Dr. Steven Hassan: Are You In a Cult and Don't Even Know It?

33:01Like you. Not two to three books a week reading. Back then I was reading two to three books a week. I'm still reading a lot. In any case, I pick up a book about another cult leader named Gurdjieff. Okay. Have you ever heard of Gurdjieff? No, never heard of Gurdjieff. Turned out my next door neighbor's father was into Gurdjieff, so he had introduced me to this. So I was already primed a bit into mankind is asleep and we have to wake up. and there were these esoteric forces that we... Which, by the way, can I just interject here and say, which I often find a lot of these things are true though. So this is something that I'm picking up on already is many of the things that a cult might say to you are actually true.

33:47Do you get what I'm saying? I do think mankind is asleep in that way. And we see it in what we eat, how we live, how we work, how we consume. There is a level of like a sleep. Sleepwalking. yeah but i go like yeah no this is true we're not in touch with our bodies anymore we're not in tune with our minds we you know we we we some we act mindlessly we i could if someone said that to me walking down the street yeah yeah yeah you know how many times i see people walk into the street on their phone and then a car has to swivel i'm like yeah we are so they would have me on that line if they said mankind's asleep i'd be like but you're getting on another universal point that's really demanding, underlining, and with a red pencil, that the ideologies have truthful, important things in it.

34:37And they quote famous people who say really important things. So it's not just all BS. And that's also, as a therapist, that's what I try to do in helping my clients deconstruct? How did they get hooked? What were the pieces that hooked them? And the technique, I'm jumping ahead and I'll circle back to your earlier question, but the technique that's most effective is I empower my clients to understand Chinese communist brainwashing, my model, etc. And the technique is this simple. I ask people to go back to that critical earlier moment when they were getting recruited or they were falling in love with someone who was a malignant narcissist that was going to ruin their lives.

35:24If you knew then what you know now, what would you say and do differently?

35:32And I have them reprocess because they didn't know what they didn't know. But if I knew it was the Moonies, that this fat Korean billionaire was a pervert and involved with the Korean CIA and the Washington Times, et cetera, I would have said, you're not students, get the hell out of here. I'm calling security. But the point is it's a dissociative disorder. I was using my hands before. So the key is once you're out is deconstructing the programmed identity by going back to critical moments and rewiring using neuroplasticity and neurogenicence saying, if I knew then what I know now, here's how I would have handled it or could have handled it or should have handled it.

36:24Because then it empowers you going forward into the future to not get taken again with those techniques. Letting your brain train your body on how to react next time instead of freezing. And the key is the locus of control has to be in you, not looking outside to some authority figure or ideology to tell you what reality is or what the beliefs are. We'll be right back after this. You fell in love at First Crunch, and now the crispy chicken crunch wrap slider is back at Taco Bell. But with a twist, it's crispy all-white meat chicken nuggets inside a slider-sized crunch wrap. But now you can enjoy them with the kick of Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch.

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38:22You know, the story of recruitment sounds so familiar to me. When I was 14, we moved from the township to town. So we lived in this block of flats. My mom, my two other siblings. So we used to play soccer downstairs. So these friends of mine that I just made in the apartment block did not show up for soccer that day. Then there were two teenagers, like maybe in university age, who were outside our gate in the apartment because we played in the parking lot. And they kicked the ball, ball came over to them. They were on the other side of it and they just said, hey, how are you doing? And I said, I'm fine.

38:55They said, what are you doing? And I said, I'm playing soccer, but my friends are not here. They were like, if the gate would open, we'll play with you. And I was like, yeah, the gate won't open. It's fine. we can just talk from here. They kept showing up until they were familiar to me. A week later, they said, they spotted me coming back from school because I used to take the train. Yeah, they were targeting you. They said, you look like you've come from far because I was like, I was still going to a township school, living in town. So I took the train. So they said, you know what we could do?

39:19We're in university now. We could help you with homework if you want. Then I said, yeah, I'm fine with homework. They were like, trust me, we're good at math. And I hated math. We do all sorts of things. But if you want, we could help you. But now we're outside the gate just before I entered the apartment block. And I said, no, thank you. Two weeks went by. I saw them again, but now with my friends. So now this is important to mention. These were white kids. I'm black. Our apartment building was predominantly white. The two friends of mine, Fanny and Gerald. Now I'm seeing them interacting with them, thinking it's all normal.

39:50But the target here was me. So ultimately they said to me, we know what you should do. We could meet at the mall. The mall was not two blocks away from my house. It had restaurants. They said, we can meet at the mall, all of us. Fanny and Gerald did not go I ended up going We got to a restaurant There were two other people Three on Three to one ratio Yes there were two other people Is the ideal recruitment Yes you're not wrong There were two other people And there was a girl in there So it felt safer Started talking They said you could have Anything you want In the restaurant Anything you want I didn't know what I wanted Then they ordered this drink I'll never forget It's ingrained in my mind I've never had it ever since It's called Horlicks So it's almost like It's almost like but I think it's a Dutch drink it's like a hot chocolatey slash warm milky thing they had that came in a tall glassy mug with a long teaspoon and I was staring at this thing for long because I didn't know what was going on here and they were talking talking talking talking talking that weekend I ended up in a bus without telling my mom to a stadium and it was a church event yeah they were trying to recruit you I was there I had they had red t-shirts the organization The church was called Hope.

41:00It was like a red T-shirt with white writing on it on the chest. It was packed. I was in a stadium. Got back home that night. My mom was worried sick. I had to explain to her what really happened. She said, you're never seeing these people again. This will never happen again. And they kept on coming, and I never went out the gate again. So you listened to your mom? Yes, I was 15. Okay. You were a minor. So obviously, I'd seen a lot of these kind of things at the hospital, the ER, people who attempted suicide and all of that jazz. But it was a church cult. Yeah, exactly. And cults will tell young people, don't tell your parents.

41:33I was in the car with these people. I didn't know who they were. I get it. It happened to me. I went to a stadium. No, it happens a lot. And I was listening to you read your book about your childhood. Yeah. And it sounded like one of those churches that you went to. Like you said, there's different ones. Because remember, we use the word church for everything. Right. But it's like Anyone can say church Do you get what I'm saying? It's like the church of Anything can say church And then everyone has a specific idea What sticks out to me In this story is I go You were playing soccer? Yes Wow, my friend I was quite good at soccer Good for him Wow Good for him Now he hates it Is this why, Eugene?

