Dr. Jessica Knurick: Is American Food Actually Poison? Debunking the MAHA Movement & Nutrition Myths

23:31They add a little sodium. So just adding sodium is considered processed like in this classification. And then ultra processed would be a Dorito chip. So you can't replicate a Dorito chip in your kitchen, but there is corn. She's amazing. You see now? Good. But if we use that definition, right? Because, again, the definition is an ingredient or processing method you don't have access to. So that really means any of these additives that we use to preserve food or change the color of food or those types of things. There is so much variability in the nutrient density of those foods. So you can have something like a Dorito chip that doesn't have very much nutrient density, right?

24:09It's not great for you. But then you can also have something like a protein powder would be considered ultra-processed, but you're getting a lot of protein in that protein powder. Right. So you can't just go good or bad. Exactly. And the people in charge right now are wanting to go good or bad and kind of like demonizing the previous administration for not like taking a hard stance on ultra processed foods. But this is the reason when you look at the science, there is there's like nutrient dense ultra processed foods and they're more accessible. And so if someone can devise a healthful diet that includes a lot of ultra-processed foods, but that it can still be a health-promoting diet for those people who don't have access to fresh fruits and vegetables, for example, then we can't demonize those foods, right?

24:50We have to identify that, oh, those can actually be health-promoting. And so we still need to do a lot more research in this area. And they've been doing some of that research at the NIH looking at ultra-processed foods. So it's a very nuanced kind of ecosystem there. but at the end of the day low nutrient ultra processed foods these prepackaged foods there's pretty good evidence that they're that they're negatively impacting our health how do we figure this out is there like a simple trick that we can use when we're out there buying food you know so let's use Doritos as an example someone grabs a bag of Doritos I did I wasn't going to say who someone grabs a bag of Doritos right they haven't eaten that morning I didn't I wasn't going to name any names and then they start nibbling away and you can see that this person is hungry and they're just like, you know, I just need like a few little nibbles of a thing, nibbles of a thing and then they eat it and then afterwards, they still don't really feel like they've eaten anything.

25:49I don't. And their stomach isn't full. At all. And they're going, I still need to eat something. After the podcast, yeah. And because I feel like I need to eat something, it means that that wasn't like necessarily bad for me or it didn't, do you get what I'm saying? How do Like what is that gap That we That we're Because we all experience it Someone goes like Oh I still have space So help me understand that Because I On a You know If I just read it Ultra dense calories I'm like yeah I understand this I don't really understand it Okay so with Dorito chips Let's take Dorito Yeah I mean I don't mean to throw Doritos Under the bus No no no Let's say all chips All the chips Chips Let's look at chips Yes So chips tend to be High in salt And fat Okay And so any combination Of salt, sugar and fat is going to be what we term hypersatiating, right?

26:37So it's going to be like you can just keep eating it, right? And corporations, by the way, are not trying to hide this. You remember those commercials that were like, you bet you can't eat just one. Yeah, once you pop, you can't stop. Yeah, you can't stop. So like they're designing these foods, you know, with salt, sugar and fat to be hyper palatable, hypersatiating. So what the problem is, is that those chips don't have any protein and they don't have any fiber. And protein and fiber are the things that are going to give you what that feeling that you're talking about, which is like feeling a bit full, right?

27:06So when you're eating something like that, you want to be pairing it with something that has protein and fiber as well. So maybe you eat a chicken sandwich and you have like some chips, right? Or maybe you eat a bean salad and then you have some chips. So implementing fiber and protein are really where you want to focus. Wait, wait. But there's something that's confusing here. So you say the chips, it's the salt, the fat, you're eating it. You know what I mean? It's making you feel like you're still hungry the whole time you're eating the thing you're eating the thing you're eating the thing it makes you feel like you're hungry makes you feel like you're hungry and then you said pair it with something else is like a better is is a better way to have it what about those like brands that say we've got fiber in the chips and we've got do you know what I mean like there's some chips that go no this is a protein chip but it still has the same calories on the bag and it's a are those actually better chips than the other chips and is the better enough to be better for for us or is it just a little bit better how much better 27 better no i'm just kidding oh damn i was like wow i was like we're kidding jessica i thought you were the expert you just made that up you had us you had us i was sold welcome that's not true that's not true i was sold i was let me tell you i had already scheduled in my brain calendar every event i'm going to And I was going to say 27%.

28:30No, don't say it. So I am actually pro these food corporations doing things like what you're saying. Because I do think that if you can add to something that someone's already consuming, and you can almost make a better version of it in the sense, and when we say better, it's just like they're adding in these nutrients that can help potentially make them more satiating, like fill you up as you're eating them, which I think can be a net positive. So I would say that I think that that would be like a step in the right direction to add some of these things because it could potentially help on the back end.

29:07I don't really have data to say like how much better it is or how effective it actually is. But theoretically, that seems like it could be a potentially good thing to me. I feel like that's where they scam us, though. They're smart because someone like you will say you need more protein in your diet. You need to make sure that you get more fiber. And then they just write on the bag, more protein, more fiber, just like the doctor said. Correct. And then I'm like, ah, back to those Doritos. You know, everything that you were saying about Doritos is so true about how they make you feel. Because I'm constantly battling with that.

29:37If I haven't eaten anything healthy in the morning, I'll start out with junk and I'll start thinking I'm doing good. But then I'll feel even worse throughout the day. But my question has always been, what is the definition of being full and what is the definition of being hungry? Because there's people who go, I don't eat that much and they're fine. But there's people who, if they skip a meal, they ultimately, you know, they fall into collapse because they're super hungry. So when you're eating something good, what is the battery level of, now I'm full. Is it because you've had the mass of food or is it because your mind is going, we've ticked that box, we've got enough of that and we're good now?

30:12I actually do not know the exact answer to your question, which one it is. I just know we obviously have hormones that are kind of like sending signals to our brain. We have hunger hormones. We have insatiety hormones. And so essentially... What are insatiety hormones? Satiety means like you're full. Like, so hunger and then full. And so when, you know, when you are eating to a certain level, this is why they kind of say to like eat slow and digest your food because it gives like, it gives your hormones essentially time to kind of trigger your brain, hey, we're full, right? So if you're kind of, if you are relaxed, you're sitting, you know, a lot of people on vacation say that they feel a lot better when they're on vacation, when they're eating.

30:51And a big part of that is they're relaxed. They're not stressed. They're not running around while eating. And like they're not driving their car and eating a sandwich, right? They're like sitting at a table and chatting and like having a meal and digesting that meal. And so when they do that, they tend to eat less as well. Because when you're digesting, it gives those signals time to be like, hey, we're full. So let's not overeat, which is another thing about ultra processed foods. It makes it really like convenient to eat quickly, right? And so the quicker we eat, the more we're going to eat before we feel that feeling of full.

31:20Okay, so help me understand one more thing Because I really don't get this Even though I try and read it and understand it How is it that that tiny bag can make you gain weight? When it's like that tiny Help me understand like the calorie And why you're gaining weight from a thing So I can eat half a watermelon, as I've said And I can eat like a few bags of Doritos Now I'm not saying this scientifically But the Doritos will, if I look at my body, if I have a week of terrible food like that, I'll see a difference versus if I eat watermelons the whole week type fruit things. How does that work? Because it seems like the mass of this is greater.

32:05But I don't think people fully understand how that tiny amount of food is making them gain more weight than more food like in a plate. It's just calories. It's what we term energy density or calorie density. So a watermelon is not calorie dense at all, which means that for the mass that you're consuming, the calories are very low. Because the watermelon, first of all, it has tons of water. That's its main thing. It's also got fiber and it's got all of these other properties to it. So when you're consuming it, it feels like you're eating a lot. It's just like if you consume a huge plate of vegetables.

32:44There's not going to be a lot of calories in those vegetables. but it's going to look like a lot. Like you're going to, if you hand me a big salad, I'm going to be like, whoa, that looks big. And then you hand me like this little bowl of pasta. It might not look as big, but it's going to have way more calories in it than my big salad, right? Of vegetables, you know, if you don't put dressing on it. So it's all about the caloric intake. So the small bag of chips has likely far more calories than the half a watermelon or a few pieces of watermelon, whatever you're eating. Right, yeah, yeah, right.

33:13So that's really what you're looking at. It's all about the calories that you're consuming Am I correct in saying If I think of it as an analogy It's like Calories are like words in a song Right? You can have a rap song Where there's like a lot of words In each line Just a lot of words And then you can have like Opera or something Where it's like one word For the whole You know what I mean? Ave Maria That was only two words I'm sorry about my friends No no no This is hey The watermelon is Ave Maria Thank you Thank you You see experts don't judge people You're the one who fell for the sticky lizard scam No that is why And you're falling for Ave Maria now No that is why She's an expert who's connecting with people Because she doesn't treat people like idiots When they're trying to understand Dr.

34:04Jessica you have to learn to say no No no no I actually think it's a good analogy Thank you very much I've never even thought of an analogy like this Yes because Because now it's helping me understand I never fully I won't lie I never fully understood it But now when you're saying it, I'm going like, okay, Ave Maria is two words, but look at how long it, you get what I'm saying? And then like, if you go to like a rap song or something, then it's lyrically dense. Exactly. Do you get what I'm saying? Lyrically dense is calorically dense. Aha, I see. The chips are calorically dense. And then you add to it, they don't have fiber and they don't have protein, which helps to fill you up.

