Don Lemon: The Cost of Candor

27:33I'll give you an exclusive. Go. The newer iteration, the newer the iteration of the iPhone, the harder it is to get into it. They can't get into my phone. Well, there you go. Did they ask you for the password? Initially, they had to ask me. Did they try to make you look at your phone? I've always wondered if they don't. I don't have it. No, but I'm saying, because I'm saying like, I wonder, because there's a weird thing. I There's a If I understand American law correctly Apparently They cannot force you To give them your password They can ask you Yeah But they still can't force you Yeah But if it's fingerprint Or face Then you do have to Do it I don't know about that And I don't know I don't understand What the difference is I don't know about that I'll look it up now But I know they can't I promise you I promise you Where are you going to look it up My man On your phone I got you bro On your iPhone Don't even worry Chubb, what's your password?

28:30I got you. Don't even worry. I got you. I got you. I got you. There's something. Let me see. Why didn't you hold it up to your face? Yeah. No, it unlocked when I looked at it. I've got nothing to hide. Don't worry about it. You've got nothing to hide. Ah, me. The last thing I want is anyone taking my phone. What are they going to find? Yes, yes. Oh, where's your phone? Eugene, you cannot get prosecuted. In fact, I'm even pitching. Dick pics, Eugene. That's what I was going to say. I'm even pitching for penis portraits, as you call them. Or butt shots.

29:05I don't judge. I don't judge. I don't judge. I don't know who's the top and who's the bottom. And it's not my business. I don't care. Let's see here. I'll find it. Or a side. You could be a side. You've just literally done what we do to each other all the time. I know it sounds so bad. Is this what it sounds like when we do it? Wait, did you say aside? Yeah, aside. You don't know what aside is? No, I've never heard of that. It's just like there's no top or bottom. It's your aside. That's a thing? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I knew there was top and bottom. I didn't know that there was aside.

29:39There's aside. Huh. Wait, you said aside does what? Aside just kind of lays there on the side like you're, you know, or you take care of yourself or each other. Wow. I would have gone with the middle. I don't know why they went with aside. It's called aside. But aside is a better name. Yeah. You know why? it evokes an image in your head yeah but i mean if you have top bottom you want a side you don't want to be like in the middle i don't know in between i guess so but i that's that's what i would have thought so while you're looking let me tell you the thing so uh i did not realize it until yesterday that they had filed secretly um a subpoena for my youtube channel to get my subscribers and members of subscribers names addresses and phone numbers and the judge said no guys what are we this judge said no why would they why would they want that either they want it to kill my business to intimidate me or to intimidate people who watch me it's crazy or to create a list did you find it what are we doing i found it so the legality of Compelled unlocking hinges on protections Against unreasonable searches Fourth amendment and self-incrimination Fifth amendment So passcodes and pins The fifth amendment generally protects your testimonial acts Okay So courts across the country widely agree That the government cannot force you To hand over a passcode or a pin As doing so forces you to reveal The contents of your own mind Right That's the key thing So you're testifying against yourself By giving your password however the law regarding biometric locks is highly fractured biometrics are generally treated as physical evidence like dna swabs or a lineup meaning some courts have ruled that police can physically force you to unlock your phone using your face or your thumb yeah because they're saying that's not the contents of your mind you're not testifying against it's essentially like putting your fingerprints i think you can fight that because i would say i would say i had to think about this before when i looked at the phone i had to think about what depends on the court depends on the court but it's literally so remember when people were getting detained at the border there was a moment where it was like a real flare-up yeah the message they gave everyone was hey make sure you don't have face id and touch id and everything on your phone make sure your phone just uses a passcode because they can't force you to give them a passcode interesting so i was surprised that they didn't just be like yo don look here hey don hey don can i ask you can i ask you a question i don't think they even had a warrant yet when they took it damn four months so what have you are there some people that you now haven't spoken to for four months and you're happy about it come on bro what a great excuse to get people out of your life seriously i wanted to get back to you do you know what happened to my phone but it's true that did it happened because the phone is, what is it called?

32:39iOS. Yeah. And some of the text messages come through the iOS system rather than just your phone number. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't get every single text I haven't gotten. And sometimes I'll be sitting in front of the computer and something, I was like, where did this come from? Exactly. India. Exactly. Nigeria.

33:01Don't think we forgot, no? Forgot what? The business idea. Okay, so my pitch was pretty simple. It's a really simple idea. Business or societal proposal. If our homes are as empty as they are, and not in like a negative way, it's just most people, you wake up in the morning, you leave the house to go to work, you only come back in the evening. Your house was empty for the entire day. The main reason you don't want somebody in your home is because you think they're going to break things, change things, steal things, smell up the place, whatever it is. Use up your air conditioning All of this But imagine if we could find a way To pair each other up With your perfect house partner Someone who lives exactly like you Exactly like you And there's got to be somebody Because we're not that interesting or unique as people There's got to be somebody who has the same vibes Your lifestyle Tinder match They use your colognes They would sort of dress like you You know what I mean You but you're not there Yes, you but they work night shift Opposite shift of you Opposite shift of you And so then whenever like You leave your house They come in They come in And whenever you come back They leave And then you guys You get to like Help each other Pay And then homes are not Sitting empty And you need less housing Because right now We have a housing crisis But if you think about it Most housing is sitting empty The whole day And then you just have Your perfect partner That's coming in But if I have a girlfriend Do they talk to her While I'm not there Or No no no Where do we draw the line here We'll have to figure this out Is what I'm saying So you have to live alone Because that sounds like pretty much every marriage I know is what you're saying.

34:37No, not everyone has someone who just stays in their house. Your girlfriend is not always just at your house. That's a... Is your girlfriend always at your house?

34:51Are you... Sometimes are you like, okay, I need a break. Do I say that, Trevor? That sometimes I need a break? But you know what? when you said people need a break i do think that couples need a break that way sometimes sometimes need definitely sometimes i'll go in the guest room and snooze watch tv and sleep in there and and maybe one of the dogs will follow me in but and i get a great actually can i ask you a question though how so how does your husband respond to this at first he was weird about it and i said but here's the thing trevor i it took me i didn't get married until i was in my 50s Wow So I had been You're over 50 That's what I was saying wow to No no Don I'm being for real You need to come back home Should I tell my age?

35:37If we walked in the streets together now The three of us I'm not even guessing If we walked together in the streets People would not go Why are they with that old guy? No way They would just be like your friend They might even say your brother to me They'd be like I think he's your brother And I would go I try to do your accent But I can't That is my brother I don't know, should I tell my age here? I don't know. You can tell your age. I'm 60. I turned 60 this year. No way. Yeah. Man. Don, you look good. Thank you. Like, you look good, good. Thank you. Like, I'm not a side, but I'm just saying, man.

36:13I was going to say. I would. I'm not a side, but Don, yo, you look good. I'm Mary Trevor. Back off. Thank you. I thank you. I appreciate that. It's weird to say that because I don't feel that at all. No, no, no. You look at, you look at the Pharrell of broadcasters. How? I'm a Pharrell caster. What? Look at your, look at your skin. Look at your, like everything. Not a stitch of makeup. That's one thing I do not miss about corporate. The makeup was terrible. Oh my God. The makeup was terrible. Cake. Isn't it? It cakes your skin. And you don't need it. It cakes your skin, bro. Yeah. So you tell your husband, like, look, after how many years of being together do you say, I think sometimes we needed a timeout.

36:55I don't really say I need a timeout. What did you say? I just go in the guest room. I'm like, ah, I need, I need. But the first time it happened, Don. Oh, he's like, you're not sleeping in here with us. I'm like, I'm right next door. Like, relax. And then I've said, I'm just going to go and watch TV for a little bit. And then you have to like ease in. And then he fell asleep. And then I didn't. And sometimes I would wake up before he woke up and go in. This is actually great. I'm taking notes for sure. People that marry each other and live together, they first start by dating, right? Yeah. Yeah.