42:16Have we found the source of why you hate Why you hate football so much? I was like, is this Have we gotten to the root of the trauma? moment i was like this is why my friend never wants to talk about soccer he's laughing very loud it's interesting i'm a mental health professional i can't help it i want to say something really important to today so there are a lot of people who claim to be doing christianity and evangelical christianity i really want to be clear the people who talk about following jesus love my kingdom is not of this world no one will know the time you know render unto caesar what that's not what's happening to tens of millions of americans and hundreds of millions around the world what's happening is a form of authoritarian cultism called new apostolic reformation is the title okay and what's different is these people who run these groups and megachurches they say i'm an apostle or i'm a prophet and i speak to god me okay and god told me so and so won the 2020 election and don't listen to satan because if you're if you're feeling or believing that it's because satan is in you but i can help cast out the demons yeah leave it up to me so look at the bite model so they so they basically become the intermediary between you and god they go you don't speak to god i speak to god yes and they have you cut off from family and friends that's another thing like i'm gonna go to this church they actually follow the bible okay instead of following a person who's doing these mind control techniques on them so that's how they also don't stand up to scrutiny is they remove you from your environment so that you have fewer people or fewer places that can make you doubt them absolutely so another critical point i want to cover that i think you'll really find important is the notion of phobia indoctrination.

44:21Phobia indoctrination. So let's take an elevator phobia. Someone is afraid to get in an elevator because they think they'll plummet to their death or they'll be trapped for eternity. Very reasonable phobia, I must say. So they create movies in their mind where this is not safe, it's dangerous. But the thing is, is we have fear to keep us safe from real danger. Yes. So if there's emergency breaks, so it can't fall to your death. If there's a phone, the worst that happens is you pee on yourself, but you'll get out and everything will be fine. But if you have this phobia of being in an elevator, you'll walk 40 flights of stairs, even though you're schvitzing like crazy, because you're that afraid of it.

45:17Understand, people in mind-controlled cults are like that. They can't imagine leaving the group and being happy and fulfilled or with God. Oh, okay. And here's another part of my story, since you were interested in how this happened to Steve. I was taken with a hundred other Moonies to see the Exorcist movie. In Greenwich Village, they rented a whole theater. We went up to hear Moon speak, and Moon said, God made the Exorcist. This movie is a prophecy of what will happen if you leave the Unification Church. Damn. And from that moment, I thought any doubt was a demon trying to possess my mind. So I was taught thought stopping.

46:02I was chanting. in order to keep the, and I didn't believe in demons. I was Jewish. I didn't believe in Satan either. Does it make it harder for you to trust your own doubts and instincts when you're surrounded by many seemingly reasonable people who agree with what you're being taught? That's another very important point we teach in social psychology is that we're social beings. And part of our brain calibrates off of who we identify with and our brains even entrain there's a there's there's a neuropsychological phenomenon that they're tracking now where you're playing music you're singing together your brains start to sink oh yeah yeah i mean this is a known phenomenon you have a whole bunch of people singing in church or whatever yeah it feels great that was when people say what was the best part of the moon is i said i love singing in a group oh yeah it's the reason um armies can march further together than they can remember when when when the first for sure large military like the way we think of militaries started marching in unison on a beat roman military yeah marching together on a beat with a drum and with like a vibe totally they went they went further and they got less tired yeah that because that thing it does something to us that we don't fully understand as humans.

47:27So one of the social psychology experiments I teach my clients and the public, there are three. Yeah. Ash Conformity Study, Milgram Obedience Study, and Zimbardo Prison Study. Okay. Any of those sound familiar? No, no. Ash was a social psychologist in the 50s. Very briefly, he did an experiment. He called it a social perception experiment. he had the person at the front of the room people in a ring they'd show a sample size line let's say three inches long three inch line they have three sample lines three four and five inches they had everybody in the room say which of the three was the same size as the sample line okay They did it correctly twice, and then all of the people who were in on the experiment started confidently giving the wrong answer, but the person in seat six was then like, a two -inch line is equal to a three-inch line?

48:35No, no, no, no. And they disagreed. But two-thirds start giving the wrong answer just to fit in to the social conformity. And no one gets up to measure. That's what I teach. It's like, if you really want to know, look for an objective way to measure what's going on. But you see now that for me taps into one of the greatest conundrums in society. And that is for most of society to function, we have to agree on things that aren't real or rather realities that are imagined so that we can function together, right? We have to trust. Like a traffic light is a society agreeing on something that is not real.

49:22We go, the red light stops us. It doesn't stop us, but we all agree that we will stop. It's the rule that we've agreed to. Yeah, but we all have to sort of imagine that the thing has happened or hasn't happened or, you know, the way people go quiet in certain spaces. We all agree to be quiet in the space. So it's a weird thing because it feels like we need to be able to do this as humans so that we can form societies. But now you're saying we also have to be careful of when we do it because then the society we form is a cult. So I believe cults exist from the ethical to the unethical. So I make a distinction because there are cult classic.

50:02I joke I'm in the TEDx cult because I've done four TEDx talks. And I love to watch them. I love to learn. I love to have fascinating input in my brain or scuba diving. I'm passionate about scuba diving. and there's it's great it's expensive i you know i have to buy equipment etc etc but it's it's my choice and nobody's forcing me or guilt tripping me that i'm a bad person how do you know that nobody's forcing your guilt tripping because i haven't i know my experience and that's where it comes down to trusting but i mean this i genuinely don't mean this facetiously i mean like many people who are in cults go no i'm not forced to be there their families will say i didn't think i is forced so that's what i mean so that's what i'm saying is like now it becomes this weird world where you're saying i love scuba diving now i don't think scuba diving is a cult but i'm saying we don't think we're in a cult when we're in a cult and we don't think we're not in a cult when we're not in a cult so then when are we in a cult and when are we not in a cult so now you're tapping into another very important point i knew you were going to ask some good questions so how did Steve get out of being a fanatical no first I want to know how Steve became leader I'm not forgetting that I need to know how I go from I don't want to be here to welcome to my haram I'm still stuck at wanting to meet the real the first leader there's so many stories how much time do we have?

51:32oh we've got time for this we've got time after this we're watching The Exorcist that was the first movie with subliminal images by the way right like a flash just like a flashes of the devil were put in by the filmmaker yeah just like a yeah because it actually can bypass our consciousness and we can be affected emotionally when did they introduce that law and i don't know if this is a myth nobody's but i know in enforced the law okay because i i remember reading once and again i should go and double check it now now that we have better search tools that they changed the rules about like ads specifically where an ad has to be longer than a certain period of time on screen.