34:38Okay, so those things are like separate to the calories. Right. Ah, you see, I don't think most people know this. They're not separate to the calories. Like protein is involved in the calories, but they help to make you feel fuller faster. Okay. So they're like teaming up with the calorie to do a better thing. Or else if you have just the calories by themselves, they don't have a teammate and then they actually become bad for you. Well, you can't just have calories by themselves because calories. I mean, do you really want me to get into the nutrition science? This is what people need to learn.

35:06I genuinely. Yeah. Okay. So there's what we have macronutrients and micronutrients. Micronutrients are vitamins and minerals, right? vitamin C, vitamin D, whatever it is. Macronutrients are calorie-containing nutrients. So that's protein, carbohydrates, and fat. Those are the three like... So everything you eat is comprised of and or protein, carbohydrates, fat. Got it. And those all have calories. Okay. Two out of those three have been demonized. Carbs and fat. Yeah, and we need all of them. They're all very important. Okay. Yeah, they all play roles in our... So if you were advising somebody on their diets and they said, I'm staying away from carbohydrates and fats, you would be not happy?

35:49No, because you cannot eat a 100 % protein diet. That would be very bad for your body. Why is that bad for your body? Because, well, first of all, we run on carbohydrates. I mean, that's, and we're getting our fiber from carbohydrates. That's the only place you can get your fiber. And you also need fat for your brain health, for many things, for nerve signaling. So fat's incredibly essential, I mean, for all of us. So each macronutrient has a really important role in our body, and they all kind of play together. And so you can say I'm going to eat a lower carbohydrate diet, and that could be potentially beneficial for someone.

36:22But you can't just cut out carbohydrates and fat and only eat protein, just only eating raw chicken breast, which also would have a little fat. It's hard to get pure protein unless you're eating just all ultra-processed protein powder. So when we see these people selling that diet online where they go, I've just been eating meat only for two months and I feel amazing. And now there's no cancer in my body. We should be skeptical of that. Yeah. And just to be clear, meat has fat, right? So if you're eating like steak or you're eating really any meat, it's going to have some fat. So meat has protein and fat without carbohydrates.

36:56Okay. Got it. So they're eating a protein fat diet without carbohydrates. And yeah, what the literature says is there can be short-term benefits for some people on a diet like that, where you're really reducing carbohydrates like a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet. But the long-term literature does not pan out. Like we don't have good evidence that that's sustainable for the long-term. When we look at food labels, how are we able to discern any of this ourselves? So, you know, I know there's that like simple rule that they give you where they say, if you want to stay healthy, stay on the outside of a grocery store.

37:29And they go like, just never go in so stay on the perimeter and then leave and they say you will be healthier but if people are looking at a package how do you know when the thing is or isn't bad because I remember once seeing RFK was talking about ingredients in food and he was like and I had to read the subtitles I was like sticky lizard is that you? and then he was talking about the thing and he said what is this what is this what and and then there were scientists who came on and said no that's just the scientific name for vitamin c yeah it was riboflavin i think in that video yeah and it was like oh no that's just the scientific name for for salt and that's the scientific so like how is is there a shortcut or is there a way to know what like the colloquial word is versus the scientific word?

38:25Like how are people supposed to know this? Because it all seems like it's poison when you read it on a bag, but then some of it is not. And then some of it may be. So when you're looking at a nutrition label, and this is why I'm like, I'm a big advocate of front of package labeling, which is like more clear for people to really understand, oh, this is high in sugar, or this is high in fat. So people are more aware. Right now we don't have that, but they're working on it. But we have labels and you'll always be able to see the amount of calories, the amount of protein and carbohydrates and fats and then an ingredient list.

38:57And so it depends on what someone's goal is really. If you're looking at a label, I don't actually look at labels much myself because I don't eat a ton of prepackaged food, but the prepackaged food I eat, if I'm buying crackers or something, you can look at it if you want to and look at how much fat a cracker has, and then you can compare it to another cracker that has a bit lower fat. But if you are just kind of like shopping for yourself, the label can give you, the way that the ingredients label is, is that the first ingredient is the largest in the food. And then it goes down from there. And so a lot of times in the ingredient list, it's like vitamins and minerals.

39:43And there's a lot of them, especially like wheat products, because we fortify our wheat here. And so they have like different B vitamins in them. So a lot of times it can feel very overwhelming to see like a big long ingredient list, but it's not as overwhelming as one might think. That's interesting because it's actually just contained in the food because that's how the food was made. Like the actual, yeah, you see, I didn't know that about wheat in that way. Fortifying, we fortify with like vitamins. Right, right, right. In the wheat. So you'd find that people who work out will have a pre-workout meal and a post-workout meal sometimes.

40:15Maybe it's a shake, maybe it's a salad, whatever it is. the average person who doesn't work out. Do you have to be conscious about if you're going to have maybe a busy day and you're going to work, you're going to walk like maybe four miles today. Can you specifically look into your pantry or your fridge and go, I'm going to eat like this because I'm going to be active versus I know I'm not going to get out of the house for the next four days. So eating this might be bad for me. In terms of the amount that they're eating? In terms of the kind of food and the amount that they're eating. So they're going for a walk for four miles?

40:45Yeah, let's say I know that this week I'm going to walk. Okay, yeah. I'm going to walk a lot. So I'm going to walk from home to work. Is there specific foods that I should avoid if I know that next week I'm working from home? I shouldn't eat any of these. No, no. I think that, you know, you can like downregulate the amount of food that you're eating if you downregulate your energy expenditure or your physical activity. Explain downregulate, Dr. Jessica. You can decrease, right? You don't have to eat as much food. So you'll eat more food when you're more physically active. And then the next week, if you're less physically active.

41:19And that's where like hunger signals come in, right? And so if you feel hungry, you eat again, kind of like try to digest your food, eat till you are no longer hungry. Don't overeat just because it like, you know, continues to taste so good. Or like hobby wise, a lot of us will do that just like out of habit. And so just, you know, eat to fullness. And then the next week you probably won't be as hungry. And so like you will not probably eat as much. You don't have to plan for it though. How important is listening to your body? because sometimes like what you touched on, this hobby eating and habit eating is quite prevalent right now, right?

41:52You see something on television, on social media, you go, I think I'll order one of those. But how important is it to listen to your body and go, it might be six o 'clock and I usually eat at this time, but today I'm not hungry. Yeah, it's really important to listen to your body and not override signals. And that's why like distraction can be a problem too sometimes. So like if we're really distracted or really stressed or really, you know, doing things while we're eating, it can lead to overeating. versus just kind of like being present with your meal and sitting there. And now we're getting into like the psychology of eating, but it is, it's a lot of like presence can really help in terms of like understanding your own hunger and satiety cues.

42:28Do you think there needs to be, it's interesting that you said that. Do you think there needs to be an overlap in how we talk about these subjects? Because for a long time, experts have always like stayed in their lane. And I mean like just stayed in their lane. Yeah. You know, they'll go like, no, no, I'm a bone doctor. you're like but are you a doctor they're like yes of bones like but can you tell me what they're like no bones and i'm not saying they shouldn't do that but it it almost feels like then the gaps open up for the people who are like oh i can tell you about bones and more and those people may not be the experts you know like i've seen a bunch of your videos where for instance you're talking to moms and i understand why because you told us the personal connection you have with misinformation online to moms.

43:13But I've noticed that you get into the emotional side of things. You don't just say, here's the facts. You'll say, I know you're scared. Or, hey, it might be scary when you hear that. Or you might be worried about that. Or you feel like you want to. When did you decide or why do you think it's important to make that shift and expand beyond just the literature and the science and include the human on the other side of the information? I think I benefit from my audience and the conversations that I have in my DMs, which I actually do engage with quite often, and hearing how much stress and anxiety and food anxiety many of these women have.

43:53And again, I went through this life stage of pregnancy and postpartum, and I actually, with my second, I had pretty bad postpartum anxiety. And so it was important to me. I mean, I kind of lived it. And so I understand how they are feeling. And I think that that gives me a lot of empathy for what they're going through. And so that's actually why I also am so committed to kind of correcting some of this misinformation, particularly that that's targeted at new moms and young moms because anxiety is really high. And so I hear from women all the time in my DMs about how much food anxiety they have and how they're scared to eat anything and how, you know, because that's that's what if you get into a particular algorithm on social media and you just keep seeing the same things over and over.

44:36And that's what plays really well to social media algorithms are these conspiratorial kind of really sensational claims. It can be really problematic. And so I think it's really important to me when I'm presenting information to meet people where they are and kind of like bridge that gap. So then they'll be more open to kind of hearing the information that I'm providing and the data that I'm providing. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. For decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter.