37:23They hang out and then sleepovers happen. Then stayovers happen. And the person goes, but I think I like having you around. Let's do this thing every day. How do we go from I'll see you on a Tuesday, I'll see you the whole week, I'll see you the whole year to I think I need three days or two hours apart from you? I charge$130 an hour. Come on. Let me tell you. I've had lots of therapy every week sometimes. How do you go from that? I think that's a choice. And I think whatever works for whatever relationship that relationship you're in. I told him, I'm like, I'm not good with sleeping in the same bed with someone.

38:00I just, I don't sleep well. When you started dating or now when you're married? Always. And I just said, I have been single for so long and able to walk into my house and just do, if I want to like drop my underwear at the door, I don't do that. But I, you know, I was just alone for so long. I think I just got used to it. Also, it's weird because I am a loner. People think like, I'm this extrovert. I'm a sort of extrovert, introvert. I don't know what you call that. But I actually really love being by myself. And that doesn't mean I love my husband any less and I don't want to be married to him.

38:33But I love, I'm very content being alone. People don't understand that. Then how did you make that transition then? Because if you like being alone, you don't mind your own company, this is the guy that you chose. You're like, let's do this thing. Whose idea was living together? Because there's always one person that goes, this would be nice. every day we're like i love ice cream every day my fee is going up to 150 uh i think he decided i mean we're like lesbians like the third date it was he like moved in it was like he had a moving truck no um he kind of decided i would come up and remember i worked nights and i would come home like after midnight because i worked late at cnn i had the 10 to usually midnight hour and first couple times i'd come home and he'd be on my couch i'm like oh hey all right then i was like i guess i can't you know i guess it's us because what if i had invited somebody over um and i was like how'd you get it he goes out of the doorman it was fine i mean because we had he had been coming over the doorman knew him or whatever and then he started bringing his laundry i was like i said you really like me because i have a washer and dryer in my apartment in my condo not because you you know that was a joke but I think he decided that and I'm okay with it I'm okay with that someone has to decide someone has to make the move yeah then at some point you're like I think I'll be in the other room hanging out then he was like buddy no not all the time every once in a while you know like if you're if someone goes on a business trip you're like I get two days it's true though I get two days in the bed by myself yeah you know why so if you are an introvert One of the things people take for granted is that your battery is charged differently to an extrovert.

40:15Right. So extroverts, in broad strokes, are people who gain energy from being with other people. So the more they're with other people, the more energy they get. And the more people that come in, the more energy they get. So if you're with an extrovert at a party, you'll see this. The more people who walk into the room, the more energy they get. The more energy they get. The more energy they get. And if you're an introvert, you'll notice the opposite. When the party only has like 10 people You're good 15, 20, 25, 30, 45 And then you're like When are we going? When are we going home? I'm ready, I'm ready The extroverts like the party just started So when you're an introvert Even if you are with your person Sometimes you just need to be by yourself To recharge It's not about the other person You just want to recharge yourself And then come back to being with other people so I can completely relate to that and you know what complicates it if you're in the public eye and you're an introvert because everyone people are like oh people assume oh my god hey don hi hi can I get a picture can we do a selfie and you're like yeah yeah so when you get home yeah that's draining you the whole time it's draining you the whole time so then you're like okay I just want to sit on the couch and if someone comes to sit next to you it's okay but then you want like It would be great just to have my space so that I can...

41:33Yeah. Yeah. Because we have to be on sometimes. Yes. We have to be on. What's the perfect match for the type of personalities that you guys described? An introvert, extrovert. What would be the perfect personality to be around? I think you adapt. It's not really a perfect personality. You just have to adapt. Because if you have someone, both of you are the same thing. I don't know. Maybe that makes you closer, at least physically. Yeah. but I don't know. I just think it's, I don't know. Is your husband an extrovert? It's weird. Yeah. I think he doesn't realize he's an extrovert. Yeah. He made friends with the doorman.

42:10Yeah. That's true actually. My husband is a little bit more sociable than I am, but I have a very large group of friends that we hang out with in the city and my friends have become his friends. And so I find that he likes to entertain more. He likes to go to dinner. And I would be like, I'm like, Uber Eats? Seamless? Like, what are we going to do tonight? Huh? Your brother. He takes me out. Yeah. Eugene forces me to go out. That's what happened. A lot of my friends. At the Grammys. They were like, let's go to this party. I'm like, okay, I'll go. And look what happened. We got arrested. Look at what happened.

42:49Look at what happened. I keep telling you, this is why we don't go outside. We're going to get arrested, bro. Stay your ass at home. I keep telling you. All my extrovert friends, I'm like, where are we going? Where are we going? Eugene's like, come on. Are we ordering in again? Come on. Let's eat out. It's you. It's Lawrence. Everyone, let's go out. Come on. That's how you go to jail, bro. If Nelson Mandela got Uber Eats, he would have never went to Robben Island. When did they catch Nelson Mandela? Where was Nelson Mandela? Driving. Outside. 27 years in prison. If that man got Uber Eats, he would have been comfortable in his house.

43:22He wouldn't be going to the restaurant and trying to find some sustenance. Enjoying himself. Ah, what a great time I'm having. Ah, ah, let's be afraid to gather. He'd be at home enjoying himself. 27 years, Eugene. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

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45:16Can I ask you something? Yeah, I know this is not my show. I'm going to ask you a question. Oscar, what do you mean? I'm joking. This is literally your show. Do whatever you want. Do you miss being in corporate media? Not at all. Not at all. You were surprised that I said that too. No, no, no. I understand why you're not. I was surprised that you said you don't miss the, but then I think you answered my question when you followed up. What I was asking is, do you miss the job? I didn't even think of it as corporate media. I was asking if you missed the job because I think this applies to everyone, regardless of whether they were on TV or radio or anything public facing, we take for granted how much the thing we do slowly becomes who we think we are, right?

45:59Someone, and people say this with such confidence. You go, hey, my name is Mike. Hi, Mike. Tell me about yourself. Well, I'm a doctor. It's amazing how that's the first thing people lead with. I am what I do, you know? And then if you take that away from them, all of a sudden they don't have an I am anymore. And people will sometimes even lead with that. Hey, Mike, so tell me about yourself. Well, I used to be a doctor. And you're like, wait, what do you mean? Why would you tell me about what you used? I used to be a kindergartner. I don't tell you that. You know what I mean? True. But it's interesting how we've really made what we do who we are.

46:36And I think it's amplified when you're in the public eye because people see you as the job. That's how they identify you. Exactly. So now when you're no longer doing that, they don't know how to place you. So they're like, Don Lemon So like, what are you What are you doing now? Yeah, it's that It's like a, because, and I understand it People are not trying to be assholes People are going, I only know you Through your job So if you do not have your job, I do not know how you exist anymore That's right Because you've never existed to me without the job So I was just asking you if you miss The job itself, like the journalisming But then, you know, as we continue talking I realized you're still doing that.

47:16I'm still doing it. I'm basically doing the same thing, but just with more freedom. Yeah. But speaking of therapy, I had a lot of therapy in my life because I think it's really good for you. Yeah. So I never thought that I was my job ever. That's the best place to be. Never thought that I was my job. And like you, I know that all things, good or bad come to an end. And eventually we will come to an end. See, that's the big one. So when that's over, if the universe has taken care of me for all these umpteenth years, why would i think that it's going to fail me why now moving forward yeah there's the universe guy you can talk to yeah why why now so i i look is it do i like the way i was treated on my way out do i like the in just the you know sort of unfairness of it all no what happened to you on on that because it happened so quickly and it seemed like there was just craziness at cn what actually happened it's the same thing that that's happening to cbs and and others and other networks now um we they they sold the company and the people who came in wanted to make room for more conservative voices i don't have a problem with that but they wanted to make room for maga voices and people who came on who were insurrection deniers and election deniers and just coming on to lie and i thought like this is a journalistic organization there is no i don't believe in the false equivalency there is no there's no equivalence to um someone who's coming on and giving you factual information about what's happening in the country and someone who you know is lying yeah it's like saying that the election was stolen like that is not true we all know that so why are you giving this person so much room because um i think that the what journalism and journalists are supposed to do is inform and educate and give facts so we can still cover a story without giving someone a platform to just come on and directly lie to the american people like Donald Trump would do during his rallies during the first term.