52:15Otherwise, people don't know that they've seen the ad. Like you could just flash something and then people are like, hmm, I'm craving something now. We can talk for a week about what's happening online with techniques that are being used by state actors to hypnotically program the craziest of beliefs. But back to my story. So what happened in my case, interestingly, I think I got to the point in the story where my mom had asked me to talk to the rabbi. I'm sitting in my room with books and I pick up a book. It was a book about Gurdjieff. And my eyes go on one sentence and my brain interpreted that sentence as a message that I needed to go to the group because Gurdjieff was dead and following a living spiritual master was the way to go.

53:10And so I still, in my mind, I wasn't joining for my life, but I had this quandary. Is the Messiah maybe coming or isn't it? So I wanted to know more. And that's part of the appeal at the beginning, isn't to commit your life, but it's to learn more. Open your mind. Don't be closed-minded. And consider that there's a bigger path for you. And where I got hooked was I was selected by a top Japanese leader that Moon had brought over to the United States. Moon was very unhappy with the American movement because they weren't militant enough. So he brought this top Japanese guy over. And the Japanese guy checked me out and he made me one of his disciples.

53:56so through this guy I got to be in the room with Moon as we had discussions about infiltrating the U.S. government and how God wants a theocracy and thinks democracy is satanic I got to hear all of these things in 1974 but I was a true believer because I learned to shut down any doubts. And I believed that if I just followed what Moon was saying, because he was plugged into God, then the world would be saved. Ten generations of my ancestors on my mother's and father's side would get out of a terrible situation in the spirit world, which I didn't believe in before. But this is something that's always confused me.

54:41You're talking about the leaders are now in a room. i i've i've always wondered do cult leaders themselves believe in the cults yeah it's a great question but do they though it's a great question but do they though it's a great question i can't say definitively i'm a forensic expert but i can tell you that when you're surrounded only by yes people you tend to believe what you want to believe that becomes your cult so it becomes your reality but it doesn't mean you don't have doubts okay but now this introduces now so i'll say one more thing that's oh yeah yeah so a lot of people think cult leaders are just con artists and criminals yes that's why i'm asking the question did i i'm sorry no no no that's interrupted your question you didn't at all you answered no most Most cult leaders were in a cult themselves before.

55:40That's where they were trained. That's where they learned a lot of these techniques. So it's not, I'm a criminal, because most con artists and criminals, they want to get in, make the money, and get out. They don't want to create something for 20 years. They don't want structure. Followers. Yeah, it's a lot of responsibility. Uniform. But it turns out what I learned, because I was a whistleblower for a congressional subcommittee investigation in 1976, they were looking into Korean CIA activities in the United States. And the Moonies were a major part of the Korean CIA. And what I later came to understand, we're getting into politics.

56:29Is this okay? Yeah, definitely. What I understood was that because North Korea brainwashes, this is the height of the Cold War. North Korea and South Korea are separated. There were two unsuccessful coups in South Korea. The CIA thought we have to stabilize the regime. So we're going to help them set up a Korean CIA. And we're going to pick a proxy group to brainwash political dissonance. And they selected the Moonies. Thank you. So, the Moonies were used as a tool to brainwash South Koreans, and they used the Moonies to make arms to give to dictatorships around the world by passing congressional approval.

57:17This is insane. No, but I'm not making this up. I've written books on this. No, no, what I'm saying about insane is like I go, it's just crazy. Like the CIA, that's what my brain was thinking. I was just like, wait, what? Wait, what's happening here? Well, but remember MKUltra? Yeah. Okay, so the CIA was experimenting with LSD, hypnosis, electroshock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mind control. And after Jonestown, there was a special. I think ABC did a special. And the former head psychologist of the CIA said, yeah, we researched brainwashing, but we didn't find anything that worked, and we burned our records.

57:57Lies. Total lies. And to this day, no government has been honest with its citizens of, we know how to hack people's brains. We know how to recruit and indoctrinate people. But that's where we're at now is we have to educate everybody because America is being hacked. We're in a coup. It's really horrendous what's happening. And people need to understand this is a Cold War extension. We thought the Soviet Union collapsed, we won. And Putin and the other oligarchs who were KGB are like, we're taking down the US. You see, but this is what I mean about where we draw the distinctions. Because in my head, I'm going, I hear when there are specific cults.

58:51And then I understand what you're saying about the BITE, right? but but then i go it feels like and maybe i'm wrong but it feels like to me there are some overlaps between things that are cultish but not necessarily a cult sure and then there are things that are definitely cult but don't seem like a cult and so it leaves us in the space where you go is this a tool that cults use or is this a tool of cults that non-cults use oh it goes both ways Absolutely. So you're not necessarily saying that everyone is in a culture. Are you saying that they're in a culture? I can't figure it out. Well, we have culture.

59:31I mean, I grew up in the fear of the nuclear holocaust and fearing Russia and getting under my wooden desk at PS 173 in Queens because Russia may nuke us. And then I had my disillusionment with America and Vietnam when I thought it was a just war and I realized that they were lying from the whole time and just killing innocent people who wanted their country, etc. etc. But it was to fight communism. In any case, what I want to say is that we are either going to continue to evolve as a species with the goal of planetary survival, which means cooperation with other countries, or it's the authoritarians versus the rest of us who want rule of law and human rights and gay rights and women's rights and indigenous rights and minority religious rights.

1:00:33So I think that there's more of us than them, and we just need to understand correctly to diagnose the situation and approach it. Now, actually, to that question, though, this is something I've always struggled and grappled with but i i've gone should we try to immunize everybody from cult or cultish ideas and is that realistic or should we focus more on the environmental um circumstances that make it easier for somebody to be in that situation so going back going back to what you were saying you know you playing football you know in your in your little one of the things that stuck out to me was your friends weren't there that day yeah do you get what i'm saying so that becomes the first i think you're less likely to go talk to these people and to be taken away when my friends if your friends were there yeah so i just identify one point by myself as trevor i go like oh okay so if you have a robust community maybe it's less likely absolutely and then i and then i think of like economic situations or circumstance so yeah if you're in an environment where you know you're not hungry and you're you're not desperate and you're not broken you're not heartbroken you're Yeah, you were hot broken.

1:01:48You were alone in the cafeteria. I'm just picking up some of these traits. Horny as well. We can't skip that one. We can't skip horny. We can't skip horny. Not still, but. We can't skip horny. So you go. No, but people have needs. Yes, this is my point. But destructive groups are trying to say that's an evil impulse and you should suppress it. Right. And that's where we get into an overlap with groups that are giving informed consent. And groups that aren't. And aren't. Yeah. And so the ones that say it's unnatural to have sexual thoughts, it's like you don't understand human psychology. But now, but this is what I'm, so this is what I come back to.