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46:39What's your bat signal? Like, what's the thing that you see that makes you go, time to get the cape out. Whoa. No, because I mean, I think of you like that. Whoa, whoa. I don't think of Jessica like that at all. What do you mean? I really don't think of Jessica. You don't think of her like a superhero? Get the bat signal. Yeah, because in one moment you're sitting at home. Hey guys, let's get the bat signal out. Let's get the cape. Yeah, but that's still. Let's get the bat signal. Yeah, but everyone has their Batman, especially because you think about it. You're sitting at home, right? You're a mom And you're a doctor Yes but you're at home There's got to be something That you see That makes you go I got to get my Batcave Like I want to know What that thing is Trevor don't do that So you don't want her To be Batman No don't do that You're saying Dr.

47:20Jessica Can't be Batman No don't do that Is that what you're saying Go back to how When she sees the Oh yeah you got to do it So you're at home You're hanging out With the kids You're doing your whole thing And then a video comes up You're like what is this video And then you see the video And you're like I've got a sense I've got to do something About this What are you looking for That's exactly how I'm going to say it from now on.

47:40Like, what are you looking for that triggers? Because there could be things that people have. There's old wives' tales. Right. Yeah. I could be wrong on this, but a lot of them aren't really harmful. They just don't do. You know, it's like people throw salt over you. It's things like that, even in nutrition, I'm assuming. And then there are things that are actually detrimental to people's health. Misinformation. Misinformation that'll hurt you. because there's useless misinformation and there's misinformation that'll hurt you. When you're online and you're seeing these videos, what's something that triggers you to go, oh, no, no, no, I've got to step in.

48:15And like, for instance, what's the most recent one that you did where you went, oh, I've got to step in here. Yeah. So usually it's someone will, most of the things that I respond to, people have sent me. And so if somebody sends it to me and then I see it and they are very concerned, that's like a, that's one of the signals that I look at. So, oh my gosh, they're concerned. Then I'll go watch the video. And if I see in the comment section, a lot of people who are either being misled by it or being concerned by it, that's usually what I look for. So it's like videos that a lot of people are influencing a lot of people or are confusing a lot of people.

48:49That's generally what I'll do. And then I also kind of think, can I provide a good rebuttal that's not too in the weeds in a succinct amount of time? Because it's social media, right? And so if it's going to be like a 10-minute rebuttal, it's usually something that I'll kind of put to the side. But if it's something that I'm like, I can literally just show a couple of articles about exactly how false this is, then that's something that I'll kind of pick up. So something that's like in the vernacular, in the like, we're all talking about it. Okay, got it, got it. And that's in like our thoughts.

49:19Yes, the zeitgeist. Yeah, the zeitgeist. We're in the zeitgeist. Yeah, and then can I really like respond to it effectively in a short amount of time? do the other people ever respond back to you like because you're out there saying this is false this is fake do those people ever come back at you um i mean it's happened a few times usually they just block me oh lazy so they don't like try and challenge you at all not usually no man i was sometimes though oh yeah yeah sometimes they refuse to like accept what i've said too or they'll just kind of like dig in um just depends on who it is i suppose so in that type of scenario when someone is claiming to be an expert and another person is an expert how do you then show a neutral observer where the truth actually lies yeah yeah so i um i don't rely on them to just believe me because i'm me i that's that's why i use so many like references in my videos and i'll show like if i if i tell you for example um a lot of people on social media are saying like synthetic food dyes are banned in Europe.

50:25Yes. Right. Yeah. Like you've probably heard it. Red dye 40 is banned in Europe. So I will. And I think that's a harmful narrative because what it does is it kind of like plays into this idea that like America is poisoning us and all these other countries care. Their scientists care and their regulatory agencies care and they're banning these things. And that's just not true. And so what I'll do is I'll show, you know, all five synthetic food dyes that are used in the United States predominantly, which is red, red 40, yellow five, yellow six, blue one and blue two, have all been deemed safe by EFSA in the European Union.

50:57All of them. All of them. Yeah. See, see, you. Yeah, no, I didn't. This is because of the narrative on social media and they have. They've all been deemed safe. I knew that they were deemed safe, but I didn't know that they were also deemed safe in Europe. Does that make sense? Yes. So, yeah. So they're deemed safe here by the FDA. Yeah. But they're also deemed safe in the European Union by EFSA. And so I'll go and I'll show kind of like the their regulatory agency or not the regulatory, but their scientific safety agency. And I'll show how they've been deemed safe. So you don't have to take my word for it.

51:27Go fact check me. But I'm going to bring this information to you so that you're aware that it's not it's not a difference in regulation. Yeah. And then and then I kind of like will walk them through, you know, whatever else we're talking about. But I think that that's really helpful to kind of give people their own ability to then go and look into it more if they want to, or actually like show them why it's false instead of just kind of relying on them believing me that it's false. Like I'm doing right now, because I'm not really showing you that it's false, but go fact check me after that. No, no, no.

51:54I mean, I'll read this, but what I'm saying is like, I knew one part of it is what I'm saying. Do you know? It's like, I just knew one piece of it and then I didn't know another piece of it. And I think that's actually what people don't realize. That's fertile ground for misinformation. A lot of people think And this is something that I had to learn And I learned it acutely during COVID Before that I didn't really need to know what I think I didn't understand how so many people felt The way they did about vaccines Right And forget the COVID vaccines I will always say this to people who are even like fighting I go like let's forget the COVID vaccine for a moment Take it away Because I understand this was a unique moment in time It was fast It's confusing Let's forget it But vaccines themselves I don't understand how you're against them They'll be like, because they're not safe and they're not this.

52:39Then I go like, I grew up in a country where like my arm looks like a war zone. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I've got every vaccine. You've got every vaccine. Our parents have every vaccine. Everyone's just, please tell me you've been vaccinated. But they didn't give us a choice. You were in school, bam, bam, bam, jab, jab, jab. And they did the thing. Polio vaccine. Yeah, like all of these things, right? And so what I then realized was it's sort of the opposite. It's not the people who don't know anything. It's the people who are actually reading and trying to learn and really informing themselves that are oftentimes the most susceptible to the misinformation because they, quote, unquote, do their own research.

53:23Do you know what I mean? So they go, well, I actually read this and I read this and have you seen that video? And I saw the study that was done and I saw this and then it's like, is it a study? Is it not a study? It was a study on five people who conducted the study. How do you even know when a study is good? Is it a meta-analysis or is it a... it becomes but that's where it's the fertile ground and so like the milk make america make america healthy again movement yeah maha if you look at it they 80 of what they're saying is sort of like the truth the 20 is where they make the money and the magic happen i mean that's the best kind of misinformation you do you have a little bit of truth and that's what gets people that's what brings people in right it's like oh they're they're helping even if it's like 80 of the time They're helping some of these people.

54:06And it's like they're giving out good information, but it's the 20 % of the time where they're completely manipulating the narrative and then taking advantage of you and the narrative. That's really the biggest problem. So, yeah, I think you're right. There is a problem right now because much of the misinformation we see, which is sometimes why it's so hard to kind of combat it and explain the nuance, because there's overlap there. There's like, yes, this is true. And here is how that is being manipulated. Yeah, because you now have to go yes first. And people are like, oh, so you do agree. And then you're like, but, but, but.

54:39And now it's too late. Like seed oils is a good one. That's like one of those myths that also doesn't go away. Do you ever see these where no matter what happens, they just keep coming back. They just keep coming back. They just, so like seed oil is a good one. Sunflower oil versus canola oil. Just seed oils. Those are both seed oils. In South Africa, that's what's going on now. Oh, that's the fight to South Africa. Yes, because they're going, canola oil is used for things that you wouldn't want to know about. And then people for a long time were using canola oil over sunflower oil. Huh. And now the switch is people are going back to sunflower oil.

55:13Not everywhere you go, canola oil, canola oil, canola oil, canola oil, canola oil, canola oil. So there's a big drive. I think it's a fight back, obviously, from the sunflower industry that's going, you need to use sunflower oil. You need to use sunflower oil. So a lot of people now have moved there. Avocado oil hasn't caught on that much. And obviously olive oil hasn't caught on that much. But the big battle right now in South Africa is between canola oil and olive oil. So are seed oils toxic? No. Is palm oil toxic? No. Well, palm oil has some issues with the environment, right? And with like that sort of thing.

55:44But all seed oils, the best nutrition science research that we have suggests the exact opposite than that they're toxic. And this is where, again, a little bit of truth kind of like gets kind of spun into these interesting narratives. So seed oils, which are basically vegetable oils, that's what we've called them. They're like sunflower, safflower, canola, rapeseed in other countries. These oils are used all around the world, right? It's not just in the United States. And what we have in terms of nutrition science research, when we look at epidemiological data and we look at people who are actually consuming seed oils, it shows the exact opposite than they're harmful for us.

56:26it actually shows a cardioprotective mechanism so that it looks like they are cardioprotective, especially when you switch them for saturated fats. What are saturated fats? Like beef tallow? Yeah, beef tallow. Because beef tallow I've now seen online. That's the healthy thing. This is the best thing to use. You should only be using beef tallow. Yeah, that's - They're like, you should wash your face in beef tallow. Yeah. Do you remember when they were telling you to wash your face in coconut oil? There was the coconut oil revolution. Yes. I tried it. It was terrible. Yeah. It just blocks your pores.