49:15And then people realized, okay, we can't do that because people start to believe it. So I believe that when you, if you have the privilege of going on to a CNN or any network or daily show, it is a privilege. It's not a right. You don't have a right to go there. So you should respect the platform and the people enough to be honest with them and tell the truth. So anyway, they wanted to make more room and move the network to the right. And I don't believe news is right or left, it just is. And so I would challenge conservatives who came online, they did not like it. And so what I believe in my opinion is that they were coming up with a predicate to get rid of me.

49:57So they moved me to the morning. So they came up with this idea, this is great for the mornings or whatever. And then from there, it just sort of, people think that I got fired for something that I said about Nikki Haley, but that was not it. I had an interview with Vivek Ramaswamy on the morning show. I didn't even know he was coming on. It was not my guest. It was like my co-anchor's guest. And I was like, when they said, Vivek Ramaswamy's coming, I'm like, okay, that's Papi's guest, not my business. And so he came on and he started lying about things. And I'm like sitting there going, black people got their rights because of the NRA, because the NRA fought for black people's rights during the Civil War.

50:40This is what he was saying? And I was like, bro, none of this shit is true. And nobody was checking him. And I said, that is not true. And he goes, we have to be able to have these conversations. I said, yeah, if the conversation is true, you have to be honest on both sides. The NRA wasn't even around for the Civil War. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Four days later, I was gone. and then they rushed a press conference to announce charles barkley and gail king's show because they had gotten rid of their only black anchor and primetime anchor you know what's always fascinated me is why in america the like let's call them whatever people want to call them you know mainstream slash whatever organizations why they always want to pander to a group that cares not to pander to them in any way shape or form so i don't remember fox news ever going on a binge where they were like we need to get as many liberal people on this network as possible or or news max or any of them and fox is the most profitable but that's what i mean most profitable news channel but i don't understand that they've never once gone ah we don't have enough of these voice let's get them on it doesn't work yeah but but why does that happen because the people who own the companies think like that they are right wing many of them are MAGA the ones who are buying the companies now no that makes sense are Donald Trump supporters there was a uh Ellison who owns Paramount yeah no there was a Donald Trump appreciation dinner during the White House Correspondents Dinner so they are very transparent about it yeah but yet on the other side when you are centrist or liberal you're like oh I can't do that you know it's a conflict of interest they don't give a shit about that no they don't no they're living their dream i will say i was but that but that's the thing i don't miss is like so i i think i think that's where eugene and i talk about this all the time we are in an interesting age of media where the the structures that people have have have ordained for so long are going to fall apart because they don't present people with anything real anymore it all feels like a facsimile of real it feels like it's like it's manufactured it feels like it's manicured it feels like it's you know so put on yeah so so you you find yourself watching the news going is this the news is this what's happening is this what's actually going on is this you know what i mean yeah and if you if you look at it through any lens news sports coverage you know documentaries whatever you it's interesting to see how the ones that are actually really experiencing growth are the ones that just feel authentic whether or not you're for them is irrelevant yeah but the authenticity is is is what's and that's what's driving independent media right now is the authenticity but your facsimile is a very good word it's almost like stepford wives that's exactly what it is into it and you're like you just start watching that's exactly what that's how i feel sometimes now when i'll watch in the occasions the moments when i'll watch the news the real news no like CNN or any of those yeah it'll be like it's almost like welcome we're going to talk about a story now and we have one guest hello what what is happening oh many people have been killed oh wow well we have someone else who says the opposite many people have not been killed oh what do you think they have been killed what do you think they have not been killed Well, that's all we have time for.

54:11Now we have time for our next story. And you're sitting there going, wait, so what happened? Yeah, what happened? So what happened? Nothing. Or it's this. I can't stand you. Fuck you. And it's like fighting around the table. And you're like, what is being accomplished here? I hate that. You're right. That's what's happening. It's just like. The authenticity is being in independent media or being an independent journalist. I don't miss that because before, you know, my show was a little bit different because I sort of relaxed. I was the last person. I was 10 o 'clock at night. But no one has conversations like that.

54:46No one sits around in cocktail dresses and suits with neckties on. And they're like, now we're going to have a conversation right now. Trevor, how are you? Eugene, what do you think? Eugene? Right? But stand by. I almost answered you. Stand by. I was like, do you want to know what I think? I'm going to bring someone in and we're going to have, we're going to FaceTime with Rob. Rob, you are standing there in the bar that we were talking about these guys. Hey, what's going on, Rob? Like who talks like that? And so I think people, I think also COVID changed us. It actually did, man. Because people got used to seeing people in a natural environment and they're like, oh, I kind of like this.

55:33So I do my show from, I have like a little studio. I got rid of my dining room tables, just like this where my dining room once was. Yeah. And I was like, why don't I set it up in my dining room? And so that's where I do the show. And I come on, I'm like, hey, everybody. So glad you're with us today. Ah, what am I gonna talk about? Okay. You do it COVID style. Yeah. And you just go, ah, what am I gonna talk about? This guy needs to come back. I could be doing this. We could talk about this, but this is what's on my mind right now. This was our topic the whole of yesterday. You see what I'm talking about?

56:03The whole of yesterday is what we spoke about. There's no, the thing is, is that there is no, I mean, I have a plan, but there is, I'm not trying to get anything out of it. I'm not trying to make sure that we keep an audience minute by minute. There's no agenda. The only agenda is to tell the truth and to engage with people. I know. Yeah. This is a topic the whole day, because we said when people stop making a show, that's when the show gets made. That's it. You usually see it with car reviewers on YouTube. Yeah. When a manufacturer launches a certain model, it's all about the technical stuff, the car.

56:40It's what they're selling you. They're selling you. But when a reviewer gets hold of it and says, I don't like this, but I love this and I hate that and I love that, that actually gets more traction and makes you go, do I want the car or don't I want the car? Yeah. And with people like you who have authority and obviously experience in what you do, when you sit down and go, let's just figure it out together. Yeah. That makes the conversation much more interesting. Yes. I agree. And the thing is, there's one thing that I'm not a fan of. Being a side? Independent media. Sorry, sorry. You don't know.

57:16Where's my phone? Tim, can I get a hall pass? I'm going to show this over or something. You're lucky he doesn't have his phone. You were so close to Cindy. John had his phone. What I'm not a fan of is feeling like I have to sell something because we don't have large corporate sponsorships. I would like to not have to go, and here's a word from our sponsors. I don't like that. That's not my favorite part. I swear, it's like you... You were there. We have to sell it. But it's like you... Like you were there. I was having this comment literally yesterday, and I was saying this to Eugene, my friend Ryan.

57:58We're all hanging out there. and i said this is what people don't even understand in politics right now one of the main reasons donald trump has done so well and continues to win people i mean now he's losing them because of he always lose it's funny trump always wins people with his rhetoric and loses people with his actions yeah you know because the same policy the same thing happened during covet is like people he wins the election and then when you're like when he has to run the country people like what is happening and then it all goes down and then he comes in with rhetoric people love it when he actually runs the country people like this is terrible yeah but the thing people don't realize is many politicians he's authentic he's not honest there's a difference right right but he's authentic he'll come out and he'll say to you i'm supposed to read from the teleprompter there it is teleprompter i should read it i should read it should you want me to read i don't want to read i gotta read it they want me to read it i could read it i could read but i don't want to

58:57Acetaminifin? Yeah, but boy, that's a tough word. That's a tough word. Can you say it? I get it. A lot of people can't say it. That thing. Authenticity. Politicians, let's just call it mainstream or legacy in any field, has taken for granted how much authenticity has been stripped from our society. amen oh my god and and and you know what this is this is what happens we we live in cycles in life right Things will often start off as authentic. Once they achieve critical acclaim or success, they then start to become parodies of themselves because they're trying to maintain what they now have. Yeah.