1:02:31Like, let's say when we talk about it now, if we shift the lens into politics, you know, and people go, oh, what politics is doing, what authoritarian regimes are doing, et cetera. I've found very few instances I'm not a historian but when I read or when I watch a documentary or I found very few instances of authoritarian regimes that were able to start in good times do you get what I'm saying absolutely so that's another really important point that you're making and I when I did my doctoral dissertation I included a law professor's model called the social influence model, which he created for expert witnesses to explain to judges and juries how to evaluate social influence.

1:03:16And he said, you have to look at the influencee and their vulnerabilities, whether they were young, they were a minor, 15 years old, or they had been assaulted as a child or whatever. The influencer or the predator, the predatory organization, Was it a priest or was it a teacher or was it someone twice their age, et cetera? And this whole set of criteria around malignant narcissism, pimps and traffickers are also, and how they groom and recruit and indoctrinate people and what are the consequences. So it's a formula. When there's economic uncertainty, political turmoil, people are more confused than ever, and they want hope.

1:04:04And desperate. And so, trust me, I know more than the generals. I know more than the economists. You do a better Trump than me. Anyway. Don't get him started. I know more than any, trust me, but the thing is falling apart now, the illusion over the Epstein files. Yeah, no, that's created a whole, yes. But QAnon was a psyop. It was using alternate game technology to recruit people into believing that there was this conspiracy of traffickers. But wait, was it though? Because I, it's interesting. I don't know what the origins or not of QAnon are. Like, you know definitively? Because I remember seeing that some people said that QAnon was this, like, deep conspiracy or organization that was trying to control.

1:04:58And another group said QAnon was literally started by, like, trolls from 4chan and those pages. Well, it was started on 4chan. But I thought it was started as, like, a joke. They were like, I'm going to go out there into the real world. It was a joke initially. Okay, okay. Goof on the Trumpers. There were three people. I found this out from a source who knows because he was there. And he said then they realized they could make money selling merch. And then the Russians got involved. And we know Michael Flynn got involved. And we know this because a PhD who has a company that's able to analyze Twitter, we can track back to the first mentions of QAnon.

1:05:40and where we go on, we go all the hashtags. And you can literally find who are the trolls, who's recruiting who, et cetera. So we have forensic evidence. And I actually did a bite model analysis of QAnon. So how do people get indoctrinated into a cult that they're not physically a part of? Because that would defy what people believe a cult is then. Someone goes, I'm not in a cult. I'm at home minding my own business. I don't wear a uniform. This is how. I don't, yeah, but I can turn it off. Unlike you who's stuck in Tarrytown for the weekend. I turned it off and it fucking turned itself on by itself.

1:06:18I did turn it off. Unlike Tarrytown where you're like trapped, you can't go home. I can't be in a culture on my phone. I can just turn the thing off. Well, so ask people to turn off their phones for 24 hours. Are you crazy? You want me to miss out on my life? Sorry, guys. Sorry, sorry. Sorry. So here's where reality testing is so important. And you hit on a lot of key points. And I want to emphasize, I believe you should have a trust pod. You were talking about Eugene should, if he had friends, that they would have protected. Yeah, if they would be that thing. You have a trust pod where you watch each other's back and even take roles, who's going to be the contrarian.

1:07:01You know, if Trevor says, I want to go to this workshop in Maui with, you know, this or that. And Eugene goes, wait, dude, I checked this out. And this guy is a leech or he's a troll. Maui. Maui, I'll go. But in any case, reality testing. So coming back to my story, what helped Stephen get out of this cult? He was willing to die on command, kill on command. What happened? Steve fell asleep at the wheel of a van, drove into the back of a tractor trailer truck on the Baltimore Beltway at 80 miles an hour, was trapped for half an hour before I was rescued, needed surgery, but I was away from the cult for two weeks.

1:07:47Oh, an extenuating circumstance separated you from them. Sleeping, eating. Oh, you can call it divine intervention. My brain came back online because it wasn't constant. I was sleeping three to four hours a night in the cult. You switched off your phone for two weeks. I had no phone. This was 76. The proverbial phone. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. No, I literally, so that opened the door to me calling my sister, who is the only one in my family that didn't say I was brainwashed in a cult. She convinced me to visit and meet my nephew who had been born. I made her promise not to tell my parents because I was afraid of being deprogrammed.

1:08:24And she told my parents and they took my crutches away. and I had a situation where I was going to be deprogrammed and I was going to snap my father's neck while he was driving a car on the Long Island Expressway. And I thought, but I know God and I know Father and they can't get me out of doing God's will. So why don't I prove to them I'm not in the cult and I'm not brainwashed? So that's what my thought process was. And what helped me get out was learning what Chinese communist brainwashing methods were. What are they? So they used a book that was published in 1961. The little red book? Oh, another one.

1:09:09There was some red on the front cover, believe it or not. It's called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, A Study of Brainwashing in China by psychiatrist Robert J. Lifton, former Air Force psychiatrist. And he outlined eight criteria in chapter 22, how to evaluate whether environment does brainwashing. And every single one, the Moonies did. Do you remember any of them offhand? Of course. This is my work. Yes. But I was like, we're God, they're Satan. Communism is Satan. But we're doing the same brainwashing. This is where the dissonance, when my brain started kicking into gear. So, milieu control is control of the environment and communication.

1:09:57Okay. Sacred science, where you claim to have the ultimate science and moral vision for the thing. Loaded language, which are basically thought-terminating cliches, because words are the tools we use to think. Okay. So, if you can have buzzwords, fake news. changed you know don't think about what the content was yeah just label it fake news um what else uh demand for purity which is a perfectionism where they always keep raising the bar so you always are feeling shameful or insufficient okay so you always are trying harder and harder. The Cult of Confession, and that talks about information control, finding everything about your background.

1:10:51And if you were feeling guilty over something you did, they use it against you. They have people turning in each other if they break the rules. This is all outlined in my Byte model because I'd taken his model and made it more codified. one of the most important ones is called dispensing of existence and that says if you're in the cult you have a right to exist and if you leave then you're nothing you're a non-person you can be killed you can be lied to or whatever and it's lifton's description of cancel culture

1:11:30wow cancel people the right does it the left does it but you i say you know people should have the right to leave an environment if they're not happy or they find something better wow if it's healthy you let people go nope you you left us and you're the enemy yeah and so you're no longer human you're no longer you disagree on this you're a traitor yeah right so but you know But no, you see now, okay, now my brain then goes, everything is then a cult. That's what my brain says. Because I, okay, so let me tell you why. So remember, culture, cult comes from culture. So we have culture. We need culture.