56:55Yeah, probably. And you smell like coconut the whole day and you just get like really hungry. All day long? All day long. When you walk in the sun or? Anywhere. I would just smell coconut everywhere I was going. You smell sautéed. Yeah. And then I was just like, it was terrible for like managing my hunger. I'm always fascinated about it. Wait, wait, wait. Let me explain the seed oil thing. Yes, seed oil. Sorry. Because they do take, I mean, there is a, and this is something that happens actually a lot in social media narratives with nutrition. They'll take a mechanism that's true. Okay. And then they will expand upon that to where we don't have any evidence to suggest that's true.

57:31So for example, seed oils, they're high in alpha-linolenic acid and linoleic acid. And so those are polyunsaturated fatty acids. And so that converts to something called arachidonic acid. And when we look in a lab setting, that increases inflammation, right? It can increase the inflammatory cascade. And that is true when that conversion happens. But when we look, first of all, that conversion doesn't happen very much at all. And second of all, when we look at it in a human model, because humans are complex, our bodies are complex, and not everything always, like, we might hypothesize because this happened in the lab, it's going to happen when we look at, like, humans living their lives.

58:11And oftentimes that's not the case because, again, we're complex. And so when we look at human models and we look at people who have been living and consuming seed oils, we just don't see that same effect. So we don't see higher inflammation. We don't see negative impacts. we actually see that people who are eating more of these polyunsaturated fatty acids have better health outcomes. And so another, but another truth is that seed oils, because they're highly processed, because they're cheap, and because they are relatively flavorless compared to something like canola oil, they're used in a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods.

58:47And so we are consuming a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods. And so we're over-consuming seed oils, which can be problematic. If you over-consume anything, including watermelon, it can be problematic for your health, right? And so those truths exist. But what does not exist is this idea that seed oils are toxic and why that's so harmful. You know, my mother-in-law, she's from Romania, and she pretty much exclusively cooks in, quote-unquote, seed oils, right? Like vegetable oil. But she's, like, sautéing vegetables in their foods and things. And so if you're telling someone who's using that because it's an affordable, accessible oil that it's toxic, but they're eating a pretty nutrient-dense diet and just using that oil, that's very harmful and problematic.

59:27Because what are you saying? That they have to go and buy the regenerative olive oil from the farm with the grazing cows? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just not sustainable for people. So we have to live in reality and understand that science does not say that these oils are harmful or toxic and they're accessible and affordable for people, which is, I think, an important distinction. But I think to Eugene's point, and I mean, we've seen this, it's not even a conspiracy. We've seen how we're also like you're fighting with, you know, misinformation. But we also forget that there's a company in the background somewhere.

1:00:04There's a food lobby somewhere that's trying to push something to push something else out to push something in. Like, look at how many years fat was bad. And then we found out, remember in that investigation where like the sugar lobby worked really well to vilify fat and carbohydrates. and then only now are we going, oh, damn, sugar, you know, we didn't realize that sugar was copious amounts of sugar because again, nothing is just bad. But sugar was the thing we should have been looking for in excessive amounts, but it's fat-free. You're right. If it was fat-free, it was good for you. And you're like, I can eat as much of it as I want because it's fat-free.

1:00:37So I will not get fat. Yeah, I mean, it's important. And I think you're drawing an important distinction based on what are corporations going to do. First of all, the media is going to sensationalize like science findings, right? to study. They're going to sensationalize the findings. But then corporations, they're going to take any little thing and try to spin it as the best thing for them. And they'll use it in marketing. So if there's a study that comes out that shows something good about blueberries, a product that has blueberries is going to put that on their label and be like, this is the best thing that's ever happened.

1:01:11And so the problem is we need to be better at regulating those marketing claims. And so there are quite a few claims that are regulated. I think they just added like healthy last year, but there's quite a few that aren't. So they can put it on the label and just kind of like as a marketing tool for the company. There's also a bunch - Protein, protein is that. Oh yeah, protein's having - If you just hit just enough protein, they can be like high in protein. And that's like a marketing thing for these companies. I think organic for a long time was one of those. Oh, they nailed that one. Yeah, organic is very regulated though.

1:01:43So like you have to meet organic standards. What are organic standards? Let's say in meat or let's say in fruit and vegetables? Yeah, I do not know exactly what the organic standards are, but I just know that you have to use specific pesticides in fruits and vegetables, for example. You can't use non-organic pesticides. You use organic pesticides. And I don't think it can be GMO. I think there's a couple of other categorizations, but I'm not sure exactly what it is. Can I just say something that I've noticed, which I really enjoy about talking to experts, is you say, I don't know a lot. yeah i don't know if you know i don't know if you've noticed this this is and this is it's so refreshing because we live in a world where most people we interact with on this level are online right and so we've been sold this idea that certainty about everything means that the person is an expert yeah it you know there's an expert expert expert expert and what's started to give me a little more solace and and even you know to your point like a understanding what a red flag is is experts will tell you where their expertise ends.

1:02:45So you've said it, we've had a neuroscientist on the podcast and they'll go, actually, I don't know because that part I don't, I think this because I know that part of it, but I don't know about this completely. And I wonder if that's also something we should look at as a red flag is if the person is all knowing about everything all the time, something's fishy. Yeah, I think that is a good use of red flags on social media. Yeah, if somebody is like appearing to be, particularly like if they say they're a doctor and then they don't put their credentials in the actual like profile, so they'll call themselves doctor so-and-so, but there'll be no credentials.

1:03:26Usually I have found that they are practicing outside of their scope of practice. They're just, you know, you'll look at their page and they're an expert in nutrition and an expert in brain science and an expert in this and that. And so that is a good thing, I think, to look at. Yeah, like I've always wondered, how does somebody who is just, let's say they're a doctor or whatever, medical doctor, or they've got a doctorate so they can say doctor. How do they know about like 5G and Wi-Fi? I'm always, because I go, aren't these two things separate? And again, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know that in medical school you're learning about the frequencies and radio waves.

1:04:04Do you know what I mean? But like how do you deal with those types of claims? Do you then pass it off to somebody? Do you, you know, like, what do you do with that? When somebody says to you, oh, Dr. Jessica, this thing here is also, does this cause that? What do you say to them in that instance? Do you go, well, I just don't know, move on to someone else? Or have you, like, formed, like, a little team of experts who you can pass it on to? I have, yeah. So if somebody asks me a question that's just outside my scope of practice, they do that quite often with, like, beauty toxins. Okay, yeah, yeah.

1:04:36like you know the clean beauty movement and that's just not my area they asked me like what about this ingredient lotion i have absolutely no idea so i have like cosmetic chemists that i'll refer people to oh i love that yeah so so that it's helpful to have like a little network of people who are outside your area almost like uh avengers yeah avengers of health the science communication avengers it actually is that's like i mean that's fundamentally what we need man well batman's not Not in, it's DC and Marvel. There's no inclusion, yeah. No, no, I'm just saying. I'm not coming anymore. You can't come, Batman.

1:05:09Sorry, like legally Marvel owns. I like how in his fantasy world, you can have a male voice and drop your kids and go, I need to go online. Yeah. But you can't be in another comic strip. Yeah, he has like these boundaries that don't necessarily. I draw the line at her crossing over, but her being a man. Listen, listen, this is legal. This is what this is, okay? Yes. I do not want to be sued by Marvel or by DC for saying that somebody is in another universe okay you know what I love about you you're always with I wanted to ask you why you chose the style that you chose for debunking things and maybe it ties into what you were saying about the scientific community and academia in general it's always been very you know it's like Eugene do your glasses it's been very that yeah yeah you know what i mean yeah it's that thing and you use humor you you're really engaging you you take it seriously but you do not take yourself too seriously yeah why did why did you choose that approach you know because you could have come in and just been like i'm an expert here's what it is but but you you didn't you've you've gone for something that isn't necessarily associated with academia and with like rigorous studies why that choice?

1:06:29Well, thank you. I don't know. I think it's just naturally who I am. So it's probably just lucky me that I chose something that I kind of approach it that way. This is a natural thing. I also think that I have recognized that we're living in this moment that people don't necessarily trust experts and they don't necessarily trust scientists as much as they did before. And it's not as bad as social media might have you believe because I just presented on some data I was speaking at the Mayo Clinic a few weeks ago, and I presented data on the trustworthiness of different professions. And scientists and medical professionals are actually still some of the most trustworthy people when you compare them to other professions.

1:07:09And so I don't know that the problem is as bad as we see it, but it's certainly declining. And so I think it's really important to humanize experts and scientists in particular, because that's my space. I think we should take some blame for the fact that people don't necessarily trust or are losing trust in science. And that's because, you know, scientists for a long time and even still today, we write in a language that's not accessible to people. We speak in a language that's not accessible to people, like your glasses, right? Yeah. And we publish our work behind paywalls that are not accessible to people where you have to pay like$85 to read a single research article.