59:42Right? So you have like a dating show or you have like Survivor, let's say. I would argue like the first season of Survivor was the only like real season of Survivor. Because people didn't know what Survivor was supposed to be. Big Brother theme, yeah. It was like, what is this thing? And then it was Richard, right? remember the first like bad villainy guy who like he was like i'm i'm just gonna break it yeah i'm gonna break this game everyone else was trying to do the real thing and richard was like no i'm gonna screw this over but people watched that and then went oh that's what we need to do and survivor itself went yeah this is what needs to be done so now when you watch survivor people come in as a villain but you're like no that's you're not that's not authentic anymore and so then what happens is I didn't even know it was still on the air oh yeah it's still going yeah it's still going strong but it starts to become it doesn't have the the cultural cachet that it once had the same thing goes for dating shows the first version of it will be authentic people are like what is that same thing for reality shows the first version is just a camera crew comes in your house they start filming you get comfortable and you start having your real disputes you have your you know like you even see you start living your life the Hulk Hogan documentary you see him saying Hogan knows we didn't realize how invasive this would be.

1:00:56But they were having real fights in front of the camera. With Linda, yeah. But now when people do a reality show, it's scripted. Staged. They even like, yeah, they stage the fights. Yeah. That strips away. What starts happening? The next generation of authentic comes. So then you end up with like dating shows like Pop the Balloon. You know that Pop the Balloon show? Yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah, but why? Because it was so much more authentic. Yeah. These people didn't look like they'd done any media training. They didn't give us any spiel. someone just walked in and was just like, hey, my name's Brad.

1:01:29That's like bad for TV if you think about it. You'd be like, no, no, no. Don't all pop your balloons at once. If that show had a showrunner. Yes. It would say, don't. Then we'd be like, okay. Wait. And your story is this. Yes. And then you're going to pop a balloon when this happens. And you're going to pop a balloon when this happens. No. Sometimes a person will walk in, not even speak. Like none of these. Yeah. that's and why do people love it it's authentic yeah you know what i mean and i think we take for granted how authenticity authenticity has been robbed of like we're yearning for it in society everything is produced over overly produced and you're right and then the show whatever it is becomes a parody of itself there you go right it becomes the snl skit of itself yeah why do people love hot wings on the internet it's not because celebrities are eating spicy hot wings it's because them eating the hot wing is the one thing they can't fake now yeah it's hard to learn so if they go to a late night show and it's like tell me about the time you went on vacation oh i can't believe you asked me that story that i told you about before we came out in front of the cameras so what happened was give the person a spicy hot wing that they cannot tolerate as we say back home the cool is gone you know what i mean we saw idris elbert choke This is like the greatest action star of our lifetime.

1:02:49And he's... But you know what happened? We loved him more after that. Yeah. We didn't go like, Idris can't be an action star. We're like, yo, we roll with you even harder now. Let me tell you, people love a hot mess. And people would ask me, and I don't know how you feel about Wendy Williams. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wendy Williams is the biggest win-ass in the band. I love Wendy. And people loved her. How you doing? How you doing? How you doing? People, she is missed on daytime television. Her show would, I believe, still be a success. Yes. And especially if advertisers were afraid of her, the O &O, the stations around the country were afraid of her because they didn't know what she was going to say.

1:03:25And people, oh my God, with your accent. She was so authentic and that was her superpower. Yes. And I missed that on television. There's hardly any, if any, television show or talk show that's like that. But can I tell you, here's the irony, and this is what most people don't realize, especially when it comes to media. The great irony is the cycle. Something becomes popular. Advertisers wish to partake in it. The advertisers want to partake in it because it's popular. When they partake in it, they now wish to put guardrails on it because they are worried about how they will be perceived. Not realizing that no one really cares.

1:04:05Nobody cares. No one cares about a brand as much as a brand cares about a brand. They think the streets are like, oh, I saw your ad on that. No, no one really cares. They start putting guardrails on the thing. They put so many guardrails that the thing loses all of its authenticity and popularity. It starts to dwindle. And then they pull out. They go like, sorry, Don, it's not performing anymore. It's not performing, yes. And you're like, you made me stop being me. And now the thing failed and now you're pulling out. And they're like, yeah, sorry, we're going for this new thing. You know, people are loving it.

1:04:38Watch what's going to happen to it. Just give it time. And they're so, you're right, they're so dumb. Like there was an advertiser who my sales guy called and said, you know, this advertiser is really nervous about your arrest and whatever. I said, how many more people are watching us because of that arrest? Like nobody cares, but you, no one cares. And in this environment now, it used to be 15 minutes of fame. It's 15 seconds. Oh yeah. The news cycle, it's like a story goes in and then you're like, this is the biggest thing. And then Donald Trump tweets something. You're like, oh, forget about that.

1:05:08This is the biggest thing. By the way, now that you bring that up, did you guys at CNN ever know that he was like playing you guys like puppets? Did you ever figure it out at some point? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, because there was a thing. I think, honestly, they maybe knew somewhere in the beginning, but it was good for business. Do you remember Les Moonves? He goes, you know, Trump is bad for the country, but he's good for business. He did say that. Jeff Zucker said Donald Trump is many things. but one thing I'll tell you is he's a one man ratings wrecking ball machine. Same with the, I think it was Roger Ailes who called Trump and was like, yo man, why aren't you coming on the, when Fox was fighting with Trump, Roger Ailes was phoning Trump and he's like, yo, I know we're beefing, but come on the show, man.

1:05:53Let me tell you something, Donald Trump is a media genius. Yeah. I got a story about that, but I tell you, Jeff got hip to it really early and then, but he never told us what to say. We did not. The only thing that he would tell us is when we were doing interviews, when he allowed us to do interviews, just let him talk and fact check. And you can ask him anything. It's all in the way you ask the question. So you can say, Trevor, what is wrong with your hair? Or you can go, Trevor, you have a really nice head of hair. What's going on? Did you change something? Very similar question, right? Or you compliment him before.

1:06:32You're a marketing genius. Now, this one thing I don't understand because it didn't quite go over well with your supporters. What happened? Well, you know, so - And then you're in. And then you're in. What's the story? Morning glory. The story, what did you say again? What were you asking? We were talking about marketing genius. Oh, marketing genius. How I knew Donald Trump was gonna win in 2016. Yeah. This was back in the day when I got newspapers delivered to my door. Now everything's online. I prefer holding newspaper, but then it becomes too much. So I would get the Washington Post, the New York Times.

1:07:10Sometimes they would send me just for fun, the company, like the New York Post, all of it. So I opened these newspapers and Donald Trump is on the front page. And then I opened the real estate section. Donald Trump is in the real estate section. Then I opened the editorial section. There's Donald Trump. And then whatever. And I just, I was like, oh, and I was like, well, where is Hillary Clinton? Right? And I said, this man is going to win. And Tim said, why? I said, because he's everywhere. And he's sitting, who knows, in his bed, on a toilet or whatever, calling into morning shows. Right. He didn't come in.

1:07:44He just calls in. Do you know why he did it like that? Because he didn't have to go in, but he could talk to everybody. No, it's genius. Why? The reason Donald Trump did it like that is because he liked how it made him seem like the Wizard of Oz. Oh, yeah. So when Donald Trump would phone into a news show, but wouldn't be there, all the people on the show would just have to like sit there. And it has the same effect of speaking to this like omnipotent power. So they all sit on the couch. You see them on Fox all the time. They sit on the couch. Yeah. And they go, so Mr. President. Yes. Yes. So Mr.

1:08:19President, tell us. And then you just see the picture, that like smoldering picture of his. Yeah. And then he just talks. And everyone just has to stare at the picture. and in those moments you don't realize subconsciously you are saying that this person is so important they do not have to be here but we have to listen to everything they say yeah and he knew the power of it that's something i never even thought about yeah he knew the power but he knew it on a media level he's genius but he knew the power of it he also knew that he could be everywhere everything everywhere all at once right he could be everywhere on and on every show And look, I think that there, in modern history, in recent times, there's never been anyone more qualified to be president than Hillary Clinton, okay?