1:12:12No, no, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm saying both on my behalf and someone who's listening to this. Yep. All right. I start with like, let's say a family. A family can say, we are the Johnsons. You are a Johnson. I am a Johnson And in the Johnson family We always have dinner At 7pm And at the Johnson household We go for walks On Saturdays You know what I mean And if you don't like it You can leave But if you leave This house Totally We will cut you off From the Johnsons And you are no longer A Johnson And you will never Walk into this house That's not a healthy family Okay but that's So if you have The influence continuum chart Folks please go Download it So you have it In front of you Yeah And you can understand this.

1:12:56Healthy parenting recognizes that each child is a unique being, and healthy parenting is to help that unique being grow up to adulthood to become their best self. It's developmentally appropriate. It's not micromanaging. It's not being too permissive. It's giving challenges. It's not constant praise. It's rewarding effort. And also not setting them up for failure. And not setting them up. To prove yourself right. Correct. That's an addiction of some parents. So we know models of excellence for healthy attachment. Like you need to keep babies off of screens for the first three years. This is well established neuroscientifically.

1:13:43Not even TV screens. No iPads, no phones. Because the baby's brain is - Malleable. Yes. Yes, and it's pruning neurons, and it needs to smell mommy and daddy and needs to feel our heart, hear our voice, reading books to the child, etc. This helps the child to feel loved and to feel safe and secure. Healthy attachment is the key to avoiding all personality disorders. Unhealthy families are authoritarian. they want the kids to be obedient they often do corporal punishment which is illegal in most civilized countries except here but beating children is traumatic to the brain it does not encourage children to think differently and act differently etc and and um and often kids who are gay if they're in a homophobic church or something or kicked out and then they're picked up by pimps or traffickers or somebody else on the street and more trauma happens so when when you say steve some families are authoritarian cults i'm like yes yeah no but that's what that's what i mean by everything is a you do you get what i'm saying so i'm saying i wasn't beaten as a child i was i i honestly i had a very that's why you went off on a weekend doing nonsense things you you see we're not Steve if you were in my house you would have hey we're not Steve where you going yeah yeah cult you'll see your cult but when you grow up with an authoritarian you're gonna be attracted to an authoritarian cult because it's familiar that's the thing the familiarity of control sorry as you speak I'm thinking about how a lot of commercials how a lot of TV shows there's a TV show where people who are frustrated with their own lives enter into a house meet up with strangers a reality TV reality TV show they're trapped into this house with cameras everywhere it's not reality there's a confessional booth where they go in and say their desires to a faceless person that speaks to only them at that time and can find a way to manipulate so that they can get what they want and the ultimate objective is to co-opt everyone outside the house which is the viewer to vote for them but there's temptation in the middle of it because you can't have sex inside the house but if you do make sure that you're not seen but the camera can see you because it's got night vision camera so that causes disorder inside the house but ultimately the most deceitful the one who plays the game the best will ultimately become the leader of the house once a week and will ultimately win the show the show is called Big Brother yeah wait are you I mean it's crazy that they're like just taking they should have to pay royalties to the cults well so the what we need is to celebrate people who have virtue and who are good people and not go first in the house and not malignant narcissists we should shame malignant narcissists who have hundreds of billions of dollars and they could be feeding the poor and they're pushing for for legislation so people don't have health care and they can't feed children.

1:17:06Shame on them. And seriously, we need to start getting out of the Hollywood and all of the social influence that this is okay to harm people and trick people and abuse people for entertainment. I was talking with one of your production people, Trevor, before, and I was just saying that there's so many cult documentaries and they're not educational. yeah what why the trauma point because they're not explaining what are the techniques that are being used in a way that the listener can understand and avoid and yeah and protect themselves and see how it could have happened to them it's like trauma point oh look how it's screwed up they allowed it to be branded with you know their crotch with no anesthesia that's not the message.

1:17:58I want people to, because I'm a survivor of a cult. I mean, that's, that's why I've devoted my life to this is because it's like, it never, I've entered into a world where people need to know this on a global scale, but we're going to lose our world. Like it's getting really crazier and crazier and it's not healthy. Don't press anything. We've got more What Now after this. The crispy chicken crunchwrap slider that you love is back at Taco Bell. And it's back with attitude. Because now you can enjoy the all-white meat chicken nuggets inside a slider-sized crunchwrap with Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch.

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1:20:00It's interesting when you say, when you talk about how people speak about themselves post-occult, A lot of it sounds similar to how people speak about themselves post an authoritarian regime. Yeah. When they interviewed people post Hitler and the Nazis, they asked many Germans and they're like, I didn't, you know, I just found myself being part of this. And I didn't know. And I really just found myself. And when they would talk to people in America who were part of, you know, whether it was the Ku Klux Klan or whether they go like, I just felt myself being swept up in a wave. And looking back, I can't believe that that's me.

1:20:39That's what a lot of people say. I can't believe South Africans who, you know what I mean? Why South Africans who are like, I can't believe I ever thought that. I just can't. It's this interesting world where they do not see themselves now. You separate themselves from the person. Yeah, from the person. And it feels like the same thing. It's like in the moment, someone can do anything. And then in hindsight go, I can't believe that that would have been me. I can't believe that. Right. But instead of walking away, I realized, because I have such a unique perspective, having been in the room where they talked about taking over the United States and destroying the rule of law and separation of church and state and everything, I feel an obligation to say, hello, here's how they're doing it.

1:21:26These are the techniques. mistakes we have to teach everyone how to protect themselves how to talk to people family and friends who've been radicalized what do you think a lot of people have blocked their family and friends because they can't talk about what's a mistake that families make when doing that you know because like you you said something interesting you said i spoke to my sister because she was the only one who didn't say to me that i was crazy and i was in a cult correct but i didn't speak to the rest of my family. So what can someone do right to have a conversation with someone in their family who they feel is in a cult?

1:22:00Perfect question. So I explained the real Steve and the Mooney Steve. The Mooney Steve was trained that if any attack happens against Moon or the doctor or the policy, defend, label it as evil, chant, pray, or whatever. So what do we learn from this, we say never attack with logic and facts the leader, the doctrine, or the policy of the group that the person is in because it will make them deeper. It will paint you as the enemy. That's rule number one. What works is finding out from the person another group that they think is a cult or is brainwashing. That is hilarious. And with MAGA, it's Chinese communist brainwashing or pimps and traffickers.

1:22:54That is hilarious. And explaining the bite model and how people get taken in and how they are programmed and these behaviors. And the critical technique that works is being warm, being respectful, being an active listener, and asking good questions, just like you do. You ask good questions that make people think. That's the goal. Not to persuade them to leave, to reality test for themselves. But if you understand the techniques that were used on them, like I was saying before, I ask people, go back, what was your first feeling and thought when that person invited you to the thing? I remember. It was odd or I had a feeling in my pit of my stomach there was something wrong.