1:07:48And so I think that's been a problem. And so we need to kind of like put a face to people who are who are doing the research. And I you know, I think that science communication is actually becoming more of an important field so that we can bridge that gap between like the researchers in the lab and then like what people actually need to know so that we're able to fill some of that gap, too. But I think like what to your point of like humanizing, like being human, right. And like inserting, you know, a personality. I just think that that helps to build trust, too. Right. So like when you can you have to like know the person to then learn from the person and so so that's part of it i also like the fact that you're giving it to people for free you know this is something that we don't focus enough on in society and it's that you have to pay for the truth but lies are free you know what i mean yeah like there's no website that has lies that you have to pay for search anything online search about any story any news article any health article you name it the article the news the websites and the pages that are fake yeah are free you're right yeah and then when it's a real thing they'll be like would you like to pay for the truth and i'm like yeah but if it's so important why and don't get me wrong the new york times exactly and don't get me wrong i understand that they have to pay their people yeah they have to pay people etc but it is sad that we we live in a world and and that's why i also appreciate that because this is not your job and yet you are giving people education that they wouldn't otherwise be able to access if they weren't in the institutions that you're in.

1:09:21Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're bringing up a point that's kind of, it's like nuanced because we have to also figure out a way to make it sustainable for people to do, like science communicators and things like that. And so, you know, there still has to be conversation about how to do that. But yeah, I think that it's really important. And that's why, I mean, I have a sub stack that I never put things behind paywalls and that's why, Like I want people to have access to the information because I think that that's really important. And they shouldn't, you know, you don't want to put things behind paywalls if you really want people to understand them.

1:09:54But I also understand the other side that people have to make a living, you know. Yeah. I feel like in a perfect world, that sort of be like a fund maybe or a, like in a perfect world, every university would be, and I know many do, by the way, don't get me wrong, in, you know, certain courses. But every university should be giving away a portion of their education for free. You get what I'm saying? so that education is not only limited to the people who can pay for it. Well, I guess that's what scholarships are. Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond that. I say like, I mean, just meeting, yeah, meet the people where they are.

1:10:24I know Harvard does it. There's a few of them where you'll be shocked at how many courses you can do at a high level university without ever going there. Yeah. But nobody knows about it is the weird thing. You don't know that if you go to that page and you click on it, there are free courses you can do on a whole host of things that won't make you an expert, but at least will give you a basic level of knowledge that welcomes you into the game without you paying anything. Yeah, a few things I've learned this week is the human body is a very complicated machine. And I think we're still trying to figure it out.

1:10:53Scientists, I think they're still trying to figure out how the human body works. And another part, thanks to you, is that nutrition can be a complicated subject if it's led by the wrong information, right? So if people know what to eat and what not to eat, people will be healthier. But I also feel like society has made certain body type look unhealthy and certain body types look healthy. So if you're super skinny, we assume that you are healthy. If you're not super skinny, we assume that you are unhealthy. And I think that psychologically as a nation, as a country, as a people, we need to do a lot in just convincing people that body types might be different, appetites might be different, likes might be different, but the healthiness is not determined by what someone looks like, right?

1:11:34Yeah, it's much more determined by the behaviors that that person is engaging in, right? And so you're absolutely right. Like we can all, just naturally, we all have different body types. And what's interesting is that's kind of like flipped in terms of like the public perception of it. It really is amazing, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and you guys probably know this even better, but it used to be if you had a bit more weight, that was looked at as a healthful thing versus the opposite. The flip for me was just coming from South Africa to the US. I mean, you remember when we were growing up, there were as many, if not more jokes about a person being skinny.

1:12:06Like nicknames, Stixman Zanza, you know what I mean? All those things. Sticky Malinky Sticky Malinky all of you know what I mean Wishbone there you go Medstick Eugene wrote most of them are they really this many? no they really are no they really they're tons tons and tons and like your parents would even roast you as well if you were like skinny they would even be and then people would roast your family and they'd roast and you could and then you and look I understood it over time but you'd come to the US and it would be the opposite and then I realized that no matter where you were the insult was generally coming from how far you were from society's perception of not just the looks but wealth yeah so in africa if you were skinny it's because you were poor yes so the further from skinny you could be the wealthier you were but then in the united states the the fatter you were the further you were from wealth and so now you could you could pay to look it meant that you could get healthy food and vegetables it meant that you didn't eat takeout every single nights of the week.

1:13:10And going back to what Eugene said, I love that one point you said about the differences. How do we figure out what a serving size actually means? Because people say like, serves two, one serving. When you think of it as a nutritionist, what is or isn't a serving? And how do we think of, should I eat one serving if it says serves one? Is that one for me? Or is the one different for everyone? How does that work? Yeah. So serving sizes, I mean, there's standard serving sizes and like you can use your palm like for example protein might be like the palm of your hand and these are wait wait wait let's slow that down protein is the palm of your hand what do you mean?

1:13:46I mean that's just kind of like a good marker like a good rule of thumb yeah a good rule of thumb like the amount the amount of protein I should eat is the palm of my hand for one serving yeah wait wait but how high does that protein go? yeah that's a good question no but that's what's always confused me I'll go to because you go to you go to a steak restaurant how are these are good questions yeah but you go how many times has this happened you go to a place and you go can I get a steak right if you get like a skirt steak like it's a little thin a New York strip steak or something a strip steak they'll give you like a thin strip right and it fills your plate right and then sometimes you go can I get a different cut and the meat's like this high but it's just like a filet that fits in the palm of my hand yeah yeah so the palm of your hand is not a perfect measurement it's just kind of like a general but there are actual serving sizes so like meat might be three to four ounces right so if you go to a restaurant you get an eight ounce steak that's going to be like now we two servings got it two to two to two and a half servings of steak and so um if you're looking at like a label it will say what the serving size is so like for cereal for example it'll be like three-fourths of a cup and then you like pour it in your bowl and that's like three times three-fourths of a cup right so right so that's going to be three servings so then again this is kind of like this is my nutrition 101 one of course i love it that's what everyone needs if it says 100 calories for three-fourths of a cup but you pour yourself three servings which was kind of like a standard cereal bowl right um you're actually getting 300 calories not just 100 calories from from that amount of food you have to like triple it because you're having triple the servings um on the label so so that's kind of how you would think about it is that part of the problem in america like i know this isn't the catch-all, but when people travel, everyone will comment on how serving sizes change.

1:15:35You know, they'll go, like a cup of anything in America is massive. Like the movies is the best example. When you go to the movies in America and you get a large soda, if you came back with that large soda to South Africa, like the whole village is drinking with you. Do you know what I'm saying? Except for Skinny Malinky. She's napping with a serving of meat. But like You know Those are also Strange signifiers That throw people Because they go I've seen people say this And I don't even mean it In a mean way They go I barely eat anything I had one bowl of granola And I had Like one cup of coffee Yes And then I had one this And I had one And I had one sandwich And I had one burger And I And I can't lose the weight And I I feel like you would be The perfect person To explain to them How the Like the The size of the thing makes the difference because you just broke it down with cereal and when you said just pour three fourths of a cup I went I wouldn't that would if you came to my house and you were like you saw me pour a cup of three quarters of a cup I'd be the first person to tell you I don't know what you're doing exactly I've never done that you fill the bowl the bowl must be full yeah this is the so would you tell people to get smaller bowls that's like when people pour themselves like wine at home in their glass it's not actually a serving of wine that's not a serving No, have you seen how high the wine gets?

1:16:59It's more like two servings of wine, right? But here's my thing. The disconnection that people have with their food, do you find that in a psychological effect? Because when I was growing up, my mom, when she would be making dinner, it would take an hour for her to get everything ready. And it would get you to anticipate the meal. And she would be like, you can't eat a sandwich. I'm already cooking. It's going to ruin your appetite. Do you feel like now people, or you have people who go, if I cook, then I can't eat the food. I don't feel like eating the food anymore. Tasting, eating, doing the whole thing.

1:17:29Do you feel like now people have disconnected from the process of making meals that stops them from enjoying meals versus what you said to me the other day that the anticipation for a meal nowadays is gone. People are watching TV. Actually, is that in your field? Discussing how somebody should even think of consuming a meal? Like, does it change what the meal does to them? You know, sort of what Eugene is saying is like, is it detrimental to us to not be part of the food being prepared. And I don't mean like detrimental, but other benefits. Yeah, to being kind of disconnected from the whole food system, essentially.

1:18:05Yeah, so there's some good data like with children, for example, if you integrate children into the whole process of cooking the meal. I even have a garden for my son, my five-year-old son, and I started a garden because he gets so excited to like grow like the vegetables. And like he gets, he always goes, unfortunately only one strawberry the whole season grew this year. But he was out there like every day looking for a strawberry. It was really sad. Actually to the point that literally a couple weeks ago he took strawberries from the refrigerator and put it into the garden and then came and got us and was like, look.

1:18:40That's adorable. I like that he was trying to like manage your disappointment. I know, I know. He was like, he was sitting there at night and he's like, oh, my poor parents, they don't understand agriculture. They really are having a tough time with disappointment. Let me make their day. I'm just going to go and make their day. I don't know why the strawberries didn't grow. Maybe somebody out there can tell me. But anyway, it gets him excited, right, to prepare the food. And then if he helps me in the kitchen cook the food, it gets him more excited. And he's more willing to try the food in that sense.

1:19:10And I think that that's a psychology that is obviously true for all of us, right? If we have more of an investment in the whole preparation process, it can be helpful to us. But again, there's a lot of barriers to being able to do that. So there's time barriers and there's obviously money barriers and access barriers that all kind of play into our individual choices. Don't press anything. We've got more What Now after this. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update and renovation, it becomes a little more your own.