1:09:04However, I don't believe that whatever media strategy she has or strategists, that I think that they served her wrong because she would pick and choose and I'm going to do this. And I'm like, you should be all over the place. What are you guys doing? Yeah, but so here's the thing to what Eugene said and what we were saying. when you stop trying to do the thing that's when you will do the thing that's when you do have you noticed how people in divorce will finally become themselves it's only when people are breaking up with each other that they'll finally tell the other person the truth of who they are and all of a sudden you'll say i never i never liked sleeping in the same bed i just want to sleep in my own room and yeah and i i don't want to go on vacations to this place and then the person goes wait when were you going to tell me this yeah when you stop trying to do the thing ironically that's often when you'll do the thing is that what happened with the same thing goes if you want to see arguably the best just like politician qualified human go and watch hillary clinton's interviews after she had lost the election and it was like done yes i think there's one she did on howard stern maybe or you go where was this person yeah i agree yo she is funny smart knowledgeable throws the thing she is fire but you never saw that person on the campaign trail because but this is this is like the gift and the curse i always think in life i argue donald trump won the election because he just like the 2016 election he won it because he's just he was just this crazy, brash, take it to the limit person all the time.

1:10:48But that's also the reason he lost the next election is because he had, there's two different skills in life, right? The ability to be a revolutionary does not mean that you will have the ability to govern. The ability to run for office does not mean you'll have the ability to run in office. To run an office. Yeah, to run an office. Thank you. And so that's what people don't get is like, to your point of Hillary being overqualified, her measured nature, her thinking, all of those things are terrible for running. But part of that comes from the rules are different for women. So she had to, right?

1:11:25Yeah, completely. So part of it comes from that. But if you see her in person, I don't know if she's been on your show. Yeah, when she came to my show, yeah. And she's like, hey, Don, how are you? Fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So good to see you. We've never seen that person. I just want to, we saw her leaving the Kennedy Center there was a function at the Kennedy Center and Tim and I were like, let's get out of here. And then she was coming around the other side and she's like, let's get out of here. She bumped into us and she goes, I just want to go home and take my shoes off and eat my whatever Uber Eats in bed.

1:11:52And we're like, where was that? Because people would have voted for that a million times. But I think she probably felt that she couldn't do that. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. And I think this goes beyond politics. I think in life, one of the greatest challenges you'll face as a human being is knowing when your gift becomes your curse and knowing when your curse becomes your gift. I think of it through the lens of trauma all the time, right? Many of us in these worlds or anywhere can go back to a time in our lives when things were terrible. We might've had a tough time with our parents. We might've had a tough time in our families, in our communities.

1:12:34We can go back and think, man, I remember hating my life or I remember wanting to escape. But then there's a moment where that curse becomes your gift. It makes you see the world differently. It makes you process information in a way that nobody else can. It makes you think faster than other people. You deal with situations. You know what I mean? Like when I think of my life, I'm one of the calmest people in chaos. It's because my life was chaos. I get so calm in chaos and I'm just quiet. And then Tim is a worrier. He's like, oh my gosh, whatever the engagement on the shows i'm like tim it's all it's fine and and like when i got arrested i was like okay and then i kept thinking i'm a journalist so i'm gonna like chronicle this and remember this in case i want to have to talk about it in court or maybe i want to write a book about it and so i was just very calm very calm but now i would go like what was your life like when you were growing up?

1:13:31My life wasn't chaotic. I mean, I'm a, you know, Gen X. And so we did not have very much parental supervision. Those were good old days. I pretty much raised myself, kind of. You know, my grandmother was there and they call it nanny now, but my grandmother was there and she was our babysitter. But then pretty much like when I was, I think I was in junior high school or whatever and we didn't need my grandmother. So my parents would go away and my preteen sisters would be at home by ourselves. And so I would come home from school. My parents, both my parents worked. And so they call them latchkey kids.

1:14:04But the TV raised me. The Brady Bunch, you know. Limited channels and reruns. It's the news review, Zoom. Yes, yes. On the floor alternating, butt cheeks. Yeah. And then at night I watched a lot of television. I think Norman Lear kind of raised me. So my life wasn't very chaotic, but it wasn't as structured as I probably needed when I was growing up. But you see, so that's what I'm saying is without even knowing the details of it, I can go living in that type of life. Most people would argue, as you said, is a little more chaotic, but that means you're going to be calm when there's chaos. But I also, I had to take care of myself.

1:14:48I had to rely on me. That's what I mean. You see? And so then as I got older, I'm like, I got to take care of myself. I got to rely on me. This too shall pass. There you go. And, or maybe something good is going to happen. Not maybe, something good is going to happen out of every situation. There's something good that happens. But I think it's because I always had to rely on myself. I believe in the momentum of rock bottom. I so believe in it. Because once things have gotten worse, I'm like, there's only one way now. In any situation, when the traffic gets really, really bad, I'm like, ha ha, it can't be like this forever.

1:15:18I've already experienced the worst of a thing. So I'm always looking out for those moments where else I feel like when I was younger, I used to avoid those moments of chaos, of feeling helpless or feeling stranded. Now, when that happens, I'm like, you have no idea how much of a jet propulsion that situation is. And I think we, from a generational point of view, we miss the chaos that we knew existed in how people were raising themselves, in how neighbors were involved and grandparents were involved. And we stopped being those people to kids that we have and neighbors that we have, because we kind of miss the drunk uncle.

1:15:55Yeah, we do. The drunk uncle was that guy. Yeah. You don't miss him? You also have one? No, I really miss the drunk uncle. The drunk uncle was the guy. I had a drunk uncle, by the way, who used to drive. I would be in the backseat and he would drive drunk. And my mom said, you cannot go and get in the car with him because I said, you know, I won't say his name, but uncle, whatever. And I said, we went to such and such place and I was in the backseat and we were driving home and I was like this all over the backseat. She goes, do not get in the car with him anymore. That was my drunk uncle And I loved him Yes My drunk uncle Used to take me to a dice game And then when things got hectic He'd be like Hold the money Damn Then I'd be there At the back going Yeah if something happens I'm gone Yeah But nothing ever happened You know And one day We witnessed the stabbing But I still made it home But we stopped being those people There was always The drunk uncle The successful aunt The one who does this The one who does that The neighbor who got out And still comes back For family occasions.

1:16:55But we miss television the way we grew up making television. That's why when someone breaks away from traditional media and goes into this new media, I'm the happiest person in the world seeing them do things the way they should be done. Because ultimately, we're recreating our childhood. We're recreating those TV moments. And I think that's why people are paying attention. And I feel sorry for this younger generation because they're just copying other copies. we are actually doing radio the way we used to love listening to radio but it's called a podcast now we hanging out the way we used to love hanging out because a stranger coming in while we're having a conversation has never been a big deal someone walking in is never going to be like so what do you do it will always be like so he's crazy that idea of people just coming into people's houses you'll be like actually it's not a bad idea that's exactly what we need look you're right about that and speaking of we were talking about corporate media.

1:17:49Sometimes my friends who are in corporate media and they're starting podcasts now and they'll invite me on their shows and they're like, okay, what are we doing in segment two? And here's the script. And I'm like, what are we doing? Were you tapping our phones? This guy was tapping our phones. It's TV. It's a TV podcast. This guy was tapping our phones. What did I say to you? There's no way. This guy was tapping our phones. Exactly what he said. And the thing is, it's like, no. It's like, come on. This guy was tapping our phones, Eugene. And you go, hey, what's up? That's what we do. This guy was tapping our phones, Eugene.

1:18:16but they haven't figured it out because and they're in full makeup and this guy was full garb and I'm like why are you doing that you want people to see you the other way like I did a I sometimes I'll do like updates on my phone in my pajamas I'm like do you wanna do you wanna tell Don what is the criteria for a guest on this on this podcast oh 100 % are you hangable can we hang out with you you think I'm hangable geez oh my gosh Don come on you like me Come on, this guy, this guy, you're playing game. That is number one. There's too many experts. This is the same guy. You know a person who's hangable is somebody who has range.