1:23:46And now that you know more, how would you have liked to respond? I would have liked to have questioned it, or I would have liked to say, no way, Jose, or whatever. But the point is people want to be free. People don't like to be abused and lied to, but they need a face-saving way to exit. So if they understand how pimps recruit women to be sex slaves or labor trafficking victims if they understand the methods and you ask them so what's your understanding of how intelligent people can be controlled that way and give them the tools and ask them to go back and reflect because a lot of people hated trump and then they got converted who converted them they watched the movie they went to a rally they had a friend at work like get them to remember what they thought they were hearing and those those i think you know i've seen a lot of people i mean i've obviously read about your book and and you know what people have said and you were welcomed into many spaces when you were writing just about cults right then you every tv show in america yeah since 1976.

1:25:0319 minutes, nightline, date line, everything. Yeah, you were everywhere, basically. And then you wrote a book entitled The Cult of Trump. For Simon and Schuster. Yeah, and then all of a sudden you were sort of - Crickets. Yeah. Now, we all know, doesn't matter who you are, you don't even, this is not like a political thing. You just know many news organizations, many TV stations, they've just been very afraid to be on the wrong side of Trump. Companies as well. this is not like a forget the politics side they've even said look we're not trying to we're not trying to get on the wrong side of trump but i want to know what the pushback was that you got on trump and i also want to know why you why you so confidently could say that it is the cult of trump when someone who supports trump would go like no hey i'm voting for um you know my country i'm voting for the border i'm i'm this is politics yeah but also this is politics why are you making this about about a cult this has nothing to do with a cult so i invite you to read the cult of trump because it still is valid everything's been validated when i was asked by my book agent and simon and when did you write it by the way this was 20 it came out in 2019 i wrote it in 2019 the muller investigation was going on um i started because i grew up in new york knowing that donald trump was a malignant narcissist because i knew eric from's work about hitler i knew about cults so i knew he had a cult of personality for sure and the people who worked for him were in that cult but what i understood when i started researching was there are actual authoritarians cults that comprise the cult of trump that bring millions of their followers to follow trump and like sub organizations essentially for example i mentioned new apostolic reformation churches and megachurches.

1:26:58And there is 30 to 40 million Americans in those that are saying that Trump won the 2020 election. And Trump is the vessel of God. I've seen some of them saying - Yeah, he's a King Cyrus figure, et cetera. So I made a distinction between people who just always voted Republican, just voting Republican the first time. But the second time, things have gotten connected with the billionaire techies. Hacking Facebook and algorithms and state-level manipulation of people's perceptions and minds. It's not just this information. So I talk about a cult called The Family that recruited Democrats and Republicans into it.

1:27:48They were doing the National Prayer Breakfast. Jeffrey Charlotte wrote two New York Times bestselling books and did a Netflix series on this political cult. I wrote about Opus Dei, which was a Catholic cult that was saying the Pope was satanic. They're the ones who put in the Federalist Society Supreme Court justices. They're the ones behind the Heritage Foundation Project 2025, Opus Dei. and I've helped many people get out of that group. So I talk about different cults. Falun Gong does the Epoch Times, Scientology, the Mormons. Nobody wants to talk about the Mormons as an authoritarian group, but talk to former leaders of the Mormons and they'll tell you what it's like.

1:28:38Pyramid structure, B-I-T-E. And you can go on my sub stack and go through Some of the criteria fit, some of them don't, depending on where you are in the pyramid or if you're a fringe member. but um so the the point is also that i named russia as one of the puppet masters because i came to understand that when trump was first in moscow in 1987 and came back he took out a full page ad in the new york times saying nato should be disbanded he did it back then 87 oh I didn't know that. Yeah. And he had no political thing before that and who paid for that. And I interviewed Craig Unger, who has written numerous books.

1:29:30He's a very respected author. I interviewed him and a former KGB official for his book, American Compromise. And the former KGB official, Joel, no kidding. I had a two-part podcast. He said, I was much higher up in the KGB than Vladimir was. It was standard operating procedure to take Western businessmen and co-opt them for our purposes. And then he named the place in New York City. And the Russians have been getting revenge on the United States ever since. and that's what people are Russia hoax Russia hoax it's like read the Mueller report there were Russians named yeah but you see this is this is where I now my brain come on let's go buddy no but it's no I'm teasing bring it on I spent seven years like just in a world in inundated by this stuff and the thing I started realizing was the fingers that could be pointed in terms of how people saw the world in like the Trump world.

1:30:41Man, I also saw people who were anti-Trump. There's like an anti-Trump cult as well then, if that's the case. There is. Where some people go, every anti-Trump. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I go, but okay, this has nothing. No, no, no. You see, he did this and this is. I'm like, okay, but what are you basing this on? Genuinely, what are you basing this on? You're basing this on - Great question. One person who showed you one video who made you think, and I know you hate him, but you should also not now just become a default correct anti anything correct because you might now be indoctrinated you see what you just said no you're absolutely right and that's what i say when i talk to any person in any group is like change my mind i'm really i'll listen to whatever proof you have right i'll show you my proof you show me your proof and let's if if it's legitimate it will stand up to scrutiny someone might ask this question they might ask and I'd love to hear your response and someone might say okay but if if Trump is a cult then how come his people are angry with him about the Epstein files and Marjorie Taylor Greene is turned against him and what why is that happening then what would your what would your response be I'll tell you in one minute but I first want to just say two points yeah forgive me no you're the so if you if you're Russia and you want to do psychological warfare on the United States you want polarization and you want division so you're not just influencing the right, you're influencing the left.

1:32:12Oh completely yes so authoritarian manipulation is happening on both extremes to create confusion so that's one point. Let me interrupt you on that point to add to it by the way same team here we care about humanity Yeah, but in and around, not just the start of the war in Ukraine, etc. Microsoft did this whole thing where they analyzed a lot of where the information was coming from, like the farms and everything. And that is something that I wish more people understood to your point. Fight if you want to fight. Disagree if you want to disagree. But also know what is prompting your disagreement.

1:32:51and they did find genuinely that a lot of the posts that were coming out online both pro-Trump anti-Trump pro-democrat anti-democrat no we're coming from the same Russian farms yeah yeah full-on troll farms yeah full-on troll farms and and then I mean I'll always say with a little asterisk I go I always find it funny though that like America says well the Russian then I'm like but also you guys I mean you're the professionals of the it's just a funny you know a world of every country doing cia developed all these tools that are being used on us yeah no big and this is where we have to understand complex systems yes yes we invented roadside bombs for the afghans to use on the russians and then we went into afghanistan they were used on americans like we were developing all of these technologies etc and it's being used on us.