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1:21:44So if somebody is coming to your feed and they they they're looking for the information, what are the things that they should look to you for? And what are the things that they shouldn't look to you for? Like when you go like, this is like what I will distinctly help you with. It's it's, you know, this is the column. Yeah. So I I focus a lot on the systems in our country that that set us up for success for evidence-based recommendations. So if we're trying to like, well, first of all, nutrition science, right? So all of the nutrition stuff. But if we're trying to prevent lifestyle-related chronic disease, there's many things that go into that.

1:22:19And so there's nutrition, there's exercise, there's sleep, and there's stress reduction. And there's accessibility of healthcare access. So you can go to preventive visits. And so looking at, we all make individual choices within a system. And so what are the systems in this country that either set people up for success or set people up for failure? And what policies have been enacted that have led to these systems versus what could we be enacting that could improve those systems? So I kind of like to look at the whole health system and public health in general. But so certainly like nutrition science and then looking at holistically, what can we do to prevent chronic disease?

1:23:00if you were giving somebody just like simple tips like for all of us to go away like i know now no more half watermelon this is i've you didn't say it to me but i felt it and i appreciate that palm of my hand is a shortcut but obviously understanding it's still within okay but but what are some of the tips that you would give somebody um let's let's let's break it down actually you know because there's so many different types of people so let's start with a mom. I say there's a mom out there who goes, you know, I really want to get out there and I want to make sure that my kid is getting the right food in the right ways.

1:23:38Do I get them a bag of candy? Do I give them a treat? Do I give them chocolate? How bad is this for them? What am I trying to feed them? What are some of the tips that you would give just a mom in that situation because they don't want their kid getting cancer or type two diabetes or any of these things? Yeah. So let me step back and just give kind of like a holistic view of what we've been recommending really for decades. Because I think there's a lot of confusion in nutrition because of social media about like what to eat, what not to eat, what to do. But like in the nutrition science research, like it's been pretty consistent for decades.

1:24:14And so overall, like if you meet these things, you're going to be far and away better than, you know, most people. So making sure that you're getting fruits and vegetables and a variety of these whole foods as much as possible. And again, there's going to be issues in terms of barriers for people, but this is what the evidence shows. So getting a range of fruits and vegetables, getting a range of proteins, a variety of proteins that can be different meats, that can be beans, tofu, like all of these different plant-based and animal-based proteins. I'm going to interrupt you in a few places. Forgive me, just so I can clarify in some of these.

1:24:48does it change what packaging those things come in so if somebody goes i'm going to get beans but they canned and i'm going to get tofu but it's in this packaging and i'm going to get does it change at all or is that still the good foundation to to go with yeah so those things are going to be you know those are going to be on the margins right so maybe it'll change a little bit but like the the overall i would much prefer you to eat canned beans than no beans okay got it okay got it right so like that's the it's this is so much more important in terms of like what you're including versus like should it be canned or should i prepare it from the bag in a in an instapot or whatever it is okay um and then you know if if because canned beans are incredibly accessible and convenient for people and so if that's going to get you to eat more beans which is going to increase your fiber intake that's what i'm going to go with okay i myself use a lot of canned beans because it's so much easier i just rinse them off um but wait why do you rinse them off um just to rinse like the sodium off because there's a lot of sodium in the cans there's a trick see there's a trick yeah okay i like that okay in a colander and rinse them off oh i've seen people doing that with garbanzo beans right yeah yeah chickpeas yeah yeah they rinse them off and then they no but you see this is what i mean it's like these types of things yeah because we live in and i mean i don't need to tell you this but we live in a world where sometimes the tips are given to people in a way that i love what you just said it's given to people in a way where they can't access it.

1:26:11So it's like, don't eat the stuff in the can. And they're like, well, you've already excluded me because I can't afford the other things or it's not convenient. I don't have the time. But I love that little tip that you've included there. Get the canned beans, just rinse them off because the bean is great. It's all the stuff that's around the bean that may be not as good for you. Yeah, just reducing the sodium content. Okay, cool. All right. So, okay, got it. Yep. And that's the same with like frozen vegetables and frozen fruits. I mean, those are wonderful options and they're more accessible and they'll last longer.

1:26:39And so if that's what can get you to eat more vegetables, like choose the frozen options, right? And actually sometimes frozen can be more nutrient dense because they flash freeze it than fresh. But yeah, so get a variety of fruits and vegetables, get a variety of proteins, make most of your grains whole grains or a good amount because you're getting more fiber. I mean, all of this is kind of like trying to increase fiber. What is a whole grain? And forgive me, I know I'm going to sound like an idiot because I am, but also because I think a lot of people don't know what these things mean. So what is a whole grain?

1:27:08A whole grain just has more fiber in it. So like it's versus a refined grain. Okay. So a refined grain will go through like the refined, like - But give me an example of what is a - Like white rice versus brown rice, for example. Oh, okay. Not that I'm saying not to eat white rice because I myself like white rice. It's just that you want to implement some whole grain. Got it, got it. So things like whole wheat products instead of refined wheat. So that'd be like a whole wheat bread instead of a white bread. Okay, got it, got it. That's kind of the best example. And again, that's because it's going to get you more vitamins, more nutrients, and more fiber, essentially.

1:27:43And then reduce your intake of low-nutrient, ultra-processed foods. And again, there's variability there, but really when we're thinking about it, and that doesn't mean eliminate your intake, right? It just, right now, 70 % of our food environment are these ultra-processed foods. 70. 70, because again, our food environment was really built for corporate profits, That's not necessarily for our health at kind of every stage of the food cycle. But decreasing your intake of those and making sure that you're getting adequate fiber, adequate protein. And that's not really too much of an issue for us.

1:28:17And adequate fruits and vegetables. And those things, again, they've been consistent forever, right? Those dietary patterns. And then, you know, in terms of, there's other things like in terms of exercise, making sure you meet your exercise needs. But for food, that's kind of like holistically what we're looking at. Now, if I'm working with a mom, that's when it becomes, okay, she has like a time barrier. She has, you know, if she doesn't have an accessibility barrier, then that's great. And so what I would say is start your child really young. Get them eating a variety of foods young so that they kind of are doing that.

1:28:50And then they might go through kind of like a picky stage and that's okay. Don't be like too nervous about that. But just keep offering, right? Keep offering different things. Make the food fun. There's a lot of like psychology there. and some of my colleagues who really work in this like child space are really great at this and they can like, you know, the broccoli and you can dip it in the ranch and then show that it has snow on it and then it gets them to eat it more. Yeah, my mom used to throw carrots at my head and be like, missiles, duck, missiles, duck. Yeah, that's one way to do it. Move, move, move, move.

1:29:18Get down, soldier. I have PTSD, but great eyesight.

1:29:27So maybe don't throw baby carrots at somebody's head. that recommendation did not come from me let's let's not try and get let's stay in this moment you know you love me eugene i do you know you love me okay so make the food fun i actually like that make the food fun yeah yeah and then just again variety like getting your kids variety um and then don't worry too much about like you know if you have a strong foundation of food and you're getting all of these foods, there's room for like these snack foods as well. I mean, kids are going to have these foods when they're at parties and even at your house, there's room for them.

1:30:07There's been a lot of heat around baby food and food formula. And that's like been one of the main battlegrounds. And I know you've discussed this. What is your advice around that? Like, you know, to moms who don't know, they go, I've heard that baby food is bad and I've heard that formula is bad. And I don't know what to do at this point. What's your advice to them? A lot of it, again, it's a vulnerable population that is easily targeted on social media with viral sensationalized content. So I think understanding that and realizing that is like the first thing. Infant formula is safe and it's healthful for babies who need it.

1:30:48There's lots of... Infant formula is actually some of the coolest science. Like I love infant formula science Because like how amazing that we've been able to, as best as we can, replicate breast milk so that like infants can have this food source and survive, whereas they used to not survive before this existed. Right. And so I think it's very cool where we've come. And I mean, so infant formula is safe and it's healthful for infants. And I'm a proponent of breastfeeding. I breastfed both of my children. And I think that that's wonderful. And I think it's wonderful that there is a safe option for infants who are not breastfed.

1:31:27So yeah, infant formula, some of the biggest things that I see are like the fear mongering out there about infant formula are about the sugar source, like having corn syrup in the infant formula and then seed oils in the infant formula. and they'll compare them to the EU. And I've done a lot of videos on this. Every single infant formula all around the world contains quote unquote seed oils. And that's because of their polyunsaturated fatty acid content. And so cow's milk, which is the basis of formula, is a lot lower in polyunsaturated fat than breast milk, than human breast milk. And so what happens is you have to have cow's milk and then you can add in those polyunsaturated fatty acids with something like a seed oil to more closely mimic breast milk.

1:32:11And so that's why they're used. Again, the science is so cool that they were able to figure that out. And like, yeah, be able to do that so that they're getting all of their, and this is really important for brain development in infants, right? So they need those polyunsaturated fatty acids. And then corn syrup is the other one, which is a sugar source. And what I would say is that - That one's been fixed though. Trump took the corn syrup out of Coke and it's healthy now. Yeah, so that's high fructose corn syrup, which is different than corn syrup. No, no, no, they're the same. It's all fixed.