1:18:56This is somebody who I've seen reports on the most serious incident happening in America. And then somebody who got drunk at New Year's Eve. I knew you were going to say that. On the ball was dropping. Be like, let me tell you. I don't even know. and you see like in that moment genuinely i remember liking you more i went this guy yeah because no because it was it was i was like oh he's a human being yeah and you guess what now everybody's getting drunk on new year's eve before they're like you can't what are you doing i had people were calling you said you have to maintain your stature as a journalist and especially a black man in this society i'm like it's fucking new year's eve nobody's talking policy everybody's sitting at home getting lit and so why can't i and some of it it's like you get into it i'm not stumbling drunk yeah yeah you know it's it's like a little bit like dean martin in the you're enjoying the brat yeah yeah you just you enjoy it so but yeah but you see what i mean now because it was a success because of how viral it went because of everyone goes would you like trying to make a show would you like but now people are going to try to get drunk on new year's eve when covering it for the news because they wish to recreate the same thing that happened.

1:20:12It's, man, life is weird how your gift will just be your curse. It'll just keep on coming back around. If it's not, as you said, authentic, authenticity, if it's not authentic to you, people will sniff it out immediately. Yeah. And they'll say, no, I don't dig this. We'll be right back after this.

1:20:58We'll be right back. is the time for hope. Join the fight at alz.org slash walk. Feeling short on smiles? Does your frown need to be turned upside down? We got the perfect dose of comedy. 30 minutes of Scrubs. Zach Braff, Donald Faison, Sarah Chalk, and the rest of the gang at Sacred Heart are back for a brand new season. We play medical doctors who are besties. Just like in real life. And we'll definitely be up in each other's cases. Scrubs premieres Wednesday on ABC. And stream the next day on Hulu. Side effects may include laughing, cheering, and lots of high fives. I'm no Superman. Hey, Chicagoland.

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1:22:11I have a question for you because I was thinking about this. I thought of it earlier and then it came back to me now. Do you think gay guys have more fun in relationships than straight guys? Absolutely. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm asking the other gay men at the table. He's in now. I'm a gay man at the table, Eugene. Please. Please. What? And Eugene. Why does it hurt so bad? Yes, Eugene. When someone else does it, we do it to each other all the time. Being gay is not an insult, Eugene. I think it's a compliment. That means you're, you know, you're hip and cool. It means you smell good.

1:22:44It means you look good. It means you know what's happening, Eugene. You're an overachiever. Got him. When we started doing this podcast together. It means you wear a jean jacket with a black T-shirt and clear glasses. That's what it means. No, but really, do you think... I'm not gay, but my podcast podcast.

1:23:07You need to leave. What were you saying? No, do I think they have better? Yes, I do. Why do you think that is? Because I think that, you know, I think we have better things to worry about than some performative thing about what marriage or relationship should be like. I actually, look, I'm in sort of a very heteronormative relationship now. We are monogamous, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if we weren't, you know, nobody. So I don't judge couples who have open relationships. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's two men. Men are horny and fun and they like to have fun. And also it's not, sex is not an emotional thing for men.

1:23:47It's like, ah, yeah, that's right, that's okay. But a woman is like, oh my gosh. You know what I mean? Generally. Yes, yes. There are very few women who are like Samantha on Sex and the City. Well, it's actually funny. I think Esther Perel said it beautifully once. She said, we have a misconception that sex is not emotional for men. It's just the emotions happen at a different time for men than for women. That's true. So the sex is emotional for everybody, but it's more when the emotions present themselves that we're not so aware of. Were you gay your whole life? Yeah. So. At a very early age, I knew that I was, but I didn't know quite what it meant sexually.

1:24:25But I also knew that it was something I had to hide. In the South as well? Oh my gosh. Very religious family? Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, it's even worse in the South. Look at what happened in the South now. The Bible Belt and all that. And Louisiana, deep South, you don't get much more Southern than that. Yeah, so I always knew. I always knew it was something that I had to hide. And then the moment I stopped hiding it, that's when I became me. More authentic. When did you come out? I sort of came out to my friends and coworkers. I was out with friends. My mom used to say, how do the gays find each other?

1:25:00Because she had never experienced so many gay men openly in community. And so when she started to come into my circle, she was like, these are really great people. She goes, I think, I got to tell you, Don, I think that gay people are the smartest people in the world. And I was like, okay. Okay. And she said, your homes are beautiful. The way you dress, everybody's smart. Everybody has something interesting to say. She said, that doesn't happen with us. Because I look at my friends and I go, what the hell? Are you stupid? Would you say that? So anyways, it was something that I had to hide until I didn't have to hide it.

1:25:36Who were you most afraid of when you had to come out? Well, I came out, as I was saying, I came out to friends. I was out with friends. And then I left Louisiana because I knew that I had to leave in order to become me. And also, my journalism teacher at LSU told me I would never make it as a journalist. I'm like, okay, whatever. He was right.

1:25:58So I moved to New York City. And I started dating people and coming out. And the people at work knew that I was gay. And then I started gaining success and I moved around the country doing local news. And in those markets, I was out to my friends, but I never talked about it openly, professionally. And then someone said, hey, what you're doing is great. I think you have a book in you. You should write a book. And I started writing a book about my journeys in journalism and life and whatever. And I got to the part where I left Louisiana. And I'm like, oh, am I gonna be the person who lies about it silent?

1:26:37Because there is deception and silence. There's a certain deception and silence. And I said, if I'm gonna be authentic and I have to have the same rules for myself that I have for the guests that come on, like they must be candid. And I said, I just wrote about it. It was like two or three pages in the book. It's like, I had to move for this reason and I needed to become myself. And I was a gay person. And at that point I knew that I could not, do that in Louisiana. And so I moved to New York City and I just wrote that. And then it became a huge thing. Back then, this was 2011. Things are different now.

1:27:09Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a big deal. I can only imagine. And to have a news anchor on a major network like CNN come out, no one had done that. I think Rachel was out, but Rachel Maddow, but she wasn't Rachel Maddow. And how many black men had done that? Zero. I was like the first to come out, among the first, if not the first. Did you lose anyone? Yeah, I lost that person that I was before who was afraid of coming out and afraid of losing their livelihood. Damn, that's beautiful. So I lost that person, but everybody else, no. If I lost you because of that, fuck it. I didn't give a shit. Yeah.

1:27:43But that was a real thing because people would say, you know, there were rumors, but I never really talked about it. And then now I don't really care. And then it's hard for me to, in this day and age, I get it. but people who are in a safe place and who are not out, I'm like, okay, don't do that. But that's not my business. It happens. What do you think people don't realize they're missing out on by not coming out? And not like, let's say publicly writing a book, but just what do you think they're missing out on? I wish that we did not have to come out because human sexuality is so, it is a spectrum.

1:28:25Actually, that's a great question for you. is so is it gay if somebody tries once no okay when does it become gay i'm asking for a friend

1:28:39well why don't you ask him because you remember you remember the other night when we hung out i didn't want to okay should i tell him you don't want me to tell him you know what it's fine

1:28:53no i don't i don't think that it's i don't think that it's gay if you try look i have been gay for a long time and there are people i know that i have hooked up with who are now married with children married to women and i don't think that they're gay i just think that they're horny or that they are human and they did something it doesn't necessarily mean that they're gay right um look at what happens when people are in close quarters when they go to prison or whatever they call it gay for the state yeah because we have we have urges and especially when you're younger your hormones are going crazy so no i don't believe that nor do i believe that it should be judged i think if we were we weren't so puritanical in this society and it wasn't so based on religion which it shouldn't be then we might have healthier people and we wouldn't judge and a safer society and a safer society yeah the safer society is the big the biggest one trevor look at look at all you have to do is like scroll through your news feed and you look at all of the conservative people the christian people who get in trouble for doing weird things with kids or they're saying oh gays are the worst and they end up being gay and they're on grinder now with the with the boobs the boob pictures i liked him more after that i did actually I liked him more Brian Noem Yes Christy Noem's husband Christy Noem's husband What did he do?

1:30:11He was found on websites Or dating sites He liked big He's like That was a fetish Yeah he would He would basically dress up Sort of as a woman But then put Gigantic Big giant massive boobs And then go talk to women also I guess with giant boobs And it was a whole thing And but He wasn't I don't think he's gay No no no no That's just a big boob That's his thing That's his penchant And that's fine That's just I'm not judging And that's his thing And that's fine And it really is interesting how, not just interesting, it's also sad how many of these people are in power espousing one idea. And then they get exposed for literally living the life that they have condemned in the worst way possible.