1:33:47But it's a complex system. It genuinely is. So it's moving. So the other point I want to make is something called fourth and fifth generation psychological warfare. I wrote about this in The Cult of Trump. Fourth generation warfare was first written down as a thing in the 80s by a guy, a military strategist, American, military strategist named William Lind. And it's about attacking experts, science, and democratic institutions to demoralize a society so you can influence and put in a dictatorship or whatever. Yeah. Replace one authority figure with another. Right. But so because human beings, we can't know everything.

1:34:31We depend on experts who spent their lives studying. We depend on institutions, most importantly. And we want to trust the experts. But we've seen a systematic assault on experts and on science. There's good science and there's bullshit science. Good science doesn't say we have the truth. It says we have an hypothesis and we test. And we have a community of people who test the test to make sure that it really is what it says. And if we have a better hypothesis, we get rid of the old one and we go with the new one. That's progress. That's what we should be having. So fourth generation cyclists, William Lynn met with Trump in the White House, connected with Michael Flynn, who would do it on the enemies of the United States before he got turned.

1:35:21And he's gotten involved with the Christian right that thinks that we should have a white Christian country and that everyone else is inferior, etc. That's a real thing. The guy who did The Apprentice, Mark Burnett, is head of Seven Mountain Dominionism, the media part, who made Trump's image as a successful businessman on that show. Yeah, when he was completely failing. But he's a Christian dominionist. So we need to understand there are specific actors and positions of influence. And this has been going on for decades. This is not something that happened overnight. But all of this wouldn't have been easy to achieve if the status quo had done a better job of making sure that Americans weren't in a place where their rents, and mortgages were out of control, where food became unaffordable, where schooling and healthcare was, do you get what I'm saying?

1:36:28So I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm just saying, we also, I think we should be careful to just like, sort of blame cults, but in this system, not understand that people are a lot less amenable to these ideas if the people in power actually address their needs and concerns. Do you know what I mean? We wanna be angry with people for becoming a certain way, but we don't want to be angry with why the situation existed for them to be even open to be becoming that way. Desperation and isolation, right? Absolutely. We want to be solution focused. You know, we can analyze what went wrong. Yeah, because otherwise, otherwise we go Trump bad or we go that thing bad or, yeah, but then you don't, you don't like go, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:37:12What's bad is people feeling like they just have to vote to break a system because the system is not caring for them. when we had, you know, mayor of New York now, Zoran Mamdani, when we had him on the show. I saw. Yeah, where he goes, the people don't, they don't, even him is a response in that way to that. People are going, look, we don't care about all these old school Democrats. There's no one else in this race. We're going to vote for this guy. And then people are like, he's going to break New York. And they're like, it's better he breaks it because the fixed New York was not working for most people in New York.

1:37:43Do you get what I'm saying? So it's this world where you're trying to find a balance between, as you're saying, analyzing the thing that's doing something wrong. Right. And then, because it's interesting seeing, by the way, Marjorie Taylor Greene, I find that particularly interesting. Yeah, you asked me about her and I can tell you my - Because of what you're saying, some of it speaks to exactly what you're talking about. Marjorie Taylor Greene has fully been with Trump from the beginning. Yes. Fully, fully, fully. Then she basically said, hey man, this guy's deviating off the path. We said America first.

1:38:17We said no Epstein. We said, what is happening here? And then now she's been cast as the traitor. And we will never talk to her. And she's out on her own. It's interesting how that ties into what you're saying. Yeah, well, that's part of what you realize when you're in an authoritarian group that you think the other members are your friends. but you see what happens if somebody questions it or doesn't go along and how badly they're treated people get that message yeah and they're like they're they're they'll they'll only be my friend if i obey and if i conform and do exactly what i'm told look um

1:39:04I don't trust Marjorie Taylor Greene until she says, because she's saying I'm not in a cult, I'm not in a cult. I'm a cult expert. QAnon was a cult. I wrote a whole bite model analysis. I called it a psy-op. I analyzed why it's an online cult, but it was a mind control cult. Until she gets what I'm talking about, until she says, Trump did win, excuse me, Biden did win the 2020 election. And anyone who says that Trump won it is in the cult. Until she says that, I don't trust anything she says. You think that she's just sort of making a splinter cult? Yeah. Is that common in cults, by the way? Yes.

1:39:50Because she doesn't understand brainwashing and mind control. And there are those colleagues Zemine who thinks that she's co-opted by Russia. Damn. The Russians. The Russians. I would like to go get co-opted by Russia. It sounds like a fun vibe. Criminal, criminal, you know, oligarchs, man. You guys are haters, man. You're too nice. You guys are just haters out in these streets. You choose ice cream. So I have another quick story. Do we have time for another story? Yeah, go for it. We got time for one more story. Let's go. 1993, I'm invited to Moscow. oh so the union fell and they said every cult from the united states is coming into mother russia and we want to psychiatrists and psychologists we want to understand what are cults and what is what what is this all about like they were they were experiencing cults coming in yeah okay okay so the soviet union collapse yes and so open the world was and and the mental health people are like, what's going on here with all of these Western groups that are showing up?

1:40:56So they brought me over. They didn't pay me. I paid my way and went to Moscow and I taught my work. So I'm teaching about Chinese communist brainwashing and my model. And they're like, Dr. Hassan, don't you understand you're describing the whole system of pedagogy of the Soviet Union? and I said uh-huh and they said don't you understand we would put dissidents into psychiatric facilities because they were criticizing the regime and I'm like uh-huh and they're like oh so you are counseling us that is so insane and I said if if the shoe fits and then beyond those psychiatrists wait but how did they respond to that were they were they like no they were they were understanding the model because the model is it does it doesn't have any fluff thing so so the model is agnostic yeah the model you can you're basically saying to everyone hey i'm not saying anything about your world here's a model i'm just going to put in front of you and then you just find yourself there and here's the influence here's healthy okay okay and here's unhealthy you decide for yourself that's my approach is you determine.

1:42:12You do reality. But you just don't use it. Just now you're not helping me with couches anymore. I know how this goes. I have a disciple here in my midst. You know, all of this is interesting to me, especially when you think of where our country comes from and how you find that people who grew up in a generation during apartheid sometimes long for those days when things don't work out the way they should, according to them. They'll always say things were better during that time. And I'm not talking about the oppressed. I'm talking about the oppressed. No, and slavery in the United States. Yes. That was psychological brainwashing done to not only the slaves, but everyone else.

