as you go.

2:28:32And let's be honest, that feels closer to how life actually works. We don't really get long, uninterrupted stretches of time to sit down and learn. That's not a real thing. It's more like 12 minutes here, 20 minutes there, and now I have a PhD, you know? And I don't know. I like that curiosity doesn't have to wait for the right moment. YouTube gives you access to all these people and ideas. YouTube Premium lets them move through the day with you. If you like YouTube, let me tell you, you'll love YouTube Premium. Visit youtube.com slash premium to sign up now for your free trial. Trial eligibility varies.

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2:29:19What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Parduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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