1:30:57But then they don't, there isn't like a, like a redemption is maybe the wrong word. But I wish that would make them go like, hey, look, so I, yeah, I actually am a conservative and I am also this and I am. So we can be, do you get what I'm saying? They can't do that. Yeah. But I guess sometimes I think when you're in a position of power or authority, it's easier to live a lie because most of the things that you see when you're up there are a lie. Yeah. Work hard, you'll get somewhere. You know, if you save your money, your money will earn interest. You know, you have to study and then you'll get a position.

1:31:33Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then the person goes, nothing here is true. Nothing here is true. So one lie from me is not going to make a big difference. But from what I'm hearing from Don is we must treat people who experiment the same way we treat people who put avocado on pizza.

1:31:50It might not belong there. No, dude. Tell me this isn't true. I'm going to get up now. Oh, you don't like it when you... Are you an avocado toast person? No, I don't put avocado on pizza. I don't know where that came from. You don't? Avocado on pizza. Trevor. I don't put... Which pizza have I ever added avocado to? Mommy and daddy. No, no, no, Eugene. Daddy and daddy are fighting. I'm uncomfortable. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Eugene. I was... Eugene. Giovanni's? Eugene. Put... Large pepperoni. Put avocado on pizza. My friend. My friend, you can accuse me of many things. Gay? I will be gay on Epstein Island before I have put avocado on pizza, son.

1:32:34and to be clear, there's nothing wrong with being gay. Something wrong with being on Epstein's Island. Unless you were like working as like a cleaner or something and you didn't know what was happening. Because no one ever found that guy. Actually, who was taking all those pictures now that we think about it? Who was developing the pictures? Who was developing the pictures and not saying anything? I have so many questions. Was it like King Co's? Who at King Co's was developing those pictures and not saying anything? Oh my gosh. You guys joke about this a lot. Does it bother you that people think that you're gay?

1:32:59Me? Yeah. Not even in the slightest. That's the last person that it bothers. Not even in the slightest. Because I saw the internet rumors that Trevor is gay. Not even in the slightest. We say to each other all the time, you're the only person that has ever said it. Ryan and Trevor and I say to each other all the time, you're being gay, that's gay. There's nothing. So, okay, here's what it is for me. I am very lucky. I'll say this. I'm very lucky in that my mother, who was my primary caregiver growing up had this and still has a very it's almost not progressive in the way she sees the world. So my mom, for instance, never really got into labels.

1:33:47You get what I'm saying? My mom was very, as she would say it, tomboyish when she was growing up. So my mom did, you know, she played sports and she was rough and she was this and she was... And so when my mom would meet like a gay or lesbian person she almost treats it like you're just experiencing something in life and she doesn't know how long that experience will be it could be one year it could be the whole your whole life yeah she does not think of it as like your your label and your conditioning or your anything so she doesn't think of it as good or bad she just goes like oh that's uh okay like if she met you as done and be like oh done and then let's say it came out that you were gay like in a conversation she'd be like oh wow and and and how long are you are you oh wow So you're going to do it forever Wow But she wouldn't treat it like It's a bad thing She'd just be like Oh damn You're doing this This is how you live your life The same way she'll talk to somebody Who's married by the way Does that make sense?

1:34:43Yeah So if she talks to a married person She'll also go So you're married Oh wow And how long have you been married? Wow And you're going to be married Your whole life Wow She just sees Your decisions in life Or your proclivities Or the way you are As you But I guess also Tina we were lucky Because growing up We're never exposed to shows, content. Wait, what did you call him? What did you just say? What did you call him? Tina. Oh, no, Tina. No, Tina means us. Oh, okay. Tina is a silly word for us. I was like, I have. You thought you called me Tina. Yeah. Now you knew for a fact. Don was like, whoa.

1:35:14Is that your drag name? You called me Tina. Hey, Don caught that quick. Tina? What's going on here? Tina Noah.

1:35:25Tonight, performing at the Roxy. Tina Noah. I am. I don't need joy By the way When I told you that There's always a way To ask the question Yes I asked you if you were gay And that question Oh that's fascinating Yeah It's good this one Yeah That is fascinating Yeah Yeah but you're saying Have you ever thought about it No Weller So I was saying that We growing up We missed that bus Of stigmatizing People who are gay So we never We never had those shows We never had those movies Where people who are gay Are being victimized Yeah Maybe for like And I mean like us Us growing up Yeah just us We're not saying for everyone us Tina we We use the word gay As A way of saying You don't want to do that Yeah it's not You don't want to Let's go ride a bicycle In the cold Nah I don't want Nah you being gay Nah So it Do you understand what I mean?

1:36:23Yeah It was never derogatory for us Because we never No And when you see the history, maybe like in New York, of how the gay community was being targeted and how they had to form little communities of dancing and doing makeup and doing shows and just being free with each other. You're like, oh, okay. If you grew up seeing that, you would understand that there was a group of people who believed in a certain thing that were victimized by the rest of everyone. Is that right? Yes, but I understand that. 100%. But you understand it when I said being gay is not an insult. Yeah, absolutely. We're still using it as an insult.

1:36:58But we'll use it for everything. No, no, what I'm saying is we'll even use other things as an insult. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't even bet on us, Tina. We'll use... Everywhere. But we'll use anything as an insult. We can use like, you're being Xhosa now. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? You're being what? Xhosa. So I'm Xhosa. My family, my culture. Xhosa. So Xhosa, Zulu, Tswana, Tsonga, etc. Oh, got it. But you can say that. Sometimes people will say it like, I'm a Shangan. Yes. If you're being colorful, you're being Shangan now. if you're being stubborn you're being Zulu now so it's not the thing if you avoid conflict you're being but you know what's interesting is the more the more you travel the more you realize how depending on how you view it I think it's beautifully complicated these things can be a simple example when I came to America it was interesting to see how sensitive people got if you refer to their weight like if you said you're fat or you've gained weight or you it was like a it's the one of the biggest taboos i'll tell you growing up in south africa in most parts of africa that i've been to my friends from the middle east will tell me this as well fat was like a compliment and if your grandparents said it to you they never said it in like a negative way they were like oh look at you getting fat doing well yeah and it was it was genuinely you're doing well more kids when i was growing up were roasted for being skinny like that was oh my god nicknames Sticks manzanza Skinny malindi Do you ever use the N word?

1:38:27Do you ever? Yeah Do you ever use the N word in Africa? Yeah but again No but this is a perfect example We used it And still use it Because it was like The most aspirational thing That existed in our world It's funny We were chilling with Vic Mensa On the show I love Vic And Vic was saying Whenever Africans use the N word He's a little bit like He's like you guys are not saying it right Yeah yeah He's like, the way you say it, he's like, I don't know. He's like, I'm with you, but you're saying it wrong. There's too many E's in the word. There's too many. But I genuinely find it beautiful because if you are, here's how I'll put it.

1:39:12I think social media has robbed us of the nuance of the concentric circles that our lives are lived within. there are things you will say with your husband that you would never say to somebody who's not your husband and then we expand it there's things you'd say to your family that you would never say outside of your family you expand it there's things you'd say with your friends that you'd never say you know what i mean yeah we've now made it seem like the words and phrases that we may use in our tiniest circles are the things that we eugene and i would never say certain things to other people regardless of what the word is right right because we know this is no you're not you don't roll with us you know what i mean we wouldn't say anything shangan we didn't say zonga because we know it's a derogatory term sometimes to say shangan there's just like but do you ever feel like that it's like i do we've robbed ourselves as people of the ability to know that something is wrong but within the context of friendships and relationships has no malice attached to it.

1:40:14I'm glad you said that because I've been dying to, when I knew that, when you asked me to be on the show and then I saw this, I was like, oh my God, I asked Trevor about this. So you said that you know, you don't say things that you know are wrong or inappropriate for that particular circle or what happened. I try my best not to, yeah. So the Kevin Hart roast. Yes. How'd you feel about that? Man, I had too many feelings about the Kevin Hart roast. I think the first feeling I had was, maybe I was naive or maybe roasts have changed, but I didn't like that the roast was as written as it was for everyone.