1:32:36It's all fixed. It's all fixed now. No, so - this was a big thing yeah it was this was huge like Trump was like he's like I'm getting rid of it no more corn syrup only sugar like Mexican Coke but I don't want Mexicans just the Coke I added that last part he didn't say that but I think he thought it and you saw what actually happened right no what actually happened what actually happened is Coke used it as a marketing tool and instead of getting rid of the high fructose corn syrup they just created one more offering that has cane sugar in their But is the cane sugar one healthier for people? No No Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait I've always heard that High fructose corn syrup Yes Is killing people I know you have, yeah And cane sugar Because I know what a cane thing Like when A cane thing A cane thing You know The reason why black people end up in Jamaica Is a cane thing I apologize Sugar cane Sugar cane Okay, yes, yes I've seen sugar cane I've eaten sugar cane and then I see the sugar cane becoming sugar I've seen it happen yes the high fructose corn syrup it doesn't seem to your point readily available so I'm like how is high fructose it actually looks processed yeah it sounds it doesn't you can't even like make it versus squeezing a sugar cane yes so how is that possible okay so high fructose corn syrup comes from corn right it's just sugar from corn so we use corn to make the sugar whereas cane sugar comes from a sugar cane you use that to make the sugar okay whereas you know sugar beet which is very popular in Europe because they grow sugar beet really well.

1:34:10That's what they use to make their sugar, right? So all of these are sources of sugar. So high fructose corn syrup is called high fructose because it's much higher than corn syrup. So corn syrup is 100 % glucose. So anything higher than that in terms of fructose level is called high fructose corn syrup. Okay. Let me get a little bit more in the weeds here. So high fructose corn syrup, all of these sugars are a combination of glucose and fructose. Okay, got it. So glucose and fructose combined, 50%, 50 % makes sugar, what we know of as table sugar, right? So that's 50 % glucose, 50 % fructose. High fructose corn syrup is anywhere from 42 % fructose to 55 % fructose.

1:34:50Okay. So they are metabolically, when we look at the data, the same. They're both, glucose and fructose, they have no difference in terms of like their metabolic impact on a human level when we're looking at human physiology. They're both sugar sources. They're both made up of glucose and fructose, just in a bit of a different varying amount. And the difference in terms of health is just non-existent in the literature. And so, again, and I want to explain why we use high fructose corn syrup in this country, why a lot of corporations do. Because we live in a capitalist economy where corporations are trying to maximize profit, you know, and not necessarily to keep you unhealthy.

1:35:29They just don't care if you're unhealthy, right? Like, they're like, well, they just don't care. Yeah. Yeah. They're not coming after you. They don't care about you. And I think that that's part of this conspiratorial idea that everyone's trying to keep people sick, but it's actually not. It's just the logical conclusion of the system that we've built, which is to prioritize profit at the expense of everything else, right? If your main value is profit, you're going to do things like buy the cheapest ingredients possible. In the United States, through policy, we have made corn a very cheap commodity crop.

1:36:01And we do that through subsidies for commodities and we grow corn really well here. We've also done it by putting quotas on the amount of cane sugar that can come into our country because we're trying to protect our corn farmers. And so we grow a ton of corn here, whereas it's the exact opposite in Europe. They grow a lot of sugar beet there and they have done things like put quotas up until like 2017, they put quotas on how much high fructose corn syrup could be made there. So because of that, manufacturers are gonna use the cheaper sugar, right? And so they use a lot of sugar beets or like sugar over there, whereas we get our sugar sources from corn a lot.

1:36:37And so these manufacturers that are making these ultra processed foods are trying to get the cheapest sugar product available. And that's, if cane sugar was the cheapest sugar product available, they would choose cane sugar, right? But they choose high fructose corn syrup because it's cheap because we've made it cheap. And so that's what's in food. And so what the problem is with high fructose corn syrup is we are over-consuming high fructose corn syrup because we're over-consuming sugar. If you over consume any kind of added sugar, it's a problem. And that's why, you know, the science-based recommendation is to limit added sugars to less than 10 % of your overall total calories.

1:37:11And over half of the country does not do that. They eat too much sugar. So there's incentivization to use the product based on where the country is and what they think. There's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that people always interact with, always have in their homes that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm going to do a quick fire of maybe a few. Then you tell me yay or nay and why the yay, right? Okay. So salt, is it a yay or nay? You need salt. Your body needs salt to survive. It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably going to be my answer to all of these, but we can see.

1:37:48So good salt is, so now there's a battle between Himalayan salt or just normal salt? Which one is good? Which one is bad? They're neither. They're both fine. Marketing. Yeah. Sugar. Good or bad? Again, sugar. I mean, there's sugar in fruit. And fruit is a wonderful food, right? So because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad. It's the overconsumption of sugar that's bad. And particularly like added sugar, like a soda, right? Because you're just drinking sugar with no nutrients at all. So that's kind of what you want to stay away from or limit versus just thinking sugar itself is bad.

1:38:26White sugar or brown sugar? Which one is the best? They're the same. Oh I always thought brown sugar was way healthy I thought it was like brown rice I would eat it all the time And I'd be like mom look I'm being healthy No And then she'd throw carrots at my head It's not any healthier Wow Okay oil Vegetable oil versus Beef tallow Beef tallow yes Versus olive oil maybe Versus olive oil yes So this one gets a little bit nuanced There's actually some great data to show Like health benefits of olive oil itself And a lot of that probably comes from It's mostly monounsaturated fats. And it also, olive oil usually comes with nutrients as well.

1:39:04So if you're looking at the nutrient composition versus like vegetable oils, like you just mentioned, are very refined. So they're not gonna come with any of those nutrients. So if you want like an honest answer, just looking at the nutrient profile, olive oil wins in the nutrient profile. But when you look at like what that means from a health perspective for people to consume it, your overall dietary quality matters much more than the type of oil that you're using. And then beef tallow is a saturated fat. And for some people, the recommendation would be to limit saturated fats, people who are at risk for cardiovascular disease, for example.

1:39:42So that one's gonna depend a little bit on who you are and what the rest of your dietary makeup looks like. But the best epidemiological evidence we have in nutrition would suggest that you wanna limit those saturated fats and use poly and monounsaturated fats, which are more like olive oils. This is a shortcut that I heard and I've been using, but I would love to know if it was true. When you're talking about the different types of fats, I read or saw once someone said, the way it looks outside your body is the way it'll turn inside your body. And it sounded great, so I believed it. No, because what I meant was like, let's say you have a stew or any type of meat that's cooked, you know, like, and the fat will, and if you leave it for a while, you see the fat harden, it rises, but then it like hardens.

1:40:27Yeah. Right? Whereas like with, like you're saying, olive oil, it doesn't harden at any point. And then I remember reading this thing, but I don't know if that's true or not. Is that an approximation for it? Or is this just like a shortcut that isn't really helping people? Yeah, I get where that's coming from because saturated fat is what's hard at room temperature. So, and unsaturated fats are not hard at room temperature. So if you think of like bacon, if you're making bacon and then you like pour the grease into a can, that'll harden once it like cools down. and gets to room temperature. And that's because it's a saturated fat.

1:40:58Whereas like a vegetable oil will just sit in your closet and it's obviously oil the whole time. So yeah, the idea is that saturated fats have been known to contribute to like atherosclerosis, which is like plaque buildup in your arteries. And so that's probably where that comes from. So there's probably saying like, oh, because it's hard here, it's gonna contribute to plaque buildup. And it's an oversimplification for sure. But I understand the rule of thumb. Okay, cool. And finally, the big one, bread, good or bad? Bread? Yes. Well, I mean, I eat bread every day. You? Yeah, I love bread. You?

1:41:37I mean, look at like France and Italy. I mean, these people eat bread every day, right? So it's not bread that's bad. It's bread, it's overconsumption of ultra processed carbohydrates and things like that. But bread itself is a wonderful food source that's eaten all over the world. So it's not necessarily bad. No, I think bread got a really bad rap in the United States, I think, in the 90s and 2000s. And then it's kind of persisted as being some uniquely bad food. But no, I would not say that it's bad. The milk. Milk is one that always comes up. Which milk is good milk? Which milk is bad milk?

1:42:17Is milk even good? Should we be drinking milk? And then should it be pasteurized or should it only be raw? Okay so Milk comes from We're generally talking about Cow's milk Yes Because that's what most commonly Wait There's like goat's milk And things like that I was saying cow milk I was saying cow milk Because you heard how He was interested in baby formula I was saying cow milk Yeah Okay sharp So cow milk Cow milk Okay Yeah Again like good for people Is like so subjective And so we And like we have to like Figure out what that means For somebody But milk is is a very nutrient dense food for particularly like young kids, right?

1:42:57So it's often recommended because it's just a way to get them calories and nutrients that are great. I will say that I think the dairy industry has really impacted our recommendations of milk because it doesn't have any unique nutrients that you can't get elsewhere. So it's not like you have to have milk in your diet. I don't personally drink milk because I just haven't in years, but and I can get all of the other like calcium and vitamin D and riboflavin, all of those nutrients elsewhere and the protein and fat. But again, it's not a bad thing to drink milk. It's just a food that you can either drink or not drink and get the nutrients from or not.