1:42:49Yes, why? Apply the bite model and it's like, duh, of course. And you think of how many people still long for those days when they talk about efficiency of anything, public transport, the roads, housing, education. And this is my biggest pet peeve. And I've spoken to you about it with many of our other guests. and I've said I hate how arts and culture have been slowly been eroded out of the schooling system when you grew up you had a mother that was doing this and you were so important you were writing poetry you were reading three books you were riding a bicycle all of that is being eradicated and I see these young adults that have tried so hard to get an education and a job well before you would know this you it would have to be an interrogation or an a communist country or an authoritarian country that has video footage of people saying how they feel good or bad right now it's volunteer to everyone with these people with people on social media so now they're co-opting themselves they're recruiting themselves for their next employer and showing their desperation and the dead end that some systems that they've taken have taken them and they're going to AI to do creativity instead of themselves going inside so it's like we're living in this weird dystopia I think if someone was in a cryogenic coffin and wakes up now 40 years later, they'd be shocked to see what's happening now.

1:44:10People are literally doing their own depositions in the comfort of their own homes with their own devices and sending them out for the world to see. And the brain adapts to whatever environment's happening. And if you spend 10 to 12 hours on digital devices, it's going to rewire your brain. Attention spans are shrinking. Creativity is shrinking. It is exactly the same debate that when I was growing up, our parents would say we're spending too much time watching television. This time, this generation is spending too much time making television. Damn. No, you're right. And I'm guilty. I watch TV, but I also read a lot of books.

1:44:47Yeah, I was the same. I was a bit of a mix of both, you know? No, technology is both a positive that's fantastic and can be used negatively. And we have to be wise. We have to be wise. We have to really realize how precious it is to have freedom. For ex-members, we know what it's like to live in an authoritarian state, even though I didn't grow up in China or Russia. I know what you mean, yeah. But China wants to make us like them, all this surveillance crap with Palantir and cameras everywhere. Yeah, but ironically now, you can't really separate a lot of how China works with how the U.S. is trying to work.

1:45:27That's what I'm saying. This is not, it's, we need to keep the vision of what humanity and what, you know, human life's about. When people are on their deathbed, they're not going, damn, I wish I had another million dollars. They're like, I should have spent more time with my kids. Or I always wanted to go kayaking. Or I always wanted to learn scuba diving or whatever. And it's like, we need to come back to. This is a very unique, precious opportunity. to be alive. And we have an amazing, I'm so grateful to meet you because I've been listening to you for years. And I'm like, damn, Trevor wants me to be on.

1:46:07I'm coming. Oh, you're very kind. Thank you. No, I mean it because this has been a really interesting conversation because you're getting at key things. Yeah. And we'll do a part two at some point because there's so much more that we can say. See, this is my kind of guy. You know, we speak about this all the time. We need more people who agree to a part. I love it. Part two. You're coming back for a part two. Part two is the way to go. No, there's a lot to share. We're definitely going to do. You know what? This was amazing, yeah? Actually, what's interesting, what you've just mentioned, and you've made me realize it, I'm very, people who know me, they know that I'm very much against technology.

1:46:43I think there's a word that you used to describe me. Luddite. Luddite. I know the term. I try not to know as much about technology because I still like the human experience. I'd like us to throw information to each other, not Google if it's true or not. And we can discuss. I'd like some other things to be done physically. I try to spend as much time as I can in the outdoors and go on side quests and find new adventures. Nature, man. And things to learn. And that's what I wish for many people is to just try things out. Try as much as you can to create your own memories instead of viewing other people's memories.

1:47:16Hey, bro. You know? And build social relationships, you know? No, that's a big one. Create your own memories and not explore everyone else's. And just appreciate the human experience. Every time we meet someone new, it's like opening another book and going, wow, tell me your story. You know, like tell me your journey. That's what you started with me. But it's fascinating. I'm a therapist, so I get to hear incredible stories and help people in their way. But I'm helping them to help themselves. So I'm not making myself, you follow me and I'll tell you how to get fixed. I'm teaching them the techniques and strategies that worked for me and that has worked with other clients.

1:47:57And there's reason to be hopeful and grateful, but we need to have strategy. We need to correctly diagnose the problem, and we need to understand who's the bad actors, and we need to have a plan where we can bring out the best in each other to sustain this earth. We're on one planet. You know, I'll tell you now, Dr. Hassan, I didn't know you before I met you. now I've met you you've pulled me in man I'm in your cult I'm in sign me up let's go to Terrytown for the weekend call me Steve that's Van and let's roll and so I say freedom of mind is what I decided to name my company not Stephen Hassan Foundation freedom of mind I say it's your mind and only you should control it it's like own it you can make mistakes but learn Don't make the same mistake twice.

1:48:56But don't be paralyzed and not try new things. Be open to other perspectives. That's another key. Blind faith, the cure is perspective. Yeah. To look at it from other points of view. That's why looking at Chinese communist brainwashing or pimps and traffickers is a new lens. Right. It gives you an opportunity to take a step back and say, oh, maybe I'm looking at this in like a limited way. And if I just move myself around it, maybe I'll see a different side. That's what Rodin always wanted, the sculptor, the French sculptor. What made him so special, they said, was when you would look at his art, his sculptures, depending on where you looked at it from, you had a very different feeling of what was happening.

1:49:45So the same sculpture could look like a pained person, a strong person, a pensive person. and he did that on purpose because he wanted you to feel he always said from every angle i've made a different sculpture yeah and so that's true thinking of it yeah thinking of it through that lens and that's all you have to ask yourself in your world basically is the system you're in does it allow you to look at the sculpture from a different angle if it doesn't should probably go and look at this website download bite and then see what happens and the influence continuum One last thing, I know we're going over, but beware certainty.

1:50:25Beware anyone who says 100 % it's this. Because if you have a lens thinking your beliefs are certain, the world is flat. Whatever information, you're only doing confirmation bias to confirm your worldview. If you start with this, I have beliefs, but they could be wrong and there may be better perspectives, then the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. And it makes you more curious. It makes you more engaged to learn and get other people's perspectives. So you want to be this. You don't want to be this. So less Eskimo classes, more Apple Vision Pros. Not Apple Vision Pros. Dude, you're the Luddite.

1:51:12You just flipped it. You clearly have never used an Apple Vision Pro. I was like, Eugene, do you know what an Apple Vision Pro is? I think it's the one that lets you see out. No, virtual reality. Really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you for joining us. You have chutzpah for having me on. Oh, no. What do you mean? You have chutzpah for joining us. Thank you so much. We had a great time with you. Pleasure to meet you. Take care. This was fun. Thank you. You're amazing. Thank you, my man. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM.

1:51:46The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random Other Stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now?

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