1:40:51That's the first thing I'll say, right? Because in my opinion, a roast is supposed to be an opportunity for each person to write the funniest expression of how they feel about another person. And do their authentic brand of comedy. Yes, but even if it's not true, you're going, what are all the things I can roast Eugene about? What are the things I can roast Don about? And they're not true, but these are things that come from my lens. I think I can make these things funny. And it comes from a place of love. That's what I think a good roast is supposed to be. It's supposed to be people who know you, people who like you.

1:41:27And then you can, and there'll be like edges on the dais because you might not know someone. So you can, shots can get fired in any direction. So that's like on a comedy writing side. I was like, huh. It was weird when people like, let's scroll past that on the prompter. and all the writers gave me that. And I was like, wait, what are we doing? Then why don't the writers just come and do this? That's the first thought I had. The second feeling I had was, it was just a weird one. I felt like it was weird that all the black comedians who came on stage told jokes about the people who were there. But then a lot of the white comedians who came on told jokes about black people.

1:42:04Yes. I was like, wait, wait, wait. I thought it was the roast of Kevin Hart. say what you want about Cheryl Underwood, say what you want about Regina, say what you want about Naeem or whoever's up there. But it was weird that like just, this was just like a black joke that had nothing to do with a person. And then you could just, you're like, wait, George Floyd? The roast of black people. Yeah, but you're like, but what does George Floyd have? I don't even understand the connecting thread between George Floyd and Kevin Hart. You haven't shown me the connecting thread at all. I don't know what did you feel look I'm all for free speech and comedy I think that comedians should be given a wide berth but the really good ones understand how to do it and there must be a there there I thought with some of those jokes there's no there there I look Kevin Hart I'm a huge fan of Kevin Hart I really admire what he's done business wise you know so that's a whole nother thing but I thought that I was uncomfortable with some of the white comedians who were making jokes about black people i felt that it was just an excuse for them to be racist that's what i'm like in public and it wasn't funny or interesting as a matter of fact i didn't laugh until um jeff ross came up the whole beginning of the thing i was like i don't this isn't funny why like what's happening here and then jeff ross came on i'm like okay good and then chelsea handling chelsea's good and so then you know and then i thought cheryl underwood stole the show no she was phenomenal amazing just phenomenal yeah um but i just thought it was um you know if you're gonna tell a joke the very simple thing is that it has to be funny and i didn't find some of those things funny i found them insulting that's a roast but i didn't think that they were i thought they were inappropriate but do i think people should be canceled for it no i'm uncomfortable with it i don't think that they should be doing it i'm not a fan of it but you do you so i'll disagree with you on one side i don't think anyone has the right to say anything is or isn't funny as a comedian i've always hated that whenever someone says that wasn't funny i'm like no no i didn't find that funny in the same way some people don't think korean food is nice and some people don't think that indian food is good and some people that's your opinion and that's fine but you cannot say it definitively is how i feel about anything that is a matter of taste right there are many comedians who i don't find funny but i would never say they are not funny because other people find them funny yeah because it's it's it's music it's a joke it's a painting it's a it's completely subjective sometimes i watch it and i go like huh i don't think that was funny but i don't go it wasn't funny that's that's the first thing for me so and i know it seems like semantics but i think people no no i understand what you're saying i always think people should remember that not everything is for you and that's great right um that that was that's the only thing that i disagree with the thing that got me as i say was I was going, because I love roasts, I just felt robbed because I felt like the roast wasn't about the people who were there.

1:45:09It was just like, you know? And then it was like, okay, I'll give you an example. Here's a joke that I thought could be construed as racist, but I think was also extremely funny. Maybe I would have changed like one word. it was the joke when Shane Gillis said Kevin Hart is so short they would have to lynch him from a bonsai tree yeah joke wise I think that's phenomenal I think it's funny because of like what it is doing in the joke is a very funny thing now lynching is not funny you know slavery is not funny all these things are not funny but that's not like the job the job of comedy is to funny in what's not funny I think that joke it gets marred by every other joke of the night that wasn't as good technically from every other person who's there not Shane Gillis it's just like but I'm like yeah but you know Cat Williams I thought was amazing I thought there were some jokes that everyone said they were amazing so again can I tell you what I loved most about the roast funny enough if you ask me as Trevor you go like what did you think about the roast the thing I love most about it is that it made people feel something the audience had a reaction the people there even shane would say damn this section is not with us at all people responded to it maybe i am maybe i'm starved of of authenticity so much that that's all i focused on but i actually liked that people were like yeah look i like i like that you as don had a feeling about it i felt the same way because like i said i wouldn't cancel anybody for it i think it created a conversation and i think it's good for people to be pissed off and not like things and and yes and you say i disagree with you okay great we disagree that doesn't mean we don't like oh no no no no no do you know what i mean yeah so i i it is what it is so i feel the same way i'm glad it happened and i'm it gave me something to talk about it gave me content but by no means am i criticizing kevin hart or oh yeah no no no we're not even saying that but you know what i'm saying no no completely completely but that's why i say the great comedians for me because cat did it really well if you watch cats whole roast again you You can't tell if he believes it or doesn't believe it.

1:47:27Like he, for me, he executed a 10 out of 10 roast. He's brilliant. Because A, it felt like everything was written by him. And B, it felt like everything was true from his point of view. He just said it in a funny way. But he had a higher degree of difficulty because he had been beefing for so long. So, you know, he had that. I'm sure that was part of his thing. But Sheryl Underwood did the same for me. Sheryl was so good. When she came out and said, she said, I know your kind. Yeah. You white boys, I know you're kind. In public, you're, but it's like, oh, you wish you could hit that. You wish you could.

1:48:00That to me is also, you know, like Eugene and I will talk about this all the time. Sometimes we, how can I put it? Let's go back to kids raising themselves. One of the things I'm sad about in today's world is that we no longer leave kids alone on a playground. to resolve their own disputes. Or let them go ride their bikes all day. Just, just. You don't do that. Because what we then do is as a society, if we are raised as kids who have parents in the playgrounds all the time, we become kids who call our parents when something is wrong all the time and we don't resolve our disputes. When you're just on the playground, sometimes you're going to fight, sometimes you'll punch the other person, sometimes they'll punch you through your headlock.

1:48:48Sometimes you just shout at each other. Sometimes you walk away crying, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you become best friends with that person. and I feel like that's necessary for a society to succeed. So for me, even in that world of the comedy, I think it's why Shane Gillis kept on saying, I phoned her, I phoned her and I asked her about these jokes. I phoned, because the audience there was going, ah, ah, Shane, ah, ah, Shane. And he's like, no, guys, I phoned Cheryl and he spoke about it afterwards. He even said on his podcast that he has with his friend, he said, man, he's like, he said, man, the jokes were racist.

1:49:20He said it. He's like, oh man, and there was some crazy racist joke. He's like, but I asked Cheryl about the ones about her husband, and she said she loved them, but the people weren't involved, and now it goes to the parents in a way. I'm like, sometimes it doesn't need to. As you were sitting, as you were talking about that, I think about the people who go on job interviews with their parents. Yeah? Wait, what are you talking about? Young people now go on, their parents will drive them to a job interview. My husband, who works in real estate, 30-year-old people who are looking for their first apartment or 20, their parents come and, yeah, and chaperone them.

1:49:58Yeah, we're going to lose more than we think. Yeah. I have another appointment. You're going? I have another appointment. You're going to come back then? No. No, no, I mean like, you're going to come back. No, okay. Just, we'll do another one. You like me? You really like me? Ah, Don. You think we'd lie? This guy. We'd never do that to you. this guy. You think there's makeup here, Don? No, I mean, this was amazing. I love this this was like genuinely man this is what a podcast should be music to my ears but for real man thank you for joining us can I be the third host someday there's no hosts here there's just people at a table you're always welcome if you feel like yo do you guys wanna hang yeah do you ever put four people five people six people no no no yeah you guys are not trisexuals I really enjoyed this this was amazing you're the greatest Greatest, mate.

1:50:49Good best to you. Greatest. Thank you.

1:50:55What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle Rebecca Chain is our producer Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth Thank you so much for listening Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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