1:43:34And it depends what the rest of your diet looks like. In terms of pasteurized versus raw, which is talked about a lot, there's not great evidence that there's unique benefits to raw milk. I know that a lot of people say that. I haven't seen good data to suggest that, but let's be really clear about what pasteurization is. Pasteurization, because I think people might think it's like adding chemicals to milk. It's just heating milk. It's this wonderful public health advancement that we figured out, Louis Pasteur figured out 100 plus years ago, that if you just heat milk to 15 degrees or for 15, 165 degrees for 15 seconds and then rapidly cool it, it will eliminate all of the harmful pathogens that used to get people really sick or kill them.

1:44:17And so it like revolutionized the milk industry because it was like, oh, people can actually drink this without getting hurt now. And so that's what pasteurization is. So it's just a significant way to reduce foodborne illness and pathogen risk. Okay, and then - So highly recommend pasteurization. Highly recommend, got it. Vitamin K, vitamin K. Yeah. Is it vitamin K? That's like a big thing. Is it silent or is it - Vitamin H Sorry No no that was amazing I'd like to apologize Those are the moments Those are the moments Where I fall in love with you I wasn't against you I was mesmerized That's all I was You see how traumatized I am You see how quickly I apologized No really it was beautiful Again that's something That you see in like The Maha movement It's like vitamin K No vitamin K Where do you get it Where do you not When it comes to those individual vitamins, how should we even think of them?

1:45:16Are there people saying not to get vitamin K? There was a movement online where they're just like, what is it doing to kids' mortality? Are you thinking of the vitamin K shot? Oh, yeah, it was a shot. Yes, you're right. Because vitamin K is an essential vitamin that we all need. It's a fat-soluble vitamin. So I think, yeah, there are some videos about the vitamin K shot. So the vitamin K shot is given to newborns, and it's to prevent vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And so newborns don't have adequate vitamin K like we do. So our bodies, our microbiomes make a bit of vitamin K, and then we get it from our diet as well.

1:45:55And what it does is it plays an essential role in the clotting cascade. So it allows your blood to clot if there's a bleed, so you don't bleed out. Oh. But infants don't, like newborns don't have that ability because they don't have adequate vitamin K. And so for years and years, I mean, decades, forever, you know, there was no understanding when an infant would bleed, they, you know, infants would just die. And they wouldn't know why because they would have a brain bleed. A lot of them are brain bleeds. and what they found is that it's because they're deficient in vitamin k up until about six months of age when they can start consuming food themselves like salads and natural food and their microbiome start to start to make it and so yeah for the first six months of life they're deficient in vitamin k and so they're at risk for these this vitamin k deficiency bleeding and what was found that if you just give infants a shot of vitamin k at birth it completely prevents I mean, pretty much completely prevents vitamin K deficiency bleeding.

1:46:54And so it's given to all babies because we can't, there's no way to know which babies would have these bleeds, right? And so in order to prevent that, you give a vitamin K shot to these babies. I mean, this shot has been given all around the world since the 1960s now. So we have a lot of data to look at its safety. And it's one of, I mean, it's an incredibly safe shot for newborn babies. Supplements is the last thing I'll ask you about Because that has just become I mean You have to You got to wake up And are you taking your Your collagen Are you taking your Lion's mane Are you taking your What did you give me that look When I said lion's mane Are you taking your That was funny But it's just like Everything has become a supplement Your adaptogens Yeah your adaptogens And it's like Are you not taking them And this is what There's free radicals You have to stop Or invite the free radicals I never know which one it is But there's an industry that's making a lot of money telling people that they're not getting the nutrients or the supplements that they need.

1:47:56And ironically, by the way, a lot of the people around RFK sell these supplements. And now he's proposing changing a lot of the laws to accommodate their supplements to be sold in places where they weren't allowed or they weren't allowed in the way that they're trying to, whatever it might be. But I see a lot of people going, oh, should I be taking these supplements? Should I not be taking these supplements? What am I lacking? What's your view on supplements as a nutritionist? Yeah, so I think supplements are an incredibly profitable area for a lot of people. So you mentioned that a lot of people within RFK's realm really sell supplements, and that's true.

1:48:36I mean, the wellness industry is a multi-billion dollars, hundreds of billions of dollars industry. It's this huge, massive industry. And what you'll find is a lot of people who are selling supplements will kind of play into this narrative like you can't trust big pharma and you can't trust traditional medicine because they're out for money. And then they'll turn around and kind of like sell you all of these supplements that is also a very profitable for money industry. Right. And so it's interesting that like wellness seems to kind of like fly under this radar as this altruistic thing when really, I mean, the profit that these people, the profit margins are huge on supplements.

1:49:11And so they're making a lot of money by getting you to be like, I don't trust pharma. I don't trust experts. I'm going to only trust like these supplements. And I think it's really important for people to kind of identify that playbook that a lot of people do use. Yeah. Like, don't trust these industries, which, by the way, pharmaceutical medications. And there are problems with pharma. Don't get me wrong. We can talk about those. But the pharmaceutical medications are highly regulated by the FDA. They have to go through multi-stage clinical trials to make it to market. And then stage four, they're assessing them when they're in the market.

1:49:42Whereas supplements do not have to go through that rigorous process. Supplements actually have a long history that dates back to heavy lobbying from the supplement industry and politicians that were working with the supplement industry, not allowing the FDA to have that regulatory oversight that they wanted to have. And so now supplements don't even have to show that they're effective or safe before coming to market. And so we see that. I mean, and we see issues with supplements all the time. There's plenty of issues and a lot of liver issues in people as well. And so I think when you're thinking about supplements, I think it's important to understand that it's a very profitable market that people want less regulated than it already is.

1:50:26Right. And it's oftentimes the same people who are complaining about the regulation of food additives, but then don't ever mention the lack of regulation of supplements, dietary supplements. And so it's important to know how profitable it is because that's the incentive for people to constantly tell you that you need these supplements. So I think there's a place for supplements. I'm not saying that all supplements aren't necessary. There's certainly, I mean, there's wonderful supplements like prenatal supplements and, you know, vitamins and minerals that will directly like directly contribute to removing deficiencies.

1:51:03Right. Yeah. But a lot of the supplements that are coming out that are like flashy and exciting, there's not strong data or evidence to suggest that they're effective, effective at all, actually. And so, you know, people can say they'll run like, even some companies will do their own clinical trial, right? And that will be like the one trial. And it'll be this one study that they say like was super effective. And it's like nobody critiques that. But then like you're critiquing the pharmaceutical industry for running clinical trials. It's just it doesn't really make any sense. And so, you know, just being aware of that and being aware that a lot of supplements are just very expensive urine at the end of the day.

1:51:40Wow. Mariah sometimes you know I think you're going to hit it there Then you take it a step further Wow That was I love that That's a great way to think of it You've been around us for too long I really really like that Okay so this has been a nice Thank you This has been a great We'll end on urine No no no We always end on urine Always Golden rule Golden rule Always end Always On urine Always Sometimes Because you've given us You've given us like a perfect path to follow here Which is imperfect Which I think makes it perfect And it's like The most important ones for me were If someone's selling you something And they're telling you about your health Just be a little skeptical Right?

1:52:26Because if they're saying they've got the solution And they're going to get money from you Be a little bit skeptical If they start with fear first If they start with fear That's the other one You know what I mean? They're killing you You're killing your kids Are you hugging your children? You're killing them be skeptical alright another one that was very important was just try eat the foods if I heard you correctly it's like eat the foods the way they look essentially so it's like the beans are the beans and try and get the bread that is the least processed and try and get you know right portion sizes this was a good one as well the sugar is sugar right so you're not dodging it the sugar is sugar it just has a different accent there's the European sugar that was like sugar sugar and then this one was like sugar but it's all sugar okay and also if an expert is not surrounded by a community of other experts to take questions that they don't I like that if they block you and they don't answer you then you also know that's a shortcut I like this this is good this is really good also when you're growing strawberries in Utah yeah it might not work out for you I would also just say just to kind of like cap it the fundamentals of health we have really good strong data for them and they're pretty basic and pretty boring and so that doesn't play well to social media algorithms.

1:53:40And so social media algorithms really prioritize getting you confused and getting you to think there's a lot of like back and forth in the nutrition space or in the health space when really the fundamentals have been pretty consistent for decades. So we need to start a TikTok page where we do all of these things, but just like advertising like apples and stuff. Yeah, they should. We just make it edgy. Yeah, we just like, and we make edgy claims. Did you know they've been hiding apples from you? Do you know there's a secret ingredient and apples is good? And we just do this for everything. We could be the change that we want to see in the world.

1:54:17This is fantastic. Definitely. This has been really wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time with Two Idiots because I think there are so many in the world who feel like idiots in this space and then because of that they don't get to ask the questions that lead them to the answers and I think that's what's made you so popular online and now in other spaces as well. So thank you for taking the time with us. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Don't forget to throw carrots at your kid's head. That's another thing we learned from me.

1:54:47This was fun. Thank you so much. Thanks. Nice one. You really had a great time. You're good. Oh, thank you. This was so much fun. You guys are fun. Thank you.

1:55:02What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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